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"AP equal or less than 4"

Greater than 4. But we know what you meant. This, combined with something to actually shoot back at scat bikes (which I see you addressed), would actually make them not LOLed off the table by scatterbikes.

"1) Personal teleporter - something like warp spiders' jump pack, but one model removes by any doubles - doubles of 1 are too nobrain. "

This is a cool theme, but if they are all packing assault cannons, I will totally have them ride a pod and be happy about it.

Martel732 wrote:
"Ah and now Assault cannons are bad too? "

Two of them are. Five of them start to get something done. But are still inferior to scatterbikes. Just like two scatterlasers are pretty weak, but Eldar put them everywhere and mass them up and then they become nightmarish. It's all about massing firepower. Which your proposed squad is not doing, and so it's not getting things done.

Except I just posted math-hammer in which a squad of 5 drops down within 6" and eliminates 3, forcing a LD test on a points-equivalent number of Bikes. Sure, the Scatterbikes can move away and then they can do an eldar jetbike move, but they're still going to be in range the next turn wherein they'll lose another 2 minimum and require another LD test.

"2 wounds, assault cannons for everyone ( even though they are lame ass), and ability to deep strike with no penalty while being able to move shoot and potentially assault. "

Still can't read because I only proposed one of those things.

I'm inferencing a "dream Terminator" based off of you saying that 1 Wound is too fragile, and Deep Strike isn't safe enough.

"P.S. Wind rider jet bikes are only 1 wound"

And they are very good at never getting shot at. And if they do, most Imperial weapons that reach 36" are very ineffectual.

Hard to avoid getting shot at when Terminators deep strike within 6", no?

" for self loathing BA players"

I loathe many things, but I don't blame myself for GW's stupidity.

Neat, then actually make yourself useful and contribute something instead of just saying "sucks", "lame ass", and other boring non-constructive critique.

"Except I just posted math-hammer in which a squad of 5 drops down within 6" and eliminates 3, forcing a LD test on a points-equivalent number of Bikes. Sure, the Scatterbikes can move away and then they can do an eldar jetbike move, but they're still going to be in range the next turn wherein they'll lose another 2 minimum and require another LD test. "

Unacceptably little damage for suiciding a unit of that cost. Five assault cannons would do so much better. And Wraithknights would have to pretend to pay attention. As would Dreadknights and things like that. MCs in general would have to pretend to care about that squad.

That is my contribution. 7th ed is a dakka edition. Make them have some real dakka, and suddenly they don't need too many other changes.

"I'm inferencing a "dream Terminator" based off of you saying that 1 Wound is too fragile, and Deep Strike isn't safe enough. "

I just want them to squeeze off some meaningful shots before they get owned the next turn. Which they will.

"Hard to avoid getting shot at when Terminators deep strike within 6", no? "

There are so many reasons you may not want to do this, or are unable to do this. Given your mathhammer above, I'd never use this squad as the return on investment is too poor.

Martel732 wrote:
"Except I just posted math-hammer in which a squad of 5 drops down within 6" and eliminates 3, forcing a LD test on a points-equivalent number of Bikes. Sure, the Scatterbikes can move away and then they can do an eldar jetbike move, but they're still going to be in range the next turn wherein they'll lose another 2 minimum and require another LD test. "

Unacceptably little damage for suiciding a unit of that cost. Five assault cannons would do so much better. And Wraithknights would have to pretend to pay attention. As would Dreadknights and things like that. MCs in general would have to pretend to care about that squad.

That is my contribution. 7th ed is a dakka edition. Make them have some real dakka, and suddenly they don't need too many other changes.

My fix is an attempt to work with the Terminator box set as it currently is. If Games Workshop changes the Terminator box set in the future to allow all Assault cannons, I'm for it. Unfortunately, that's not the case right now as it is with the Scatterlaser bikes.

And let's be real here: Even 5 Terminators for 200 points with 5 Assault Cannons would barely Tickle a wraithknight. So let's try and figure something out here, shall we?

"I'm inferencing a "dream Terminator" based off of you saying that 1 Wound is too fragile, and Deep Strike isn't safe enough. "

I just want them to squeeze off some meaningful shots before they get owned the next turn. Which they will.

I'm now seeing an avenue that could work here:

Terminators, as I have suggested them already, with the following wargear alterations:

Up to 2 Terminators may replace their Terminator Storm Bolter one of the following:
Heavy Flamer: Free
Assault Cannon: 10 points

Up to 2 Terminators that didn't take the above option may take a Terminator Cyclone Missile Launcher: 10 points

Terminator Cyclone Missile Launcher - may choose one of the following modes
Range 48"
Frag: Str4 AP5 Assault 2, Blast, Pinning, Concussive
Krak: Str8 AP3 Assault 2, Concussive, Strikedown
Barrage: StrD AP2 Assault 1, Blast, One Use Only (if Barrage is used, CML can't be used for rest of the game)

So in total the cost would be 215 for 2 Assault Cannons and 2 Cyclones, which should spit out enough firepower to actually make a Wraithknight scared.

There are so many reasons you may not want to do this, or are unable to do this. Given your mathhammer above, I'd never use this squad as the return on investment is too poor.

So then the whole Assault portion of Skyhammer is completely useless, or am I wrong based off your own assertion?

There's a big difference between bringing down two assault squads that immediately assault and two dev squads with relentless grav cannons and some terminators with tickle guns. If the target bikers are hanging out next to say some Wraithguard, a Wraithknight or even a serpent of fire dragons, you may not want to just warp on in.


Five assault cannons at BS 4 gets me 3.333 rends, which is damage the Wraithknight at least would feel.

Your proposed squad would generate 1.333 rends, and 1.333 krak missile wounds. That seems like less firepower to me against Wraithknights.

The other thing is that we could give terminators grav cannons as well.

Note that both of our terminator squads are outperformed by the alpha strike of a common grav biker squad, which generates 4 AP 2 wounds vs a Wraithknight, and does even better vs Riptide and DK. The grav biker squad doesn't need special transport and has a threat radius of 30", just like the assault cannon terminators.

Martel732 wrote:
There's a big difference between bringing down two assault squads that immediately assault and two dev squads with relentless grav cannons and some terminators with tickle guns. If the target bikers are hanging out next to say some Wraithguard, a Wraithknight or even a serpent of fire dragons, you may not want to just warp on in.

Five assault cannons at BS 4 gets me 3.333 rends, which is damage the Wraithknight at least would feel.

Your proposed squad would generate 1.333 rends, and 1.333 krak missile wounds. That seems like less firepower to me against Wraithknights.

5 assault cannons at BS4 is 20 shots, which goes to 13.333 hits. That's really only about 2.22 rends, so my suggestion is better plus you get to consider the fact that the suggested Terminator CML with Barrage gives you 2 potential D shots which you can use in a tight situation.

The other thing is that we could give terminators grav cannons as well.

I think that, had Terminators received a new kit, they would have received them. Alas we are stuck with the same weapons that they've had since Rogue Trader.

Note that both of our terminator squads are outperformed by the alpha strike of a common grav biker squad, which generates 4 AP 2 wounds vs a Wraithknight, and does even better vs Riptide and DK. The grav biker squad doesn't need special transport and has a threat radius of 30", just like the assault cannon terminators.

That's more due to the power of Grav than anything, but I definitely see your point.

Oh yeah, for some reason I thought that the 5 dudes had 30 shots. Well that's a math error for the ages. So that gives my squad 2.222 rends vs your squad's 0.88 rends and 1.333 krak missile wounds. That's really close.

"That's more due to the power of Grav than anything, but I definitely see your point."

Yeah, the power of grav that lets marines without silly formations pretend they can win.

Created some dataslate for terminators as I see them.

Martel732 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marik Law wrote:
I don't know why they don't just give Terminators a 4+ invulnerable save. In 2nd they pretty much had a 2+/3++ save and were absolute beasts (they were also far more expensive points-wise, you'd be lucky to fit five into most games).

Because they would still suck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come on people. The new reality is scatbikes, decurions, D-scythes and skyhammer grav dev squads. The only hope terminators have is to be able to kill back at range. All assault cannons, all the time. Feth storm bolters; they have always sucked.

Seems to me like you don't want them being balanced, you want them being "broken". Last I checked, those Grav Weapons and D-Weapons (and the like) are going to chew through those Terminators with Toughness 5, the bonus Toughness isn't going to make a difference.

Some of my suggestions:
* Increase Terminator's invulnerable save to 4+.
* Get rid of downsides for assaulting.
* Make it so a model in Terminator armour ignores the Unwieldy special rule (excluding those provided by Chainfists or Thunder Hammers).
* Reduce cost of ranged weapon options.
* Allow standard squad to take combi-weapons.

So Eldar can have troops with 36" ROF 4 S6 weapons that move 12", but marines can't have elites with 24" ROF 4 S6 weapons that move 6"? Really? Really?

The fix is more dakka. Anything else is lipstick on a pig. I never said anything about T5.

BTW, in 2nd loyalist terminators sucked out loud. Why? Their weapon systems sucked. Chaos terminators were amazeballs. Why? Good weapons!

I agree terminators need a buff. But buffing toughness and giving them fnp will make deathwing, nurgle, paladin terminators a right pain in the arse to deal with

storm bolters upgraded to salvo ?

more heavy weapon options?

more attacks for cc terminators

I'm trying to understand here. Are you upset that terminators can't catch and kill eldar jetbikes in assault or that terminators don't shoot like tau?

 Inkubas wrote:
I'm trying to understand here. Are you upset that terminators can't catch and kill eldar jetbikes in assault or that terminators don't shoot like tau?

I'm upset that they really can't do anything. They can't shoot, and they can't get into assault. With anything, not just jetbikes. And if you let terminators not mounted in Land Raiders assault you, you are not a good player imo.

I love terminators (have over 3000 points worth of terminator models) and can appreciate the frustration of them being underwhelming at times, but I'm curious though what do you normally play against and what do you normally use your terminators for?

I haven't used terminators since 5th ed. So I don't use them ever. I usually play against power lists from all codices.

" the frustration of them being underwhelming at times"

That is the most euphemistic way to say "ass terrible" I've heard in a while.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Gavik Dross wrote:
Eh HOW I can see, maybeeee with a huge grain of salt T5.
What I really think termies could use is to be dropped by 10 or 15 points and gives power swords standard with options for fists and hammers.

You think Terminators should be 20 points with Power Swords? Seriously? No, really?

A wind rider with a scatter laser costs 27pts! Moves 12" Shoots 36" Str6! each rider can carry that special gun!
A 25pt Terminator doesnt sound so unreasonable!

So I wonder if this guy is going to tell me how to use terminators.

Martel732 wrote:
So I wonder if this guy is going to tell me how to use terminators.

On my say I've used them recently is in 30k

Polux- deep strike no scatter
10 catapractii 2+ 4++
Primus medicae for fnp

Done.

Can't remeber last time I see them vanilla because they suck to bad

So this is a bit of a blend of some of the suggestions I read through. Assaulty Termies are more or less fine. Increase the invo save from termy armor to 4+. Re roll armor saves from weapons with ap4 or worse. Stick to one special weapon per 5 models in shooty termys, but give them access to special issue ammo. Different ammo than what sternguard has access to. Maybe similar vengeance and ignores cover types (but with storm bolter stats of course) but then maybe a 12 inch 3-4 shot rapid fire mode? Definitely no long range ammo type like the sternguard has access to however. This is to highlight the termys focus on close quarter fighting, matching their fluff a bit better imho.

They need a considerable boost in survivability.

1) Incrrease invul save to 4++. Thisis far more in line with the capabilities of the suit ( unfortunately it still leaves them susceptability to massed small arms fire). If save were increased to 4++ then storm shields need to be buffed to keep them viable -perhaps conferring hammer of wrath or FNP, in addition to 3++

2) Terminator armour is 3+ 5++ but allows 2 dice to be rolled for saves, both invulnerable and otherwise.

Their mobilty and close combat potential is about where it should be.

Firepower is underwhelming but that is mainly down to the lacklustre stats of storm bolters. Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF.

" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

Martel732 wrote:
" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

3 shots at 12-18" would be cool.

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

3 shots at 12-18" would be cool.

No, not really. It's still just S4. These models cost more than a scatterbike.

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

3 shots at 12-18" would be cool.

No, not really. It's still just S4. These models cost more than a scatterbike.

We are not going to put scatter lasers on terminators.

please can we move on from the power creep?

 Phiasco II wrote:
So this is a bit of a blend of some of the suggestions I read through. Assaulty Termies are more or less fine. Increase the invo save from termy armor to 4+. Re roll armor saves from weapons with ap4 or worse. Stick to one special weapon per 5 models in shooty termys, but give them access to special issue ammo. Different ammo than what sternguard has access to. Maybe similar vengeance and ignores cover types (but with storm bolter stats of course) but then maybe a 12 inch 3-4 shot rapid fire mode? Definitely no long range ammo type like the sternguard has access to however. This is to highlight the termys focus on close quarter fighting, matching their fluff a bit better imho.

I really like these suggestions. I would have them pick one special ammo type before the game though, no switching on the fly like sternguard, which would keep them a bit unique.

I like rerolling against AP5 and 6 attacks. I think AP4 weapons need a little help, and they aren't that common so I would be willing to seem them negate the reroll.

I'd buff the cyclone and give it split-fire and skyfire. If they can take 2 heavies in a 5 man unit, than that is 4 St 8 AP 3 skyfire shots, which is enough to make almost anything in the game jink.

Give the sergeant a long-range auspex that he can use in addition to his storm bolter. 36" range, otherwise as normal for the auspex.

Make them BS and WS 5. They are the very best veterans, combining the best of both the vanguard and sternguard.

They should be able to forgo movement to get beamed back into ongoing reserves and deepstrike down again like skyleap for swooping hawks.

I'd like to see a heavy flamer guy be able to shoot into close combat instead of making attacks with his fist.

All those buffs would be expensive though, Probably push them up to 55 ppm

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

3 shots at 12-18" would be cool.

No, not really. It's still just S4. These models cost more than a scatterbike.

We are not going to put scatter lasers on terminators.

please can we move on from the power creep?

Maybe we should. Fair's fair. The game IS power creep. I can't believe people think this is so crazy and then voluntarily line up against armies that have the very thing you consider crazy. If a model can't run with the big dogs, it rides the pine. Most of these proposals keep terminators on the shelf as they will still contribute nothing then die like little overcosted losers.

"All those buffs would be expensive though, Probably push them up to 55 ppm"

That makes them unusable again, though.

Martel732 wrote:


Maybe we should. Fair's fair. The game IS power creep. I can't believe people think this is so crazy and then voluntarily line up against armies that have the very thing you consider crazy. If a model can't run with the big dogs, it rides the pine. Most of these proposals keep terminators on the shelf as they will still contribute nothing then die like little overcosted losers.

"All those buffs would be expensive though, Probably push them up to 55 ppm"

That makes them unusable again, though.

I feel like a Lets just Nerf Eldar thread would be in order.

But within the context of Space marine and the what they bring within them selves, what would need to change to make terminators and all there options all relativity viable. (after which we could probably use that as a base line for what the other factions should be around)

"I feel like a Lets just Nerf Eldar thread would be in order. "

The Eldar players won't accept it.. The Eldar, Necrons and skyhammer exist. People need to accept this. Units need to be balanced against the new 7th ed reality, not the reality we wish existed.

You and I and everyone else are running into the problem of making a T4 W1 model truly "elite" in a game where AP 2 and S6+ is flying everywhere. It's not possible. You need Wraith level durability to live up to terminator fluff, and it's easier to upgun terminators than make all those changes. Giving terminators a little extra durability is meaningless when their offensive output is so terrible.

Even with Sternguard ammo, the actual Sternguard are still better because they get more shots/pt. You simply can't charge this much for a slow model with a S4 gun. You can't.

Martel732 wrote:
" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

Well I I would look at it that every race's elites has areas they excel in. With Eldar it's speed and firepower. The forte of terminators shouldn't be their firepower, but unmatched durability. As long as their firepower is adequate I'm happy enough. 3 shots is a considerable upgrade from 2. so I reckon that addresses the issue.

 thegreatchimp wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" Make SB's assault 3. Reduce range or increase points as needed, but they need a higher ROF."

Still only S4. Useless on a model this expensive.

Well I I would look at it that every race's elites has areas they excel in. With Eldar it's speed and firepower. The forte of terminators shouldn't be their firepower, but unmatched durability. As long as their firepower is adequate I'm happy enough. 3 shots is a considerable upgrade from 2. so I reckon that addresses the issue.

But their durability is awful for the cost.