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Hi all,

Conventional wisdom states that gloss varnish is tougher than matte, so many people, including me, will do a coat of gloss and then matte to dull it down.

Is this just an old wives tail? Anyone got any proof either way?

No, if both are an acrylic water based varnish neither one is noticeably stronger than the other. It's an old gamers' myth that just gets repeated so many times people believe it. There is a strength difference between varnishes when it comes to the solvents they use, with solvent-based varnishes being more resilient than water based ones (but again, gloss or matte makes no difference with those either).

Varnish doesn't "toughen" your paint job and prevent scratches and chips; only proper paint adhesion and careful handling do.

gloss is good for shiny stuff like armour and bugs. matt good for flesh and grit I always think.

I've never tested how resilient it is to damage. You could just do an experiment, spray a model with a colour, spray one side with gloss and the other side with matte.

But gloss tends to be more resilient to solvents. I think because the matting agent used in matte varnishes allows the solvent to be absorbed in to the surface more and the matting agent can be dissolved and redistributed (creating ugly rings). This is part of the reason you tend to gloss varnish prior to weathering that involves strong solvents, the solvents are more likely to damage your matte coat than a gloss one.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Varnish doesn't "toughen" your paint job and prevent scratches and chips; only proper paint adhesion and careful handling do.

Have you actually tested this to know? Because anecdotally I have noticed some models far less prone to chipping and abrasion damage after varnishing them. The aircraft I just finished was terrible, there was no where to hold the model while painting it without risking chipping paint off somewhere else, as soon as I varnished it I stopped having problems with paint coming off while working on it.

Logically it makes sense that it'd make it tougher, because tougher = more energy absorbed before damage is done and if you have a decent layer of varnish there is more elastic material that has to deform before paint can be lifted and broken away.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Have you actually tested this to know? Because anecdotally I have noticed some models far less prone to chipping and abrasion damage after varnishing them. The aircraft I just finished was terrible, there was no where to hold the model while painting it without risking chipping paint off somewhere else, as soon as I varnished it I stopped having problems with paint coming off while working on it.

Have I run an actual experiment with a control and all of that? No. However, you would have gotten the same reaction if you had sprayed another coat of paint on top.

Varnish, especially water-based acrylic varnish, doesn't have the magical properties that a lot people tend to think it does. The primary difference between, between the finish obviously, the two is surface they leave behind. Gloss is smoother and less absorbent and matte is 'rougher' more absorbent, which is very noticeable when using oils on top of acrylic.

The easiest analogy that you can see for yourself is concrete. If you have concrete that has been finished smooth (like a garage floor) and you pour a glass of water on it, that water will be there for a little while. If you have concrete that has been finished with a brush finish (like a sidewalk) and you pour a glass of water on it it will be absorbed much quicker.

The concept is the same with gloss and matte finishes. A gloss finish has a better sealing than the matte finish does simply because the exterior is smooth and has a very small amount of broken edges on a very small level. A matte finish has broken up edges that do not seal as well. The broken up edges are what cause the light to refract instead of reflect.

In my experience it is best to coat with gloss to seal it and then coat with matte if you want that type of finish. The strength of the clearcoating is entirely dependent on the chemical composition of the type of acrylic or varnish being used.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Have you actually tested this to know? Because anecdotally I have noticed some models far less prone to chipping and abrasion damage after varnishing them. The aircraft I just finished was terrible, there was no where to hold the model while painting it without risking chipping paint off somewhere else, as soon as I varnished it I stopped having problems with paint coming off while working on it.

Have I run an actual experiment with a control and all of that? No. However, you would have gotten the same reaction if you had sprayed another coat of paint on top.

Perhaps, but painting another coat of paint isn't always an option. In fact it's usually not an option at all. If you just spent 10 hours doing layered or glazed highlighting you can't just turn around and say "now do it again to make sure it's tough enough" More often than not when painting you should be aiming for the thinnest coats possible. Once you're done and you want to protect all those thin layers of expertly blended colours, varnish is the only way you can add significantly more material without fething up the model.

Also I tend to think the acrylic varnish is different to regular paint, whether it's just because it's "100% resin" or a different formulation, I dunno. But I'll test it before I commit to that. It sure does clog the airbrush more easily than regular paint and when it oversprays on to my hands I can feel it's a different tackiness to regular acrylic paint. Varnish does give the impression of being more tenacious than regular paint.

Rather than theorising I'll do a rough test (I could take the stuff to work and using our testing machines but frankly I can't be bothered and it's not my area of expertise anyway, so I'll just do basic tests I can do at home). I have a primed model with a square base sitting in front of me, I'll paint 3 sides with a paint, wait a few hours then paint gloss on to one side, matte on to another and simply another layer of paint on to the other, I'll just do my best to get similar thickness layers on each side then wait a day or two for it to cure and then test it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I've applied a few swatches of paint to the base of the model. Using vallejo paints and varnishes I've done swatches of...

VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss
VMC -> Matte -> Matte
VMC -> Satin -> Satin
VMC -> VMC -> VMC
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear
VMC (nothing else)

I thought I'd try the humbrol stuff as well because it's what I've been using recently. I tried to get similar layer thicknesses to get a decent comparison, though the humbrol stuff is significantly thinner (it comes out of the bottle very thin and self levels extremely well which is why I've been using it).

I'll wait a day or two and see the results of some scratch testing.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Have you actually tested this to know? Because anecdotally I have noticed some models far less prone to chipping and abrasion damage after varnishing them. The aircraft I just finished was terrible, there was no where to hold the model while painting it without risking chipping paint off somewhere else, as soon as I varnished it I stopped having problems with paint coming off while working on it.

Have I run an actual experiment with a control and all of that? No. However, you would have gotten the same reaction if you had sprayed another coat of paint on top.

Perhaps, but painting another coat of paint isn't always an option. In fact it's usually not an option at all. If you just spent 10 hours doing layered or glazed highlighting you can't just turn around and say "now do it again to make sure it's tough enough" More often than not when painting you should be aiming for the thinnest coats possible. Once you're done and you want to protect all those thin layers of expertly blended colours, varnish is the only way you can add significantly more material without fething up the model.

Also I tend to think the acrylic varnish is different to regular paint, whether it's just because it's "100% resin" or a different formulation, I dunno. But I'll test it before I commit to that. It sure does clog the airbrush more easily than regular paint and when it oversprays on to my hands I can feel it's a different tackiness to regular acrylic paint. Varnish does give the impression of being more tenacious than regular paint.

Rather than theorising I'll do a rough test (I could take the stuff to work and using our testing machines but frankly I can't be bothered and it's not my area of expertise anyway, so I'll just do basic tests I can do at home). I have a primed model with a square base sitting in front of me, I'll paint 3 sides with a paint, wait a few hours then paint gloss on to one side, matte on to another and simply another layer of paint on to the other, I'll just do my best to get similar thickness layers on each side then wait a day or two for it to cure and then test it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, I've applied a few swatches of paint to the base of the model. Using vallejo paints and varnishes I've done swatches of...

VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss
VMC -> Matte -> Matte
VMC -> Satin -> Satin
VMC -> VMC -> VMC
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear
VMC (nothing else)

I thought I'd try the humbrol stuff as well because it's what I've been using recently. I tried to get similar layer thicknesses to get a decent comparison, though the humbrol stuff is significantly thinner (it comes out of the bottle very thin and self levels extremely well which is why I've been using it).

I'll wait a day or two and see the results of some scratch testing.

I for one will be very interested to hear the results of your testing Mr Skink.

Initial impressions after a a few hours, all are very easy to scratch with a pin. But scratching with a nail there's clear differences...

VMC (nothing else) - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> VMC -> VMC - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> Matte -> Matte - slightly harder but still easy to scratch
VMC -> Satin -> Satin - same as matte
VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss -a little bit harder to scratch than satin or matte. It seems mostly that my nail slips over the surface instead of biting in and doing damage.
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear - the toughest so far. It's quite a bit harder to gouge, but when it finally does fail a bigger chunk comes off.

Of course, none of them would be fully cured yet, it's only been a few hours. I'll have a look again tomorrow night. At the moment the paint feels more chalky/brittle than the varnishes which seems to be why it's scratching easier.

Maybe I should have tried one VMC -> gloss -> matte.

Humbrol varnish is lacquer-based, correct? Solvent based varnish/paint tend to be more durable than water based ones.

Spray coats work at protecting paint jobs on models.

I have seen this in effect from years of playing games and handling models.

Plastic models due to the softer material underneath tend to keep paint more easily than metal models. Some people also say you dont need to clear coat plastics or if you do need less.

Metal minis for sure need a clear coat of some sort to protect the paint. Otherwise the most simple bumps or tips onto a hard surface can chipping. With a clear coat you will find it will take a much hard/abrasive impact to cause damage to the paint.

I have dropped painted/clear coated models on a concrete floor with minimal damage to the paint job aside from the point of impact usually.....and even then Ive seen the clear coat hold up if the impact wasnt to harsh.

In general I use testors dull coat on everything anymore. I stopped using the cheap brands or hobby brands long ago as they seem to have more problems with overcoating or frosting of minis if conditions arent perfect.

Testers dullcoats seems to never frost and even when more heavily applied/oversprayed doesnt seem to cause issues to the paint job. Also it seems to harden the paint to the point that normal handling results in little to no damage and protects from most normal incident aside from floor drops on concrete and even then it helps.

Thats been my experience as a wargamer for 20+ years now.

If I want something shiny- I will paint the entire model, then dullcoat, then go back over with metallics or gloss paints to make it shiny again.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
Humbrol varnish is lacquer-based, correct? Solvent based varnish/paint tend to be more durable than water based ones.

Nah, it's water soluble. It's Humbrol's attempt to replace Future floor polish, which was an acrylic varnish as well, but it's much thinner than your typical hobby varnish. It does have some amount of ammonia in it though which probably gives it more bite. It also means you have to be careful because it can strip the paint you're trying to protect, lol.

I didn't test the humbrol to be a direct comparison so much as I tested it because it's what I've actually been using lately as the good self levelling gives a better result in a gloss (less important in a satin or a matte).

Humbrol do also make regular acrylic varnishes and enamel varnishes, I haven't tried any of those.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Initial impressions after a a few hours, all are very easy to scratch with a pin. But scratching with a nail there's clear differences...

VMC (nothing else) - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> VMC -> VMC - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> Matte -> Matte - slightly harder but still easy to scratch
VMC -> Satin -> Satin - same as matte
VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss -a little bit harder to scratch than satin or matte. It seems mostly that my nail slips over the surface instead of biting in and doing damage.
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear - the toughest so far. It's quite a bit harder to gouge, but when it finally does fail a bigger chunk comes off.

Of course, none of them would be fully cured yet, it's only been a few hours. I'll have a look again tomorrow night. At the moment the paint feels more chalky/brittle than the varnishes which seems to be why it's scratching easier.

Maybe I should have tried one VMC -> gloss -> matte.

Legend! Any further results after curing time?

 goblinzz wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Initial impressions after a a few hours, all are very easy to scratch with a pin. But scratching with a nail there's clear differences...

VMC (nothing else) - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> VMC -> VMC - extremely easy to scratch
VMC -> Matte -> Matte - slightly harder but still easy to scratch
VMC -> Satin -> Satin - same as matte
VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss -a little bit harder to scratch than satin or matte. It seems mostly that my nail slips over the surface instead of biting in and doing damage.
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear - the toughest so far. It's quite a bit harder to gouge, but when it finally does fail a bigger chunk comes off.

Of course, none of them would be fully cured yet, it's only been a few hours. I'll have a look again tomorrow night. At the moment the paint feels more chalky/brittle than the varnishes which seems to be why it's scratching easier.

Maybe I should have tried one VMC -> gloss -> matte.

Legend! Any further results after curing time?

Sure why not! It's been ~18 hours since I applied it. So still not what I'd call "fully cured" but a lot further in to it.

I swapped from trying to scratch it with my finger nail to using the back (blunt) side of some toothpicks I had lying around. I also did a VMC -> gloss -> matte swatch because I know that's what a lot of people actually use in practice.

VMC (nothing else) - still quite easy to scratch, I have to apply a bit of force but not much.

VMC -> VMC -> VMC - MUCH easier to scratch. The 3 coats of paint (applied a few hours apart) is super weak to scratching. Much weaker than 1 coat. I have to apply almost no force to remove the paint.

VMC -> Any type of varnish. Very resilient to the toothpick. Holding the toothpick 3/4" from the end, the toothpick is typically snapping at the same time as the paint starts scratching. I can scratch it if I try hard enough, but I'm having to apply enough force that it's hard to gauge.

So 18 hours in, all the varnished ones are winning but I need a new method of scratch testing. I tried the back (chamfered) side of a metal drill bit but that makes it too easy to scratch all of them with very little force so it's again difficult to gauge. So I need an intermediate material to do my scratching. My toothpicks are quite cheap and old so maybe I just need to buy some better toothpicks, or perhaps fashion a gouging device from plasticard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok I tried a piece of sprue as a scratching device. This is a bit stiffer than the toothpick so is giving me a better range.

VMC (nothing else) - easy to scratch
VMC -> VMC -> VMC - MUCH easier to scratch and when it scratches the paint comes off in bigger chunks.
VMC -> Matte -> Matte - much harder to scratch, requires significantly more force than the single coat of VMC.
VMC -> Satin -> Satin - same as matte
VMC -> gloss -> matte - it feels ever so slightly tougher than matte->matte, but not a big difference. If I had proper equipment I'd definitely expect bigger numbers, but how much bigger? I dunno.
VMC -> Gloss -> Gloss -a little bit harder again. At this stage it mostly seems like things are more likely to slip over the gloss surface rather than biting in, which means I have to apply more force to get the paint to scratch/gouge.
VMC -> Humbrol Clear -> Humbrol Clear - still the toughest. Even though the Humbrol Clear was very thin when applying it, at this point it FEELS the thickest for some reason, quite an interesting comparison to the Vallejo gloss.


I'll wait longer for it to cure more, but I don't expect the unvarnished ones to ever get as tough as the varnished ones because I have another model sitting next to me that was primed at the same time as my test model but fully painted, and even after months of time to cure it's not as tough as the one I varnished only 18 hours ago.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tested them again. It's been a bit under 26 or so hours and I can feel the difference from 18 hours. But the trend is still the same...

3 coats of VMC < Single coat VMC < matte vallejo varnish = satin vallejo varnish < gloss then matte vallejo varnish (but not by much) < gloss vallejo varnish < humbrol clear

At this point the tougher ones (humbrol clear and gloss vallejo varnish) actually take quite a lot of force to scratch with my plastic sprue scratcher. At this point the humbrol stuff is tough enough that it even takes a bit of force (though not much) to scratch it with the back of a metal drill (compared to all the others that scratch with almost no force). I'm running out of area to test my scratches so I'll wait a while before I test them again to get an idea of what they're like when they're almost fully cured.

Alright, about 48 hours later I've tested it again. My final results on a scale of endurance from weakest to strongest, I'll try and space them out by roughly how different they are

1 - 3 coats of VMC applied over primer a few hours apart
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2 - single coat of VMC over primer
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3 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Vallejo satin
4 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Vallejo matte
5 - single coat of VMC followed by 1 coat of Vallejo gloss and 1 coat of Vallejo matte
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6 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Vallejo gloss (note that you can mar the gloss surface before the paint itself scratches, but to actually damage the paint is considerably harder).
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7 - single coat of VMC followed by 2 coats of Humbrol Clear, even to mar the glossy finish takes a lot more effort than the Vallejo stuff.

However, if what you try and scratch it with is significantly harder than the paint (like metal), it's very easy to scratch all of them.

Keep in mind Humbrol Clear is a different animal, it's still an acrylic varnish but it's super thin, designed for good self levelling and seems to have an ammonia thinner in it.

Just for the hell of it I put a drop of paint, a drop of gloss and a drop of matte on a sheet of aluminium foil to see what differences there were. The matte varnish is more brittle than the gloss which has more of a rubbery finish and the paint is quite soft and susceptible to damage.

So it seems the traditional wisdom is true. Gloss > Matte > bare paint. The one that sort of surprised me was 3 layers of paint is easier to damage than 1 layer (because it's easier to bite in to it and gouge it off).

Science!

Thanks skink

Wonderful results Skink, thank you so much for going to the trouble! I'm going to pickup some Humbrol clear myself and see what I think.

To be honest I'm not sure if I should recommend Humbrol Clear I like it, but it behaves very differently from regular varnish. You do need to be careful if you're applying it with a hairy brush because it can strip paint if you haven't allowed a while for it to cure (hasn't been a problem for me because I usually airbrush it). It is very thin and self levels really well, which can be both a good and a bad, apply too much on a miniature and it'll tend to pool in areas you might not want and it can show up flaws in the underlying paint more readily than other varnishes because it levels itself around the flaws. One problem I've found with it is that it doesn't paint over decals very well for some reason (though it works well under decals). I discovered on my Spitfire when I sprayed it over the big roundel decals that it beaded up on them.

The main reason I have been using Humbrol clear instead of other gloss varnishes is because usually when I gloss coat a model it's because I want to do weathering with oils and/or apply decals and for that it's brilliant.

Humbrol originally made it as a substitute for Future floor polish, and I've read some reviews of people who don't like it, but I've been liking it.

Humbrol do make several gloss varnishes, this is specifically the one I've been using...
http://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/humbrol-gloss-clear-125ml-bottle.html

You can use it in an airbrush without thinning it (unlike the Vallejo stuff that people say you can use unthinned but clogs my airbrush every time I try it ).

That was one of the most intense pieces of Hobby research I've ever seen, thanks for all the effort and sharing the results!

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
To be honest I'm not sure if I should recommend Humbrol Clear I like it, but it behaves very differently from regular varnish. You do need to be careful if you're applying it with a hairy brush because it can strip paint if you haven't allowed a while for it to cure (hasn't been a problem for me because I usually airbrush it). It is very thin and self levels really well, which can be both a good and a bad, apply too much on a miniature and it'll tend to pool in areas you might not want and it can show up flaws in the underlying paint more readily than other varnishes because it levels itself around the flaws. One problem I've found with it is that it doesn't paint over decals very well for some reason (though it works well under decals). I discovered on my Spitfire when I sprayed it over the big roundel decals that it beaded up on them.

The main reason I have been using Humbrol clear instead of other gloss varnishes is because usually when I gloss coat a model it's because I want to do weathering with oils and/or apply decals and for that it's brilliant.

Humbrol originally made it as a substitute for Future floor polish, and I've read some reviews of people who don't like it, but I've been liking it.

Humbrol do make several gloss varnishes, this is specifically the one I've been using...
http://www.humbrol.com/uk-en/humbrol-gloss-clear-125ml-bottle.html

You can use it in an airbrush without thinning it (unlike the Vallejo stuff that people say you can use unthinned but clogs my airbrush every time I try it ).

I'm already in the habit of allowing my paint 24 hours to fully cure before applying varnish Skink, so hopefully that'll be long enough that Humbrol won't strip the paint. I had a similar issue with Testor's Dullcote which was what made me adopt this practice, it actually sounds like the two products a sort of similar in that both may offer better protection than the usual Gloss varnishes like Vallejo, GW, AK etc.

Thanks again for your awesome research. If you ever feel like doing more of it, have you considered comparing different brands of additives like flow improver & glaze medium? I've often wondered if some are more effective than others or just perform differently.

Well I do research for a living (though not in material science, fluid dynamics is my area of interest).... so to me, my study on varnishes is probably the worst piece of research I've done since my 1st year of under grad, I certainly wouldn't want my real name associated with it, it might hurt my future job prospects I would have taken it to work and used some of our testing equipment but then the amount of work I'd have to do would blow out considerably

 Minimachine wrote:
Thanks again for your awesome research. If you ever feel like doing more of it, have you considered comparing different brands of additives like flow improver & glaze medium? I've often wondered if some are more effective than others or just perform differently.

Well, I'm not a terribly artistic person so I'm probably not qualified to test things like glazes and flow improver, I could definitely look at the purely from a technical point of view (how they change viscosity, surface energy, etc) but I don't know if that would be as useful to people.

Plus I'd have to buy a bunch of stuff because I don't currently own all that many flow changing products to do a comparison

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Well I do research for a living (though not in material science, fluid dynamics is my area of interest).... so to me, my study on varnishes is probably the worst piece of research I've done since my 1st year of under grad, I certainly wouldn't want my real name associated with it, it might hurt my future job prospects I would have taken it to work and used some of our testing equipment but then the amount of work I'd have to do would blow out considerably

 Minimachine wrote:
Thanks again for your awesome research. If you ever feel like doing more of it, have you considered comparing different brands of additives like flow improver & glaze medium? I've often wondered if some are more effective than others or just perform differently.

Well, I'm not a terribly artistic person so I'm probably not qualified to test things like glazes and flow improver, I could definitely look at the purely from a technical point of view (how they change viscosity, surface energy, etc) but I don't know if that would be as useful to people.

Plus I'd have to buy a bunch of stuff because I don't currently own all that many flow changing products to do a comparison

Fair enough then Skink, though I think there's many of us who'd benefit from such tests if you decide to change your mind. It'd be interesting to see how much drying retarder is present in the various matt mediums, glaze mediums & flow improvers on the market for instance.