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 jokerkd wrote:
Has he chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline?

Flickering fire is a power, it should be included in "ALL"

Both of the quotes specify ALL. You have just changed from reading it as "all generated" to "all chosen". Neither rule states this

Yes he has chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline.

As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

The Chaos Psychic Focus power is not something that is generated, it is something they automatically know if they have a mark.

"If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline’s primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below)." (The psychic Phase section, Psychic focus sub-section). Here they are specifically talking about generated powers.

Psykers generate powers randomly by rolling dice.

"To randomly generate a psychic power, first choose one of the psychic disciplines known to the Psyker. Then, roll a D6 and consult the chosen psychic discipline..." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section).

"Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The psychic Phase section, Generating Psychic Powers sub-section)

The context is talking about powers that are generated. Do not ignore the context.

But you have a power that you did not generate. How do meet the criteria for generating all your powers?

 jokerkd wrote:
But you have a power that you did not generate. How do meet the criteria for generating all your powers?

Because, In context, you generated all of your powers (All of the powers that you generate) from a single discipline...

In context, they are talking about generated powers. You can not ignore the context of the sentences.

Since the context is talking about generated powers...

You only choose powers in regards to the generation rules, so the line about choosing is talking about the powers that you randomly generate.

Chaos Psychic Focus is never generated so the rule about needing to generate all of your powers from the same psychic discipline does not apply to Chaos Psychic Focus, since it is not generated.

Id say a ML3 nurgle psyker would take the nurgle primaris and 1 other power and roll for the other 2 powers.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Has he chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline?

Flickering fire is a power, it should be included in "ALL"

Both of the quotes specify ALL. You have just changed from reading it as "all generated" to "all chosen". Neither rule states this

Yes he has chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline.

No he hasn't. He has a power that he has not chosen and is not from the same discipline. You seem to be having an inexplicable difficulty grasping the concept of "all".

 DeathReaper wrote:
As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

THAT SENTENCE DOES NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The context is talking about powers that are generated. Do not ignore the context.

The only thing I'm ignoring is the extra "generated" you're mentally inserting between "all" and "powers". Context is something that the rest of us use to discern the meaning of a statement that on its own is unclear or incomplete. It is not something that allows you to insert your own words into a clearly written rule in order to completely alter it's meaning. Sorry.

It's the difference between "generating all the powers you generate" and "generating all the powers you have, period."

It's an endless argument. There's fuel for both sides. Ask your opponent if he has a problem with you knowing an extra power even though you don't get any more warp charge to cast it. If he does, don't take the extra power. If he doesn't, take it. It's not gonna break the game nearly as much as jetbike troops with 36" range str6 guns or d weapon templates in jinking transports.

I take chaos and regular focus pretty much every game, and the difference it makes is often completely negligible. Just another choice of powers to cast. Still costs warp charge you probably don't have. It feels right for daemons to know more powers. They're made out of the warp, they should be able to manipulate it in myriad ways.

Anyways, just make sure everyone is on the same page. It probably won't win or lose the game for you anyways. But I personally advocate they can get both.

 jokerkd wrote:
But you have a power that you did not generate. How do meet the criteria for generating all your powers?

So what you're saying is... if I hand you a free power from some item or special rule, you have generated that power...

There's a difference between 'known' powers and 'generated' powers. Freebies aren't generated, they're simply known.

 Arkaine wrote:

So what you're saying is... if I hand you a free power from some item or special rule, you have generated that power...

There's a difference between 'known' powers and 'generated' powers. Freebies aren't generated, they're simply known.

Gaining a power from an item would cause the psyker to lose the Psychic Focus.


I am assuming those who are in favor of a Daemon gaining Psychic Focus are focusing on the fact that the Chaos Psychic Focus is gained before the game starts.

Avadar wrote:

 Arkaine wrote:

So what you're saying is... if I hand you a free power from some item or special rule, you have generated that power...

There's a difference between 'known' powers and 'generated' powers. Freebies aren't generated, they're simply known.

Gaining a power from an item would cause the psyker to lose the Psychic Focus.

Spoiler:

Psychic Focus
If during the course of the game, that Psyker gains a psychic power from a different psychic discipline, he immediately loses Psychic Focus (and the associated primaris power).

I am assuming those who are in favor of a Daemon gaining Psychic Focus are focusing on the fact that the Chaos Psychic Focus is gained before the game starts.

But that wasn't my argument. Gaining the power from another source is not 'generating' a power. Psychic focus being lost is a direct result of a specific rule exception, not because the item's freebie "counts as generating a power". Likewise, if you only go off on the idea that generating all your powers from a source includes ones you simply know, that's wrong too because it only requires that powers be generated from the same list.

Indeed, I see the difference between generating and knowing; but I do not see that the difference matters. The moment a Psyker gains a power from a different discipline (no matter which way the power was gained), he loses Psychic Focus.

Then again, the rules do little to define what "gaining a power" means; and whether or not the Chaos Psychic Focus is "gained" "during the course of the game". But it does provide an exception for "Force" (which is obtained the moment the Psyker has a Force Weapon, which is usually before the game begins) and other non-Discipline Powers. Take that as you may; I personally take it as my daemon psyker never gaining a Non-Chaos Psychic Focus, because he "gained" a power from a different discipline.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:
Has he chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline?

Flickering fire is a power, it should be included in "ALL"

Both of the quotes specify ALL. You have just changed from reading it as "all generated" to "all chosen". Neither rule states this

Yes he has chosen ALL his powers from the same discipline.

No he hasn't. He has a power that he has not chosen and is not from the same discipline. You seem to be having an inexplicable difficulty grasping the concept of "all".

This is of course not what the rule is concerned with.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
As long as a Psyker generates all psychic powers from the same psychic discipline they get psychic focus.

THAT SENTENCE DOES NOT MEAN WHAT YOU THINK IT MEANS.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The context is talking about powers that are generated. Do not ignore the context.

The only thing I'm ignoring is the extra "generated" you're mentally inserting between "all" and "powers". Context is something that the rest of us use to discern the meaning of a statement that on its own is unclear or incomplete. It is not something that allows you to insert your own words into a clearly written rule in order to completely alter it's meaning. Sorry.

Do not ignore the context.

In context they are talking about powers you generate.

The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

And to generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).

So there are two ways to generate a power. granted powers, like the one from Chaos Psychic Focus, are not generated and as such you can still gain Psychic Focus, because you have generated all of your powers from the same discipline.

It is like context is important or something.

Avadar wrote:
Indeed, I see the difference between generating and knowing; but I do not see that the difference matters. The moment a Psyker gains a power from a different discipline (no matter which way the power was gained), he loses Psychic Focus.

Then again, the rules do little to define what "gaining a power" means; and whether or not the Chaos Psychic Focus is "gained" "during the course of the game". But it does provide an exception for "Force" (which is obtained the moment the Psyker has a Force Weapon, which is usually before the game begins) and other non-Discipline Powers. Take that as you may; I personally take it as my daemon psyker never gaining a Non-Chaos Psychic Focus, because he "gained" a power from a different discipline.

Not true, unless it happens during the course of the game. Powers are generated before the game, so this does not apply to Chaos Psychic Focus.

DeathReaper wrote:Not true, unless it happens during the course of the game. Powers are generated before the game, so this does not apply to Chaos Psychic Focus.

Avadar wrote:I am assuming those who are in favor of a Daemon gaining Psychic Focus are focusing on the fact that the Chaos Psychic Focus is gained before the game starts.

Avadar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Not true, unless it happens during the course of the game. Powers are generated before the game, so this does not apply to Chaos Psychic Focus.

Avadar wrote:I am assuming those who are in favor of a Daemon gaining Psychic Focus are focusing on the fact that the Chaos Psychic Focus is gained before the game starts.

Not just that, the actual rules about generating powers as well.

So DR, you are saying the blurb about powers not from disciplines (such as Force) does absolutely nothing and is a waste of space and ink?

If a model does not roll for powers, and instead knows (for example) Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand does the model get Banishment?

 Happyjew wrote:
So DR, you are saying the blurb about powers not from disciplines (such as Force) does absolutely nothing and is a waste of space and ink?

No, it is a simple reminder about Force.

If a model does not roll for powers, and instead knows (for example) Gate of Infinity and Hammerhand does the model get Banishment?

Yes, as those powers were generated.

To generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him." (The Psychic Phase chapter, Generating Psychic Powers section).

So having two powers listed in the Army List Entry is indeed generating the powers listed and as such the psyker will also know the primaris of that discipline.

There are two ways to generate Psychic powers:
1) "In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated."
2) "Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

Prove it.

Here's a hint: repeating the word "context" over and over again with no support from the rules actually written in the rulebook is not proof. You are claiming that despite the fact the rules explicitly state "all of his powers" they really mean "all of his [generated] powers" even though the word in brackets is not written. I'm asking you to prove it using the RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:
To generate a power "Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins...In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him."

I'd argue that the part you left out

BRB wrote:Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins. This is done openly, so both you and your opponent are aware of the power(s) each Psyker has generated. If your army includes more than one Psyker, you can choose the order in which you generate their powers.

actually implies that the powers already known a unit are NOT considered generated. suspicious editing imo. It makes a lot more sense when read from the book, as you can quite clearly see that

Psykers generate their psychic powers before the game begins.

Is not even in the same paragraph as "

In some Army List Entries, a Psyker will have one or more specific psychic powers listed – where this is the case, it will be clearly stated. These Psykers always start the game with those psychic powers. Otherwise, a Psyker generates random psychic powers from amongst the psychic disciplines known to him.........

Arkaine wrote: So what you're saying is... if I hand you a free power from some item or special rule, you have generated that power...

There's a difference between 'known' powers and 'generated' powers. Freebies aren't generated, they're simply known.

No, I'm saying that they are not generated

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

Prove it.

Here's a hint: repeating the word "context" over and over again with no support from the rules actually written in the rulebook is not proof. You are claiming that despite the fact the rules explicitly state "all of his powers" they really mean "all of his [generated] powers" even though the word in brackets is not written. I'm asking you to prove it using the RAW.

I have, you have ignored rules quotes and Context.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule states "If a Psyker generates all of his powers from the same psychic discipline..."

This rule does not count non generated powers, as it concerns itself only with the powers that are generated.

Prove it.

Here's a hint: repeating the word "context" over and over again with no support from the rules actually written in the rulebook is not proof. You are claiming that despite the fact the rules explicitly state "all of his powers" they really mean "all of his [generated] powers" even though the word in brackets is not written. I'm asking you to prove it using the RAW.

I have, you have ignored rules quotes and Context.

No, you have quoted a bunch of rules that would prove your point if your premise - that "all of his powers" really means "all of his [generated] powers" despite the fact that the word in brackets is not written there - were correct. So either prove that the quoted rule means what you think it means rather than what it literally says or, in keeping with the tenets of this forum, mark your argument as HYWPI rather than the RAW. Thanks.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, you have quoted a bunch of rules that would prove your point if your premise - that "all of his powers" really means "all of his [generated] powers"

It does if you do not ignore the context...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, you have quoted a bunch of rules that would prove your point if your premise - that "all of his powers" really means "all of his [generated] powers"

It does if you do not ignore the context...

Prove it.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, you have quoted a bunch of rules that would prove your point if your premise - that "all of his powers" really means "all of his [generated] powers"

It does if you do not ignore the context...

Prove it.

I have, with rules quotes and everything...

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, you have quoted a bunch of rules that would prove your point if your premise - that "all of his powers" really means "all of his [generated] powers"

It does if you do not ignore the context...

Prove it.

I have, with rules quotes and everything...

No, you have quoted a rule and then failed to interpret it correctly. So once again, tell me what is the difference between the following 2 statements?

1. If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

2. If all of the psychic powers a Psyker generates are from the same psychic discipline (even if he can only generate one power), that Psyker is said to have Psychic Focus, and gains that discipline's primaris power in addition to his other powers.

If you can't identify the difference in meaning between the above 2 statements then there's really nothing more to discuss. In that case I'd strongly recommend brushing up on your English grammar skills before proceding. Thanks.

So, wait. To those who are arguing that knowing any other power that isn't a part of the discipline makes you lose Psychic Focus...wouldn't by that argument mean that no Pysker ever is capable of obtaining the Primaris powers?

Because every single Psyker knows Force. It's just a part of their rules, since they have force weapons. If you include already known powers, then Primaris powers are almost always moot if they have force weapons.

Maybe this has been addressed already, I don't know. If it has, forgive me and just forget this post

But either way, I don't think I've ever seen anyone playing it where known powers remove Primaris.

One quoted rule was that if the Pysker gains any powers over the course of the game that are outside the proper discipline, then they lose the Primaris power. But the thing is, this isn't 'during the game' yet. This is all pre game, before deployment. I guess this all depends on a players definition of 'when the game starts' in regards to that rule.

The Psychic Focus rule specifically exempts Force (and other psychic powers that are not part of a discipline) from the Psychic Focus restrictions.

I do not know if there is a way to gain a Force Weapon (thus gaining access to the Force psychic power) during the course of the game; but if there is none, it is odd that it specifically exempts Force (a known and not generated power) from Psychic Focus. This could either be seen as a show of intent (that known powers do count for Psychic Focus, thus the explanation is needed) or just the standard GW Rules Writing mishap (the exemption is redundant and was included because GW). Which sadly means it does not really help in the discussion at hand.

Also Mantle of the Stormseer grants the librarian Psychic Maelstrom but specifically exempts this from removing Psychic Focus. If "all his powers" really meant "all his [generated] powers" the exemption would be unnecessary. So RAW and RAI seem to be in agreement here.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
No, you have quoted a rule and then failed to interpret it correctly.

This is incorrect, as I have shown in previous posts.

I see two ways of reading the rule.

1. Generated powers include all powers a Psyker knows, whether by rolling for a power, getting a power from wargear, or knowing a power standard.

2. Generated powers only include the powers you roll for.

My problem with interpretation number 2 (which to me appears to be DeathReaper's interpretation) is that it makes the rule about not including non-discipline powers do absolutely nothing. Additionally it also means that models that come with set powers (such as Broodlords) do not benefit from Psychic Focus, in which case the change to the Powers of the Hive Mind primaris does absolutely nothing as the only model it applies to is Broodlords.

Since I go with interpretation number 1, it means that if you benefit from Chaos Psychic Focus, you cannot benefit from Psychic Focus.

 Happyjew wrote:
I see two ways of reading the rule.

1. Generated powers include all powers a Psyker knows, whether by rolling for a power, getting a power from wargear, or knowing a power standard.

2. Generated powers only include the powers you roll for.

My problem with interpretation number 2 (which to me appears to be DeathReaper's interpretation) is that it makes the rule about not including non-discipline powers do absolutely nothing. Additionally it also means that models that come with set powers (such as Broodlords) do not benefit from Psychic Focus, in which case the change to the Powers of the Hive Mind primaris does absolutely nothing as the only model it applies to is Broodlords.

Since I go with interpretation number 1, it means that if you benefit from Chaos Psychic Focus, you cannot benefit from Psychic Focus.

There are a few redundant reminders for rules, why should this be any different?