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 Jihadin wrote:
Southern Cross

Stars and Bars

Don't care what you read, child. Thats what we called it.

 Jihadin wrote:
Southern Cross

I always think of these:




And this one (yes, a remake, but my time in South Florida makes me partial to Buffet over CSN).

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't care what you read, child. Thats what we called it.

I guess claiming to be 'older' doesn't make you actually right, so you attempt condescending trolling. I am perfectly comfortable in both my age and not perpetuating ignorance when facts are available.

nkelsch wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Don't care what you read, child. Thats what we called it.

I guess claiming to be 'older' doesn't make you actually right, so you attempt condescending trolling. I am perfectly comfortable in both my age and not perpetuating ignorance when facts are available.

Nomenclature is how its used. We used "Dixie" "Stars and Bars" "Rebel Flag" and "Southern Cross" interchangeably for the same flag. Don't care what others did or say it means. They can off and die.

...


OK, RULE #1 - EVERYONE.

My bad. sorry.

Slightly OT, but I was just thinking about the title. The removal of the "stars and bars" from the state capital and other locations is not really "purging history". It was put there to protest the civil rights movement, and had nothing to do with history. Now if people were trying to get the actual flag of the confederacy removed, it would be different, but this is removing something that was put there for the purpose of being racist, with no historical context or value. The title should really be something along the lines of "The purge of history begins".

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Slightly OT, but I was just thinking about the title. The removal of the "stars and bars" from the state capital and other locations is not really "purging history". It was put there to protest the civil rights movement, and had nothing to do with history. Now if people were trying to get the actual flag of the confederacy removed, it would be different, but this is removing something that was put there for the purpose of being racist, with no historical context or value. The title should really be something along the lines of "The purge of history begins".

Well, this has gone beyond that though. Such as Amazon removing anything to do with it. Apple removing games that has that flag in it. Ft. Sumter removing their flag.

Meh, they shouldn't be using it in the first place. They should be using the flag of the confederacy. Like, what would actually be flown. But maybe it's just me.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Meh, they shouldn't be using it in the first place. They should be using the flag of the confederacy. Like, what would actually be flown. But maybe it's just me.

Unless it's like, a Civil War game or book or other thing set during the Civil War in which the battle flag might reasonably appear (this is in reference to Amazon and Apple dropping certain products).

Maybe. Although wasn't it only one regiment who used it? Eh, whatever.

In Berlin there's an open park dedicated to Marx and Engels, with a statue of the two men at its centre. I actually found it kind of eerie, there was a quiet kind of power in the new meaning the statues had assumed. The East German government had built it to honour the two men who founded the system their government was based on, but now it stood as a quiet, empty statement on a really bad ideology that had finally passed in to history*.

The answer, then, is not to go chasing after symbols of the Confederacy, but to build knowledge of what the Confederacy really was, and so those symbols can't help but be understood in their true context. I hope one day that people who visit the memorial to Forrest can't help but reflect on the complex history that a war criminal and life long racist was once glorified, simply because a region of America had to pretend otherwise for their own pride.






*Well, passed in to history as far as Europe is concerned.

Isn't the West Coast Choppers logo an Iron Cross? I used to see that t-shirt on everybody.

It's not a confederate symbol though, I think it has something to do with the military. You see them on lots of old military graves, just without the battle flag.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Maybe. Although wasn't it only one regiment who used it? Eh, whatever.

No, it was used by way more than one regiment. It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 feeder wrote:
Isn't the West Coast Choppers logo an Iron Cross? I used to see that t-shirt on everybody.

Yes. And the Bundeswehr (the modern German military) still uses a version of the Iron Cross as their symbol.

 feeder wrote:
Isn't the West Coast Choppers logo an Iron Cross? I used to see that t-shirt on everybody.

Yes. I would guess it was chosen because it works well with the name, and because variations of the Iron Cross have historically been very popular with bikers.

The Iron Cross goes all the way back to 1813
I knew it had some serious history behind it beyond the Third Reich. Did not know it went back to Napoleonic Wars

 Hordini wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Maybe. Although wasn't it only one regiment who used it? Eh, whatever.

No, it was used by way more than one regiment. It was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.

So more than a regiment then.

Honestly this is more do to with me being annoyed with people getting their history wrong than anything else. That being said, it's pretty dumb of apple etc taking things down because it has it in it. It's like banning huckleberry finn, or to kill q mockingbird because it has the "n-word" in it.

If it is historically accurate, there is pretty much never a problem. It's like complaining about sexism in a movie wet in the 50's.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I should probably clarify, I mean sexist characters, not the movie it'self being sexist.

You know, while I side with people who oppose removing historic symbols on this issue, I'm left suspicious of many of them because they've been so quiet when the historic myths go the other way. How many people who defend Forrest's memorial have mentioned spent any time at all talking about the awful things he did?

It just seems a very one way street - revel in Confederate myths, but if anything is done to push the opposing political slant on to history, then suddenly they're all for the sanctity of the historic record.

One can respect their military accomplishments.
Hardly anyone view Guderain, Rommel, Manstein, etc etc etc as pure Nazi's

 CptJake wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
Southern Cross

I always think of these:




And this one (yes, a remake, but my time in South Florida makes me partial to Buffet over CSN).

It always reminds me that the Fist of the North Star must never war with the Southern Cross.

Weird how some bits of pop culture adhere to your brain and never go away.

 Jihadin wrote:
One can respect their military accomplishments.
Hardly anyone view Guderain, Rommel, Manstein, etc etc etc as pure Nazi's

Sure. But I think pretty much anyone can see the difference between adoration given to Lee and that given to Guderian.

And then when you look at Forrest, who's relatively low rank and behaviour at Fort Pillow makes his memorial a bit like a memorial to someone like Erich von dem Bach, who oversaw the destruction of Warsaw following the uprising.

And then you just have to pay a little bit of attention to notice that so many people who talk about their military skill... don't seem to spend much time talking about the nasty stuff. That's the one sided nature again - if you want history then tell the whole history.

 feeder wrote:
Isn't the West Coast Choppers logo an Iron Cross? I used to see that t-shirt on everybody.

It was used in the middle ages before little Adolf used that.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:

 feeder wrote:
Isn't the West Coast Choppers logo an Iron Cross? I used to see that t-shirt on everybody.

It was used in the middle ages before little Adolf used that.

The iron cross was used in Germany during first world war too. Just look at many of their Aircraft or even their tanks etc. In other words it was always part of the country before and during (and after) Hitler was ruling.

As a military award, the Iron Cross goes back to the Napoleonic Wars, but the symbol itself is from the 13th century, and is probably most famous at that time as the symbol of the Teutonic Knights (Guess what they did for a living, cause Adolf would have totally fit in )

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Slightly OT, but I was just thinking about the title. The removal of the "stars and bars" from the state capital and other locations is not really "purging history". It was put there to protest the civil rights movement, and had nothing to do with history. Now if people were trying to get the actual flag of the confederacy removed, it would be different, but this is removing something that was put there for the purpose of being racist, with no historical context or value. The title should really be something along the lines of "The purge of history begins".

In many circumstances this is very true.

 sebster wrote:

The answer, then, is not to go chasing after symbols of the Confederacy, but to build knowledge of what the Confederacy really was, and so those symbols can't help but be understood in their true context. I hope one day that people who visit the memorial to Forrest can't help but reflect on the complex history that a war criminal and life long racist was once glorified, simply because a region of America had to pretend otherwise for their own pride.

Good point Sebs.

Too bad Southern Apologists will NEVER let that happen.

 Easy E wrote:

 sebster wrote:

The answer, then, is not to go chasing after symbols of the Confederacy, but to build knowledge of what the Confederacy really was, and so those symbols can't help but be understood in their true context. I hope one day that people who visit the memorial to Forrest can't help but reflect on the complex history that a war criminal and life long racist was once glorified, simply because a region of America had to pretend otherwise for their own pride.

Good point Sebs.

Too bad Southern Apologists will NEVER let that happen.

Not when Yankees are telling us what to do.

 Frazzled wrote:

 Easy E wrote:

 sebster wrote:

The answer, then, is not to go chasing after symbols of the Confederacy, but to build knowledge of what the Confederacy really was, and so those symbols can't help but be understood in their true context. I hope one day that people who visit the memorial to Forrest can't help but reflect on the complex history that a war criminal and life long racist was once glorified, simply because a region of America had to pretend otherwise for their own pride.

Good point Sebs.

Too bad Southern Apologists will NEVER let that happen.

Not when Yankees are telling us what to do.

But the yankees have nothing to do with it.

The governor of SC, a republican no less, called a vote and it was a 36-3 vote in the Senate, and the flag came down.

Memphis voted to move Forrest, and his descendants agreed, so he's being moved.

The south is cleaning up their image and I a yankee agree with what they are doing, but I can't tell them what to do.