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Give me an example where these abilities are seen, or explain why the /sf pilot ISN'T piloting a TIE/sf?

Went to see it again this afternoon, the cinema was 3/4 empty, but we ended up on the same row as a group of people I'm guessing were late 60s, mid 70s.

I got to see their reactions occasionally, and it made my week. The guy next to me was leaning like he was a kid at the cinema, jumping slightly at dramatic points...

I was okay until midway through Han and Leia reuniting, out of the corner of my eye I saw him struggling to put down his cane, then take his wife's hand and hold it.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
But when the plot suits- or when concussion missiles, heavy shields and a turret turbo laser cracking turret aren't convenient- the /sf is nowhere to be found.

Except that is. Your failure to realize that doesn't make it any less true.

When was the special Tie Fighters abilities ever used except when the heroes needed them?

I could only watch this film once so I may have missed something. The issue he brings up was glaring for me too since Tie Fighters did horribly the rest of the film.

He also made a claim that the only time we see the Special Forces TIE is during Finn and Poe's escape, which isn't true because they fly them during the Battle of Takodana. Also, their TIE wasn't that great either considering it got shot down.

Guess what, the ship the heroes are in always does better than the ships the mooks are flying. In the original Star Wars, X-wings get shot down by a stiff breeze (seriously, Porkins doesn't even get hit by lasers... he just crashes). Yet Luke is able to shrug off two different hits from TIEs because he has to be the hero to make the impossible shot. The same thing happens in The Empire Strikes Back during the Battle of Hoth. Luke's snowspeeder gets hit and his gunner Dak is killed, but crashes and walks away. Meanwhile, everyone else that gets hit explodes into a fireball.

It's almost as if the heroes always seem to survive in a Star Wars movie (except Han Solo).

 Kojiro wrote:
Because the vehicle is a special version. Special things require explanation, either in the form of exposition, demonstration or dialogue.

They really don't.

We know that a two-seater TIE exists when we see it. Ultimately, I'm not seeing how the two of them jumping into a two-seater TIE is any different to them jumping into any other two-seater ship.

We don't need to have the existence of every single thing explained to us before it appears in the movie. That would just be tedious.

And if they're going to show us this guy:

then he should be piloting one of these special TIEs- his red helmet stripes do indicate after all he's a TIE/sf pilot.

Why are you assuming that all special forces TIEs are two-seaters?

 Kojiro wrote:
Give me an example where these abilities are seen, or explain why the /sf pilot ISN'T piloting a TIE/sf?

They use their turret in the Battle of Takodana and according to the Star Wars website, the red stripe is to denote rank.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Kojiro wrote:
But when the plot suits- or when concussion missiles, heavy shields and a turret turbo laser cracking turret aren't convenient- the /sf is nowhere to be found.

Except that is. Your failure to realize that doesn't make it any less true.

When was the special Tie Fighters abilities ever used except when the heroes needed them?

I could only watch this film once so I may have missed something. The issue he brings up was glaring for me too since Tie Fighters did horribly the rest of the film.

He also made a claim that the only time we see the Special Forces TIE is during Finn and Poe's escape, which isn't true because they fly them during the Battle of Takodana. Also, their TIE wasn't that great either considering it got shot down.

Guess what, the ship the heroes are in always does better than the ships the mooks are flying. In the original Star Wars, X-wings get shot down by a stiff breeze (seriously, Porkins doesn't even get hit by lasers... he just crashes). Yet Luke is able to shrug off two different hits from TIEs because he has to be the hero to make the impossible shot. The same thing happens in The Empire Strikes Back during the Battle of Hoth. Luke's snowspeeder gets hit and his gunner Dak is killed, but crashes and walks away. Meanwhile, everyone else that gets hit explodes into a fireball.

It's almost as if the heroes always seem to survive in a Star Wars movie (except Han Solo).

Your answer is terrible then, look at the bit you quoted then your answer... but the lack of Special TIE fighters using their toys was something I too noticed throughout the movie.

Also Porkins died due to malfunction, which I always really liked about his unfortunate character.

There is not even an explanation why Darth Vader shows up in a special ship or what it does that is special. He just has a special ship because Vader.

 d-usa wrote:
There is not even an explanation why Darth Vader shows up in a special ship or what it does that is special. He just has a special ship because Vader.

True, but it isn't really a major plot point. He's just got a really really big Star Destroyer which we see a couple times, never even gets named on-screen, and it gets destroyed at the battle of Endor.

 Vaktathi wrote:
More to the point, it felt like there was a missing movie somewhere. Who on earth is this "First Order"? What happened to the Empire? What's the difference between "The Resistance" and "The Republic"? Why do we never see anything of the Republic? Who was this "Supreme Grand Master"? And the whole Kylo Ren thing was even more awkward. The whole movie felt like jumping into Game of Thrones at Season 4 having only seen Season 1 and missed Seasons 2 and 3.

I think the age of the actors is a limitation there. A lot of people (including me) assumed that the next part of the story would have been about Luke, Leia and Han, but those movies were never made.

The new movies are going to need to tell their own story with the new characters. One of the (many) problems with the prequels was that they wasted too much time trying to tie themselves to the original films, instead of telling their own story. So we end up with the Phantom Menace, which shows us how Anakin and Obi Wan meet, but is completely disjointed from the other two films. Then we have Attack of the Clones which needs to set up all the plot and characters that should have been established in the first film, then it has to do all the leg work, squeezing in Boba Fett's origin, the storm troopers' origin, Anakin and Padmé's love story (widely regarded as one of the worst love stories in the history of cinema), Anakin's return to Tatooine, and the clone wars. All this has to be shoehorned into one film without any regard for pacing, because the first film wasted two hours on pod-racing and Gungans. All so that in Revenge of the Sith, we can have Anakin fall to The Darkside so fast it's almost comical, and then quickly tie up all the loose ends to link back to A New Hope. My point here is: had the first film been "skipped", then there would have been a whole extra film to tell the story that the trilogy was supposed to be telling, which might have given it the breathing space that it sorely needed.

I'm almost certain that a lot of your questions about the Supreme Leader and the First Order, are being saved for a big reveal during the next films. So in that sense there are two missing films, but they won't be missing for very long (all things going to plan).

 Swastakowey wrote:
Your answer is terrible then, look at the bit you quoted then your answer... but the lack of Special TIE fighters using their toys was something I too noticed throughout the movie.

No one really cares what you did or didn't notice. Also, judging by almost all of your 'complaints,' it's pretty obvious you didn't notice a lot of what was going on.

Plus, they did use their "special weapons" like I previously mentioned, but keep beating that dead horse.

Also Porkins died due to malfunction, which I always really liked about his unfortunate character.

They don't explain that in the movie.

He just says he's alright and that he can hold it and then explosion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
There is not even an explanation why Darth Vader shows up in a special ship or what it does that is special. He just has a special ship because Vader.

True, but it isn't really a major plot point. He's just got a really really big Star Destroyer which we see a couple times, never even gets named on-screen, and it gets destroyed at the battle of Endor.

I think D is talking about his TIE fighter from the first movie.

It took 6 whole movies to explain why Darth Vader sounds like a rusty scuba mask.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
It's almost as if the heroes always seem to survive in a Star Wars movie.

I would add that "plot armour" is hardly exclusive to Star Wars movies.

Oh oops. But my point still applies.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Your answer is terrible then, look at the bit you quoted then your answer... but the lack of Special TIE fighters using their toys was something I too noticed throughout the movie.

No one really cares what you did or didn't notice. Also, judging by almost all of your 'complaints,' it's pretty obvious you didn't notice a lot of what was going on.

Plus, they did use their "special weapons" like I previously mentioned, but keep beating that dead horse.

Also Porkins died due to malfunction, which I always really liked about his unfortunate character.

They don't explain that in the movie.

He just says he's alright and that he can hold it and then explosion.

No I am very sure he goes "I got a problem here" and then panic as people say "pull up etc" and then death. But I guess you missed that obvious bit of dialogue.

"I've got a problem here."
"Eject."
"I can hold it."
"Pull up!"
"No, I'm all—Aargh!"

And thus ended Porkins. Maybe your brain was shut off during that bit though, probably why you could handle the new movie 5 times in the space of a month haha

In all seriousness you said the special tie fighters use their abilities a lot (turrets, missiles and shields etc), but just saying they do doesn't make it true. Like I said I may have missed it.

 Swastakowey wrote:
No I am very sure he goes "I got a problem here" and then panic as people say "pull up etc" and then death. But I guess you missed that obvious bit of dialogue.

"I've got a problem here."
"Eject."
"I can hold it."
"Pull up!"
"No, I'm all—Aargh!"

That doesn't tell you that he had a malfunction, just that he had a 'problem'. That problem could be anything from that his wing suddenly fell off, to acid reflux, to that he just caught a laserbolt with his left buttock, for all we know.

And thus ended Porkins. Maybe your brain was shut off during that bit though, probably why you could handle the new movie 5 times in the space of a month haha

That was uneccessary.

We're talking about space opera here. There's room for differing opinions without the need for insults.

 insaniak wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
No I am very sure he goes "I got a problem here" and then panic as people say "pull up etc" and then death. But I guess you missed that obvious bit of dialogue.

"I've got a problem here."
"Eject."
"I can hold it."
"Pull up!"
"No, I'm all—Aargh!"

That doesn't tell you that he had a malfunction, just that he had a 'problem'. That problem could be anything from that his wing suddenly fell off, to acid reflux, to that he just caught a laserbolt with his left buttock, for all we know.

And thus ended Porkins. Maybe your brain was shut off during that bit though, probably why you could handle the new movie 5 times in the space of a month haha

That was uneccessary.

We're talking about space opera here. There's room for differing opinions without the need for insults.

Well in an aircraft, when someone flying it goes "I have a problem" it normally means "something is wrong with my aircraft". A quick google suggest most people saw that. For all we know his aircraft plays up and he loses control and then dies, like the dialogue suggests? Anyway this was off topic, but Porkins definitely does not die from nothing.

I was just joking, im sure he is not insulted.

 insaniak wrote:
That problem could be ... acid reflux.

I think that's a given, Pokins probably chugged down a 16oz milkshake before take off.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I was just joking, im sure he is not insulted.

He's not the only one who will read it though. You lose a lot of credibility in the eyes of other people following the conversation when you start dropping needless insults.

 Smacks wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
That problem could be ... acid reflux.

I think that's a given, Pokins probably chugged down a 16oz milkshake before take off.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I was just joking, im sure he is not insulted.

He's not the only one who will read it though. You lose a lot of credibility in the eyes of other people following the conversation when you start dropping needless insults.

He said " it's pretty obvious you didn't notice a lot of what was going on" and since he missed Prokins demise I said what I said, I just found it funny him saying that but seconds later claiming Porkins simply died etc.

I suppose there is a chance the death stars gravity took him down but his death was warning to X-Wing mechanics all over the Galaxy. Something not to be taken lightly.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Well in an aircraft, when someone flying it goes "I have a problem" it normally means "something is wrong with my aircraft".

Something is often wrong with an aircraft immediately after it has been shot...

But yes... topic...

I'm not really sure what people are expecting the SF ties to have been doing to show off their advanced capabilities. A hyperdrive isn't much use in a dogfight, and shielding isn't something that has ever been shown in any visible way on fighters in any of the Star Wars movies.

That just leaves the heavy cannons and missile launchers... which are specialised ordnance presumably just used for specific attacks. I honestly can't remember if you see them being used in the dogfights or not... but I'm not really seeing that as an issue. The Millennium Falcon has concussion missile launchers, and we've only seen them used once in 4 movies so far, and only at the one time that it mattered that the ship had them... I never saw that as a plot hole, but simply as something that was used when it was needed, and not used the rest of the time.

 insaniak wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

Well in an aircraft, when someone flying it goes "I have a problem" it normally means "something is wrong with my aircraft".

Something is often wrong with an aircraft immediately after it has been shot...

He didn't get shot though. So unless it was off screen then there was something up with his craft. More likely there was something wrong with his craft since the Tie Fighters had not attacked yet and they could evade the turret defenses relatively ok.

Also if you get shot and your aircraft is not functioning properly that is also called a malfunction technically.

 Swastakowey wrote:
He said " it's pretty obvious you didn't notice a lot of what was going on" and since he missed Prokins demise I said what I said, I just found it funny him saying that but seconds later claiming Porkins simply died etc.

I suppose there is a chance the death stars gravity took him down but his death was warning to X-Wing mechanics all over the Galaxy. Something not to be taken lightly.

I read what was said, I guess remarks about peoples' brain just sound more snide than saying someone "didn't notice". I believe you that you were just joking, but FYI not everyone will read it the way you intended, (I didn't read it as a friendly joke, I thought it came across needlessly rude).

As for Porkin death, even if it was a surprise malfunction (which isn't 100% clear in the film), that's almost worse than him getting shot. Imagine if an Empire tie fighter just spontaneously blew up for "unknown" reasons, while chasing the heroes. Would you not consider that some pretty unbelievable plot protection?

 Smacks wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
He said " it's pretty obvious you didn't notice a lot of what was going on" and since he missed Prokins demise I said what I said, I just found it funny him saying that but seconds later claiming Porkins simply died etc.

I suppose there is a chance the death stars gravity took him down but his death was warning to X-Wing mechanics all over the Galaxy. Something not to be taken lightly.

I read what was said, I guess remarks about peoples' brain just sound more snide than saying someone "didn't notice". I believe you that you were just joking, but FYI not everyone will read it the way you intended, (I didn't read it as a friendly joke, I thought it came across needlessly rude).

As for Porkin death, even if it was a surprise malfunction (which isn't 100% clear in the film), that's almost worse than him getting shot. Imagine if a Empire tie fighter just spontaneously blew up for "unknown" reasons, while chasing the heroes. Would you not consider that some pretty unbelievable plot protection?

If the Tie Fighter Pilot said "Somethings wrong" and it started jerking the pilot around violently then exploded after other pilots tried verbally guiding him then that would be fine... not if it simply exploded however.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
They use their turret in the Battle of Takodana and according to the Star Wars website,

Can you provide a link to that page? I am unable to find it.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
the red stripe is to denote rank.

The official Star Wars site disagrees with you. The red flashes denote Special Forces pilots. The kind who would fly a TIE/Special Forces.

Again, why isn't this special forces pilot- sent to secure the massively important BB-8- flying the inferior TIE just 20 minutes after we're show it exists?

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
They don't explain that in the movie.

Not everything has to be explained if it can be inferred. A ship in combat suffering a malfunction is one such thing. Darth Vader having a special, custom TIE is another. These are inferred from previous known facts. Namely that ships in combat suffer breakage and Vader is a special character. The TIE/sf has no such foreshadowing. It's simply there, perfect, for the characters to take. Let me stress again, I didn't call this unrealistic that such a TIE would exist, or be beyond Finn's knowledge. I said it was lazy writing to introduce perfect solutions exactly when needed.

 insaniak wrote:
We know that a two-seater TIE exists when we see it. Ultimately, I'm not seeing how the two of them jumping into a two-seater TIE is any different to them jumping into any other two-seater ship.

The problem, at least for me, comes in that this is a TIE fighter, but it has so many extra bits bolted on purely to justify the scene it might as well be another ship. They could have taken a shuttle, as Bob said and this would all be avoided. No need for /sf to show up later being awesome. It smacks of really, really wanting them in a TIE and just bolting on tech until the TIE fits the bill. That is, as I said, lazy writing. It would be mitigated if these enhancements were seen consistently, but they're not. At best we have a claim that somewhere in there a TIE used a turret- but zero demonstration of the other abilities.. By all means, introduce new 2 man TIEs with awesome abilities. But don't do it just for the heroes to escape. Actually put them in there. Show us X-wing pilots dodging missiles, getting caught off guard by the turret or taking a few hits on those heavy shields. Not doing so, after creating your special TIE, is again, lazy and shows the writer's hand in the escape.

 insaniak wrote:
Why are you assuming that all special forces TIEs are two-seaters?

Because canon sources say they are.

This is a TIE/fo, one of the two from Jakku. It lacks the launchers, the sensor package, the red hull marking and the turret. It is clearly not a TIE/sf. There's no good reason to send elite pilots in inferior ships to secure massively important information. But heavy shields, tracking missiles and a turret would all make Rey and Finn's already impressive (many would say too impressive) escape even less plausible.

Gods I wish people would stop posting for a bit..

I'm not really sure what people are expecting the SF ties to have been doing to show off their advanced capabilities...That just leaves the heavy cannons and missile launchers...

I gave a perfect example earlier for the Jakku village. You could demonstrate 2 seats, life support, the turret and shielding/durability (contrasted with the easily destroyed X-wing). All you need to do is cut Mr useless 'I have a flame thrower'. Done. /sf capabilities established. Now finding one in the hangar isn't a case of 'look the perfect tool, how convenient' but a case of 'look, that thing we expect to be in the hangar'.

The life support is a big one, because no TIE has ever had it previously. And the /sf pilots even still wear life support suits. There's no need for it. It serves only to facilitate the characters escape.

 Kojiro wrote:

Can you provide a link to that page? I am unable to find it.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
the red stripe is to denote rank.

The official Star Wars site disagrees with you. The red flashes denote Special Forces pilots. The kind who would fly a TIE/Special Forces.

Again, why isn't this special forces pilot- sent to secure the massively important BB-8- flying the inferior TIE just 20 minutes after we're show it exists?

That same page also says that they fly normal TIE/fos. Just saying.
It's also probable that the more powerful weapons of a TIE/sf would destroy the massively important BB-8. Certainly, they'd more likely destroy it than a TIE/fo.

I never knew Porkins didn't get shot down.

Just re-watched that scene. Immediately after declaring he's got a problem the screen flashes to crossfire from the death star turrets.


I'd always inferred he'd been hounded by ties into a shooting lane.


Man, the Original Trilogy sucks!

 Kojiro wrote:
The problem, at least for me, comes in that this is a TIE fighter, but it has so many extra bits bolted on purely to justify the scene it might as well be another ship. They could have taken a shuttle, as Bob said and this would all be avoided. No need for /sf to show up later being awesome. It smacks of really, really wanting them in a TIE and just bolting on tech until the TIE fits the bill. That is, as I said, lazy writing.

So... just to confirm here... you consider that the writer having them jump in a shuttle would be less lazy than creating a new class of ship specifically for that scene...?


I suspect that you and I have a different definition of 'lazy'... Mine tends to rely on less work being required.

Because canon sources say they are.

Your canon source says that Special Forces pilots fly both regular TIEs and the sf TIE...

There's no good reason to send elite pilots in inferior ships to secure massively important information.

Unless you already have all of your available superior ships being piloted by other elite pilots...

Bear in mind that Finn and Poe made a bit of a mess of the launch bay where the sf TIEs were being stored... So it seems entirely likely that some of them would have still been out of action come battle-time.

Gods I wish people would stop posting for a bit..

I know, right? How dare people disagree with you on the internet?

I gave a perfect example earlier for the Jakku village. You could demonstrate 2 seats, life support, the turret and shielding/durability (contrasted with the easily destroyed X-wing). All you need to do is cut Mr useless 'I have a flame thrower'. Done. /sf capabilities established.

Sure. But for what purpose? We find out that there is a two-seater TIE with life support, shields and a turret when Finn and Poe steal one. Why waste screen time earlier on showing us something that we're going to find out anyway at a time when it's actually relevant?

Now finding one in the hangar isn't a case of 'look the perfect tool, how convenient' but a case of 'look, that thing we expect to be in the hangar'.

Yes, it would be completely unexpected to find the TIE/sfs in the TIE/sf hangar...

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

It's also probable that the more powerful weapons of a TIE/sf would destroy the massively important BB-8. Certainly, they'd more likely destroy it than a TIE/fo.

The main armament is identical- 2x L-s9.6 laser cannons. They are precisely as likely to destroy BB-8. If you're concerned about overpowered main cannons, that is precisely the time you'd send a fighter with a lighter, more accurate turret weapon. A dedicated gunner who can focus on disabling the target would also be a plus here.

They even had Finn know where the garbage compactor was for the sake of plot, and they didn't even have the courtesy of including a flashback to his janitorial days to explain why he knows...

 d-usa wrote:
They even had Finn know where the garbage compactor was for the sake of plot, and they didn't even have the courtesy of including a flashback to his janitorial days to explain why he knows...

Yeah... the opening crawl really should have disolved to an artsy shot of a mop bucket eclipsing a window. Pan out to Finn frantically trying to clean the rec room floor before the lunch rush.

God, that woudl have been exciting!

 insaniak wrote:
So... just to confirm here... you consider that the writer having them jump in a shuttle would be less lazy than creating a new class of ship specifically for that scene...?


I suspect that you and I have a different definition of 'lazy'... Mine tends to rely on less work being required.

In fairness, pulling something out of your ass to fit a scene (ad hoc), is lazy writing, as it takes less effort than working in something consistent that was already foreshadowed/established earlier in the story.

Not that that is what I believe happened in this case.