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 LordofHats wrote:
We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change.

Not to worry. The rest of the internet has you covered.

 LordofHats wrote:
Honestly the thread has kind of confirmed one of my original assumptions. We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change.

I think I did make some attempt to discuss this earlier... FWIW here's how I'd break it down:

Generally speaking there are roles/issues that we can make conscious and purposeful efforts to change.

Then, there are roles/issues that change, but when we look back at the trail of evidence for why it changed, we scratch our heads, shrug and move on with life. We may, in this case see a particular trend or event of significance and say, "that's where X really started to change" but as we go about our daily lives, there are minute changes that occur at the societal level and we just don't really notice it.



Take for instance, in the time of my grand parents. It was expected that the elementary school teacher was one of two types of women in a public school: the young, unmarried girl, fresh from college who is merely "looking for mr. right". She would generally only teach until she found Mr. Right, and then began popping out her allotted 2.5 children. The other type, was the old cantankerous B- who didn't take gak from nobody (probably why she was unsuccessful in finding Mr. Right), she may or may not be/have been married... but she's old, wrinkly, sees everything and is meaner than a crocodile with a splinter in its belly.

By the time my mother was in school, and especially by the time I was in school, this had completely changed where there are even male teachers, teachers with families and just everyday "normal" people who are teaching kids. Did society make a conscious change in this case? Did a small group of teachers make the conscious effort to change public opinion? Or did it simply happen over a prolonged period of time?

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Honestly the thread has kind of confirmed one of my original assumptions. We've not really talked at all about how Gender roles might or could change.

I think I did make some attempt to discuss this earlier... FWIW here's how I'd break it down:

Generally speaking there are roles/issues that we can make conscious and purposeful efforts to change.

Then, there are roles/issues that change, but when we look back at the trail of evidence for why it changed, we scratch our heads, shrug and move on with life. We may, in this case see a particular trend or event of significance and say, "that's where X really started to change" but as we go about our daily lives, there are minute changes that occur at the societal level and we just don't really notice it.



Take for instance, in the time of my grand parents. It was expected that the elementary school teacher was one of two types of women in a public school: the young, unmarried girl, fresh from college who is merely "looking for mr. right". She would generally only teach until she found Mr. Right, and then began popping out her allotted 2.5 children. The other type, was the old cantankerous B- who didn't take gak from nobody (probably why she was unsuccessful in finding Mr. Right), she may or may not be/have been married... but she's old, wrinkly, sees everything and is meaner than a crocodile with a splinter in its belly.

By the time my mother was in school, and especially by the time I was in school, this had completely changed where there are even male teachers, teachers with families and just everyday "normal" people who are teaching kids. Did society make a conscious change in this case? Did a small group of teachers make the conscious effort to change public opinion? Or did it simply happen over a prolonged period of time?

That seems to be the case in a variety of professions.

Nursing used to be similar in that you have the young pretty nurse just holding out until she can snatch herself a doctor to marry, and then Nurse Ratchet. Now you have guys like me running around nursing all over the place.

 d-usa wrote:

That seems to be the case in a variety of professions.

Nursing used to be similar in that you have the young pretty nurse just holding out until she can snatch herself a doctor to marry, and then Nurse Ratchet. Now you have guys like me running around nursing all over the place.

Lol, I thought the stereotype was that ALL male nurses back in the day worked the psych ward



Which, for some odd reason reminds me of an article I read about 5 years back or so.... Basically, Sweden had seen such a rise in the percentage of female veterinarians, that they were considering adopting an "affirmative action" program to get more men into it

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Lol, I thought the stereotype was that ALL male nurses back in the day worked the psych ward

There is still a certain tendency to see male nurses in more of the fast paced high stress environments like ER/ICU/Psych and more female nurses in the "caring" environments like OB/neonatal/hospice.

And yet, you often see jokes about male nurses. Or nurses in general.

We are currently in a gender shifting stage. Where the "traditional" (by which I mean, 19 century) roles are starting to fade. Some people can keep up with the change, some can't and some don't want too. Some also want to change too much, there are extremists in both camps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-34700033


even the trees are getting with the times !

If I was a man for 5000 years, I'd probably fancy a change too.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


Which, for some odd reason reminds me of an article I read about 5 years back or so.... Basically, Sweden had seen such a rise in the percentage of female veterinarians, that they were considering adopting an "affirmative action" program to get more men into it

Not only did we consider it, it's currently in effect IIRC.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


Which, for some odd reason reminds me of an article I read about 5 years back or so.... Basically, Sweden had seen such a rise in the percentage of female veterinarians, that they were considering adopting an "affirmative action" program to get more men into it

Not only did we consider it, it's currently in effect IIRC.

I couldn't "IIRC" so I didn't put whether it got put in place.... good to know though

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:


Which, for some odd reason reminds me of an article I read about 5 years back or so.... Basically, Sweden had seen such a rise in the percentage of female veterinarians, that they were considering adopting an "affirmative action" program to get more men into it

Not only did we consider it, it's currently in effect IIRC.

Fascinating!

I didn't know that was a problem.

I never have heard of something like that!

Anyway.

I have a good question

What else could be considered a Social Construct?

Easily gender is pointed to being one.

 Asherian Command wrote:

What else could be considered a Social Construct?

Easily gender is pointed to being one.

Generally speaking, our accepted "public manners" are social constructs. Things as simple as saying please and thank you in restaurants, holding doors open for others.

Every single law in existence is a social construct as well.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Every single law in existence is a social construct as well.

Except for gravity

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Every single law in existence is a social construct as well.

Except for gravity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hK-b4-iia8o

Ahem. You mean "Intelligent Falling".

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

What else could be considered a Social Construct?

Easily gender is pointed to being one.

Generally speaking, our accepted "public manners" are social constructs. Things as simple as saying please and thank you in restaurants, holding doors open for others.

You could also have virginity, identity, political standing, as a construct.

And of course the perception of fortune and beauty. (which are obvious)

I'd pose virginity itself is not a construct. It's based in a fact; that you are someone who hasn't had sex yet. But all the assumptions we make about virginity are definitely constructs (like that a virgin man isn't a real man, or that a virgin woman is more pure).

 LordofHats wrote:
I'd pose virginity itself is not a construct. It's based in a fact; that you are someone who hasn't had sex yet. But all the assumptions we make about virginity are definitely constructs (like that a virgin man isn't a real man, or that a virgin woman is more pure).

It's also a social construct because "sex" does not have a single definition.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:

What else could be considered a Social Construct?

Easily gender is pointed to being one.

Generally speaking, our accepted "public manners" are social constructs. Things as simple as saying please and thank you in restaurants, holding doors open for others.

Oh man, I'd love to talk about sneezing and the bizarre social requirement to acknowledge a sneeze; even for strangers. Typically that acknowledgment is in the form of saying "Bless You" but there are other variants too. What I find interesting is how upset people get if you don't say something after they sneeze. Again, even strangers.

I am familiar with why we say bless you, but I doubt most people who utter it reflexively when someone around them sneezes truly believe the superstitious elements that are embedded in the phrase.

But still, people get irritated if you don't say something after they blow mucus. Why we feel the need to elevate one gross bodily function over others is beyond me, but acknowledging a sneeze is definitely one social construct I'd like to see fade away.

The fact that the status of virginity is significant is a social construct.

In most cases is no physical way of knowing for certain if someone is a virgin or not. It's even possible to have a hymen reconstruction operation. In other words, only the individual themself can know if they are a true virgin. (And unicorns, of course.)

All the psycho-sexual baggage around the putative status of virginity is social construction.

There might be arbitrary rules some societies further place on the concept that qualify as constructs, but there is a point where virginity is based on a 'yes' 'no' status. To me that fits my previous statement XD Virginity is a thing, but we make mountains of assumptions about it that are fundamentally arbitrary. That real value is placed on being or not being a virgin is pretty subjective.

 LordofHats wrote:
I'd pose virginity itself is not a construct. It's based in a fact; that you are someone who hasn't had sex yet.

But what is sex? Conceptions differ.

 LordofHats wrote:
There might be arbitrary rules some societies further place on the concept that qualify as constructs, but there is a point where virginity is based on a 'yes' 'no' status. To me that fits my previous statement XD Virginity is a thing, but we make mountains of assumptions about it that are fundamentally arbitrary. That real value is placed on being or not being a virgin is pretty subjective.

It's a yes/no status that in general can't be proved and has no specific objective value either way.

Unlike say a broken leg.

 LordofHats wrote:
There might be arbitrary rules some societies further place on the concept that qualify as constructs, but there is a point where virginity is based on a 'yes' 'no' status.

No there isn't. There is no single physical state that everyone would agree on to define "virgin". If you disagree, please try to define the term.

 dogma wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I'd pose virginity itself is not a construct. It's based in a fact; that you are someone who hasn't had sex yet.

But what is sex? Conceptions differ.

virginity, as in someone who has not engaged in intercourse with another member of the same species....

The social construct part does come into play if we wanted (I hope we dont) to discuss various orifices, masturbation and other actions which many would consider foreplay.

 Peregrine wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
There might be arbitrary rules some societies further place on the concept that qualify as constructs, but there is a point where virginity is based on a 'yes' 'no' status.

No there isn't. There is no single physical state that everyone would agree on to define "virgin". If you disagree, please try to define the term.

An just-born infant is a true virgin. Totally uncorrupted by anything.

 dogma wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
I'd pose virginity itself is not a construct. It's based in a fact; that you are someone who hasn't had sex yet.

But what is sex? Conceptions differ.

Sex is when two people love each other very much and practice the ancient stork sacrifice ritual to summon babies. It's a very basic summonig spell.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
An just-born infant is a true virgin. Totally uncorrupted by anything.

And at what point do they cease to be a virgin? Your definition is only half complete.

Also, thanks for proving my point about it being a social construct, by bringing in this idea of "uncorrupted" being the defining quality rather than a specific physical state.

 Peregrine wrote:

And at what point do they cease to be a virgin?

The most commonly held definition of virginity is one in which a person has not engaged in intercourse with another being.


Of course, where we get into the social construct part is if we begin discussing orifices used (please don't), masturbation and other sometimes frowned upon activities.