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I like my Imperial Knights. No allies means I'm just putting nothing but five superheavies on the table. That sounds so much fairer and easier to handle than one or two knights allied to space marines, right?

I agree it's the transport stealing shenanigans that's the only unpalatable bit. Why are the Flesh Tearers sending out packs of drop pods to everyone anyways? Sharing transports isn't so bad, but I concur they should've left a Dedicated Transport grouping that can't ever be taken empty.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Again, the issue isn't allowing people to ride in each others' transports.

It's the fact that you can purchase dedicated transports empty.
Period. End of story.

If you couldn't buy Wave Serpents, Drop Pods, or Raiders/Venoms empty--we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yeah, I've never had the need to use up a Fast Attack slot with a transport. Any unit in any of my armies can take an appropriate dedicated transport as part of their options. Using them as part of ally shenanigans is the only use I can think of for them, aside from maybe shuttling around a single IC.

The tanks that double as transports (Land Raiders and Battlewagons in my case) are a different story.

There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.

There is: The driver.

 Kanluwen wrote:


It's the fact that you can purchase dedicated transports empty.
Period. End of story.

If you couldn't buy Wave Serpents, Drop Pods, or Raiders/Venoms empty--we wouldn't be having this discussion.

This is my biggest problem with allies. Get rid of Dedicated Transport swapping and I'm 100% on board.

<----- Really likes allies, even though I bitch about Super Heavies and Fliers in normal 40k games.

I'm not 100% grognard!

 krodarklorr wrote:
Hello all,

My name is Kro Darklorr. I would like your attention for one moment.

Are you tired of seeing Skitarii hijacking Blood Angel drop pods? How do they even get those, anyway? What about Ulramarine Centurions having a hang sesh with Draigo? Don't they know he's busy in the Warp?

What about seeing the Webway open up and having Raider gunboats surge out and drop off....Wraithguard? My word!

I'm here to tell you that, if elected, I will fight for the Solo rights of each army out there! No longer will we have to sit idly by and watch these travesties occur, with nothing we can do about it! I will go out of my way to ensure each army is fielded the way it was meant to be fielded. To make sure they use the abilities and resources they were meant to use. No longer will I sit and watch as 5 Flying Hive Tyrants (Why the Hive Mind would dedicate so many resources to having that many semi-sentient commanders on the battlefield is beyond me) fly across the battlefield as their....Imperial Knight??....ally stomps through the enemies faces! No longer will the Dark Eldar race be misused into forced taxi slavery! No longer will Dante let countless Drop pods disappear from under his noses as the Adeptus Mechanicus does what they will with them!

I will fight for equal treatment for all armies! And with your vote, we can make it happen!

Vote for Kro Darklorr, and together, we'll abolish the Ally Matrix!


Solo 2016!

I'd be ok with ditching allies altogether.

That said, I'm also ok with keeping them but enforcing much more restrictions to remove some of the more ridiculous shennanigans. Essentially bumping everything "up" a level. Battle Brothers operate as Allies of Convenience do now. Allies of Convenience oeprate as Desperate Allies, Desperate Allies operate as CtA, CtA=Only in Apocalypse games, not possible in normal games. I think, in most cases, that would also make more sense fluffwise.

I play Tyranids, and the pentyrant/knight example offended me. Tyranids do well without allies, and proudly stand solo against every other codex. It is not our fault that everyone else needs a cane to get moving.

Seriously though, the allies matrix isn't such a big deal. Just roll with the times, and accept that certain issues crop up from time to time, and plan for eventualities.

Allies is a new thing that wasn't there when I played and is, broadly speaking, something I think is a good idea, but as far as I can gather, it has some significant problems in execution. I had Eldar and Dark Eldar when I stopped playing in '09 and my own made up fluff (since I'm not on board with the Dark Eldar schtick) was that the Dark Eldar were a scouting/raiding element for my armies craftworld. Having allies so I could play the two together would have been cool and fluffy for me, and it would have had nothing to do with trying to exploit to transport my wraithguard.

Sadly there are plenty of people who look at the rules not to field fluff, but to exploit and try to find broken combos. And anyone can easily say "I like these models and it fits my fluff so that is why I play it" when the reality is they like how those particular models can exploit the rules and be real uber and they don't give a rip about fluff or the feel of the game.

Would have liked the poll to give an option along the lines of "Alies are a good idea that needs tweaks, but I don't know quite how to fix it". That would be my answer. People have given plenty of examples of how allies are a good, fluffy rule. Sadly there are plenty of counter examples of the opposite. Fixing transport abouse sounds like a good start.

I enjoy the Allies matrix as is. If anything, I'd add a special rule to Chaos Marines that would allow them to take an IG allied detachment as Battle Brothers.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
It is not our fault that everyone else needs a cane to get moving.

Didn't your dex need 2x DLC dataslates to be playable?

 GreyHamster wrote:
I like my Imperial Knights. No allies means I'm just putting nothing but five superheavies on the table. That sounds so much fairer and easier to handle than one or two knights allied to space marines, right?

I agree it's the transport stealing shenanigans that's the only unpalatable bit. Why are the Flesh Tearers sending out packs of drop pods to everyone anyways? Sharing transports isn't so bad, but I concur they should've left a Dedicated Transport grouping that can't ever be taken empty.

This. I am also in favor of continuing to have allies, as it allows you to game with a bigger range of miniatures (i.e. more combinations). The transport sharing thing is the main problem, and it would be so easy to fix. Big tournaments should probably house rule something about this.
Another problem, however, is allowing Come the Apocalypse allies. It allows certain combos that just shouldn't happen. I played a game recently against an opponent who had 3 Riptides and 3 Flyrants in the same list. The list wasn't broken by any means, and it ended up being a fun game, but it just reeked of cheese. I've also seen (but not played against) Imperial knights w/Daemon factory. Admittedly, some Imperial Knights might turn to Chaos or something (indeed, there should be some provision for this either in the Knights codex or a dataslate or supplement or something), but this kind of thing is just silly to me. Admittedly, part of my objection to this is fluff reasons, but still...

Battle Bros is what broke the game in 6th. FA transports is just frosting on the 7th ed cake.

I personally hate allies and everything about them, but I see why some people like them.

What I dont understand thou is why nobody ever played 1500 points of SM and 500 points of Guard vs 2000 points of say Chaos back in 3rd - 5th edition.

I know we did and it worked great. No buffs, no fuss, no problem.

I wouldn't be sad if allies disappeared, however I think simply bumping them down a notch as others have suggested is the best. Not letting ICs join across armies and eliminating shared transports fixes almost all the current problems.

EDIT: It would actually be really interesting to se a tournament implement this.

I personally like the Allies matrix but that's probably because I run two armies:
a Knightworld themed IG list *so I couldn't run the single I knight I own with it*
And a growing Skitarii/Cult force *not being able to run these two together would be just silly.*

*So many edits. Thats what I get for late night typing

The background is full of alliances - from Blood Angels relieving Yarrick's defenders of Hades Hive to the Ultramarines and Eldar at Ichar IV, and such oddities as Imperial Guard and Tau fighting against a Genestealer cult (For The Emperor) or Orks with human "advisors" or mercenaries.

If you do away with the ability for the rules to represent this sort of thing, I think the game will be sadly reduced. If there are specific issues, [i]deal with those[.i], don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Don't allow Allies to ride in each others' transports. Make more use of Allies of Convenience and Desperate Allies. Take a leaf from Forge World's book and make the Allies Matrix asymmetrical (i.e. Blood Angels might be able to take Astra Militarum as Battle Brothers, but AM can only have Blood Angel allies as Allies of Convenience).

I think we have to remember, that Allies is the crutch that the game designers use for poor codex design. Its there so that it can excuse all of the poor choices are bad balancing that lies in every codex. Its not likley to go away. It also drives model sales up for the flagship line which might be flagging a bit without it.

Sounds like someone got beaten by a player with good tactics and strategy.

All Imperial Armies should have access to the vehicles the Imperium produces. In some cases, maybe it's in very limited quantities (like 0-1, maybe only as the DT for a specific HQ or Warlord)... but everyone in PA should have drop-pods available. Everyone should have Rhinos, Leman Russ tanks, Chimeras, various bikes, Valkyries, Vendettas and all the other crap the Forge Worlds produce for the Imperium-at-large.

Sure, maybe not Space Marine-restricted vehicles, but I don't think those are particularly required.

I'm a huge ran of allies, in its current incarnation.

So, no, not me.

So, let us get rid of the only thing that makes CSM good... *Slowly clicks second to last option*

 dragoonmaster101 wrote:
So, let us get rid of the only thing that makes CSM good... *Slowly clicks second to last option*

Except...it's not making CSM's good, it's taking less CSM stuff and including better stuff from other armies

 Psienesis wrote:
All Imperial Armies should have access to the vehicles the Imperium produces. In some cases, maybe it's in very limited quantities (like 0-1, maybe only as the DT for a specific HQ or Warlord)... but everyone in PA should have drop-pods available. Everyone should have Rhinos, Leman Russ tanks, Chimeras, various bikes, Valkyries, Vendettas and all the other crap the Forge Worlds produce for the Imperium-at-large.

Sure, maybe not Space Marine-restricted vehicles, but I don't think those are particularly required.

There is just no reason for this, the Imperium is NOT one giant happy army. All the IoM factions: space marine chapters, imperial guard, skitarri (aka cult mechanicus), the inquisition, etc all are interested in their own faction and general politics to a large degree and care very little for the other factions(cult mech especially gives 0 gaks about other factions). I mean even marine chapters simply don't co-mingle like battle brothers and many chapters actively hate others chapters. Even when you have chapters cooperating, they don't mingle, they instead each act as seemingly independent entities on the field sometimes following a larger strategy. An example that comes to mind is from on the books where a forge world was under attack by I think chaos and the cult mechanicus had no interest in helping defend until they were absolutely needed (city walls breached and the actual forges under assault) and would rather the guard/SM just take larger causalities then help since their facilities weren't being attacked yet. There is pretty much never a circumstance where a hero from one space marine chapter would be representing his chapter with marines from another, let alone guard.

The real issue is battle brothers. It should honestly just be removed, this would literally solve almost all ally problems. All battle brothers should merely become allies of convenience, because lets face it...they are even among the IoM.

For GW having allies is GREAT for selling models, so it will never go away now that its like this, there will always be allies for as long as 40K continues to exist because its an extremely easy money grab. Just throw factions together that are of the same race, ignoring all balance, and BAM insta money printing aka what allies currently are.

let's call a spade a spade, when people talk about DT swapping they're talking specificly about Droppods. generally no one's gonna care too much if a squad of guardsmen are riding around in a Rhino. it's when someone decides to put a squad of Skitarii in a drop pod or something that the issue arises. and there I'm as a fluff focused person in COMPLETE agreement. I've always been a biiiig fan of the concept of the narritive game oplay, but here's the thing. drop pods have always been presented as something that, at least among humans, only marines can really do. and that normal humans just aren't built tough eneugh to handle it. I don't mind rhinos and razor backs as fast attack choices. as I can actually envision some possiable narritive uses for them. but not drop pods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverSaint wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
All Imperial Armies should have access to the vehicles the Imperium produces. In some cases, maybe it's in very limited quantities (like 0-1, maybe only as the DT for a specific HQ or Warlord)... but everyone in PA should have drop-pods available. Everyone should have Rhinos, Leman Russ tanks, Chimeras, various bikes, Valkyries, Vendettas and all the other crap the Forge Worlds produce for the Imperium-at-large.

Sure, maybe not Space Marine-restricted vehicles, but I don't think those are particularly required.

There is just no reason for this, the Imperium is NOT one giant happy army. All the IoM factions: space marine chapters, imperial guard, skitarri (aka cult mechanicus), the inquisition, etc all are interested in their own faction and general politics to a large degree and care very little for the other factions(cult mech especially gives 0 gaks about other factions). I mean even marine chapters simply don't co-mingle like battle brothers and many chapters actively hate others chapters. Even when you have chapters cooperating, they don't mingle, they instead each act as seemingly independent entities on the field sometimes following a larger strategy. An example that comes to mind is from on the books where a forge world was under attack by I think chaos and the cult mechanicus had no interest in helping defend until they were absolutely needed (city walls breached and the actual forges under assault) and would rather the guard/SM just take larger causalities then help since their facilities weren't being attacked yet. There is pretty much never a circumstance where a hero from one space marine chapter would be representing his chapter with marines from another, let alone guard.

The real issue is battle brothers. It should honestly just be removed, this would literally solve almost all ally problems. All battle brothers should merely become allies of convenience, because lets face it...they are even among the IoM.

For GW having allies is GREAT for selling models, so it will never go away now that its like this, there will always be allies for as long as 40K continues to exist because its an extremely easy money grab. Just throw factions together that are of the same race, ignoring all balance, and BAM insta money printing aka what allies currently are.

really so the IoM never cooperates together at all? IG battle psykers never work to support a Astartes chapter. and if a IG Chimera saw a squad of Marines in need of transport on the battlefield they'd just leave em there?

BrianDavion wrote:

and if a IG Chimera saw a squad of Marines in need of transport on the battlefield they'd just leave em there?

In many instances...probably. Space Marines are not in the IG's chain of command nor their responsibility (and people get shot for going off-mission). If they're hauling around Space Marines, they're not hauling around their own dudes. They might pick them up to help them bug out in an emergency "everyone run away" situation, but probably aren't going to pick them up and drive them into battle. A Chimera also isn't designed to haul 8ft tall dudes in gigantic power armor, just as Drop Pods are not appropriate to non-Astartes troops.

You can always find or come up with exceptions to anything, that doesn't mean the rules should allow such in every single game.

Do they cooperate? Sure. Are they ostensibly on the same side? Mostly. Should they be able to treat stuff in other armies basically identically to their own? Probably not. As I pointed out earlier, I'd really be in favor of basically bumping every level of allies "up" one level (BB's act as AoC, AoC act as Desperate, Desperate acts as CtA, CtA becomes not possible).

 Vaktathi wrote:
I'd be ok with ditching allies altogether.

That said, I'm also ok with keeping them but enforcing much more restrictions to remove some of the more ridiculous shennanigans. Essentially bumping everything "up" a level. Battle Brothers operate as Allies of Convenience do now. Allies of Convenience oeprate as Desperate Allies, Desperate Allies operate as CtA, CtA=Only in Apocalypse games, not possible in normal games. I think, in most cases, that would also make more sense fluffwise.

This.

 Icculus wrote:
I like allies and think it can add a lot of dimension to certain armies. And am all in favor of being able to field allies. Heck, some books just wouldnt work without it.

Inquisition
Harlequins
Tempestus
Skitarii/Admech as they are each their own book.

I think riding in eachother's transports is the most broken part of it. So here is my solution. There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.

So if there are wraithguard in a raider, then there has to be a dark eldar IC in there.

If there is an Inquisitor in a drop pod, then he has to be with a marine unit.

I just want to echo this. Beautiful.

BrianDavion wrote:
let's call a spade a spade, when people talk about DT swapping they're talking specificly about Droppods. generally no one's gonna care too much if a squad of guardsmen are riding around in a Rhino. it's when someone decides to put a squad of Skitarii in a drop pod or something that the issue arises. and there I'm as a fluff focused person in COMPLETE agreement. I've always been a biiiig fan of the concept of the narritive game oplay, but here's the thing. drop pods have always been presented as something that, at least among humans, only marines can really do. and that normal humans just aren't built tough eneugh to handle it. I don't mind rhinos and razor backs as fast attack choices. as I can actually envision some possiable narritive uses for them. but not drop pods.

They're also talking about WWP Raiders loaded with Wraithguard for driveby D-Scything.

In any regards, I would say that literally the ONLY exception to the rule in regards to "normal humans in Drop Pods" would be the Skitarii. One of the biggest failures of that book was that they made everyone T3, when if you were to look they're more machine than man. It's ostensibly why they gave everyone in the army a FNP save, which is nice but again...T3 with a 6+ FNP(Rangers/Vanguard) and a 4+ save isn't going to be surviving too much outside of cover. The assault unit(Ruststalkers) and its support equivalent(Infiltrators) get 4+/6++ with a 5+ FNP save and it just does not work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Icculus wrote:
I like allies and think it can add a lot of dimension to certain armies. And am all in favor of being able to field allies. Heck, some books just wouldnt work without it.

Inquisition
Harlequins
Tempestus
Skitarii/Admech as they are each their own book.

I think riding in eachother's transports is the most broken part of it. So here is my solution. There has to be at least one model in the transport from the chosen codex.

So if there are wraithguard in a raider, then there has to be a dark eldar IC in there.

If there is an Inquisitor in a drop pod, then he has to be with a marine unit.

I just want to echo this. Beautiful.

Except for the fact that in quite a few cases that's what is already happening. Webway Portal Raider Wraithguard driveby isn't doable without a Dark Eldar IC.

And quite frankly, it should be that ICs can't join units that aren't on the field already nor can units board DTs which aren't on the board.

I think the game is just too much of a mess for BBs.

It really isn't though. With how many books say X rule applies only to models with X faction(like Skitarii being the only ones able to get Doctrina Imperatives or Cult Mechanicus only being able to restore Wounds to Skitarii/CM units), it isn't that excessive.

Battle Brothers were a bit excessive in some places but it really can be traced to the advent of the nonsensical empty dedicated transports as Fast Attack allowing armies which were balanced around having certain forms of transports(Eldar not being able to fire out of Falcons/Wave Serpents for example) or no transports at all(Skitarii and Cult Mechanicus, for example) to gain access to relatively precise Deep Striking transports which allow for them to disgorge their firepower with ease.

In the case of Eldar, it's become the Webway Portal equipped Lord in a Raider loaded with Wraithguard and with Skitarii we're seeing Drop Pods loaded with Vanguard and 3x Arc Rifles allowing for a total of 6 Haywire shots, with the ability to reroll misses if you've bumped their BS by 2 or 3.

 DoomShakaLaka wrote:
Why not just get rid of the matrix and basically have all the factions treat each other as battle bros and go all the way towards the path of the dark side.

And as always I choose heresy as my second option.

Dark Side, Heresy, and cookies 2016!

A broad allies matrix makes it impossible to have balanced, distinct armies.

Think about it. I can make an army, for instance, that is based on short-range shooting. It's fragile. It's designed to be fast and hug cover, getting within range of the enemy that way. The fragility and short range are weakness, counterbalanced by the speed and whatever cover-enhancing abilities it has (Stealth, MtC, whatever).

But if it can ally with someone who has tough transports, you have removed the weakness. All it has are strengths.