Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Ahtman wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
I think people are using the rule of thumb that if a character is too good to be true,

Then you would be wrong, to an extent. Besides I never disagreed, I just expanded on your explanation.

Not you specifically. But in this topic Poe Dameron was earlier labelled a Sue for being a ridiculously good pilot, even though it was foreshadowed that he's the best pilot, and a rebel ace is always going to be a great pilot by definition.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Just a general question but what is Rey not good at? She's better at flying ships than Han Solo or Lando, she can repair things better than Anakin could, and she's better at the force than basically anyone based on how she picked it up almost randomly and defeated Kylo who had extensive training.

It's not like she's fresh out of high-school, she's been fending for herself in quite a hostile place since childhood, scavenging and repairing technology. We already know she can fight, we see her beat up two henchmen on Jakku, (and an imperial Stormtrooper). I think being able to fly the falcon was a bit of an ass-pull, it's not clear where she would have learned to pilot anything bigger than a speeder. I wouldn't say she is a better pilot than Han, if you watch Empire, Han does a very similar run through the asteroid field, without the dodgy take off. And her quick reflexes are explained by her being a force user. Like Anakin with the pod racers "I'm the only human who can do it", because he can see things before they happen. Anakin also built his own pod racer, AND a protocol droid by the age of 10, which is waaaaaaaaaay more ridiculous than anything Rey did.

She does seem to be learning the force faster than Luke (who is really our only basis for comparison), but that is probably more to do with the pacing of the story. The first time an audience met Luke, they didn't know what the force was, or what Jedi were, we learned about those things through him. Rey is for a different audience, she is much more genre savvy. She knows about the Jedi, she knows about Han and Luke and the Millennium Falcon, and the Kessler run, and she seems to know about Jedi mind tricks. It's almost like she's seen the films, because we've seen the films. As Shakespear said, "brevity is the soul of wit", we don't need to learn everything all over again, so neither does she.

A lot of people are asking how can this super death star suck up the energy of nearby stars - isn't that against the laws of physics or something?

I can't speak for the American education system, but years ago in Britain, when I was at school, the physics teacher taught us Lucas' first law of relativity, which explains these scientific phenomena

Luke it up in a textbook


Automatically Appended Next Post:

but that is probably more to do with the pacing of the story

Or the weakness of the script

 Kojiro wrote:

It seems like you're implying that since she's flown before, the feats displayed are in no way exceptional examples of piloting? That the standard pilot would have no trouble doing what she did. Is that your assertion?

No.

They're no more remarkable than any other feat performed by any other lead character in an action film.

Interestingly she also knows- despite admitting to never having piloted a ship off planet- how to operate a hyperdrive. Which as Han reminds Luke, ain't like dusting crops!

It's the calculation which is difficult.
Hence the use of computers.

Apparently flying at hyperspace is no more difficult than " pushing a button".

Really?

yes.

First up the Falcon is a freighter and by now at least 60 years old. It's not a fighter or even a shuttle.

It's also the Mil.. Falcon, which had previously had modifications made to it by various owners to improve/enhance it.

These works continuing -- albeit with some debate over the use/effectiveness of some of the mods -- by its current owners/whatever.

She flew that thing well enough to keep two professionally trained pilots off her. That would be impressive in open space but it extremely impressive to do so in a freighter she is completely unfamiliar with flying. And let's recall she's not keeping clunkers off her tail, she's keeping TIE fighters- some of the fastest and most maneuverable fighters in the galaxy.

That may well be what they're supposed to be, however if one is honest TIE fighter pilots regularly display the skillset and self preservation of a suicidal lemming.

Whenever main characters in Star wars come up against TIE fighters they outfly them.

She manages to do this without the aid of a co pilot (or shields) too- a testament to how little fire she actually took. And the cherry on top of course is lining up a TIE with a locked up gun. Finn can barely hit them with the targeting computer and a swivel but from the cockpit she can line up a gun she can't even see.

It was a proper "hail mary" attempt that worked.

same as pretty much every hero in an action film ever.

It's well known that 1 in a million attempts will work 9 times out of 10.

Conversely Han pushed a button to drop out of hyperspace and pulled up, crashed through a forest and then crash landed. In the Millennium Falcon. Han. Crashed. Maybe it's my bias but I take points of for crash landings. I'm not pilot but I'm going to go ahead and say that XXX meters should generally be greater than zero.

If not impressive or 'skillful', how would you rate her piloting?

So travelling through hyperspace is incredibly difficult.. except when Han does it, when it's just pushing a button.

For me, plotting a course that involves you calculating to a few hundred meters the exact location where you'll drop out of hyperspace -- so you bypass the shields but don't smash into the vast stellar body on the other side of it is very impressive. Certainly more impressive than flying a ship through wrecks etc etc , a feat I've seen copied innumerable times in video games and the like by people who aren't pilots at all.

Or even vaguely fit.

TBF said routes have often required a few " practise runs ", if you follow me , but it's not exactly a lifetimes worth of dedication and hardwork.


The issue with Han and the Falcon was far more problematic for me, not least as it pretty much renders a lot of the shielding technology obsolete.

If they're capable of doing that -- and apparently that's no more difficult than pushing a button -- then I don't see why they don't just "kamikaze" ships like that all the time.

It would have been much easier just to load the ship up with explosives, throw in a droid -- perhaps even one of the less self aware ones in case anyone objects -- launch it into hyperspace and just come out past the shield and crash into the shield generator/whatever. Job done.

Hell, coming out a bit lower and simply hitting the planet would, presumably, do significant damage.

I still don't understand why Finn climbed into the lower gun turret, other than to set up the 'hail mary' shot with the locked gun. The Falcon was on the ground so it made much more sense to go to the upper gun turret. Finn even instructs Rey to fly low making his turret position even more useless.

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

Just a brief change in the subject for a second to ask a question of the more knowlegable. If the Sith go by the rule of two, a master and apprentice, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor trying to bring Luke into the fold? The Emperor even called Luke his apprentice.

The Emperor was wanting Luke to kill Vader. - "Take your fathers place by my side."
Vader was wanting Luke to help him kill The Emperor. - "Join me and we'll rule this galaxy together as father and son."

 George Spiggott wrote:
I still don't understand why Finn climbed into the lower gun turret, other than to set up the 'hail mary' shot with the locked gun. The Falcon was on the ground so it made much more sense to go to the upper gun turret. Finn even instructs Rey to fly low making his turret position even more useless.

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

It's why Anakin was able to pod race. I hate referring to the prequels for justification, but since the EU has kind of gotten the axe, can't really point at that anymore.

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

We've always accepted that Star Wars doesn't stand up to common sense or scrutiny, that's a given, and it's no less enjoyable for it, but this is one thing that gets my goat as well.

I'm pretty sure that Yoda and Kenobi mentioned on many an occasion that the force is part of every living thing, so if a jedi or somebody who was force sensitive, could control a horse or some other exotic alien creature, I'd buy it.

BUT

Spaceships are not living things. Mechanical things are not living things, and so on.

So I don't see how being force sensitive helps with metal stuff.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


BUT

Spaceships are not living things. Mechanical things are not living things, and so on.

So I don't see how being force sensitive helps with metal stuff.

This is underlined by the first destruction of the Death Star. Luke is told to believe in the force, but it's NOT the Force that leads the torpedos into the vent, it's Luke's very own abilties supported by the Force that allow him to hit the nigh-impossible to hit target.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


BUT

Spaceships are not living things. Mechanical things are not living things, and so on.

So I don't see how being force sensitive helps with metal stuff.

This is underlined by the first destruction of the Death Star. Luke is told to believe in the force, but it's NOT the Force that leads the torpedos into the vent, it's Luke's very own abilties supported by the Force that allow him to hit the nigh-impossible to hit target.

So the force improved his eyesight, which supports my living things argument

For me, the force is always been something you could use if you needed to roll two 6's in a wargame or something. It shouldn't be a convenient plot device.

Relapse wrote:
Just a brief change in the subject for a second to ask a question of the more knowlegable. If the Sith go by the rule of two, a master and apprentice, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor trying to bring Luke into the fold? The Emperor even called Luke his apprentice.

There always seem to be more than two at any given point because of various attempts at back stabbing and whatnot.

The emperor wanted Luke to kill Vader and be the new apprentice.
Vader wanted to kill the emperor and be the new master with Luke as the new apprentice.
In the EU Vader had a few apprentices on his own since he was always trying to figure out how to kill the Emperor.

My nephew had an interesting theory.. something like Rey and Ren will need to work together and both like and dark will have to unite to take out the new supreme leader guy and restore order to the galaxy, and restoring order means no light or dark but something all new that's more neutral and about doing the right thing.

Luke knew this, and told Ren he had to become a to make this happen because he has enough light in him to succeed, and it's also why Ren tried to tell Rey to let him train her. But Ren ended up getting screwed because to become a sith he had to do something really evil like kill his dad and thats why he was saying he knew what he had to do but didn't think he could.

 George Spiggott wrote:

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

Luke however did have skill flying the T-16 Skyhoppers. Which is made by Incom, the same company which created the X-wing. Both have similar cockpit layouts, controls, and handling.

"It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much larger than two meters."

As for Anakin, he was facing battle droids, which are about as dangerous as the 3 stooges. The auto-pilot took him to the battle itself, then he just managed to fly around a bit, till he was hit and crash landed in the droid hanger bay. Then he manages to activate the weapon systems and accidentally fires a torpedo, which happens to hit the main reactor(WTF? Why did the Trade Federation put their main reactor in such close proximity to large quantities of munitions and fuel?)

Literally 15 seconds before takeoff...

Finn: "wait, we need a pilot!"

Rey: "we have one!"

Rey has piloting experience. As for the dogfight, she has a tail gunner shooting at the tie fighters the whole time, which are trying to fly and target the falcon at the same time, so it's not like she just out lies them, they're trying to evade fire simultaneously. Finally, tie fighters are star fighters, built primarily for space fighting, clearly they're capable of atmospheric flight, but that doesn't mean they're good at it (note that they're curiously absent from the ground battles on Hoth and Endor). The falcon has been piloted and modified by some pretty serious smugglers, it's supposed to look inconspicuous but it is clearly much more capable than most people suspect.

 Necros wrote:
My nephew had an interesting theory.. something like Rey and Ren will need to work together and both like and dark will have to unite to take out the new supreme leader guy and restore order to the galaxy, and restoring order means no light or dark but something all new that's more neutral and about doing the right thing.

Luke knew this, and told Ren he had to become a to make this happen because he has enough light in him to succeed, and it's also why Ren tried to tell Rey to let him train her. But Ren ended up getting screwed because to become a sith he had to do something really evil like kill his dad and thats why he was saying he knew what he had to do but didn't think he could.

"Grey" doesn't work with the Force. The Force itself is "good" on the alignment scale of things. The Force is life, or the power of life, and is fueled by and used by all living beings, some sensitive to it, some not. The Force itself strives for the survival of all things. Yet the Force is, after all things, power and power can also be used for purposes it wasn't meant to. Like guns (hah!). Thus the Dark Side harnesses said power and uses it to destroy life (among other things).

That is why there can never be a true "balance" of the Force or a permanent "grey" state - this would assume that there would never be a bad being again, intending to abuse, hurt or even kill others. That's not possible by any means and that is why there will always be a Light and a Dark side of the Force.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:


As for Anakin, he was facing battle droids, which are about as dangerous as the 3 stooges. The auto-pilot took him to the battle itself, then he just managed to fly around a bit, till he was hit and crash landed in the droid hanger bay. Then he manages to activate the weapon systems and accidentally fires a torpedo, which happens to hit the main reactor(WTF? Why did the Trade Federation put their main reactor in such close proximity to large quantities of munitions and fuel?)

Anakin was just protected by seven layers of plot armor and horrid writing / cinematography. CinemaSins, again, did a great job at pointing that out. Young Anakin with ZERO, I repeat, ZERO space fighter experience manages to take out an entire battlestation and fly STRAIGHT INTO A SWARM OF ENEMY FIGHTERS without GETTING HIT ONCE. So when people like me talk about Rey being a Mary Sue, then it really is, at least for me, criticism on a much higher level. Anakin is the Mary Sue of all Mary Sues with his biggest downfall being victim of a script writer that seemingly never had a single relationship before, writing a teenage romance noone wanted, for a whiny, angsty teenager, on the writing level of a whiny, angsty teenager.

I really hope they don't go the whole "grey jedi" "Keeper of the balance" bs.

I hate all that stuff.

So what we're basically leading to in this thread is that Rey is closer to Anakin than Luke, based on their performances so far? That's not a good sign for a character :/.

 Tinkrr wrote:
So what we're basically leading to in this thread is that Rey is closer to Anakin than Luke, based on their performances so far? That's not a good sign for a character :/.

Gotta say that is the minorities opinion.

Rey emoted more and had much better lines. Shes in the middle not really that good, but not horrible like the prequels. Just in the middle.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So what we're basically leading to in this thread is that Rey is closer to Anakin than Luke, based on their performances so far? That's not a good sign for a character :/.

Gotta say that is the minorities opinion.

Rey emoted more and had much better lines. Shes in the middle not really that good, but not horrible like the prequels. Just in the middle.

Well yea, she's not full on Anakin, but she feels like she leans more towards him than the originals. Oh well, we still have two more movies, maybe she'll be toned down a bit and it won't be as bad next time around. The movie itself was still good though, much better than the prequels as a whole, and I liked the whole Trade Federation.

Rey is most certainly not as annoying as "whoops I accidentally blew up this battleship" Anakin.

She leans towards Anakin if we all assume that she has no training in the force and no experience piloting ships.

But if we watch the movie and actually notice the various hints:

- she was somewhere else doing something else before she was abandoned
- she actually knows how to fight
- Ben seemed to recognized her (and does say "it's you" in the book
- the force vision seemed to knock something loose
- she wears an x-wing helmet, so she at least wants to be a pilot
- she admits to having worked on the Falcon before they escape on it
- she actually says "I'm a pilot"

Then is seems like she is less of a "just because" and more of a "there is more to her than meets the eye" kinda character.

Relapse wrote:
Just a brief change in the subject for a second to ask a question of the more knowlegable. If the Sith go by the rule of two, a master and apprentice, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor trying to bring Luke into the fold? The Emperor even called Luke his apprentice.

Well, with any luck, that stupid "rule of two" will be thrown out with the new continuity.

And, besides, what's a little rules-breaking to Vader or Palpatine when it comes to ruling the galaxy?

 Tinkrr wrote:
So what we're basically leading to in this thread is that Rey is closer to Anakin than Luke, based on their performances so far? That's not a good sign for a character :/.

It's only a bad sign if you assume that RPG-style power levels are the only things that matter in determining if a character is good or not. Anakin didn't just suck because he was too powerful, he sucked because his acting was horrible and half of his feats were used as childish (and poorly-done) comic relief. Whether or not Rey is following the same power level as Anakin the acting is much better and she's at least a serious character instead of comic relief that just happens to be more powerful than anyone else.

 d-usa wrote:
She leans towards Anakin if we all assume that she has no training in the force and no experience piloting ships.

But if we watch the movie and actually notice the various hints:

- she was somewhere else doing something else before she was abandoned One would imagine being a small child, we can't assume until more has been shown.

- she actually knows how to fight Funny how combat with a staff, is different to combat with a sword, and the first half of sword combat has her losing quite handily, until 'the force'.

- Ben seemed to recognized her (and does say "it's you" in the book) Good thing the majority of movie go-ers will have rea.... wait no, they shouldn't rely on supplementary viewing to help out the story of the film, it should stand on it's own feet.

- the force vision seemed to knock something loose Or she just saw Ren burn down Luke's new Jedi School, and was unprepared for violent flashback exposition.

- she wears an x-wing helmet, so she at least wants to be a pilot I recall a battle of Jakku from somewhere, where the rebels/republic broke the back of the empire, which would leave a lot of debris around.

- she admits to having worked on the Falcon before they escape on it worked on it, not knows how it handles in flight

- she actually says "I'm a pilot" and pulls out some crazier manoeuvres than Han ever does in it, not counting when to push hyperdrive stop button as that's navigation not piloting.



Then is seems like she is less of a "just because" and more of a "there is more to her than meets the eye" kinda character.

So yes, there are hints, but the feats as a result of these hints are much greater than I personally would imagine.

I.e Someone should have pointed at some dense canyoning or something and said fancy another race through those later, I'll beat you this time. Would clue you in on her ability to pull off some manoeuvres as opposed to the "cut the engines mid flip line up the cannon trick" she pulls out, and at this point moviewise, there's nothing to point to "the force" as a way out.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Just a brief change in the subject for a second to ask a question of the more knowlegable. If the Sith go by the rule of two, a master and apprentice, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor trying to bring Luke into the fold? The Emperor even called Luke his apprentice.

Well, with any luck, that stupid "rule of two" will be thrown out with the new continuity.

The rule of two didn't ever make sense. I mean, come on, if there were only ever two in the entire universe to begin with...and why? To be stealthier? Jedi seemingly cannot sense a Sith who is SITTING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. I mean LITERALLY right. in. front. of. them. So...why introduce the rule of two? It's not like there was any cup involved.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Just a brief change in the subject for a second to ask a question of the more knowlegable. If the Sith go by the rule of two, a master and apprentice, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor trying to bring Luke into the fold? The Emperor even called Luke his apprentice.

Well, with any luck, that stupid "rule of two" will be thrown out with the new continuity.

The rule of two didn't ever make sense. I mean, come on, if there were only ever two in the entire universe to begin with...and why? To be stealthier? Jedi seemingly cannot sense a Sith who is SITTING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. I mean LITERALLY right. in. front. of. them. So...why introduce the rule of two? It's not like there was any cup involved.

Its a tradition that was created by a powerful sith lord, who's order was wiped out due to infighting.
It wasn't always around

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

Basically, the idea is that due to the Sith tendency to betray each other, in order to get anything done there can only be a master and an apprentice.

...which doesn't make any sense whatsoever, especially regarding how that whole thing went with Vader / Palpatine.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Relapse wrote:
Just a brief change in the subject for a second to ask a question of the more knowlegable. If the Sith go by the rule of two, a master and apprentice, why were Darth Vader and the Emperor trying to bring Luke into the fold? The Emperor even called Luke his apprentice.

Well, with any luck, that stupid "rule of two" will be thrown out with the new continuity.

The rule of two didn't ever make sense. I mean, come on, if there were only ever two in the entire universe to begin with...and why? To be stealthier? Jedi seemingly cannot sense a Sith who is SITTING RIGHT IN FRONT OF THEM. I mean LITERALLY right. in. front. of. them. So...why introduce the rule of two? It's not like there was any cup involved.

But that was Palpatine, possibly THE most powerful force sensitive in the galaxy, a powerful Sith Lord and master of disguise. Its hardly surprising that he was able to hide from the Jedi Order, as a Sith lord his be very survival depended on it.

Death Maul and Vader (post fall) on the other hand...do you think they could have hidden themselves from the Jedi order?

 Grey Templar wrote:

 George Spiggott wrote:

I assume Force users are just good at flying space ships because "The Force". Luke had no training in X-wings, Anakin had no training in those yellow fighters.

Luke however did have skill flying the T-16 Skyhoppers. Which is made by Incom, the same company which created the X-wing. Both have similar cockpit layouts, controls, and handling.

"It's not impossible. I used to bull's-eye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much larger than two meters."

I'd say there was a little more to the Death Star battle than target shooting vermin from a skimmer.

Also why does C3PO have a red arm, other than because he can point it out and it will make the new C3PO toys different to the old ones. I ask this because it has magically changed back to a gold one by the end of the film.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So what we're basically leading to in this thread is that Rey is closer to Anakin than Luke, based on their performances so far? That's not a good sign for a character :/.

It's only a bad sign if you assume that RPG-style power levels are the only things that matter in determining if a character is good or not. Anakin didn't just suck because he was too powerful, he sucked because his acting was horrible and half of his feats were used as childish (and poorly-done) comic relief. Whether or not Rey is following the same power level as Anakin the acting is much better and she's at least a serious character instead of comic relief that just happens to be more powerful than anyone else.

You keep saying RPG-style, but that's not what people are asking for, they're simply asking for basic story elements of character progression over time. Yes, RPGs tend to have a more visible growth from point A to point B with growth in power, but every other type of game or story has a character acquiring skills over the story and becoming better, Rey doesn't do this, she just already has them and if anything her sudden ability to use the force against Kylo is more akin to the RPG style of things, almost to the point of being the end scene from Scott Pilgrim where he acquires the power of whatever and a magic sword pops out of his chest.

So yes, you're right, Rey is a very RPG-styled character when acquiring things randomly.