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Charistoph wrote:
The relationship between Unsaved Wounds, FNP/RP, and other triggers is a lot like the relationship between Ordnance Weapons and non- Ordnance on Vehicles.

There is nothing requiring you to process Ordnance Weapons first, so if you Fire it last, it is too late for it affect other Weapons. This is a jerk move, though, and can see a player losing future games by it.

By placing the trigger of an UnSaved Wound before it can be Saved in a different way, is just like firing Ordnance Weapons last. You can do it, and it is RAW, but stupid.

Except that ordnance weapons say you can only snapfire your other weapons. If you fired them, and it wasnt snapfire, you cant fire the ordnance weapon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Konrax wrote:
Honestly I have a good friend who plays necrons all the time and I just want to have an idea about how people feel it works. I'm heading home from work and I'm going to check the rules if I can find something to support either argument.

I would just say in his turn the black mace goes first, in your turn reanimation protocols goes first. This way its a 50/50 of who has the benefit, and if its a good friend, im sure just playing it fair to both parties will be the best solution?

I agree completely but if there is a valid enough point that swings it either way it wouldn't have to be an issue then.

It could just be rules collision where there is no real answer in which case we would either come to an agreement or switch each turn as suggested.

First, as for RP: it specifically says in the rule that RP can't be taking againts a wound with the "remove from play" if the Black Mace has the "remove from play" RP can't be used. (I can't believe no one has said that)

It looks like that clause at the end of the FNP rule state that wounds saved in this manner are treated as saves so I would say it would not trigger the black mace.

However there would be no FNP save for failed toughness tests caused afterwards.

Seems like the FNP rule can and can't be a save at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wallur wrote:
First, as for RP: it specifically says in the rule that RP can't be taking againts a wound with the "remove from play" if the Black Mace has the "remove from play" RP can't be used. (I can't believe no one has said that)

Would it be possible to post the rule?

Second: As for FNP, the wound has been taken wether you discount it or not. So, even if your model stays at his Max numer of wounds, it still suffered it and discarded, but was suffered, since FNP requieres your model to suffer a wound to trigger. SO:
Wound was suffered? Yes -> Black Mace removes model from play


Automatically Appended Next Post:

REANIMATION PROTOCOLS wrote:
When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Reanimation Protocols roll to avoid being wounded. This is not a saving throw and so can be used against attacks that state ‘no saves of any kind are allowed’.
Reanimation Protocols rolls may even be taken against hits with the Instant Death special rule, but cannot be used against hits from Destroyer weapons or any special rule or attack that states that the model is ‘removed from play’. Roll a D6 each time the model suffers an unsaved Wound, subtracting 1 from the result if the hit that inflicted the Wound had the Instant Death special rule. On a 5+, discount the unsaved Wound – treat it as having been saved. Certain special rules and wargear items can provide modifiers to this dice roll; these are cumulative, but the required dice roll can never be improved to be better than 4+.
If a unit has both the Reanimation Protocols and Feel No Pain special rules, you can choose to use one special rule or the other to attempt to avoid the Wound, but not both.
Choose which of the two special rules you will use each time a model suffers an unsaved Wound.

I think because the mace triggers at the end of the phase and says any unsaved wounds, and FNP says count the wounds as if they were saved, and the end of the phase cant occur until FNP roles are done, then the mace wouldn't trigger on FNP saves.

Edit: Actually the wound caused by a failed save must immediately take a toughness test according to the black mace. So I would assume it needs to pass the test first, if it does then it may roll the FNP / RP

However toughness tests after caused by an unsaved wound wound allow no FNP to occur.

Edit 2: The mace states at the end of the phase all enemy units within 3 must make a toughness test or suffer a single wound with no saves of any kind allowed. No FNP can still be taken during those pesky no saves allowed because its not a save but to treat it as if it was saved even though no saves are allowed.

Hmm

Two questions.

When does FNP occur, before or after reducing a models Wounds by 1?

When does a model suffer an unsaved Wound, before or after reducing a models Wounds by 1?

 Happyjew wrote:
Two questions.

When does FNP occur, before or after reducing a models Wounds by 1?

When does a model suffer an unsaved Wound, before or after reducing a models Wounds by 1?

I'd say:
-Allocate Wound
-Roll to Wound (if passed)
-Suffer the Wound
-FNP/RP If valid, if passed, the model does not lose a Wound.
-Lose the wound.

 M0ff3l wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
The relationship between Unsaved Wounds, FNP/RP, and other triggers is a lot like the relationship between Ordnance Weapons and non- Ordnance on Vehicles.

There is nothing requiring you to process Ordnance Weapons first, so if you Fire it last, it is too late for it affect other Weapons. This is a jerk move, though, and can see a player losing future games by it.

By placing the trigger of an UnSaved Wound before it can be Saved in a different way, is just like firing Ordnance Weapons last. You can do it, and it is RAW, but stupid.

Except that ordnance weapons say you can only snapfire your other weapons. If you fired them, and it wasnt snapfire, you cant fire the ordnance weapon.

Now you're getting it.

Charistoph wrote:

 M0ff3l wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
The relationship between Unsaved Wounds, FNP/RP, and other triggers is a lot like the relationship between Ordnance Weapons and non- Ordnance on Vehicles.

There is nothing requiring you to process Ordnance Weapons first, so if you Fire it last, it is too late for it affect other Weapons. This is a jerk move, though, and can see a player losing future games by it.

By placing the trigger of an UnSaved Wound before it can be Saved in a different way, is just like firing Ordnance Weapons last. You can do it, and it is RAW, but stupid.

Except that ordnance weapons say you can only snapfire your other weapons. If you fired them, and it wasnt snapfire, you cant fire the ordnance weapon.

Now you're getting it.

I fail to see your point. Care to explain?

Cheers

Andrew

FnP/RP turns a unsaved wound into a saved one. How can that still let things that only occur on unsaved wounds (that now don't exist) to happen?

 Vector Strike wrote:
FnP/RP turns a unsaved wound into a saved one. How can that still let things that only occur on unsaved wounds (that now don't exist) to happen?

It doesn't. But anyone will try and find a loop hole for everything. It's human nature to attempt to disprove anything you don't agree with, even if it means twisting words or making things up. Ipso facto, this whole thread.

Because if a model is removed from play because of a special ability, why does it get to take a FnP roll?

It works both ways, each rule cancels out the other.

You can't claim FnP has a priority over other special rules that activate on the same trigger event because there is no such grounding in the rules. The only ruling there is on simultaneous rules, because lets face it they both activate at the same time, is that the player whos' turn it is decides which goes first.

Cheers

Andrew

The loope hole is the rule of FNP itself.

It's not a save... When suffers a wound... Treat it like it has been saved.
As they said, all depends on the order of resolving.
First, the wound has to be suffered to roll FNP. After you succed FNP you treat it like saved.

Wallur wrote:
The loop hole is the rule of FNP itself.

It's not a save... When suffers a wound... Treat it like it has been saved.
As they said, all depends on the order of resolving.
First, the wound has to be suffered to roll FNP. After you succeed FNP you treat it like saved.

Pretty much. The Black Mace's Wound isn't Remove From Play until after the Toughness Test. The Toughness Test itself is triggered by an Unsaved Wound. FNP/RP can prevent the Toughness Test from happening in the first place and is not blocked by the Black Mace's initial Wounding itself, only failing the Toughness Test ignores FNP/RP.

So, much like Ordnance causing an affect "previous" in time, so, too, can RP/FNP prevent Black Mace's Toughness Test from even initiating.

 AndrewC wrote:
Because if a model is removed from play because of a special ability, why does it get to take a FnP roll?

It works both ways, each rule cancels out the other.

You can't claim FnP has a priority over other special rules that activate on the same trigger event because there is no such grounding in the rules. The only ruling there is on simultaneous rules, because lets face it they both activate at the same time, is that the player whos' turn it is decides which goes first.

Cheers

Andrew

Yes you can claim FnP has a priority because if you use FNP you no longer have an unsaved wound. We have to roll FNP first, if we don't we don't know if we have an unsaved wound or not.

HIWPI;


1. Player turn decides order of rule resolution. If the first passes the second never goes.

2. Would not still count as a unsaved wound after if FNP is passed.


I realize #2 is in direct conflict with a current FAQ, but with kak wording of FNP, no other FAQ'd comparisons and how hot this issue is already it's fair to cut it some slack.

Evidently I disagree with some people on point 1#, Which I believe to be RAW. I have pages and pages on why already and have no desire to get pulled back into the FNP roundabout. If anyone wishes to read further;
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/635145.page#7581340
Or search my post history for FNP.

Nem, the problem with 1 is that means for 1 Wound models, most of the time FNP does nothing.

Consider:
You have a unit of Plague Marines (1 Wound, with FNP). I light them up and (after saves) have inflicted 5 Wounds. Since it is my turn, I decide order of things that happen at the same time, right? So I decide to have the Wounds characteristic on a the model be reduced by 1, and immediately be removed as a casualty. Now the model is RFP and you do not get your FNP.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 AndrewC wrote:
Because if a model is removed from play because of a special ability, why does it get to take a FnP roll?

It works both ways, each rule cancels out the other.

You can't claim FnP has a priority over other special rules that activate on the same trigger event because there is no such grounding in the rules. The only ruling there is on simultaneous rules, because lets face it they both activate at the same time, is that the player whos' turn it is decides which goes first.

Cheers

Andrew

Yes you can claim FnP has a priority because if you use FNP you no longer have an unsaved wound. We have to roll FNP first, if we don't we don't know if we have an unsaved wound or not.

That's good,can you please provide the page and paragraph that states FnP has that priority? Also we know that we have an unsaved wound, because if we didn't so wouldn't be rolling for FnP would we?

Happy, the problem I see with your objection is that we already know that advanced rules take precedence over basic rules. And FnP meets all the criteria for advanced and wound resolution meets the description for basic, so it's not a great leap or conclusion to see that FnP must be resolved before wound resolution and removing models from play. So when two rules both with the same trigger event occurs I see no problem with the player turn deciding the order of resolution.

Cheers

Andrew

There is no rule that take effect which states "when a model suffers a wound, remove that model." Happyjew

So no. Your example isn't valid because there is nothing forcing your model to die yet. But as soon as it suffered an unsaved wound FNP activates and, if you save, you will not have taken a wound.

Charistoph wrote:

Wallur wrote:
The loop hole is the rule of FNP itself.

It's not a save... When suffers a wound... Treat it like it has been saved.
As they said, all depends on the order of resolving.
First, the wound has to be suffered to roll FNP. After you succeed FNP you treat it like saved.

Pretty much. The Black Mace's Wound isn't Remove From Play until after the Toughness Test. The Toughness Test itself is triggered by an Unsaved Wound. FNP/RP can prevent the Toughness Test from happening in the first place and is not blocked by the Black Mace's initial Wounding itself, only failing the Toughness Test ignores FNP/RP.

So, much like Ordnance causing an affect "previous" in time, so, too, can RP/FNP prevent Black Mace's Toughness Test from even initiating.

The black mace says take a toughness test immediately after an unsaved wound, and since FNP is not a save you must immediately take a toughness test. Then if the test is passed you can FNP the wound that was caused earlier to count it as if it was saved.

Happyjew wrote:Nem, the problem with 1 is that means for 1 Wound models, most of the time FNP does nothing.

Consider:
You have a unit of Plague Marines (1 Wound, with FNP). I light them up and (after saves) have inflicted 5 Wounds. Since it is my turn, I decide order of things that happen at the same time, right? So I decide to have the Wounds characteristic on a the model be reduced by 1, and immediately be removed as a casualty. Now the model is RFP and you do not get your FNP.

It's different: There are steps before decreasing the Wound Characteristic.
-Roll a Save
-Apply all rules that state "when failed/passed save -> in this step is that you roll FNP/RP/Black Mace
-Decrease Wound Characteristic.

And as we are told in the BRB, when multiple rules happen at the same time, the player whose turn is decide the order.
If it is my turn and I'm charging with the black mace and hit and wound, y decide Black mace goes before FNP. If I'm still locked in combat next turn, my opponent would decide the other way.

Konrax wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Wallur wrote:
The loop hole is the rule of FNP itself.

It's not a save... When suffers a wound... Treat it like it has been saved.
As they said, all depends on the order of resolving.
First, the wound has to be suffered to roll FNP. After you succeed FNP you treat it like saved.

Pretty much. The Black Mace's Wound isn't Remove From Play until after the Toughness Test. The Toughness Test itself is triggered by an Unsaved Wound. FNP/RP can prevent the Toughness Test from happening in the first place and is not blocked by the Black Mace's initial Wounding itself, only failing the Toughness Test ignores FNP/RP.

So, much like Ordnance causing an affect "previous" in time, so, too, can RP/FNP prevent Black Mace's Toughness Test from even initiating.

The black mace says take a toughness test immediately after an unsaved wound, and since FNP is not a save you must immediately take a toughness test. Then if the test is passed you can FNP the wound that was caused earlier to count it as if it was saved.

That is true, since the wound has not the "remove from play" rule, it's a test later on, then RP can be taken... the same way I said above.

No it can't because FNP is not a save, it says that in the rule.

Black mace states you immediately take a toughness test on an unsaved wound after it has occurred, since the only "save" you have has been failed you must "immediately" test. If the test is passed you may ignore the wound caused by the strike after using a FNP roll which would count the wound lost as saved but is not actually considered a save.

Sorry for rules lawyering here but this is the only way to get a real grasp of how these two rules should work with each other.

Edit: if the cursed rule didn't say immediately after, and a removed from play test (like the second part) then a FNP would be warranted.

FratHammer wrote:
There is no rule that take effect which states "when a model suffers a wound, remove that model." Happyjew

So no. Your example isn't valid because there is nothing forcing your model to die yet. But as soon as it suffered an unsaved wound FNP activates and, if you save, you will not have taken a wound.

Never said that. I said that when a model fails its save you reduce the Wound characteristic by 1. If the model only had 1 Wound, then it is immediately removed from play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wallur wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Nem, the problem with 1 is that means for 1 Wound models, most of the time FNP does nothing.

Consider:
You have a unit of Plague Marines (1 Wound, with FNP). I light them up and (after saves) have inflicted 5 Wounds. Since it is my turn, I decide order of things that happen at the same time, right? So I decide to have the Wounds characteristic on a the model be reduced by 1, and immediately be removed as a casualty. Now the model is RFP and you do not get your FNP.

It's different: There are steps before decreasing the Wound Characteristic.
-Roll a Save
-Apply all rules that state "when failed/passed save -> in this step is that you roll FNP/RP/Black Mace
-Decrease Wound Characteristic.

And as we are told in the BRB, when multiple rules happen at the same time, the player whose turn is decide the order.
If it is my turn and I'm charging with the black mace and hit and wound, y decide Black mace goes before FNP. If I'm still locked in combat next turn, my opponent would decide the other way.

Your order is off. Decreasing Wound characteristic is done when failed save occurs, just like FNP. Therefore since it is my choice to choose the order, I can choose to reduce the Wound characteristic before you get to roll for FNP.

 Konrax wrote:
No it can't because FNP is not a save, it says that in the rule.

Black mace states you immediately take a toughness test on an unsaved wound after it has occurred, since the only "save" you have has been failed you must "immediately" test. If the test is passed you may ignore the wound caused by the strike after using a FNP roll which would count the wound lost as saved but is not actually considered a save.

Sorry for rules lawyering here but this is the only way to get a real grasp of how these two rules should work with each other.

Edit: if the cursed rule didn't say immediately after, and a removed from play test (like the second part) then a FNP would be warranted.

Yes but FNP says that if passed you treat the wound as being saved, that means that for all rule purposing it has been saved. Rules that require the wound to be saved apply, rules that require the wound not to be saved, does not apply.
Again, both rules (FNP and Black Mace) Happens at the same time, the way to deal with simultaneous rules has been explained already.

They don't happen at the same time.

The save is failed, you must immediately make a toughness test or be removed. If it did only 1 wound, or didn't say immediately after a failed save you would be right.

FNP is not a save, therefore the only save that could be made has been failed you must immediately test or be removed from play, if passed the wound can be saved, which would indeed negate the toughness test before, if you weren't already removed from the game.

Second part at the end of the phase all models within 3 roll a toughness test or suffer a single wound can also be FNP but only because it doesn't say immediately after a failed save, and that it only causes a single wound.

 Happyjew wrote:


Your order is off. Decreasing Wound characteristic is done when failed save occurs, just like FNP. Therefore since it is my choice to choose the order, I can choose to reduce the Wound characteristic before you get to roll for FNP.

So are you saying that FnP is a basic rule?

Cheers

Andrew

 Happyjew wrote:

Spoiler:

FratHammer wrote:
There is no rule that take effect which states "when a model suffers a wound, remove that model." Happyjew

So no. Your example isn't valid because there is nothing forcing your model to die yet. But as soon as it suffered an unsaved wound FNP activates and, if you save, you will not have taken a wound.

Never said that. I said that when a model fails its save you reduce the Wound characteristic by 1. If the model only had 1 Wound, then it is immediately removed from play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wallur wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Nem, the problem with 1 is that means for 1 Wound models, most of the time FNP does nothing.

Consider:
You have a unit of Plague Marines (1 Wound, with FNP). I light them up and (after saves) have inflicted 5 Wounds. Since it is my turn, I decide order of things that happen at the same time, right? So I decide to have the Wounds characteristic on a the model be reduced by 1, and immediately be removed as a casualty. Now the model is RFP and you do not get your FNP.

It's different: There are steps before decreasing the Wound Characteristic.
-Roll a Save
-Apply all rules that state "when failed/passed save -> in this step is that you roll FNP/RP/Black Mace
-Decrease Wound Characteristic.

And as we are told in the BRB, when multiple rules happen at the same time, the player whose turn is decide the order.
If it is my turn and I'm charging with the black mace and hit and wound, y decide Black mace goes before FNP. If I'm still locked in combat next turn, my opponent would decide the other way.

Your order is off. Decreasing Wound characteristic is done when failed save occurs, just like FNP. Therefore since it is my choice to choose the order, I can choose to reduce the Wound characteristic before you get to roll for FNP.

Rules that say "immediately after failing a save throw" are done before reducing the wound characteristic
The problem is that FNP and Black Mace test, both happen "immediately after failing" both happen at the same time, immediately after failing. Decreasing the wound characteristec is not done immediately after failing, it goes after all the "immediately after failing" things that can be done.

Lets go to the important, Step by step.

Fail the save.
Immediately after I failed, 2 rules are triggered and I have to do 2 things (other rules, procedure that don't have the words "Immediately after Failing a saving throw" can't be called here)
-FNP/RP roll
-Black Mace Toughness Test.

Which do you do first?
If I FNP roll first, then I can treat the wound as if it has been saved, then the Black Mace won't apply because it's wound has been saved for rules purpose.
If Black Mace goes first, and fail the Test, the model is removed from play, so there is no model to roll the FNP/RP (it is removed from game)

Now, how do you decide, wich of 2 things that happen simultaneously is resolved first? BRB says the payer whose turn is, is the one to decide.

FNP is taken after a failed save, immediately after a failed save would take priorty first as the FNP rule doesn't also say immediately after a failed save, it says only after a failed save.

I don't think the player decides this one.

Also FNP can't be taken on wounds that remove from play, so the test would decide if the hit was powerful enough to remove from play first, then a FNP can be taken.

Feel no pain happens at the "roll saves" step. If i remember correctly this happens before determining weapon effects.

In any case, the nurgle dp swings the black mace, wounds someone, that person then takes their FNP to see if they can discount the wound that was caused. If the wound that was caused gets discounted, there is no longer an unsaved wound to trigger the mace's effect. Pretty simple.

This is the power of FNP. If it worked any other way, models would die unless they have more than one wound. I believe FNP also states that it makes unsaved wounds have no effect.. Which i believe the black mace toughness test is definitely an effect of an unsaved wound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Helfrost weapons do the same thing but with strength tests. Feel no pain is meant to remove the effects of unsaved wounds. It discounts their existence entirely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, feel no pain in your interpretation would no longer stop concussive from happening, or blind if there is a weapon causing it on a wound, or FMC grounding tests, or even pinning.