dice requirements for tournaments

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**Dramagod2**

I was curious is anyone knew of any tournaments or had local groups that require you to play with round edged, pipped dice?

I recently switched dice after reading this article. http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
It's created somewhat of a stir at my LGS with some people argueing that using vegas style dice is a form of cheating or at least unfair. My argument is that, if anything, its using dice that are predisposed to roll ones that is more like cheating. I feel like having a dice that has an equal chance of rolling each side is about as fair as you can get. Now my LGS is considering forcing everyone to use round edged dice for events to make it "fair". Is this something that others have encountered in organized play or events? The entire reason I switched dice was to be fair with myself as I felt liek I always rolled crap. Now, I feel like I roll average which is a vast improvement. Is it right for them to force players to use dice that they are basically acknowledging are loaded to roll low?

The issue has been making recent waves so I was curious to see what people here thought. Thanks!

**Jimsolo**

Watch Louis Zocchi's videos. Round edge dice are also uneven.

**Dramagod2**

Jimsolo wrote:
Watch Louis Zocchi's videos. Round edge dice are also uneven.

That's the point. They want us all to use them just so everyone is using the same dice...

**GangstaMuffin24**

Dramagod2 wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
Watch Louis Zocchi's videos. Round edge dice are also uneven.

That's the point. They want us all to use them just so everyone is using the same dice...

Just let people use your dice if they think you're cheating. I only play with a close group of friends so I know they don't cheat (at least with dice) but we still just grab whatever handful of dice is closest.

**Makumba**

They may argue though that you have trained rolling them and there for your rolls are better then theirs, because of it. After that if the judge called is local, there is a high chance he is going to trust someone they know then someone they don't.

**Ghaz**

Casino dice really aren't that much more balanced if they're not used as they were intended to be used (i.e., thrown and not rolled).

http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-precisely-are-precision-dice.html

**ServiceGames**

I've heard the same allegations about Chessex dice. That said, if Chessex dice were truly unbalanced or contunually gave good/bad rolls rather than an average of 50/50, do you think they'd still be in business and booming with the sheer numbers and types of dice avaialble?

I'm not gonig to change from my Chessex Dice. I have the two sets of Chessex 12mm d6 dice that I love and will use for WH. One of them has the colors of Clemson (my alma mater), Auburn (where I almost went to college), and Florida (one of my favorite SEC teams) all on one set. The other set is one of my favorite color combinations in MTG (Golgari for those who play).

If someone has a problem with them or thinks that I'm cheating, then I'm just gonna pack up and walk away from the game. I'm honestly don't have the time or patience to deal with someone complaining about dice.

SG

**Ghaz**

I believe you overestimate the number of players who care that their dice roll statistically accurate versus those who just want cool looking dice that won't break the bank and don't really care (or even know) that their dice might be unbalanced.

**oldzoggy**

If players really cared they would not drill club logo sized holes in them :\

**Jimsolo**

Each mass produced (round edge, like Chessex) die will be differently unbalanced. In the quantities we use it will normally shake out in the wash. Casino dice, thrown or used with a tower, would be more fair, but I don't think it will affect game that much. It's more important for d&d and such, where single die rolls, and a single uneven die, will have a much larger effect.

**jeffersonian000**

I have 60 sharp-edge Bicycle dice for tournaments. They were cheaper than casino dice, yet roll the same. Although, I now have the 40k dice app on my phone, but haven't used it in place of real dice yet.

SJ

**oldzoggy**

^ Ever used 40k vassal ?

The type of simulated randomness in digital die rollers can really affect the game.

**Dramagod2**

ServiceGames wrote:I've heard the same allegations about Chessex dice. That said, if Chessex dice were truly unbalanced or continually gave good/bad rolls rather than an average of 50/50, do you think they'd still be in business and booming with the sheer numbers and types of dice avaialble?
SG

First, War Eagle! (I went to Auburn

)

Second, I do think that that's exactly what they do. I don't think they put any type of research into making sure their dice roll correctly. They just use a giant mold thats based on a cubicle design. Further, I personally have seen over the course of a decade with the same two sets of chessex dice that they rolled a truly inordinate amount of ones. The new vegas dice, I feel, roll much more evenly. They make money on dice because of the aesthetic options they offer, at their core though, they are all the same dice. If you haven't already, read the article above, it has some pretty damning results from a statistical analysis.

Ghaz wrote:I believe you overestimate the number of players who care that their dice roll statistically accurate versus those who just want cool looking dice that won't break the bank and don't really care (or even know) that their dice might be unbalanced.

I really just want to be able to use the vegas dice since I know they roll evenly. I just don't think its right to restrict people to round cornered chessex dice for no other reason than that's what other people are using. Im totally open to my opponent using them and I use the same exact dice for every roll in the game. No switching types. I just don't feel that me using dice that I know roll evenly puts anyone else that choose to use whatever dice they want at a disadvantage.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Makumba wrote:
They may argue though that you have trained rolling them and there for your rolls are better then theirs, because of it. After that if the judge called is local, there is a high chance he is going to trust someone they know then someone they don't.

Lol, its my local club, so we are all local. And the issues isn;t the rolling. I definitely don't do the "drop the dice" kind of rolls. I roll with gusto! Intervening models and terrain be damned!!

**KingGarland**

Dramagod2 wrote:
I was curious is anyone knew of any tournaments or had local groups that require you to play with round edged, pipped dice?

I recently switched dice after reading this article. http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
It's created somewhat of a stir at my LGS with some people argueing that using vegas style dice is a form of cheating or at least unfair. My argument is that, if anything, its using dice that are predisposed to roll ones that is more like cheating. I feel like having a dice that has an equal chance of rolling each side is about as fair as you can get. Now my LGS is considering forcing everyone to use round edged dice for events to make it "fair". Is this something that others have encountered in organized play or events? The entire reason I switched dice was to be fair with myself as I felt liek I always rolled crap. Now, I feel like I roll average which is a vast improvement. Is it right for them to force players to use dice that they are basically acknowledging are loaded to roll low?

The issue has been making recent waves so I was curious to see what people here thought. Thanks!

You are right vegas style dice are vastly more even then rounded. If your LGS is considering that they are F******* morons and should be slapped.

**Dramagod2**

KingGarland wrote:
Dramagod2 wrote:
I was curious is anyone knew of any tournaments or had local groups that require you to play with round edged, pipped dice?

I recently switched dice after reading this article. http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That's_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice
It's created somewhat of a stir at my LGS with some people argueing that using vegas style dice is a form of cheating or at least unfair. My argument is that, if anything, its using dice that are predisposed to roll ones that is more like cheating. I feel like having a dice that has an equal chance of rolling each side is about as fair as you can get. Now my LGS is considering forcing everyone to use round edged dice for events to make it "fair". Is this something that others have encountered in organized play or events? The entire reason I switched dice was to be fair with myself as I felt liek I always rolled crap. Now, I feel like I roll average which is a vast improvement. Is it right for them to force players to use dice that they are basically acknowledging are loaded to roll low?

The issue has been making recent waves so I was curious to see what people here thought. Thanks!

You are right vegas style dice are vastly more even then rounded. If your LGS is considering that they are F******* morons and should be slapped.

lol, well aside from that I just want to be able to use my dice. Im curious to know if anyone else has come across events or tournaments that require players to use round sided dice. My TO says it s a regular thing but I've never heard of it and I know thy dont do that in the ITC. Has anyone else experienced this?

**ultimentra**

My pet peeve is when people simply won't allow me to touch their dice because of superstitions or just because they don't want me to. I have a regular opponent, we both use chessex I think, and I usually roll from average to gakky. His rolls are consistently good, I've played against him multiple times and he rarely fails morale, but his rolling to hit is also way above average consistently. His scatter also hits 5/6 times it feels like. And yet he absolutely will not allow me to touch his dice, simply because "they're his dice".

I just don't get people like this. It's almost depressing to play against him because of the tactic he uses and how good his dice rolls are in comparison to mine. I could wipe the floor with any army if my dice rolled as good as his on a consistent basis. I've bought two cubes sets of chessex dice because the first one rolled like gak. Second one rolls slightly more towards average, but still pretty bad. Or at least, it's bad in my eyes because I can't consistently make 18 or 19/20 3+ to hit rolls.

**Dramagod2**

ultimentra wrote:
My pet peeve is when people simply won't allow me to touch their dice because of superstitions or just because they don't want me to. I have a regular opponent, we both use chessex I think, and I usually roll from average to gakky. His rolls are consistently good, I've played against him multiple times and he rarely fails morale, but his rolling to hit is also way above average consistently. His scatter also hits 5/6 times it feels like. And yet he absolutely will not allow me to touch his dice, simply because "they're his dice".

I just don't get people like this. It's almost depressing to play against him because of the tactic he uses and how good his dice rolls are in comparison to mine. I could wipe the floor with any army if my dice rolled as good as his on a consistent basis. I've bought two cubes sets of chessex dice because the first one rolled like gak. Second one rolls slightly more towards average, but still pretty bad. Or at least, it's bad in my eyes because I can't consistently make 18 or 19/20 3+ to hit rolls.

He may very well be cheating, does he constantly use different dice for different things? I think it even says in the rules that opponents should be allowed to use eachothers dice.

**ultimentra**

Dramagod2 wrote:
ultimentra wrote:
My pet peeve is when people simply won't allow me to touch their dice because of superstitions or just because they don't want me to. I have a regular opponent, we both use chessex I think, and I usually roll from average to gakky. His rolls are consistently good, I've played against him multiple times and he rarely fails morale, but his rolling to hit is also way above average consistently. His scatter also hits 5/6 times it feels like. And yet he absolutely will not allow me to touch his dice, simply because "they're his dice".

I just don't get people like this. It's almost depressing to play against him because of the tactic he uses and how good his dice rolls are in comparison to mine. I could wipe the floor with any army if my dice rolled as good as his on a consistent basis. I've bought two cubes sets of chessex dice because the first one rolled like gak. Second one rolls slightly more towards average, but still pretty bad. Or at least, it's bad in my eyes because I can't consistently make 18 or 19/20 3+ to hit rolls.

He may very well be cheating, does he constantly use different dice for different things? I think it even says in the rules that opponents should be allowed to use eachothers dice.

Nope, he uses the same light blue dice with white pips for everything. I just think his dice roll high and he gets lucky on Ld tests, and doesn't want to let his opponents take away his advantage. So while It's not cheating per se, its just being kind of a dick because he knows they roll high and doesn't want to share his "luck". On the rules requiring you being to use opponents dice well, apparently that's become a matter of preference with some people. I played this guy last week, and I think that's probably the last time I'll be setting up a game with him.

**General Kroll**

As others have said, if anyone has an issue with your dice, just offer to let opponents use them. A guy at my club has straight edge dice, and he's always offered to let others use them. It's really up to personal choice really.

I don't think you're being unfair or cheating.

**Ghaz**

Dramagod2 wrote:
I really just want to be able to use the vegas dice since I know they roll evenly.

Except as noted, casino dice are made to be thrown, not rolled. From the article I linked to above:

A word about craps dice

Most casinos use 3/4" (19mm) “razor-edge” precision dice for their craps tables. (The slightly smaller 11/16" craps die has apparently been retired.) Craps dice are designed to be thrown by the “shooter.” In order for the roll, or “shot,” to count, the dice must rebound off the far wall of the craps table. Among other things, this ensures that the dice tumble sufficiently. The razor-edge of these dice also works as a “brake” that inhibits tumbling after the dice have struck the wall, ensuring that the dice come to rest as quickly as possible thereafter. However, as precisely machined as razor-edge dice are, they are not ideal for other gaming applications. (Nor are their “feather,” or bevel-edged cousins much better.) If you were planning to use craps dice for board games, miniatures, or role-play games, think again.

The large size of craps dice is an obvious problem. Most dice cups and towers cannot accommodate dice of this size. Granted if you use a large tray or the game table, size is less of a problem. That said, getting your hand around six to ten 19mm dice at a time may be awkward for those playing Flames of War, or Warhammer. A less obvious problem is ensuring that these big boys get enough “action.” Even if you have a large tray, cup, or tower, 19mm dice may not tumble sufficiently to ensure a truly random outcome. Throwing these brutes across your game table is seldom practical either. The sharp edges of the dice may also damage the surface of your dice tray or tower, and will not be kind to felt, or soft leather.

Craps dice are precision dice. But using craps dice in a way that they were not intended to be used defeats the purpose of all that careful engineering. If you want to ensure as much randomness as possible, we recommend that you use a precision die that suits the game being played. Professional backgammon players use ball-cornered dice for some very good reasons. All this is to say that if you are tempted to purchase craps dice, be aware that they are less than ideal for most game applications.

Take one of your vegas dice and let it gently roll out of your hand onto the table and then repeat the same process with a normal die and compare how many times each die tumbles. The more it tumbles, the more random the result achieved.

**Dramagod2**

Ghaz wrote:
Dramagod2 wrote:
I really just want to be able to use the vegas dice since I know they roll evenly.

Except as noted, casino dice are made to be thrown, not rolled. From the article I linked to above:

A word about craps dice

Most casinos use 3/4" (19mm) “razor-edge” precision dice for their craps tables. (The slightly smaller 11/16" craps die has apparently been retired.) Craps dice are designed to be thrown by the “shooter.” In order for the roll, or “shot,” to count, the dice must rebound off the far wall of the craps table. Among other things, this ensures that the dice tumble sufficiently. The razor-edge of these dice also works as a “brake” that inhibits tumbling after the dice have struck the wall, ensuring that the dice come to rest as quickly as possible thereafter. However, as precisely machined as razor-edge dice are, they are not ideal for other gaming applications. (Nor are their “feather,” or bevel-edged cousins much better.) If you were planning to use craps dice for board games, miniatures, or role-play games, think again.

The large size of craps dice is an obvious problem. Most dice cups and towers cannot accommodate dice of this size. Granted if you use a large tray or the game table, size is less of a problem. That said, getting your hand around six to ten 19mm dice at a time may be awkward for those playing Flames of War, or Warhammer. A less obvious problem is ensuring that these big boys get enough “action.” Even if you have a large tray, cup, or tower, 19mm dice may not tumble sufficiently to ensure a truly random outcome. Throwing these brutes across your game table is seldom practical either. The sharp edges of the dice may also damage the surface of your dice tray or tower, and will not be kind to felt, or soft leather.

Craps dice are precision dice. But using craps dice in a way that they were not intended to be used defeats the purpose of all that careful engineering. If you want to ensure as much randomness as possible, we recommend that you use a precision die that suits the game being played. Professional backgammon players use ball-cornered dice for some very good reasons. All this is to say that if you are tempted to purchase craps dice, be aware that they are less than ideal for most game applications.

Take one of your vegas dice and let it gently roll out of your hand onto the table and then repeat the same process with a normal die and compare how many times each die tumbles. The more it tumbles, the more random the result achieved.

I do tend to throw my dice down the length of the board. I rarely just drop them as I don't feel that's how you should roll any dice. I like to see them roll. But even so I still prefer a less randomized equal chance than a 29% chance of a one. The fact is that I rolled ones all the time. That is not an exaggeration. It was ridiculous. The only good games were ones where I had PE. Now I feel like I roll much more average and as I've tracked my rolls I have consistently had rolls that more or less were statistical. It's hard for me to argue with those results.

**Jimsolo**

Ghaz wrote:

Take one of your vegas dice and let it gently roll out of your hand onto the table and then repeat the same process with a normal die and compare how many times each die tumbles. The more it tumbles, the more random the result achieved.

That is, unfortunately, not the case.

The more a die tumbles, the more opportunity it has to settle to a weighted side. Since all mass produced, round edge dice are inherently weighted due to the manufacturing process, this applies to them.

An improper roll can make it easier to conceal a weighted die or to try to affect the outcome (hence the requirement on craps dice), but a sufficiently vigorous shuckle (or a dice tower for the shuckle-disabled) solves this readily enough. Now, the issue of proper sizing for towers/cups is a legit concern. As is the damage they can do to tables.

Since they aren't going to be off in the same way, I don't think anyone's losing out using Chessex dice, on the balance. It's still probably the best method.

**die toten hosen**

At the events i run i require legit dice.
Meaning they have to use actual dice with no logos or embelishments in place of pips. They legit have a different weight. Had a guy with a football team logo instead of a "one" pip, he rolled consitently more 1s then when he switched dice to regular chessex dice.

You must allow your opponent to use your dice at my events if you are suspected of having loaded dice.

Going to reiterate the "must be actual dice part" as i had a necron player using silver dice shaped beads to play. They had holes drilled through the center from corner to corner and on a flat surface would occassionaly land standing on a corner. They were also tiny and hard to read.

**Ghaz**

Jimsolo wrote:
Ghaz wrote:

Take one of your vegas dice and let it gently roll out of your hand onto the table and then repeat the same process with a normal die and compare how many times each die tumbles. The more it tumbles, the more random the result achieved.

That is, unfortunately, not the case.

It is, in the case of precision dice. Precision dice will provide a more statistically balanced result the more it tumbles over precision dice that tumble less. A precision pair of calipers that can measure down to the nanometer is wasted if you use them as a hammer. Razor-edged casino dice are designed to be thrown down the table, bounce off the wall and tumble as they settle to the table, not rolled no matter how hard you roll them. If you don't follow the process needed to insure a truly random result, then it doesn't matter how precise the dice are.

There's also the matter of wear and tear. Razor-edged casino dice are also susceptible to damage on the razor edge (even if it is ever so slight) that affects their precision. That's why casinos don't use the same dice all of the time and will switch them out several times throughout the evening. If you truly want precision dice, use the right precision dice for the job.

**dominuschao**

Never heard of that 'common' restriction. The closest I've seen is allowing one player the option to roll the dice the other used. That pretty much eliminates those guys who sat at home rolling dice ad infinitum to find what they feel are naturally loaded dice. Not that anyone does that..

**chromedog**

Ghaz wrote:
Casino dice really aren't that much more balanced if they're not used as they were intended to be used (i.e., thrown and not rolled).

http://asl-battleschool.blogspot.com/2011/06/what-precisely-are-precision-dice.html

And in most cases, BOUNCED off a backboard - in craps for example, your dice don't count unless they pass the (pass/no pass) line after coming off the wall.

This is the main reason the dice get replaced so often. The repeated collisions aren't doing anything good for those squared off edges.

**Champion of Slaanesh**

Tbf my chessex dice roll really bad worse than my gw ones it's the kinda funny

**Gorgosaurusrex**

Dramagod2 wrote:
lol, well aside from that I just want to be able to use my dice. Im curious to know if anyone else has come across events or tournaments that require players to use round sided dice. My TO says it s a regular thing but I've never heard of it and I know thy dont do that in the ITC. Has anyone else experienced this?

There is a tournament locally (one of the more competitive events of the year) that provides dice for each player to use (and keep). That's the only event I've ever heard of in my 10 years of tournament play that has any restriction whatsoever on dice.

**Tannhauser42**

The only problem I have with casino dice (and I have some that I use), is their size, which makes it unwieldy to roll too many of them. If only they made them in the standard wargaming dice sizes. Of course, there's always precision backgammon dice, but those are about $30 a pair last time I looked.

**Dramagod2**

I know its been a few weeks but my LGS just released official rules for all events, most of which are pretty typical, but then there's this little paragraph...

"Players are required to bring a set of either Chessex 12mm dice or a 12mm dice cube from Games-workshop. These are the only dice allowed to be used during any Event, Tournament, or Campaign. Failure to do so will result in a game loss. Repeated attempts will result in being Disqualified."

To me it just seems a little ridiculous. Not only does it affect me and the few others who switched to the casino or square cornered dice, but everyone that uses their own dice, including people who've bought army specific dice for themselves. I've never heard of anyplace else having a restriction like this and it just seems pointless. Has anyone else encountered something like this?