Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Backfire wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.

Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.

Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?

The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it cannot splitfire.

Martel732 wrote:


" its rather fragile due to self-inflicted wounds "

This just does not happen as often as advertise. I've played against these things at least 30 times and rarely has this been a factor.

" its crap in CC."

Still ignores armor. Still has 2+ armor. Doesn't sound too bad to me.

Classic martel to respond to a part of a post and ignore thr parts that undermines his own post before he even wrote it.



Ordinance, the hammerhead cantbsplit fire either.
The entire argumentvuf hammerhead us better than Russ is pointless though,they are both irrelevant in any competitive setting.
The fact the Russ is mostly bsd means not the hammer is good, even if the hammer really was clearly better (and its rather situational who is better as hammer's skimmet advantages are good,but nearly never matter,and gun wise neither is very effective.)

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.

Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.

Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?

The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and it cannot splitfire.

They're both bad. Chill out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"Classic martel to respond to a part of a post and ignore thr parts that undermines his own post before he even wrote it. "

Please elaborate?

You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.

An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.

I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.

Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.

Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?

The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.

Oh, and it cannot splitfire.

Hammerhead has same practical speed - it can only shoot snap shots if it moves over 6", and 6" move is too short to get over most terrain pieces (even 12" move often is). Hammerhead also cannot splitfire. Have you actually played Hammerhead under current codex? Because it seems that your opinion is based on 4th edition Tau codex, where Hammerhead indeed was as you describe.

Btw, there is nothing to stop you from adding Hammerhead to your army. It's available as an ally to almost anyone. Weird thing: nobody ever does.
Wonder why?

 BoomWolf wrote:
You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.

An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.

I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.

I'm quite aware of the stupidity of the HBC. It needs to be fixed. My opponents frequently NOVA to double out units with FNP. It doesn't seem to make the Riptides significantly more fragile.

Martel732 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.

An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.

I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.

I'm quite aware of the stupidity of the HBC. It needs to be fixed. My opponents frequently NOVA to double out units with FNP. It doesn't seem to make the Riptides significantly more fragile.

Hmmm I do not know anything that a NOVA IA will double out that an overcharged IA does not already double out...Maybe you are only referring to an overcharged IA which has a Gets Hot.

Tautastic wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
You said that in real games it doesn't hurt itself and is nearly never caught,ignoring the fact I said the reason for these is the ion accelerator giving too much firepower at range without the need to ever NOVA.

An HBC riptide not only hurts itself alot wit NOVA that must go to the gun so he can't buff speed or defenses, it also comes much closer and can't quite afford.

I'm quite sure we had this discussion about five times now though. So I'm not going to put effort into this time.

I'm quite aware of the stupidity of the HBC. It needs to be fixed. My opponents frequently NOVA to double out units with FNP. It doesn't seem to make the Riptides significantly more fragile.

Hmmm I do not know anything that a NOVA IA will double out that an overcharged IA does not already double out...Maybe you are only referring to an overcharged IA which has a Gets Hot.

Probably; I trust that they are rolling the right dice. I've never read the Tau codex.

You should. Plenty of the 6th bandwagon types play by completely wrong rules. Like 80% of the tau hate I encountered came from things played not remotely like the actual rules (single marker to remove cover, markers triggering for all units, automatic NOVA, etc.)

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.

Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.

Why BS4? It was BS5 in the 0old codex, and complained. Otherwise I agree, but I want the decrease Ld force pinning test too.

Backfire wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Backfire wrote:
I want Tau vehicles to be relevant again. And no, that does not mean they have to be cheaper, I want them to be better (see my sig). Give them back all the goodies they had under the old Codex and nerf the Riptide so that it's not five times more durable than a Hammerhead.

AV13/12/10 Skimmers with Railguns not enough? Quit your whining and tryout a Leman Russ. You lose your guns versatility, your speed and ability to ignore terrain for 1 more point of front and rear armour.

LOL. Railgun totally blows under current rules, the guns 'versatility' is wasted because secondary weapons are anti-infantry only and the tank no longer has Target lock. Without Multi-tracker Hammerhead can't effectively move and shoot so it has no speed advantage over other tanks, and limited to 6" move is usually can't get over terrain pieces, meaning that even skimmer ability is largely meaningless.

Yes, most Leman Russ variants indeed are superior to Hammerhead.

Hahahahhahahaha NO. Do you even PLAY the game?

The Leman Russ is far slower, cant fly over things is either under gunned or over specialised and quite frankly sucks. I would gladly bring a Hammerhead any day of the week.

Oh, and it cannot splitfire.

Hammerhead has same practical speed - it can only shoot snap shots if it moves over 6", and 6" move is too short to get over most terrain pieces (even 12" move often is). Hammerhead also cannot splitfire. Have you actually played Hammerhead under current codex? Because it seems that your opinion is based on 4th edition Tau codex, where Hammerhead indeed was as you describe.

Btw, there is nothing to stop you from adding Hammerhead to your army. It's available as an ally to almost anyone. Weird thing: nobody ever does.
Wonder why?

But the Hammerhaed can move faster to get out of trouble, avoid being assaulted and it can still shoot if it does so - snap shots or not.

And I would bring them as allies..... But my wallet wont let me

It matters little that it can run away when it's not doing much even when standing still and shooting freely.

For the record I think the HH is "better" but that's not saying much.

If the HH is bad then the Leman Rus is terrible.

 Gamgee wrote:
For the record I think the HH is "better" but that's not saying much.

If the HH is bad then the Leman Rus is terrible.

Its this terrible glancing mechanic that GW insist on having.

"Oh look, I bounced some ineffective shots off your armour and your tank stopped working"

My friend who has never beat me insist the Leman Rus tank is good and doesn't need a price reduction or buff. Despite only winning one game in 15 matches and all he does is spam them and their variants.

-_-

Yea kid your going to tell me what's good? I think not.

The glance mechanic is no less realistic than the wounds one.

What do I want in the next codex... well there is a long list of both real stuff and sarcastic suggestions that fit the power creep stupidity of this edition... but if I had to pick a single wish then it would be to make all crisis suits BS4 base. I think it is incredibly stupid that a firewarrior with 8 years of experience piloting an advanced space capable mech suit filled to the brim with snsors and tech is only as good at shooting as a guardsman who with a few weeks of basic training out and maybe a battle or two firing a rifle with a simple iron sight.

And before some ignorant poster decides to bring up "but the tau are nearsighted?!?!" throwaway conjecture comment from a NON-rules art book, that tiny decrease in visual acuity that may or may not exist is negated by the advanced tech. Hell, it's largely negated by simply wearing glasses for christ's sake let alone advanced nightvision/radar/HUD. I realize that making them BS4 base doesn't sell models whereas making them reliant on markerlights/marker drones does but it's just flat out stupid that the race known for being specialized in shooting is worse than the majority of armies out there (both when marines are included and excluded).

 warboss wrote:
What do I want in the next codex... well there is a long list of both real stuff and sarcastic suggestions that fit the power creep stupidity of this edition... but if I had to pick a single wish then it would be to make all crisis suits BS4 base. I think it is incredibly stupid that a firewarrior with 8 years of experience piloting an advanced space capable mech suit filled to the brim with snsors and tech is only as good at shooting as a guardsman who with a few weeks of basic training out and maybe a battle or two firing a rifle with a simple iron sight.

And before some ignorant poster decides to bring up "but the tau are nearsighted?!?!" throwaway conjecture comment from a NON-rules art book, that tiny decrease in visual acuity that may or may not exist is negated by the advanced tech. Hell, it's largely negated by simply wearing glasses for christ's sake let alone advanced nightvision/radar/HUD. I realize that making them BS4 base doesn't sell models whereas making them reliant on markerlights/marker drones does but it's just flat out stupid that the race known for being specialized in shooting is worse than the majority of armies out there (both when marines are included and excluded).

Maybe it's harder to aim a big cannon than a little rifle?

Practically speaking, you want BS4 + markerlights? Tau are _designed around_ their BS3.

And a new codex is when you change those nonsensical designs.

commander dante wrote:

SGTPozy wrote:
Riptide counters:
Force
Psychic Shriek
Tarpits
Imperial Knights
Dreadknights
Snipers
Poison
Rad carbines
Plasma
Close combat
D weapons
Warp Spiders


There are more but that's all I'll do now and guest what? IoM has access to all except for the last...

A riptide can counter D weapons
It can just pin the d6+6 wounds on a drone

Brilliant! Indeed they can and then fail morale and run off the table!

Does Terrify cause the scary test -2 ld still?

If you manage to drop deep strike close enough without getting interwipped and or infiltrate that could be funny.

-Stealth Suits to Troop choice. They can stay the same price but make them troops.

-It pains me to say it but...marker lights at -1 cover

-no gets hot in HBC, other than that riptides stay the same

-stealth suit HQ thats not shadowsun or make stealth/shrouded a unique upgrade for commanders.

-Hammer heads become single shot D weapons. Can be taken in squadrons upto 3.

-Broadisdes become Heavy 1 TL S10 Ap1. When they changed them to S8 Knights and Wraithknights (as they are now) didnt exist, things have changed and S10 is now really needed again in tau armies.

- Kroot good at CC, more variations of krrot (or a kroot/merc codex that BB with Tau)

- Vespid...

- Paycher race added to tau (maybe in Tau mercs codex, see Kroot)


- Path finders gain stealth, can take all special weapon upgrades, markerlights as an optional upgrade made troops

- Devil Fish cheaper and FA/dedicated transport

- Tank squadrons (Skyray, HH)

- Flyers that dont suck

- Tau fortifications (feth the fluff, tau would total build a fortification if necessary

-relentless on broadsides

-Sniper drones an optional upgrade to firewarrior squads or stand alone unit

-Shield and marker drones on tanks

- New Superheavy suit thats not forgeworld with D weapons!

- more formations and a Tau decruion(s)

Other than that our codex is perfect as it is...I dont want much.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The biggest changes to the Tau book I would make are increasing the Riptide's base cost to 200 with the IA costing 50 points, and changing markerlights to a modifier for denying cover rather than straight ignores cover. I'd also probably cap the ballistic skill boost to BS4.

Everything else would be buffs. Make vespid and the heavy/sniper drones useful, give kroot straight up stealth rather than [forests], take some points off the devilfish, and more.

so you want a Riptide with IA with a max BS of 4 (not including the cost of bringing the markerlights themselves) to be 40 points cheaper than a GC with 2 D weapons, ala Wraithknight...your not serious

They need a very well earned nerf.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?

*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....

Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?

*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....

Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.

I'm so glad someone finally understands. I don't play against Tau either. Sadly, if I do, I HAVE to bring dual Wraithknight just to compete with the cheese.
^Everything you've listed is absolutely accurate.

No, it's not accurate at all. The only really OP thing in the whole book is the Riptide. And that's because it's practically immortal.

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

So Eldar can steamroll them with even more ease, I guess?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Farseer Uruvion wrote:
They need a very well earned nerf.

Why? They don't need it as much as eldar (*cough cough*), SM, DA, 'crons, or daemon factory. Tau are about average compared to most 'dexes. I can't see having the same power level of 'dar or SM/DA, there's nothing but MT I'd say that they have a near 100% chance of a win, assuming average dice rolls. Some nerfs? Sure, -1 cover per ML seems fine, riptide's IA could use a points increase for sure, but really, what else is so OP that it puts them up there with 'dar and SM?

*snorts*
I dont even bother challenging Tau players anymore, no matter what I do or what I bring its dead. Infantry blob? Gunned down. Tanks? Rapetide and Hammerhead take care of those. Flyerspam? Everything has Skyfire! Deepstrike? Oh dear, Interceptor alert. Camo gear and hide in cover? Markerlights, markerlights for everyone! Transport assault? Why hello again mr Rapetide! Infantry assault? Turn 5 and those 4 or 5 survivors finally enter CC.....

Yeah, the Tau need a nerf like a fish needs water. IE they need a MASSIVE nerf.

So Tau need a nerf because they can tailor better than your army can?

Tau were OP back in 6th edition when first published which was a nice change from 8 years of being crap... but the codexes released in 7th since have largely surpassed them. If you systematically can't beat Tau with current eldar or "I get lots of stuff for free because I bought it" space marines, necrons, and dark angels, you're the problem... not the codex.