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SST was doomed from the start, by nature of being produced by Mongoose, Matt Sprange has never produced a game he couldn't kill with his good intentions. It had a good initial release during a time when people were actively looking for new 40k killers, but the release was botched. Based only on internal playtesting, MGP mistakenly thought the MI would get way slaughtered by the bugs initially and the first few months of releases were only additional MI units to help combat that. In truth the basic MI, played thoughtfully, would decimate armies of basic bugs and the extra releases for MI just made that more lopsided. By the time the tanker and flying bugs came out roughly 4~6 months later a lot of the initial interest had moved on to other games or back to 40k.

The game also heavily suffered from having only 2 real factions. The 3rd faction, the Skinnies, were pretty poorly done: too few units, bad sculpts, way too late to the game etc. The fourth faction was to be completely made up by the Mongoose team and could be loosly descibed as being mecha-piloting squats and groan-inducingly named "The Forth". They never came out, probably for the best. Now, for the Arachnids and MI there were eventually TONS of options and many different viable playstyles for each, but you still could only play MI or Arachnids and that's it. There were a lot of snafus and like every MGP game EVER there were a lot of promises made and ideas floated around the community by the game designer that never came to pass. Matt Sprange is a decent guy, but he posts every exciting idea he has for his games as absolute plans for the future of the game(s), then they fall through because they weren't possible to begin with for a small company and people get mad. He's like the Peter Molyneux of miniatures. Case in point: the flyers that EVERYBODY wanted that never came out despite being "just around the corner" for 2+ years, and the plastic Light Infantry debacle that forced MGP to produce the kit in metal and sell it at a loss to appease the players.

MGP then announced Battlefield Evolution which would lead into a 2nd edition of SST called SST: Evolution, which might have been REALLY cool if they had done SST first. Even better, the games were to be fully compatible which would have solved the only 2 factions issue and lead to some really interesting MI VS afghan rebels or USMC vs Arachnid battles! Years later MGP admitted that they absolutely should have done SST:Evo first and that BF:Evo was a terrible way to break into prepaints and it killed both games and nearly the company.

They'd been teasing prepainted plastics as a possibility even in the Bablyon 5 era**, but decided on BF:Evo as the first place to start. They promised non-collectible PPPs that were better than anything on the market to date. Confrontation was still all-metal, but AT-43 released in the interim and MGP proudly (and foolishly) claimed theirs would be WAY better quality. They showed off all the promo figs they'd had made, but they weren't used to dealing with China and just Mantic and the basillean infantry, they had a bait & switch contract with no quality clause to send them back and have em redone. The production models were quite terrible, the paintjobs were at best on-par with heroclix and the vehicles were very obviously underscaled. MGP tried to claim the vehicles were properly scales and that the infantry bases were making it appear to be off-scale, but it was easily disproven and it just lead to further fan backlash

In the end, BF:evo was a good modern/near-future game based on the SST rules, but the figures killed it and any hopes of more SST, and by then there was little interest left in SST either, so MGP let the license lapse when the cost went up to renew it. After the PPPs failed horribly MGP released a revised BF:Evo rulebook meant for general modern/near future gaming that was great, a lot of our local historical players were doing 20mm skirmishes with it for a while



** WONDERFUL game BTW, best spaceship game of all time, although also eventually killed by Sprange's reach-exceeds-grasp approch to game design and annual edition overhauls

I disagree entirely with that first paragraph. I was Mongoose Infantry at the time, and demo'ed it all over the place, ran local leagues and tournaments, and that was not the case. Even the general view on the forums was that the MI were hard to play because they required greater tactical acumen than playing bugs (knowing when to be READY in order to execute special actions, like Jump (and shoot), etc). It was this opinion that caused MI to get a reduction in points (by 16%) in the MI Army Book, which was a huge mistake.

edit: I also did not like the Evo ruleset, it was just, not good. SST rules was perfectly designed for what it is - shoehorning other eras and army types into the ruleset began to break it's perfection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh, I forgot to link this message, which is a nice bit of history from Matt http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/474984.page#4752159

I try to pick up some SST when the price is right. Being oop makes them pricey but I have a handful of bugs. Nowhere near enough to play with. Rules seem good but I think SST's problem was only having 2 cool armies to play.

I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that it was for a setting produced under license which automatically includes a preset lifetime. No matter how good a game might be once the license expires the game is likely dead. I love SST movie and book so the game had a lot of appeal to me but I only caught wind of it as it was approaching the end run, when I saw it at gencon the models looked fairly solid, but somebody mentioned that their license was drawing to an end so I knew that the game would get dropped and there'd be no support. Plus stuff was already spotty on if it could found. The plastic core units were around but any sort of specialty bug required some serious hunting to aquire even when it was in production, now days it's near impossible to find anything that isn't the main box.

It's just like the terminator game or the AVP stuff, it all has a limited shelf life built into it. That doesn't mean it can't be a great game but it does give it a flash in the pan effect where it's here for a year or two before the license runs out and nobody ever wants to pony up money to renew. (as it's usually not even worth the license cost on the first run when it's hot)

They also suffer from the inability to expand much beyond what's in the movie or official setting, and since most of those are intended for one shot films it's quite limit ing in the scope of their universe content.

In order for a game to survive it generally needs to be built on the strength of it's own IP and not being reigned in with a limited number of options. I have a feeling that xwing would have had some serious issues by now if they hadn't branched out into the expanded universe stuff. By churning out new stuff they've avoided license window death where the ccg dried up due to lack of ability to expand, once they cap out on the new movie designs I have a feeling it'll dry up at that point.

 paulson games wrote:
[..] It's just like the terminator game or the AVP stuff, it all has a limited shelf life built into it.
That doesn't mean it can't be a great game but it does give it a flash in the pan effect where it's here for a year or two before the license runs out and nobody ever wants to pony up money to renew. (as it's usually not even worth the license cost on the first run when it's hot)
They also suffer from the inability to expand much beyond what's in the movie or official setting, and since most of those are intended for one shot films it's quite limiting in the scope of their universe content.
In order for a game to survive it generally needs to be built on the strength of it's own IP and not being reigned in with a limited number of options. [..]

Your analysis feels spot on to me: years back I had the opportunity to get the Colonial Marines RPG & miniature rules and a batch of figures on clearance at a FLGS.

Unfortunately (I keep kicking myself for never just buying it all outright for myself just 'in case') I couldn't find anyone interested enough in either the films or graphic novel universe setting(s) to want to play.
Which really surprised me at the time, and continues to surprise me, because really, insufficient interest in Alien - no matter the locale - to find more players during the mid-90s?

But everything could easily be (then and now) due to the factors you list.

_
_

 paulson games wrote:
I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that it was for a setting produced under license which automatically includes a preset lifetime. No matter how good a game might be once the license expires the game is likely dead. I love SST movie and book so the game had a lot of appeal to me but I only caught wind of it as it was approaching the end run, when I saw it at gencon the models looked fairly solid, but somebody mentioned that their license was drawing to an end so I knew that the game would get dropped and there'd be no support. Plus stuff was already spotty on if it could found. The plastic core units were around but any sort of specialty bug required some serious hunting to aquire even when it was in production, now days it's near impossible to find anything that isn't the main box.

It's just like the terminator game or the AVP stuff, it all has a limited shelf life built into it. That doesn't mean it can't be a great game but it does give it a flash in the pan effect where it's here for a year or two before the license runs out and nobody ever wants to pony up money to renew. (as it's usually not even worth the license cost on the first run when it's hot)

They also suffer from the inability to expand much beyond what's in the movie or official setting, and since most of those are intended for one shot films it's quite limit ing in the scope of their universe content.

Well, er, no. The fact that the license was pulled was not revealed for five years due to the NDA. Not sure who told you the "license was drawing to an end". Also not sure about distribution problems. The kits were readily available through all - all - major distributors in the USA (Alliance, ACD, and Warpath at the time). It's also still pretty easy nowadays to get a lot of the non-main-box plastic kits such as Marauder suits, hoppers, and plasma bugs for far less than MSRP. Gosh, and as of a few years ago, you could get a lot of the metal kits for dirt cheap, too.

License-wise, Mongoose had the license to the CGI TV show (obviously) and the films, and had an unlimited license to invent things whole cloth - the entire background was an amalgamation of the two primary sources plus invented stuff. Things like the Cougar and Grizzly suits were totally invented.

All it takes is to read the link posted earlier, from Matt's own mouth, about the plans they had for the game and how much of a huge investment it was to get that far. When the license was pulled, it left Mongoose in the lurch, having invested hundreds of thousand of pounds in a game that was now effectively dead. The things that killed SST, in order, were: the Heinlein Estate vs Sony lawsuit that then quadrupled the license fees for renewal; the bizarre decision to announce a switch to prepainted plastics (that never occurred); the poorly balanced Skinnies army.

However it is nice to see that some concepts of Andy Chambers' finest work have influenced other rulesets, even if they aren't as elegant and well designed as his masterpiece.


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 Smilodon_UP wrote:

Your analysis feels spot on to me: years back I had the opportunity to get the Colonial Marines RPG & miniature rules and a batch of figures on clearance at a FLGS.

Unfortunately (I keep kicking myself for never just buying it all outright for myself just 'in case') I couldn't find anyone interested enough in either the films or graphic novel universe setting(s) to want to play.
Which really surprised me at the time, and continues to surprise me, because really, insufficient interest in Alien - no matter the locale - to find more players during the mid-90s?

I had the Aliens Adventure Game, boardgame, and multiple copies of all of the miniatures released. And I sold them. Despite Aliens being my favorite movie (I own a full set of colonial marine armor, bdu's, pulse rifle, accessories, etc). Because the RPG sucked, the boardgame is awful, and the miniatures were mediocre for the time and are downright terrible now.

The game was a mathematical nightmare that forced you to calculate the effects of every... individual... bullet... you... fired... You can have the best license in the world but if you produce garbage, it's still garbage. Note that Leading Edge also had a Terminator and Army of Darkness game, with minis, which also all sucked. But Leading Edge loved snapping up licenses... don't forget the fantastic(ally bad) Lawnmower Man and Bram Stoker's Dracula. Want to peek down this rabbit hole? https://satelliteshow.wordpress.com/2010/05/22/not-so-great-rpg-systems-leading-edge-games/

If its any consolation, several of the metal kits like Cougars and Grizzlies, plus some infantry, can be bought from Rebel Minis as theynbought the molds.

Renamed Mobile Infantry:
http://www.rebelminis.com/eafohogu.html

Slightly resculpted skinnies:
http://www.rebelminis.com/valonianempire.html

EVO had its own release problems. First edition didn't have stats in the rulebook, only in the unit boxes. So we had to wait for the units to be released, and I recall later waves had delays on them. We never did get more than a handful of units for each army. Eventually there were a few fan lists and units in Signs and Portents too.

The choice of 1/64 was a weird one - you only pick a new scale when you can fill out the range quickly. Doubly a problem when the big tanks were 1/72 but more expensive and not as nice as Dragon and Corgi diecasts. In their defence, I believe Mongoose approached Corgi to link up, but were rejected.

Second edition was everything first should have been, and I happily invested in the minis when Mongoose was having their warehouse clearance sale. So I now have decent forces for all the factions. Paintjobs are basic but functional, just nowhere near the hype.

I actually liked EVO (not so much the WWII game) and I think AD Publishing has done a cracking job polishing up the rules with their Victory Decision WWII and Future Combat games.

The Aliens Boardgame was brilliant - the real secret was to have multiple players on the Marine side and not allow them to share plans. Carnage usually ensued. The RPG suffered huge delays from having to have a total fluff rewrite to bring it in line with Alien 3. It was a damn good moderns skirmish game, very detailed but quick to play. Some of the little details were very neat, like the penetration hit chart for vehicles determining how far into the vehicle the shot penetrated (wrecking anything in the way). And there was a good emphasis on getting to wounded characters and stabilising them QUICKLY.

For a Dracula game... probably not so great...

But then I liked the vastly more detailed games (not the same as realistic, I realise) it was based on, and enjoyed it as a streamlined version of those.

Sorry... back to SST folks :-)

 judgedoug wrote:

 paulson games wrote:
I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that it was for a setting produced under license which automatically includes a preset lifetime. No matter how good a game might be once the license expires the game is likely dead. I love SST movie and book so the game had a lot of appeal to me but I only caught wind of it as it was approaching the end run, when I saw it at gencon the models looked fairly solid, but somebody mentioned that their license was drawing to an end so I knew that the game would get dropped and there'd be no support. Plus stuff was already spotty on if it could found. The plastic core units were around but any sort of specialty bug required some serious hunting to aquire even when it was in production, now days it's near impossible to find anything that isn't the main box.

It's just like the terminator game or the AVP stuff, it all has a limited shelf life built into it. That doesn't mean it can't be a great game but it does give it a flash in the pan effect where it's here for a year or two before the license runs out and nobody ever wants to pony up money to renew. (as it's usually not even worth the license cost on the first run when it's hot)

They also suffer from the inability to expand much beyond what's in the movie or official setting, and since most of those are intended for one shot films it's quite limit ing in the scope of their universe content.

Well, er, no. The fact that the license was pulled was not revealed for five years due to the NDA. Not sure who told you the "license was drawing to an end". Also not sure about distribution problems. The kits were readily available through all - all - major distributors in the USA (Alliance, ACD, and Warpath at the time). It's also still pretty easy nowadays to get a lot of the non-main-box plastic kits such as Marauder suits, hoppers, and plasma bugs for far less than MSRP. Gosh, and as of a few years ago, you could get a lot of the metal kits for dirt cheap, too.

License-wise, Mongoose had the license to the CGI TV show (obviously) and the films, and had an unlimited license to invent things whole cloth - the entire background was an amalgamation of the two primary sources plus invented stuff. Things like the Cougar and Grizzly suits were totally invented.

All it takes is to read the link posted earlier, from Matt's own mouth, about the plans they had for the game and how much of a huge investment it was to get that far. When the license was pulled, it left Mongoose in the lurch, having invested hundreds of thousand of pounds in a game that was now effectively dead. The things that killed SST, in order, were: the Heinlein Estate vs Sony lawsuit that then quadrupled the license fees for renewal; the bizarre decision to announce a switch to prepainted plastics (that never occurred); the poorly balanced Skinnies army.

However it is nice to see that some concepts of Andy Chambers' finest work have influenced other rulesets, even if they aren't as elegant and well designed as his masterpiece.

All that I know is that our local store had difficulties getting product in at the point where I was interested in getting into the game. We had a small player base there who had armies, the store bought from all 3 distributors (and is still the largest store in the area) and the stuff was constantly backordered. The only items they had were starter sets and even if we asked about special ordering stuff they said they didn't know if they could get more and stuff had been back ordered for a while. They didn't get into details on why they couldn't get anything and the owners certainly wouldn't turn down a sale simply out of dislike of a game.

I'd originally been looking at the SST stuff 2007-08, don't know where my friend had heard that the lisc was ending, maybe he was speculating due to lack of availability or repeating rumors he'd heard online. He was a pretty huge fan of the game as well as B5 so he followed those pretty closely at the time, but locally the writing was already on the wall and the group was pretty much falling apart due to not being able to draw in new players and gaping holes in the stores shelf. Honestly it doesn't really matter because just knowing it was a licensed property was enough to keep me from getting into it as I've yet to see one that pans out well. I skipped out on buying into terminator and AVP for the same reason. I don't care much for movie licensed games no matter how appealing their mechanics or miniatures may be. Ultimately it's just a dead end road.


About 5 years ago I had been hunting for SST stuff on ebay and it was not all that easy to find, I was able to get a base box and some chicken walkers but when it came to other stuff like the grizzlies or anything related to the bugs it was next to impossible. At the time I couldn't even find hopper bugs let alone anything like the plasma bomber, tanker, brain bug etc. At the time one of the large gaming companies was dumping off their old inventory so base set could be had for about 30% of their retail price however all they had was base boxes and MI packs, nothing else. After 2-3 month of trying to round out a playable force I gave up. Maybe stuff has had a resurgence in availability since then, but at the time I was looking for it things were pretty sparse. YMMV

I didn't follow the game all that closely, but from an outside perspective of trying to get into the game that's what I saw going on.

Currently there's an ok assortment of items on ebay, and more than what I could previously find, although the quantity is fairly small and just one pair of people trying to assemble a complete army for MI and bugs would completely exhaust everything. So it's not like there's vast quantities to be had.

I still don't think that licensed game has much hopes for long term survival, they tend to cost the producer a lot of money in fees. The producer also has no ability to continue the game should the contract be cancelled or if they can't afford to continue to renew. That's not a good place to have your company in as it's dependent on a property they ultimately have little control over. It can make great for a one shot game, but not for long term survival.

n815e wrote:That's a good point and does present a concern. With most game systems, though, you are not *really* tied to any line of miniatures. This is part of breaking the trend: Convincing people to Collect what they want. The idea that a set of rules MUST be played with some official miniatures is actually pretty limiting. It's an idea that GW drilled into people's heads to sell more models. In the case of "dead" games it's even less important as you don't feel like you need to support the guys that are making this stuff. They've already moved on.

I don't just game sci-fi, most of my gaming is actually historical. The idea that you cannot use any manufacturer to play a game is counter-intuitive. Warlord makes great WWII models, but so do other companies. I doubt you will ever hear anyone (including Warlord) say "don't use those guys with Bolt Action unless they are from Warlord."

In the case of Starship Troopers (since this is a thread about that game), the official models are largely available for purchase. The ebay prices for most of it aren't too bad and Rebel is slowly bringing back the line in a different name.
That said, there's no reason at all why you can't use any miniatures that take your fancy to play the game, in any scale you like. I've seen people on line play this game in 15mm and 6mm. I even have a small 6mm collection for it that I'm planning to expand in the future.

Have you tried instead to set up a specific night to play any of those games? Or invite people to join you in a scenario you've set up? Or have a game night at your house where the atmosphere is different? Not everyone is going to be receptive to this idea, you may need to find the right people. It's not easy, but it's doable and the more people that do it, the more the followers will join in.

Think of it like playing board games or role playing games, in that not everyone needs to own the stuff to play.

Good luck in your endeavors.

Again, QFT.

Agreed with Paulson's post too. I think this vaguely ties into something I've mentioned elsewhere on Dakka, and strengthens my suspicions that strictly specific, official minis - licensed minis in particular - inevitably set themselves up for a fall. I fully understand the appeal of official minis looking exactly like characters you see on the screen, and official rules to let you play out similar stories and adventures, and for a short while it's a blast; but it seems like something always falls through, like big licensers demanding more and more from this notoriously niche and low-paid hobby, or some other unfortunate twist, and the bubble bursts. Parts of this hobby's history can look like a string of bubbles, all popping one after eachother; buy a bunch of minis one day, shelve or bin 'em the next day because they're 'useless' now, buy another bunch the day after that.
It just doesn't seem right to me. Perhaps there's not much that can be done about it, for sections of this hobby. Maybe an uphill battle after each pop is just the way it is. But it seems worse when the licensed property is itself a derivative, of something with largely the same setting, plot, or story beats but much less defined and more adaptable imagery.

For instance, I'm exaggerating (a bit), but are we far enough into the future that enough time and bad sequels have passed, to blur memories of the specific look of a flawed movie adaptation? Going just by the LotR board here, it does take quite a while. I wonder what Sony or the Heinlein estate would charge for the miniatures license these days, but is anyone crying out for the specific marauder suits from SST3 or Invasion (heck, even the earlier animated marauders) rather than other smallish mechs that might be available? How many are still jonesing for the movie grunts (supplied by Rebel) as opposed to something fitting the powered armour cap troopers of the books? (Also supplied by Rebel, and a bit more on that later) I expect the most iconic thing is the warrior bug design from the movie*, but unless Rebel somehow get permission to reproduce those in resin or metal, how many would be thoroughly dissatisfied with gun-toting pseudo-arachnids from the book? (Though I wonder how far some enterprising person might get with something based on the front half of a hercules beetle, the back half of certain types of longhorn beetles, and some vaguely crablike modifications to the legs)

* It's like the space-insect version of 'raptors' - an instantly recognisable movie monster, whose differences from the 'source material' might set curious fans up for a mild shock.

judgedoug wrote:the entire background was an amalgamation of the two primary sources plus invented stuff. Things like the Cougar and Grizzly suits were totally invented.

Mmmnewp.

However it is nice to see that some concepts of Andy Chambers' finest work have influenced other rulesets, even if they aren't as elegant and well designed as his masterpiece.

Oh dear.

AegisGrimm wrote:If its any consolation, several of the metal kits like Cougars and Grizzlies, plus some infantry, can be bought from Rebel Minis as theynbought the molds.

Renamed Mobile Infantry:
http://www.rebelminis.com/eafohogu.html

Slightly resculpted skinnies:
http://www.rebelminis.com/valonianempire.html

Someone should've mentioned those.

Momotaro wrote:
I actually liked EVO (not so much the WWII game) and I think AD Publishing has done a cracking job polishing up the rules with their Victory Decision WWII and Future Combat games.

Absolutely. Why Momotaro, did you know folk here might not be aware that Future Combat even has a space bug supplement?

How similar to SST is Future Combat?

 Vermis wrote:

judgedoug wrote:the entire background was an amalgamation of the two primary sources plus invented stuff. Things like the Cougar and Grizzly suits were totally invented.

Mmmnewp.

I take it this is some sort of "no" with no further explanation.
The license covered Starship Troopers (1997), Starship Troopers 2 Hero of the Federation (2004) and Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles. Cougars and Grizzlies are not located in any of those three sources, and were therefore invented whole cloth, to approximate the powered suits from the novel. Also, things like the Thorny Tanker and King Tanker were invented just for the miniatures game.

Unless you're talking about the background? In which I point to the vast majority of the Mongoose Starship Troopers minis game as well as roleplaying game and supplements which used the film, series, and novel as guidelines but invented everything else.

 Vermis wrote:

However it is nice to see that some concepts of Andy Chambers' finest work have influenced other rulesets, even if they aren't as elegant and well designed as his masterpiece.

Oh dear.

Uh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 paulson games wrote:
I still don't think that licensed game has much hopes for long term survival, they tend to cost the producer a lot of money in fees. The producer also has no ability to continue the game should the contract be cancelled or if they can't afford to continue to renew. That's not a good place to have your company in as it's dependent on a property they ultimately have little control over. It can make great for a one shot game, but not for long term survival.

That's kind of a shame, as the best rulesets in the last fifteen years have been licensed properties: Lord of the Rings, Starship Troopers, and Terminator. Of course, your point is taken in that it seems that's a prevailing opinion; a lot of people are not exposed to excellence in game design so continue to suffer through mediocrity as that's the only thing they know and is the only thing largely available to them.

I sure wish I'd have been looking at the time it went to pre-painted. Sadly, my free time isn't as ample as it once was and I'd have loved to get into the game (which, by all accounts seems to have been quite good and thematically aligned with the book) but now the eBay prices for the stuff are outlandishly high. C'est la vie, I suppose.

Well, I got my hardback rulebook copy in the mail and I'll be looking at it this week. I'll report back in a few days whether this SST rules stuff is just a vast dakka left wing OOP ruleset conspiracy or if there is some truth in this Golden Ruleset of El Dorado.

So I had some free time this weekend and went through the core rulebook (both MI chapter and supplements and the actual game rules... still iffy on the advanced rules section though) and figured I'd post some thoughts as well as questions. Sorry about the multiple edits but I've been thinking of new stuff to add every time I hit "post" or "update" so it's a bit jumbled potentially.

First off, the MI minis are just as awful as I remember. Nothing in that original line interests me even a tiny bit. The pathfinders and cougar/grizzly variants that came out latter as well as the light infantry were better but... man... those original Maruader suits and power armor models were U-G-L-Y!!!

As for the rules, they do intrigue me. I like their reaction system more than I do that of infinity although I was a bit surprised to see a UGOIGO whole army turn system. While I don't have any strong feelings on whole army UGOIGO but I was just expecting alternating unit activation instead. The reaction system though does a good job (at least in theory from reading it) of mitigating the problems with whole army UGOIGO activation. I prefer the full effectiveness reaction AFTER the original reaction SST has instead of the simultaneous but usually reduced effectiveness ARO's of Infinity. Another thing is that the reaction triggers on your immediate area (usually 10" but it can be increased with certain upgrades or variants) instead of LOS like with infinity. I like the reduced area of reaction but full effectiveness within that area a bit more than that of Infinity's AROs. YMMV.

While I don't pretend to be an expert on Infinity having played zero games (but watched several dozen battle reports though), it always seemed odd to have a sniper lock down half the board or more with ARO's that fire at full effectiveness as an ARO. The same applies to any weapon that "fires" with one die. It felt wrong to have a sniper rapid firing against everyone potentially covering every single nook and cranny within his view at 100% effectiveness with what amounts to a single shot or semi auto weapon whereas someone with a full auto gun can only fire with much less effectiveness compared with it's own activation fire. With SST, the reaction is at full effectiveness but happens AFTER the model that triggers it is done (and obviously assumes that the model reacting isn't killed by that original activation). It's fully a matter of preference but I like that in theory more.

Something I'm not a fan off rules wise is the mechanic of a single hit/damage roll that is completely independent of the firing model. It doesn't matter how high tech or advanced or skilled the firer is, the probability of hitting/damaging an enemy model is only dependent on the weapon and the target. The weapon tells you what dice to roll and the target tells you the number. Whether you're a 20 year vet of the MI in the most advanced armor they have with the best targeting tech or a lowly straight out of boot camp light infantry grunt, you hit/damage on the exact same numbers. The skill of the firer is nonexistent in this game barring an upgrade character rule that may give you a bonus or reroll that you choose to pay for. While I could see them saying that the tech is more important than the person pulling the trigger, that kind of goes against the trite catch phrases and fluff. Why bother ever practicing your gunnery skills if it will never matter? I'm not a fan of that and wish there was some sort of distinction between a light infantry man firing a morita rifle to an MI power armor trooper to a pathfinder to a career Lt. They all shoot the same with the same weapon on the same target as their relative experience in the stock statlines is moot. Flames of War IIRC might have something similar (the chance to hit depends on the target and not the firer) so maybe my feelings on this is a relic of always playing games where the shooter's skill is a factor in your chances to hit.

Something I'm undecided on is the "flinching" mechanic. Basically, if you get hit/wounded and survive by making your dodge/armor roll, your surviving model gets pushed back 2". If you're alive in close combat after combat with a larger model, you get pushed back 2" as well. I'm not sure what that actually adds to the game. It's supposed to represent the sheer weight of fire pushing back the enemy or causing some momentary hesitation (there doesn't seem to be any specific morale "run away!" system in the game)... but it doesn't feel that way from a simple reading. The first impression I'm getting from the "flinching" mechanic is complexity for the sake of complexity. I can't really think of what that adds in fluff/flavor/mechanics to the game beyond just leaving the model in place (you don't get locked in close combat in this game and are free to leave on your turn so that's not it). I guess you could theoretically keep pushing an enemy unit that isn't killed off of an objective but I haven't gotten to the scenario rules yet so can't say.

Another thing I picked up on is that it looks a bit forced to see the "variety" they added to the MI. You've got the butt-ugly models from the CGI show that are already "elite" infantry and they followed that up with even more elite infantry in largely the same equipment with the pathfinders and then followed that also with more elite infantry in the form of the bulky exo suits that actually match the novel's power armor more which aren't to be confused with the guys in the even bigger single pilot suits from the original release (the ape and chickenhawk things). They did to their credit add the LESS elite light infantry from the original movie but it seems like there is a bit too much power armor redundancy in the MI. I realize the pathfinders are more like Space marine sternguard whereas the exo suits are more like terminators and the apes/chickens are the new centurions but it feels a bit off to me to design a military system like that in relatively modern times (2005 game release) so haphazardly. It basically feels like they were trying to out-elite OMG these guys are really the best and I know we told you that the last time we released guys that were better than the starter set but this time we mean it (until the next release).

 Kalamadea wrote:
** WONDERFUL game BTW, best spaceship game of all time, although also eventually killed by Sprange's reach-exceeds-grasp approch to game design and annual edition overhauls

My understanding was that the B5 game was actually doing pretty well, but was killed off by the license owner choosing to hike the price up when it came up for renewal, making the game no longer viable. Somewhat backed up by various comments by other parties over the years about Warner Bros(?) having a vastly inflated opinion of what B5 was worth as a license.

Does the "flinch" rule apply to shooting, or just close combat? If the former, then it seems like a pretty decent representation of suppressive fire; either you have to use an activation to move back to where you were (potentially reducing the effectiveness of that flinched unit's own fire, or becoming vulnerable to reactions) or you give ground.

Flames of War does indeed relate the chance of being hit to the target's skill, not the shooter's. Basically, it's assumed that everyone's gone through basic training, so everyone's going to be roughly equally good at shooting (my understanding is that elite unit training is to add different skills, not just more time on the firing range), so what really matters is how well the target can conceal themselves. It's fairly common (among GW games, Epic 40,000, Epic Armageddon, Warmaster and Battlefleet Gothic also take no account of the shooter's skill), especially among historical games, where you don't have to account for posthuman soldiers, goblins, twenty-foot demons and ancient robots in the one ruleset.

While I'm more fine with it in historical type games (as you said.. the combatants are pretty similar in that they're all humans generally at the same tech level), it feels to me that experience of the firer should matter as well. That becomes doubly so when you consider that a human with maybe an optical or iron sight (the Light Infantry guys from the first Starship Troopers movie), a guy in power armor (like a Space Marine), a guy in a crisis suit or dreadnought, and a basic shooty Arachnid mindless drone all have the exact same probability of hitting the same Skinny faction target. YMMV but that feels very counterintuitive to me.

As for flinching, yeah, it's both shooting and close combat. If you get hit/wounded (it's one roll for both in SST) and make your save, you flinch unless you've got a special rule preventing it. In close combat, you flinch if you're in close combat range (point blank range) of a bigger enemy after it is done attacking.

Also, last night I did a youtube search for SST videos and found out a few new things:

1) There aren't any.

2) There was an anime CGI movie a few years back done by the director of Appleseed of SST that I wasn't aware of. It looks like an updated look and tech version of the CGI TV show that I criticized earlier.

3) There was a 80's Macross style Japanese anime of SST that I had no clue about!

AndrewGPaul:

Epic Armageddon has to hit numbers for both close combat, firefights, and shooting. All that's left to the target is a saving throw. Epic 40,000 uses a table like Battlefleet Gothic, which was pretty standard in some wargaming circles back in the day. The Doom of the Eldar board game used a similar method for resolving combat. I don't think the column-shift worked well for representing Eldar craft being harder to hit via holofields, and none of these depended on the target for the hit results on the dice.

Actually, something I like about Warhammer, coming from Battletech originally, was that things like wounds and saves depended on a combination of attacker and defender. I think something like Ballistic Skill vs Initiative or something would have made more sense in the WS vs WS, S v T, AP vs Sv paradigm they had going in 3rd edition, but for some reason (I guess the drive for simplification) they went for attacker-defined flat to hit numbers.

 warboss wrote:


2) There was an anime CGI movie a few years back done by the director of Appleseed of SST that I wasn't aware of. It looks like an updated look and tech version of the CGI TV show that I criticized earlier.

Is that Starship Troopers: Invasion? It wasn't terrible. Some parts were even fun!

However, I have a very high tolerance for B-movies and schlock so...... YMMV as they saw!

Also, flinching makes sense to me since the whole idea of MI firing at massing bugs is to force them back. You see it a lot int he movies so it makes sense in the rules too.

 warboss wrote:
Something I'm not a fan off rules wise is the mechanic of a single hit/damage roll that is completely independent of the firing model. It doesn't matter how high tech or advanced or skilled the firer is, the probability of hitting/damaging an enemy model is only dependent on the weapon and the target. The weapon tells you what dice to roll and the target tells you the number. Whether you're a 20 year vet of the MI in the most advanced armor they have with the best targeting tech or a lowly straight out of boot camp light infantry grunt, you hit/damage on the exact same numbers. The skill of the firer is nonexistent in this game barring an upgrade character rule that may give you a bonus or reroll that you choose to pay for. While I could see them saying that the tech is more important than the person pulling the trigger, that kind of goes against the trite catch phrases and fluff. Why bother ever practicing your gunnery skills if it will never matter?

One thing you've missed is that there is actually no roll to hit - all shots always hit their target, because, again, the rules explicitly state that anyone with a modicum of training can put rounds downrange into an area (again defined as either 3", or 6" for Auto weapons). You always hit. The idea that soldiers would have a chance to miss a region of fire is ludicrous - so the most ludicrous concept of most miniatures games is simply tossed out.

The dice you roll - your shots are rolling against the Target value of the enemy - how difficult they are to be destroyed by volume of small arms fire.

This is repeated in the rules, too, and is the reason you can premeasure at any time (revolutionary for a game in 2005 btw) - it is assumed everyone is trained and has rangefinders. All automatic weapons shoot area fire - 3", or in the case of Auto, a 6" area. It is entirely about putting volume of fire into an area.

Here's a nice dakka article that goes over most of these concepts http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Starship_Troopers_Gameplay_Review

 Easy E wrote:

Is that Starship Troopers: Invasion? It wasn't terrible. Some parts were even fun!

However, I have a very high tolerance for B-movies and schlock so...... YMMV as they saw!

Also, flinching makes sense to me since the whole idea of MI firing at massing bugs is to force them back. You see it a lot int he movies so it makes sense in the rules too.

Yeah, they did flinch a bit with fire in the movies but I wasn't sure if it added anything to a mass battle game with potentially 30 figs per side. Yeah, it was Invasion and it wasn't terrible. Not great but not terrible either. Some stupid stuff like piloting a big robot suit but choosing to open the cockpit and expose the pilot for a dramatic charge stuff and unnecessary animated nudity (not offended by it but it felt forced and out of place at times) but it visually was a big step up from the CGI show which isn't surprising given the over decade between them and likely larger budget. I felt like it emulated the minis game (from my reading of the rules) more than the original novel or original movie. All in all, it was better than that Ultramarine "we march for macragge!" CGI movie from a year or two earlier.

Flinching is very important for forcing models outside of the 10" Reaction range (when you're playing a shooty army), or for the fact you get free attacks against models that Flinch through your point blank area. So Warrior Bugs literally bounce MI around if the MI are caught in a swarm - or bunch of Warriors emerge from a tunnel in the middle of an MI squad. Or large Size models that can ignore smaller models, so a Tanker runs through a squad of MI and sends them Flinching in all directions.

 judgedoug wrote:

One thing you've missed is that there is actually no roll to hit - all shots always hit their target, because, again, the rules explicitly state that anyone with a modicum of training can put rounds downrange into an area (again defined as either 3", or 6" for Auto weapons). You always hit. The idea that soldiers would have a chance to miss a region of fire is ludicrous - so the most ludicrous concept of most miniatures games is simply tossed out.

The dice you roll - your shots are rolling against the Target value of the enemy - how difficult they are to be destroyed by volume of small arms fire.

This is repeated in the rules, too, and is the reason you can premeasure at any time (revolutionary for a game in 2005 btw) - it is assumed everyone is trained and has rangefinders. All automatic weapons shoot area fire - 3", or in the case of Auto, a 6" radius. It is entirely about putting volume of fire into an area.

Here's a nice dakka article that goes over most of these concepts http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Starship_Troopers_Gameplay_Review

Thanks. Yeah, I found that link previously with a google search and read it this weekend but it's definitely good to post it here. There is also an argument to be made that experience and skill in combat should give you a better chance to make those hits count like the difference between Klendathu fresh from boot spray and pray that takes 30 rounds to put down one bug versus the exact same weapon targeted by a cooler, more knowledgeable and experienced shooter against the neural center of the bug and needing only a round or two to put the same bug down with the same weapon. IMO there should be something in the game mechanics to shown that difference in skill and experience but in this game their isn't. YMMV.

Was it worth upgrading MI to WASPs or using anything but pathfinders? For 5pts more a model, the pathfinders seem like they get alot (although IIRC you said the normal MI go down in price with the MI army book but I'm not sure whether pathfinders predated that or came out afterward). Longer reaction fire range (12" instead of 10"), some extra bug tunnel stuff (that I admit I'm not comprehending since I didn't get to the advanced rules yet in depth), and a reroll armor save in cover. The MI from reading the rules seem pretty squishy TBO and I suspect I'd likely field pathfinders with WASP packs as the standard guys backed up by Exo suits and the occasional horde of light infantry.

edit: I removed the flinching question since you ninja answered it while I wrote this.

Flinching isn't really morale, it's the physical act of having survived bullets or a claw. Morale is built into the system because it is very deadly when you make mistakes - SST is the most idiot-proof ruleset because you will lose horribly if you are bad. When you learn the rules, and have a few games under your belt, and when you know that doing certain things will get you murdered, you as a person will have your own morale to deal with because your expensive units will die horrible when you make a mistake. SST is Super Scary Tense when two people who know the rules are playing against each other.

Nomeny wrote:
AndrewGPaul:

Epic Armageddon has to hit numbers for both close combat, firefights, and shooting. All that's left to the target is a saving throw. Epic 40,000 uses a table like Battlefleet Gothic, which was pretty standard in some wargaming circles back in the day. The Doom of the Eldar board game used a similar method for resolving combat. I don't think the column-shift worked well for representing Eldar craft being harder to hit via holofields, and none of these depended on the target for the hit results on the dice.

All the modifiers were to do with the target - the column shifts for aspect, intervening terrain, etc. A ship crewed by Space Marines was no more good at long ranged gunnery than one crewed by Orks; just like here. Same goes for Epic 40,000, because that's where the gunnery table came from. It's been a while since I played E: A, so I'll hold my hands up to that one, sorry; I was sure that, say, the lascannon on a Leman Russ tank hits on a 5+ just the same as the one on a Space Marine Predator, though.

 warboss wrote:
Thanks. Yeah, I found that link previously with a google search and read it this weekend but it's definitely good to post it here. There is also an argument to be made that experience and skill in combat should give you a better chance to make those hits count like the difference between Klendathu fresh from boot spray and pray that takes 30 rounds to put down one bug versus the exact same weapon targeted by a cooler, more knowledgeable and experienced shooter against the neural center of the bug and needing only a round or two to put the same bug down with the same weapon. IMO there should be something in the game mechanics to shown that difference in skill and experience but in this game their isn't. YMMV.

It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, Light MI do not have the Auto trait and suffer huge penalties for splitting their fire - with that act alone they are infinitely less effective than power suit MI (not to mention no Jump/12" special movement), without slowing the game down immensely with extra "to hit" rules (and all the baggage that comes with) or needing to remember + modifiers. The Morita is just D6's for a reason, because it's the most common die you'll be rolling as MI (along with the short range underslung D10's)

 warboss wrote:
Was it worth upgrading MI to WASPs or using anything but pathfinders? For 5pts more a model, the pathfinders seem like they get alot (although IIRC you said the normal MI go down in price with the MI army book but I'm not sure whether pathfinders predated that or came out afterward). Longer reaction fire range (12" instead of 10"), some extra bug tunnel stuff (that I admit I'm not comprehending since I didn't get to the advanced rules yet in depth), and a reroll armor save in cover. The MI from reading the rules seem pretty squishy TBO and I suspect I'd likely field pathfinders with WASP packs as the standard guys backed up by Exo suits and the occasional horde of light infantry.

I found, that as the MI player, you are always incredibly outnumbered, and because of this, you need to work with as much volume of fire as you can get. Therefore your biggest bane is nickel-and-diming your way into having a small force. I never thought Pathfinders were worth it (though my buddy swore by them, so, yeah, ymmv) That extra cover barely comes into play, nor does the reaction range considering the average movement value of ground bugs. (the fliers won't matter because their 24" special movement includes an attack, so it's almost impossible to react when Hoppers are decapitating your troops). I am a huge, huge fan of MI always being on the bounce, so I would tend to leave my MI with a Ready marker as much as possible so that the first reaction is a special move Jump 12" - so jump to safety w/ a shooting attack. This is when the game becomes like Chess, with the Arachnid Empire player positioning his units and tunnel assets in such a way that even MI jumping then have no safety zone, because they'll be jumping out of harm's way and into the jaws of death. So, with all that in mind, I would try to get as many units that can move and output fire.
Light infantry are terrrrrible btw. They excel at recreating the film. But it's literally a Rourke's Drift scenario at that point. So not my cup of tea.

Be sure to read your army list/platoon selectors and priority level indicators. Army list composition is unlike any other miniatures game. You won't be mixing platoon types very often.

Leaving the 2nd action as a ready sounds like a good idea. Wouldn't the 12" reaction of the pathfinders by definition be the anti-hopper? With 24", it's impossible for the wasp to start outside of the reaction range AND not end within it so it guarantees the Pathfinders a free shot either before or after (depending on where the hoppers start) the hopper strafing run unlike normal troopers. Is there something I'm missing with that? I didn't catch that Light Infantry lose the auto trait on their moritas so thanks for pointing that out; it does make a difference in their utility!

This week I'll be taking a look at the advanced rules including tunneling but at a very cursory first glance they don't seem like enough to counter MI mobility. It seems like you only generally move 6" underground because of the ready actions needed to do stuff like move, enter, or emerge whereas the MI bounce 12-18" depending on the upgrade (normal, wasp, or exo). Combined with limits on how many bugs come out of the hole and how far from the hole you can get upon emergence, it doesn't seem as big as initially I thought. I fully admit though that I need to look more closely at both the advanced rules and the arachnid special rules though. This is likely answered in the rules that I haven't gotten to yet but do bugs get reactions while underground if MI do stuff "above" them within 10"? That could help their mobility a bit.

 warboss wrote:
Leaving the 2nd action as a ready sounds like a good idea. Wouldn't the 12" reaction of the pathfinders by definition be the anti-hopper? With 24", it's impossible for the wasp to start outside of the reaction range AND not end within it so it guarantees the Pathfinders a free shot either before or after (depending on where the hoppers start) the hopper strafing run unlike normal troopers. Is there something I'm missing with that? I didn't catch that Light Infantry lose the auto trait on their moritas so thanks for pointing that out; it does make a difference in their utility!

This week I'll be taking a look at the advanced rules including tunneling but at a very cursory first glance they don't seem like enough to counter MI mobility. It seems like you only generally move 6" underground because of the ready actions needed to do stuff like move, enter, or emerge whereas the MI bounce 12-18" depending on the upgrade (normal, wasp, or exo). Combined with limits on how many bugs come out of the hole and how far from the hole you can get upon emergence, it doesn't seem as big as initially I thought. I fully admit though that I need to look more closely at both the advanced rules and the arachnid special rules though.

If the hopper is your only unit moving in on those Pathfinders, sure, but a 1-2 punch with Hoppers then Warriors, especially considering the cost of Pathfinders, and they can be easily mitigated. They have the same target/save/kill as normal MI which is laughably easy for most Arachnids to pop

Trust me, tunneling is insanely powerful for bugs. Deploying tunneling assets at the beginning of the game can guarantee you control over huge portions of the board - their first use is for area denial. MI don't want to bounce near them because bugs can come spilling out. Now, it's been a hot minute since I played bugs but I believe the Tunnel/6" is for creating a NEW tunnel, whereas you can move full movement underground when moving between pre-existing bug holes. Now, emerging is a special move, i believe, and if that's the case that means they can pop out and slice and dice at the same time. When bugs emerge, they emerge TOUCHING the tunnel (a 3" circle iirc) - so a Tanker or even Warriors - which are large, large models, are just all of a sudden all up in your business - and since you auto Flinch away from larger Size models, you can have bugs pop up and push guys away and into another unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And now that I'm having excellent memories of SST...
Also, I normally didn't take any tactical nuclear warheads, but there were several games that I did, and they were always always fun.

I remember one game, playing lengthwise, so 6 feet apart, on turn 1, an MI with a tac nuke loaded in his Javelin fired and took out my opponent's Brain Bug and Plasma Bug in one mushroom cloud - don't clump up your big bugs! And the loss of the brain bug sends Arachnids into confusion for a whole turn. It was a quick game (so we just swapped sides and played again - the next time my nuke didn't do so well!)

Units underground do not react to those above ground and vice-versa.

Units with the tunneling ability may move normally underground as long as they are moving towards or away from tunnel assets (bug holes, other tunnelers).
Part of the "game" is to alter your movement to keep the enemy from guessing what you have underground. You might have a hidden tunnel, but if you move in such a way that will make it obvious then you show your hand too early. But make your opponent think there may be a hidden tunnel somewhere.

You should use your tunnelers as a threat to herd the MI into your killing zones. Positioning of bug holes and tunnel markers and the order in which you move your tunnel markers is very important to try to get the most flexibility in the movement rules.
Maybe there is not much underneath there, maybe it is a tiger. If they ignore the tunnelers, then open up a hole under them and have brunch.

For the bugs, to deal with MI mobility you need to carefully position your units both above and below ground. Try to get the MI to think something is more threatening than some other group of bugs you have somewhere else and then pounce.
Lure them in with a "vulnerable" target and then pounce.
Hit them with bug batteries to get them to move from somewhere you don't want them to be.
Play a psychological game with your opponent. Don't play a Tyranid swarm, be a guerilla.

Get extra mobility from those reactions. Remember the flexible command structure of the bugs.