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 Mr. Shine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Actually using anything other than stock GW models is against the rules. The rules give us permission to use Citadel Miniatures to play the game. You have to now show allowance to use a non-citadel miniature.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Agreed. So mr shine please show me the rules in the book to use a non citadel miniature.

You're shifting the burden. You've both claimed there is a rule against modeling for advantage and are trying to brush over providing one by making another claim and asking me to provide the reference you in fact should be giving.

At a glance the rules say the Citadel miniatures used to play the game are referred to as models, but I'm not aware of a rule requiring us to use only Citadel miniatures.

So you can't show us an official barricade model to purchase? The one that is officially for this upgrade? Then I'm afraid I can't allow it.

I don't need to; you're the one making the claim there is a rule requiring you to use Citadel miniatures and that there is a rule disallowing modeling for advantage, and yet you're refusing to provide a reference and on top of that are trying to get me to do so for you.

Considering we're in agreement it'd be a dick move to do in the first place, regardless of whether it's legitimate or not, it's a bit pointless for me to try and find rules support for your position.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Actually using anything other than stock GW models is against the rules. The rules give us permission to use Citadel Miniatures to play the game. You have to now show allowance to use a non-citadel miniature.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Agreed. So mr shine please show me the rules in the book to use a non citadel miniature.

You're shifting the burden. You've both claimed there is a rule against modeling for advantage and are trying to brush over providing one by making another claim and asking me to provide the reference you in fact should be giving.

At a glance the rules say the Citadel miniatures used to play the game are referred to as models, but I'm not aware of a rule requiring us to use only Citadel miniatures.

Really? That's dumb. You are saying I could use random models and proxy them as "Citadel Miniatures"? No... you have to use the models you are representing

^Yes you can, if you want to be TFG. Counts-As armies can be anything.

Though not at most tournaments obviously. GW used to (maybe they still do, no clue) say that the models needed to be at least 50% GW product for their tournaments, iirc.

notredameguy10 wrote:
Really? That's dumb. You are saying I could use random models and proxy them as "Citadel Miniatures"? No... you have to use the models you are representing

What You See Is What You Get hasn't been a rule since... 4th or 5th Edition?

I'm not saying that at all, though. I'm just pointing out they haven't actually provided a reference stating you must use Citadel miniatures.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Actually using anything other than stock GW models is against the rules. The rules give us permission to use Citadel Miniatures to play the game. You have to now show allowance to use a non-citadel miniature.

Pain4Pleasure wrote:
Agreed. So mr shine please show me the rules in the book to use a non citadel miniature.

You're shifting the burden. You've both claimed there is a rule against modeling for advantage and are trying to brush over providing one by making another claim and asking me to provide the reference you in fact should be giving.

At a glance the rules say the Citadel miniatures used to play the game are referred to as models, but I'm not aware of a rule requiring us to use only Citadel miniatures.

It is a permissive ruleset you have to show permissiom to be able to do something. For instance there is no rule saying I can't declare myself the winner at any point and then start smashing up your models with a hammer.

So we agree there is permission to use Citadel miniatures. Now show permission to use anything else? It is a permissive ruleset if you say you can do something the onus is on you to show permission.

 Mr. Shine wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Really? That's dumb. You are saying I could use random models and proxy them as "Citadel Miniatures"? No... you have to use the models you are representing

What You See Is What You Get hasn't been a rule since... 4th or 5th Edition?

I'm not saying that at all, though. I'm just pointing out they haven't actually provided a reference stating you must use Citadel miniatures.

Here is what says you use Citadel Mini's.


"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Really? That's dumb. You are saying I could use random models and proxy them as "Citadel Miniatures"? No... you have to use the models you are representing

What You See Is What You Get hasn't been a rule since... 4th or 5th Edition?

I'm not saying that at all, though. I'm just pointing out they haven't actually provided a reference stating you must use Citadel miniatures.

Here is what says you use Citadel Mini's.


"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

So Forgeworld models are illegal, since they are not Citadel? But, there is still no actual requirement to use Citadel models. in that statement, just what they are referring to.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Really? That's dumb. You are saying I could use random models and proxy them as "Citadel Miniatures"? No... you have to use the models you are representing

What You See Is What You Get hasn't been a rule since... 4th or 5th Edition?

I'm not saying that at all, though. I'm just pointing out they haven't actually provided a reference stating you must use Citadel miniatures.

Here is what says you use Citadel Mini's.


"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

So Forgeworld models are illegal, since they are not Citadel? But, there is still no actual requirement to use Citadel models. in that statement, just what they are referring to.

Permissive ruleset. Yes without permission you can not use Forgeworld models nor declare yourself the winner at the start of the game...

 FlingitNow wrote:
Permissive ruleset. Yes without permission you can not use Forgeworld models nor declare yourself the winner at the start of the game...

Ummm, no, I don't think so. There is a huge difference between using Forgeworld models and declaring yourself the winner of the game. The point still stands that it is not a requirement.

Charistoph wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Permissive ruleset. Yes without permission you can not use Forgeworld models nor declare yourself the winner at the start of the game...

Ummm, no, I don't think so. There is a huge difference between using Forgeworld models and declaring yourself the winner of the game. The point still stands that it is not a requirement.

It is a requirement because of the permissive ruleset.

 FlingitNow wrote:
It is a permissive ruleset you have to show permissiom to be able to do something. For instance there is no rule saying I can't declare myself the winner at any point and then start smashing up your models with a hammer.

So we agree there is permission to use Citadel miniatures. Now show permission to use anything else? It is a permissive ruleset if you say you can do something the onus is on you to show permission.

Permission to use something is not by itself a restriction against using something else.

Additionally, you've yet to provide and we've not agreed there is a statement saying, "You may use Citadel scenery in games of Warhammer 40,000."

Searching through the rulebook I've found references to both terrain and scenery in general as well as Citadel terrain and Citadel scenery. There are many references to Citadel terrain/scenery being able to be used in games, as well as general terrain/scenery.

Burden is still yours.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is a requirement because of the permissive ruleset.

Not alongside statements about using terrain or scenery without the Citadel prefix (i.e. terrain or scenery in general).

 Mr. Shine wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It is a requirement because of the permissive ruleset.

Not alongside statements about using terrain or scenery without the Citadel prefix (i.e. terrain or scenery in general).

You have to have permission to do anything in 40K...

We have permission to use Citadel models.

Do you have permission to use any other models?

If so please quote the rule that allows non-citadel models to be used.

There's a paragraph on scratch-built terrain, titled Scratch-built Terrain.

More relevantly though, the rules often talk about simply 'terrain' or 'scenery' without mentioning Citadel at all. You're making up an exclusive permission for only Citadel but not non-Citadel terrain.

And once again no one has provided a reference stating, "You may use Citadel scenery in your games." We've only got the mention of Citadel miniatures being referred to as models, which is not the same.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
There's a paragraph on scratch-built terrain, titled Scratch-built Terrain.

More relevantly though, the rules often talk about simply 'terrain' or 'scenery' without mentioning Citadel at all. You're making up an exclusive permission for only Citadel but not non-Citadel terrain.

And once again no one has provided a reference stating, "You may use Citadel scenery in your games." We've only got the mention of Citadel miniatures being referred to as models, which is not the same.

We were discussing models, as in Citadel models...

Show permission to use anything other than citadel.

Page and Graph please.

Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

There is the rule.

Do you have a rule stating you can use something other than Citadel models?

If so Page and Graph please.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:
Really? That's dumb. You are saying I could use random models and proxy them as "Citadel Miniatures"? No... you have to use the models you are representing

What You See Is What You Get hasn't been a rule since... 4th or 5th Edition?

I'm not saying that at all, though. I'm just pointing out they haven't actually provided a reference stating you must use Citadel miniatures.

Here is what says you use Citadel Mini's.


"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

So Forgeworld models are illegal, since they are not Citadel? But, there is still no actual requirement to use Citadel models. in that statement, just what they are referring to.

Permissive ruleset. Yes without permission you can not use Forgeworld models nor declare yourself the winner at the start of the game...

I also have missed the rule saying we can only use Citadel models to play the game. Could you please post the rule or give the page number so I can look it up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

Don't hold your breath waiting for a response, because they can't give you one. So they fall back to one sentence that doesn't restrict or permit anything, claiming that it does.

Yes, let's ignore the modeling aspect of the game completely

. Well this is what was accepted.. there are no rules stating I have to use a citadel barricade (which doesn't exist).. I've only added about 3mm height and a touch more length to make it the authorised 6" in the rule book.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

There is the rule.

Do you have a rule stating you can use something other than Citadel models?

If so Page and Graph please.

I agree, so as we can see from DR's statement; if you have a citadel miniature that is a bastion, it is referred to as a model in the rules that follow.

sure RAW you can only use citadel MODELS, but TMIR & TSOTG says forget that.

Sn33R wrote:
. Well this is what was accepted.. there are no rules stating I have to use a citadel barricade (which doesn't exist).. I've only added about 3mm height and a touch more length to make it the authorised 6" in the rule book.

That's nice and works for the barricade upgrade on your fortification, but does not give you a cover save

Yes it does.. that's exactly more than 25%. Covered ..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[img=http://s7.postimg.org/m7qseahdj/IMAG0266.jpg]. There's all the measurements plasma obliterate on top and barricade on bottom... I've just come back from my local gw showed them the model, the rule book and they can't fault it either.. the rule book says if a vehicle is more than 25% covered you gain the 4+ cover save, in stronghold assault you treat fortifications as vehicles. The rules for barricades is there 6" long nothing about height, there is no barricade model so I used the aegis as a template and made one.

Sn33R wrote:
Yes it does.. that's exactly more than 25%. Covered ..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[img=http://s7.postimg.org/m7qseahdj/IMAG0266.jpg]. There's all the measurements plasma obliterate on top and barricade on bottom... I've just come back from my local gw showed them the model, the rule book and they can't fault it either.. the rule book says if a vehicle is more than 25% covered you gain the 4+ cover save, in stronghold assault you treat fortifications as vehicles. The rules for barricades is there 6" long nothing about height, there is no barricade model so I used the aegis as a template and made one.

You are trying to cheese the rules and cheat.

So based on your interpretation, I could make the barricade 6" tall so basically any model I have behind it is completely covered? No, you would not get a cover save because you are MODELING TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. this is the same as if I would make a flyer twice as tall on a stand in the air so less units would be able to shoot at it or by changes the size of the base my models are on to get an advantage.

Sn33R wrote:
Yes it does.. that's exactly more than 25%. Covered ..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
[img=http://s7.postimg.org/m7qseahdj/IMAG0266.jpg]. There's all the measurements plasma obliterate on top and barricade on bottom... I've just come back from my local gw showed them the model, the rule book and they can't fault it either.. the rule book says if a vehicle is more than 25% covered you gain the 4+ cover save, in stronghold assault you treat fortifications as vehicles. The rules for barricades is there 6" long nothing about height, there is no barricade model so I used the aegis as a template and made one.

I don't believe you at all when saying you talked to gw employees, and even if you did, they know nothing. It's cheating, at any real major tourney won't be allowed, and honesty, if you said it got a 4+ cover, I'd say I had cast invisibility on my entire army, but you couldn't see it due to me modeling my models for invincibility, and I'd have nothing on the table, to represent invisibility, so have fun trying to shoot at me. Show me in the rule book where I wouldn't be allowed to do this? And when you can't, just know you're looking very bad to this community since you blatantly want to cheat by creating your own terrain. A barricade does not confer the cover save special rule. Learn the rules or stop playing 40k please

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

There is the rule.

Do you have a rule stating you can use something other than Citadel models?

If so Page and Graph please.

I agree, so as we can see from DR's statement; if you have a citadel miniature that is a bastion, it is referred to as a model in the rules that follow.

sure RAW you can only use citadel MODELS, but TMIR & TSOTG says forget that.

TMIR says forget everything. Check the tenets and TMIR (it's not fun for me if I don't auto win etc). So do you have ANY permission to use anything other than citadel miniatures.

I can't believe people are still arguing with these trolls going on and on about their "only citadel allowed" dickery.

DaPino wrote:
I can't believe people are still arguing with these trolls going on and on about their "only citadel allowed" dickery.

Is the trolls for not anything to allow him to mode for advantage? You have your priorities screwed up

DaPino wrote:
I can't believe people are still arguing with these trolls going on and on about their "only citadel allowed" dickery.

No one is saying that. What we're saying is that RaW ONLY gives permission to use citadel miniatures. Therefore any conversion or counts as you use requires your opponents permission and thus not only is MFA poor form but actually against the rules.

 FlingitNow wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

There is the rule.

Do you have a rule stating you can use something other than Citadel models?

If so Page and Graph please.

I agree, so as we can see from DR's statement; if you have a citadel miniature that is a bastion, it is referred to as a model in the rules that follow.

sure RAW you can only use citadel MODELS, but TMIR & TSOTG says forget that.

TMIR says forget everything. Check the tenets and TMIR (it's not fun for me if I don't auto win etc). So do you have ANY permission to use anything other than citadel miniatures.

So I agreed with you and you still want to argue, interesting.

By all means play that way, only citadel miniatures, it's RAW after all. It's one way to avoid people using void shield generators, sorry you missed the limited edition run you don't get one. It also means no modified or kit bashed models, sorry it's not a citadel mini, you modified it, you can't use it. And let me jump in ahead of DR where he'll tell me the bastion is not a model, so you can't use any terrain. Because they're not models, they can't be used in the game. Sounds like a fun game, enjoy.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
Sorry, nope. You've not even provided reference for your own claim. I've given one example and pointed out the rules make common reference to non-specific terrain and scenery; no mention of Citadel at all.

"The Citadel miniatures used to play games of Warhammer 40,000 are referred to as ‘models’ in the rules that follow." (Models and Units chapter, 1st graph).

There is the rule.

Do you have a rule stating you can use something other than Citadel models?

If so Page and Graph please.

I agree, so as we can see from DR's statement; if you have a citadel miniature that is a bastion, it is referred to as a model in the rules that follow.

sure RAW you can only use citadel MODELS, but TMIR & TSOTG says forget that.

TMIR says forget everything. Check the tenets and TMIR (it's not fun for me if I don't auto win etc). So do you have ANY permission to use anything other than citadel miniatures.

So I agreed with you and you still want to argue, interesting.

By all means play that way, only citadel miniatures, it's RAW after all. It's one way to avoid people using void shield generators, sorry you missed the limited edition run you don't get one. It also means no modified or kit bashed models, sorry it's not a citadel mini, you modified it, you can't use it. And let me jump in ahead of DR where he'll tell me the bastion is not a model, so you can't use any terrain. Because they're not models, they can't be used in the game. Sounds like a fun game, enjoy.

yes exactly. If its a casual game then your opponent will have no problem allowing it. If it is a tournament game then no, RAW disallows it because you are cheating to get an advantage.