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It seems that 2nd ed has the most staying power of every edition ever: why?
Tell me about it.
Feel free to post army lists and pics of armies etc.

Thanks
Austin

It was a much sillier time in the game, though not so much as RT was. It was also much more heavily based on being Warhammer Fantasy in Space, what with there still being Space-Dwarves with their enmity with Space-Elves and all.

The GrimDark was also a bit more slapstick, but the game was designed around fairly low-model-count armies, more a skirmish game than anything, and the Codex power-creep and such hadn't taken quite a hold... of course, there were fewer armies to choose from, and what are now Codices/Dataslates were either just a background detail (like AdMech) or were just units part of other armies, or simply didn't appear at all.

2nd edition was special for a bunch of reasons. The story was getting refined from the crazy silliness of RT and then you had the first Codex releases. RT and 2nd edition in my eyes were the wild west in terms of what you could field in an army. My Orks had heavy plasma guns, webbers, stub guns, chainswords, power weapons, hand flamers and many more choices. You could just about field anything that was in your imagination.

I am currently trying to locate some of my old hand written 2nd ed Ork lists, but so far no luck. My list was huge for the time, almost 60 orks. That was a green tide back then. The only vehicles I normally ran were buggies and a dread. (Dreads were crazy good back then also)

Then of course there was the vortex grenade. 1 1/2 inch blast area, if the model is hit it dies no exception. Then it could start to wonder around the table randomly.

If I can find my lists I will share them.

2nd ed:



I could go on but you can check here more if you wish:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-20983-43407_Flashback%20Friday.html

 Ratius wrote:
2nd ed:

Spoiler:

I could go on but you can check here more if you wish:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-20983-43407_Flashback%20Friday.html

Sexy 'nids!
Everything is awesome... but those nids!

It was a great game at the time, and the diversity of combat was well reflected. Every gun had different to hit modifiers for long and short range, reduced armour saves and some did variable damage. In combat attacks could be parried, and combatants could fumble. The mono d6 hadn't yet taken hold, and everything from d3 to d12 (can't recall anything using a d20) was in use (mainly for armour pen). That all sounds great, but the reality was constant checking of weapon stats, combat phases that took an hour, dozens of vehicle/psychic/wargear cards to keep on top of, and games regularly got abandoned rather than finished. That said, the game had soul, which is something I feel it's lost.

 Psienesis wrote:

The GrimDark was also a bit more slapstick, but the game was designed around fairly low-model-count armies, more a skirmish game than anything, and the Codex power-creep and such hadn't taken quite a hold... of course, there were fewer armies to choose from, and what are now Codices/Dataslates were either just a background detail (like AdMech) or were just units part of other armies, or simply didn't appear at all.

You must have played a different game than I did. Codex Creep was very evident in 2nd edition. The first codex, Space Wolves, was considered extremely powerful with all the terminators it could throw out (back when termies were good), but then things calmed down for a bit. The later part of codex releases started to really ramp up the power creep though. I seem to recall Chaos, Tyranids, and IG being extremely powerful in 2nd edition. As for small model count, that depended solely on the meta in your area (back then, nobody knew what a "meta" was....simpler times). My area loved to play 2000-2500 point games, which had roughly the same model count as a 1250-1500 point game today. It was rare that we played a true skirmish style game of 40K.

Things I miss from 2nd Edition:

-The Outlandish Weapons - especially for Orks. I LOVED 2nd Edition Ork armies, so fun, so random. Shokk Attack, Hop Splat, Pulsa Rokkits, such fond memories of my apprehension and the terrified look on my opponents' faces as I rolled to see what effect the weapon would have!
-Special Issue Wargear - usable by ANY army! Sure, some of it was crippling (Virus grenades against Orks or IG, ugh), but the fact that any army could have them was really nice.
-Vehicle Durability - in 2nd edition, vehicles were rather durable, even the smaller types.
-Dreadnaughts - dreads were king in 2nd edition, and everybody that could fielded them.
-The Novelty - just about everything was new back then, and seeing the Tyranids, Chaos, and IG begin their evolution was cool.
-White Dwarf - this was the true Golden Age for White Dwarf. It was always loaded with rules, painting and modeling tips, and fluff, gobs and gobs of fluff. And it was all new, not rehashed a thousand times!


Things I hated about 2nd Edition"

-Overwatch - ugh, it killed the game and made it drag on forever.
-Overall speed - 2nd edition played like a skirmish game, with model-level movement, shooting, and assault rules, and vehicle specific rules, but if you played it with larger points, be prepared to spend 8+ hours on the game
-Psychic Powers - talk about clunky mechanics. Power cards that you used to power the spells, some of which acted like a spell themselves.
-Assault Rules - the rules for close combat in general were a hot mess, which is why nobody ever assaulted unless it was hero vs hero
-Cards, Cards, and More Cards - everything had a card back then, every vehicle, every wargear, every mission, every psychic power (cards for the power, deck of cards to USE the power). You ended up taking up half the table just to lay out all the cards you had to have.

Armies looked like this, but smaller. Here's my retro-style Ultramarines:






Although I only painted that army in the last two years or so.

The old round turret Pred. Iconic in the extreme.

2nd Ed was my fav. The shooting, saves, everything seemed to work more naturally.

 JamesY wrote:
It was a great game at the time, and the diversity of combat was well reflected. Every gun had different to hit modifiers for long and short range, reduced armour saves and some did variable damage. In combat attacks could be parried, and combatants could fumble. The mono d6 hadn't yet taken hold, and everything from d3 to d12 (can't recall anything using a d20) was in use (mainly for armour pen). That all sounds great, but the reality was constant checking of weapon stats, combat phases that took an hour, dozens of vehicle/psychic/wargear cards to keep on top of, and games regularly got abandoned rather than finished. That said, the game had soul, which is something I feel it's lost.

There were plenty of D20 rolls. It was a staple for S8+ melee attacks against vehicles for example.

Eg. Powerfist was 8+D20+D6 against vehicles.

Loved 2nd. Faaar cheaper game. My chaos list was:
2 vet squads with 2 missile launchers in one, 2 autocannon in the other.
5 Khorne Terminators with post heresy armor with twin lightning claws giving them a 2+ save on 2d6.
Nurgle Sorceror lord, lv 4 with terminator armor, a daemon sword, displacer field, and I think Combat drugs.
Thats 1500 points if I remember right. The lord was 365 points alone.

The rules were so much more fun. If you knew your army well enough, looking up stats was as easy then as it was today. A game was typically one hour per 1k points. Orks were the most fun army in the game. Shokk attack guns had a whole page of charts and tables to reflect the random effects it could have on different kinds of targets.

 JamesY wrote:
It was a great game at the time, and the diversity of combat was well reflected. Every gun had different to hit modifiers for long and short range, reduced armour saves and some did variable damage. In combat attacks could be parried, and combatants could fumble. The mono d6 hadn't yet taken hold, and everything from d3 to d12 (can't recall anything using a d20) was in use (mainly for armour pen). That all sounds great, but the reality was constant checking of weapon stats, combat phases that took an hour, dozens of vehicle/psychic/wargear cards to keep on top of, and games regularly got abandoned rather than finished. That said, the game had soul, which is something I feel it's lost.

Some armour penetrations required a D20 as did some wound rolls:

Meltabomb and Powerfist: D6+D20+8
Or chainfist: D20+D4+D6+10

I just got into 40k about a year ago with Tau. Those minis are so ugly. They look like toys lol. I think some people have too much nostalgia goggles.

2nd ed had too many problems for me to call it enjoyable. The codex balance was 7th-ed-esque, for starters. The only thing that kept me in the game was the sanity of 3rd.

I loved 2nd edition because Chaos felt like playing Chaos. Their combi bolters felt different than the loyalists, the termies didn't have teleporters because they had rebelled before teleporters were invented. Zerkers were tough dudes in CC.
SOB, my favorite army came out.
It was a funner though more poorly designed game than its predecessors. (Up to 5th)
I was really excited about 6th because it felt like a return to 2nd.....noble intent but poor failure.

I love the 2nd edition ruleset despite some of its flaws (as posted by others).

If you want to experience the 2nd Edition rules in its best adaptation I cannot recommend enough 2nd Edition's spin-off side game, Necromunda.

I do eventually plan to return to 2nd Edition 40k. I think playing the game with no Dark Millennium, no codexes (using the black codex instead), limiting wargear options massively and using modern/3rd Edition+ victory conditions and scenarios could make a great skirmish game.

 Redbad wrote:
It seems that 2nd ed has the most staying power of every edition ever: why?

Short answer: Because 2nd Edition was actually a different game. Everything since 3rd Edition has largely just been revisions to the same basic game.

 Gamgee wrote:
I just got into 40k about a year ago with Tau. Those minis are so ugly. They look like toys lol. I think some people have too much nostalgia goggles.

Ehhh it's all a matter of opinion

I love those minis and rules, because I respect where my favorite gaming universe came from. I have both 2nd edition, and a signed copy of Rogue Trader.

Necromunda is absolutely awesome, too.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Redbad wrote:
It seems that 2nd ed has the most staying power of every edition ever: why?

Short answer: Because 2nd Edition was actually a different game. Everything since 3rd Edition has largely just been revisions to the same basic game.

2nd was a revision of RT, but 3rd was, as you say, a very discrete break. And has been revised since. I think any modern player would be able to shift gears and play 3rd with little to no problem, but once you go back to 2nd/RT it’s vastly different. I’d say completely different, but a lot of the core mechanics are similar. S vs. T, etc.

2nd was baroquely complicated. Everything had special rules, or odd dice, of finicky mechanics. Overly complicated, but very detailed. You could have a whole squad toss frag grenades, and roll scatter and resolve a whole lot of blast markers. It was a lot more “realistic” that way. But this all came at the cost of time to play. 3rd pared all the complexity away. And while I mourned the loss of detail, I loved the speed of play. It was a different game, but not necessarily any better or worse. But 3rd did cement the shift from a RPG/Skirmish game to a full wargame, where armies clashed.

 Gamgee wrote:
I just got into 40k about a year ago with Tau. Those minis are so ugly. They look like toys lol. I think some people have too much nostalgia goggles.

Back in your box, noob.

It's an incredibly high quality model even if you don't like what it's depicting. I find it ridiculous but well made.

-Edited by insaniak. Please see Dakka's Rule #1

 Gamgee wrote:
It's an incredibly high quality model even if you don't like what it's depicting. I find it ridiculous but well made.

Besides, this whole "quality" thing gets thrown around a lot, and the 2nd Ed plastic kits went together just fine, so I can only assume you mean the relentless greeble that the modern kits are plastered in, which isn't so much an indicator of quality as an indicator of lack of restraint.

But a year in you're probably at a stage where more is still more for you, and haven't quite developed the appreciation of a large blank space on a model appearing where there should be a large blank space. Or that no amount of "quality" can offset a really dumb concept.

Yes, judge models made 20+ years ago to current models....that's fair.

It was Glorious. I loved 2nd and was out of 40k for several years when the 3rd ed. reboot happened. Sooooo blandtastic.

4th was probably my favorite but 2nd is a close.....second.

Az, everyone knows Skulls=Quality.

My understanding of 2nd (which I've never played):

"Sweet! My pre-game bombardment killed most of your army! Oh wait... Darn! I miscalculated my vehicle's speed as I moved forward, and now I've accidentally sped off the table. Oops!"

I miss vortex grenades, and teaming chaos and genestealers,

I don't miss the arc of fire every model had though

I also miss different units having different speeds, it felt much more realistic. Like a Stealer should be faster than a regular Guardsman, or Banshees able to outrun Orks.

I concur that it probably did have too many sub rules and some wacky cards and overwatch was utterly broken as a mechanic but the vehicles rules I really liked - they felt like.....well big juicy machines of death rather than boxes to be stripped of hullpoints.

A bit of context ...

1st edition was written as a narrative skirmish wargame - closer to Necromunda or Inquisitor than what you young 'uns think of as 40k now. A couple of dozen hapless pirates with an odd mix of muskets, plasma grenades and a hovertank trying to rob a bank while being attacked by five Space Marines and an Inquisitor, for example.

Once the expansions and new miniatures started coming out, proper army lists were published and people wanted to field actual armies rather than warbands and mobs. So, the model count increased, and special rules for this, that and the other proliferated wildly (you think some armies have a lot of rules now? Have a look at the 1st edition Orks or Chaos, or any Imperial army with a robot). Even then, armies were quite small. The studio Space Marine army was as follows:
Captain Tycho
Chaplain
Librarian
Medic
10-man Tactical squad
10-man Devastator Squad
5-man Terminator squad
Techmarine
Rhino
Dreadnought
Land Speeder (technically a Tornado, now)

That was it, and the last four items were later additions.

The rules - with all their special cases, details, exceptions and charts, worked fine for skirmishes, and OK for armies like the one I listed there, but by the early 90s, it was starting to creak under the strain of larger and larger armies (gamers keep buying more minis, after all).

So, along came 2nd edition, which stripped a lot of that out. No "reserve movement" pahse, now models could run at double rate and not shoot, instead. No random charts (!) for choosing your characters' equipment, and the wargear lists were dramatically reduced. Pretty much all the weapons present in 1st edition were in 2nd, but most armies had access to a limited subset of those. For example, Space Marines could use missile launchers, lascannon, heavy bolters, heavy plasma guns and multi-meltas, but no autocannon, multilasers, conversion beamers or heavy stubbers (in fact, the latter two were featured in the Wargear book, but I don't remember any armies which could actually field one).

Even there, though, armies were small compared to now; a Marine army would be perhaps three squads, plus characters and support elements (a tank, perhaps two if you were really flash, a Terminator squad, a Dreadnought, etc). Even Imperial Guard armies were smaller; fielding a Leman Russ tank and a Chimera was perhaps going overboard with vehicles. So, the detail that remained usually didn't slow things down. With two exceptions: vehicles and persistent area effects.

Vehicles had a "datafax"; an A5 card with the stats on one side and the damage tables on the other. Somewhat similar to the 3rd-7th edition stats, but with more detail - Slow, Combat and Fast speeds were different for each vehicle, and each damage location (usually Tracks, Hull, Turret, Weapon and Crew if appropriate) had their own armour values. Damage results ranged from restricting a vehicle to Slow speed, or killing the driver and moving out of control, to damaging an individual weapon, or exploding catastrophically. The thing is, even bikes were "vehicles" - so if you had a squad of five models on bikes, by turn three or so, you had one guy running to keep up on foot because his bike was shot from under him, one that couldn't shoot, one that couldn't move at Combat or Fast speed, and one that was moving randomly each turn. It was enough to dissuade people from fielding bikes.

Then the template weapons: grenades were ordinary weapons; every model in a squad could throw them. That means that a squad of Marines could throw ten frag grenades, each with a 2" radius. Excellent! except that you'd need to roll scatter for three or four of those. Then, take things like smoke, blind or plasma grenades (all pretty common); not only do they do that, but the templates stay on the table, and each turn you need to roll to see if they dissipate, shrink, grow or move around. Fun if it's that one vortex grenade, not so much fun if it's ten blind grenades (and personally, I didn't have ten templates of every size, so we couldn't just leave them in position).

Basically, 2nd edition 40k had you playing as the commander of a reinforced platoon, where the important element is the individual. 3rd and subsequent editions have you playing as the commander of a company where the important element is the squad (although they've not managed to shake off some of the individual-centred parts, hence still having to worry about would allocation and exactly where the guy with the lascannon is standing).

Did anyoneever pay the points to actually use Anti-plant missiles? Instead of shooting a missile that caused damage, you fired a missile that destroyed forest terrain. Kind of like fast acting agent orange.

I remember my chaos army one time facing off against a nid army. I forget which order the phases were in but my sorcerer cast Plague Wind and literally a third of his army turned into Plague bearers and killed a significant portion of others as I ran out of plague bearer models to sub in. In the shooting phase, first shot of the game was a Joe marine with an autocannon, hit the hive tyrant who failed his armor save(s) and caused enough wounds to kill him. You rolled armor for the shots if I remember right and then rolled for the amount of wounds if it was a multi-wound weapon. Opponent conceded.

Games were not slow unless you didn't know what you were doing, 1 hour per 1k points was the norm. And you have to admit, armor save modifiers were a light year's better system than the AP crap we have now.

True line of sight- Since models were individuals within squads, if the whole squad shot at A except for Bob who couldn't see A because of a physical tree, but he could see B, Bob could fire at B instead.