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So playing in the old school a chapter is equal to 1000 Marines... however, looking at the most recent codex a chapter is well over 1000 marines now, as commands are completely separate (command squads are no where on the list so do they come from 1st company or are they pulled from the company they represent?)

for example...

ultramarines

100 per company
+captain librarian chaplain
+command squad
+27 honor guard
+27 techmarines
+10ish apothecaries
+ tank crew

which would come out to around 1120ish marines...

However, would it be a fair representation on the table of having the tanks count as a marine (since they are driving it) and land speeders counting as 2 and so on?

Meaning that rather than having 1000 marines in power armor just having 1000 models would suffice (except pods as they hold no crew) ???

Looking to get some feed back here as it heavily determines my next batch of purchases.


Furthermore, when putting it on a table would be acceptable to pull from the 9th company as the drivers of the tanks? possibly pulling from one of the reserve companies to fly the planes and and drive the rhinos?

Ha ha.

There are 1000 troops who do marine things. I your job is to pull a trigger or drive, you're a marine. If your job is to be an officer, e.g. A medical officer or a scientist, then your main job is something one degree removed from fighting so you're not really a marine.

I think I am the most orthodox on this, which is that each tank would count for two marines because the have two crew, except that rhinos have only one crew and count for only one.

So every marine whose job is to shoot things or be at least shot at, e.g. Rhino drivers. Command squads too, they are usually informal groups or secondments.


Some people might tell you different, but that means you would mostly have to make up a uniform, a rank, etc.

Pelican that is what I was thinking as well, because 1000 marines is a 1000 marines... I could even see the commanders and chapter master (as well as libbys and chaps) being extra... but we are talking like 1020-1030 guys tops... the new book has an easy 1120 marines and I find that to be complete $#%* as the codex astartes says 1000

It’s an argument that gets tossed around from time to time. 1,000 literal, or 10 companies of 100 fighting marines (plus support, drivers, command, etc). Which if you do the math works out closer to 1,500.

I’m more of a believer in the “fighting force” of 1,000 marines and don’t count the drivers etc as part of that. Both sides have their adherents. Pick whichever one you think is cooler and run with that.

A chapter is at least 1,000,000 to be relevant. But that's in another thread.

Thyhadras wrote:
..... and I find that to be complete $#%* as the codex astartes says 1000

Are you sure?
I would like to see the source, a nice quote of a GW publication if you please?

As far as I know, 1000 marines = 10 Sqads organized in 10 Companies, is what GW wrote in Codices. Nothing about an limit of a Chapter set to 1000 SM.

Haven't seen an agreement on this subject since I joined the Hobby in 3rd Ed.
I'am sure GW made pics of a Chapter with more than 1000 Space Marines and they also offered a "Ultramarine Chapter deal" online, which had more than 1000...plastic..SM..., a little bit expensive too..so maybe no one bought that.

From every space marine codex Robutte Guiliman plainly stated that each chapter would have no more than 1000 marines.


(when I get home I will pull page number and paragraph for you)

Thyhadras wrote:
From every space marine codex Robutte Guiliman plainly stated that each chapter would have no more than 1000 marines.


(when I get home I will pull page number and paragraph for you)

Yeah it's in the fluff somewhere. They did it so no one chapter master/primarch could do what Horus and the other traitors did.

Thyhadras wrote:
From every space marine codex Robutte Guiliman plainly stated that each chapter would have no more than 1000 marines.

Page ?

There are very few quotes of Roboute Gulliman and: "no more than 1000" doesn't sound like I could find it in Codices from 3rd / 4th / 5th / 6th Edition of WH 40k, no matter if it is a blue, green, red or grey Space marines book.


There are mutliple charts and listings where GW never used any specialist or command staff etc as part of the 1000 marines idea , so its just ... GW.

(initial research is leading to not "no more than 1000" to "about 1000" which means that it is very much so open to interpretation as you about is different than my about)

Since the Space Wolves are considered a "very large Chapter" because they do not follow the Codex Astartes, and have roughly 1500 Marines (per their latest Codex), we're left to assume that a "standard" Chapter is somewhere south of this number.

If the "average" Chapter's numbers were only, say, 1200-1400 Marines, then the Space Wolves having 1500 would not really be that big of a deal. If the expected cap is 1000 Marines, then a Chapter with half again as many numbers is notable.

Black Templars have up to 6,000, according to their 4th edition codex. Read more here: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Black_Templars

IIRC vehicle drivers are drawn from the reserve companies, and thus do not enhance the strength of the chapter.

I would posit that most chapters, if at full strength, would have something over 1000 marines, but not to a huge degree, perhaps an extra 10-70 marines which would be officers, specialists, etc.

However, given that most Chapters are (supposedly) engaging in battle frequently, and that replacements take a significant amount of time, I would hazard that most typically would operate under-strength and well under that "1000" limit, just as any military unit engaged in combat is likely to do.

If you read through and added the numbers if the crusades that were active during that codex then it looked around 3000 marines during the time, however, that also includes the initiates.

However, they were also under strict scrutiny from the inquisition and still are because of their numbers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lets rephrase this a bit, if you were going to put down a chapter to play a game would you use 1000 marines plus tanks plus HQ or would you use 1000 marines including tanks plus HQ models?

Second one.

It's pretty straightforward that there are enlisted style jobs and commissioned style jobs. If you don't think that applies, you should consider that most fields have a divide between technical workers who do the actual work and doctors/officers etcetera who make decisions.

I would posit that most chapters, if at full strength, would have something over 1000 marines, but not to a huge degree, perhaps an extra 10-70 marines which would be officers, specialists, etc.

The two big numbers are, first, that a chapter has a lot of plasma reactors, rhino-hull fabrication plants, ships to repair, and sophisticated machine spirits in land raiders and ships, but all of their tech priests appear to be marines (the Ultramarines and Blood Angels have greater than 30 techmarines), and second, that the specialties do all their own training, so the apothecaries and librarians have to staff their own medical schools and librarian colleges in addition to the field surgeons and intelligence officer -style librarians (Blood Angels and Ultramarines have ~30 librarians).

I added up all the marines in the digital codex from the ultramarines and excluding scouts i got 998 i think, that was including command and support so i think it's literally 1000 marines

Thyhadras wrote:

Lets rephrase this a bit, if you were going to put down a chapter to play a game would you use 1000 marines plus tanks plus HQ or would you use 1000 marines including tanks plus HQ models?

If I had to deploy a Chapter, I would use 1 choice of a Squads Options of Transportation and I wouldn't footslog them.
So basically 10 Companies plus HQ plus Vehicles from the Arsenal ( Battletanks etc ).

1.) Co :
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105-107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads.

2.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

3.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

4.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

5.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

6.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

7.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

8.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads ( many Jumppacks or Bikes or Landspeeders instead of vehicles are possible )

9.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - 107 Infantry Models , 1-3 Dreads

10.) Co:
- Command + 10 Squads , 11 Vehicles / 105 - +X ( because the size of the scout co is not set in stone ) Infantry Models

Heavy support:
- Predators, Vindicators, Whirlwinds, Land Raiders etc. ( Squads could make sense.. ). Land Raiders max 3, Rhino-chassis based vehicles in Squads of 3 / maybe 12 - 24 Tanks

Air support:
- Fliers ( the models de-chibified of course ) , maybe 5 - 10.

HQ:
- Chapter Master + Friends , 10 - 30 Models , plus 2-3 Vehicles. ( Honor Guard + Leaders of the Reclusiam, Librarius , Apothecarion, Armory. )

non-Space marines:
- servitors to accompany the Techmarines. Maybe 3-5 per Techmarine.


2 different methods :

- Option A: Transported Models shown beside their Transports. Crews won't leave their vehicles. Just imagine the crews. ( Could use SM models without Squads markings if I had some to represent crew )
- Option B: Only Transports and Models shown who either footslog or are not hidden ( bikers, Landspeeder crew, etc ) .


This would never fit into the 1000 limit and it doesn't have to. You are free to show a Chapter depleted ( squads missing , only at half strength ) if you want less than 1000 on the table. I support the: 1000 = battle brothers of the line Interpretation of the codices.
Roboute Gulliman himself made it clear his book isn't a holy book of laws and shouldn't be used to literally too . ( HH series ).

Vehicles can be crewed by members of the Reserve Company (which still counts against the Chapters strength) or by Chapter Serfs or Servitors (which don't).

Legend says there is one marine for every time this thread is started.

Only reason I am asking is because next August I week be fielding an entire chapter at gw world of battle and want to make sure I have a good representation of a chapter. .. (for those making comments about this post occurring)

I am not to worried about the arguing about chapter size just about how many models I have to have

You could probably Google the "Entire Ultramarines Chapter" set that GW was selling last year for an ungodly sum to get an idea.

Psi that is a fanned good idea

The article related to that search states:
This Space Marine Chapter is made up of 1 Veteran Company, 4 Battle Companies, 4 Reserve Companies, and 1 Scout Company, with roughly 100 Space Marines in each. You will also receive all the codex-specified vehicles and support units that go with them. Be sure to have a look through the Company-by-Company photo guide above to see the chapter in all its glory.

Suggests that the 1000 man estimate is for for the main companies, and does not include the command and support structure to go along with them.
1200 Models includes Vehicles, almost 50 Rhinos in and of themselves, so I highly recommend reading the article as it has a break down of how many of each Model is included.

http://apocalypse40k.blogspot.com/2013/09/gw-offers-entire-space-marine-chapter.html

I could see Chapters using the fact that all of the Command groups such as Honour Guard, Command Squads, Chaplains, Techmarines, and Librarians don't count toward their 1000 marine number to their advantage. Though it is unlikely that the reserve companies and scout company would sport a Command Squad, the four battle companies and veteran company certainly would. Every Chapter Master likely has an Honour Guard for protection. Librarians, chaplains, and Techmarines are necessary components of the army, but don't fit into the normal structure, though every Company has a Chaplain overseeing it alongside the Captain. Most schematics for Rhinos and whatnot do afford them a driver on top of the squad, so they probably don't count either.

So maximum number of marines a normal Chapter has is probably around 1200 or so, but with attrition from a near constant state of war, most Chapters possess far fewer than that.

Only one person above has really mentioned that scouts probably don't count towards the total.

 Fifty wrote:
Only one person above has really mentioned that scouts probably don't count towards the total.

they are one of the companies with 100 marines. Why wouldn't they count?

Cas the last two codex did not mention number of scout just that the are scout squad s

It's funny because I would more vote for a No, it will be a bit under 1000 most of the time.

In the 3rd edition codex there is a picture of the full Ultramarine chapter in the front (mostly older sculpts) and a table of organization near the back. The TOE is a snapshot in time, and shows some companies understrength.

Some things will certainly fall outside of the standard structure of a chapter. Librarians, for example, can't really have a set limit; you have what you have. Techmarines are much the same, you have as many as you need (probably quite a lot more than most would think, given that every ship needs at least one, need a few in the chapter's forges, need a few overseeing the stasis vaults holding the dreadnoughts and other relics, need others in the field maintaining stuff, and so on. Honor guard probably also fall outside of the organization, as their duties are non standard (ceremonial guards for relics and sacred places within in the chapter's fortress, guarding the chapter master and others like the chief librarian and so on).