Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Jancoran wrote:
Talos are in fact not bad.

They're decent in the formations, otherwise they are bad. Slow, no invulnerable save, negligible shooting and low strength.

 Jancoran wrote:
Voidraven is flat out filthy, especially if the enemy's plan for flyers is to "ignore them".

Yeah, I'm sure the enemy is just quaking in their boots at the thought of an AV10 bomber with a single bomb that can't hover to capture objectives.

Oh I imagine the guys having it dropped on them will care a fair amount. And since it can attack two different targets in the round it comes on that second unit will care a lot too. You really are underestimating it, but that's a pattern, so whatevs.

Also: Pointing out something sucks "unless" its used in XYZ fashion...when it CAN be used in XYZ fashion... makes no sense.

Fact is it can be. Fact is it is. Fact is it works. So what really is your point? They are good and there are few things that can stand up to them.

The few things that can aren't ever their targets.

 Jancoran wrote:
Oh I imagine the guys having it dropped on them will care a fair amount.

Perhaps. *If* you can find a good target. But I still haven't heard why the Voidraven is good. Okay, once per game it can drop a S9 AP2 large blast. So what? If I play Necrons, I can get a Doomsday Arc for 10pts more than the Voidraven. That can drop a S10 AP1 Large Blast at 72" range every turn.

What exactly makes this once-per-game S9 AP2 large blast so amazing?

 Jancoran wrote:
And since it can attack two different targets in the round it comes on that second unit will care a lot too.

Yes, because 2 Dark Lances with +1S are such terrifying weapons.

 Jancoran wrote:
You really are underestimating it, but that's a pattern, so whatevs.

No, you're vastly overestimating it. Just like you overestimated that idiotic IG blob you boasted about in two other threads.

 Jancoran wrote:

Also: Pointing out something sucks "unless" its used in XYZ fashion...when it CAN be used in XYZ fashion... makes no sense.

Why not? The unit still exists outside of those formations. And, in the case of the CTC, I'm willing to bet a lot of lists might not have a spare 600+pts. Many players might not even be able to afford the requisite 5 Talos. Hell, some players might not even own the Coven book. Hence, I'd say it does matter. A lot.

 Jancoran wrote:

Fact is it can be.

Yes, can be. Not is.

 Jancoran wrote:
Fact is it is.

No it isn't.

 Jancoran wrote:
So what really is your point?

That a crap unit having some very restrictive and expensive formations to make it a slightly less crap, in a different book no less, does not somehow make the unit magically better. Those formations might be good, but the unit still exists outside of them and is still just as crap.

 Jancoran wrote:
They are good and there are few things that can stand up to them.

I've yet to hear even a shred of evidence as to why the Talos is good, which I admit is typical of your "arguments".

And, what do you mean 'few things that can stand up to them'? Are we discounting virtually every other MC in the game? Along with a good deal of SCs, HQs and Walkers? Not to mention stuff like Grav.

In many cases, you might not even need to kill them. Certainly not quickly. Their only ranged weapon is a pea-shooter and they couldn't outrun a glacier.




Frankly though, I'm not even interested as to your reasons why Talos and Voidraven are the most powerful thing since your ridiculous 600pt IG squad. I've already heard more than enough baseless claims from you, so welcome to my ignore list.

 Jancoran wrote:
Oh I imagine the guys having it dropped on them will care a fair amount. And since it can attack two different targets in the round it comes on that second unit will care a lot too. You really are underestimating it, but that's a pattern, so whatevs.

Also: Pointing out something sucks "unless" its used in XYZ fashion...when it CAN be used in XYZ fashion... makes no sense.

Fact is it can be. Fact is it is. Fact is it works. So what really is your point? They are good and there are few things that can stand up to them.

The few things that can aren't ever their targets.

It does matter though.

In the same way, Tactical Marines still suck. Just because they can unlock free Razorbacks doesn't mean they're any good themselves. It's pretty hard to get such formations in at a low point level anyway.

To be fair, S9 AP2 Barrage (virtue of being a Bomb weapon) is pretty good.

The problem is the platform it's on and the fact it's one time so if you miss...you miss.

I might proxy one. My Blitzabombas do work for me when I bring one and they are only S7 (granted an additional bomb and cheaper which may factor into it a bit more).

Talos work in Corpsethief only. Maybe Dark Artisan if you're running a slower list.

 Jancoran wrote:
Oh I imagine the guys having it dropped on them will care a fair amount. And since it can attack two different targets in the round it comes on that second unit will care a lot too. You really are underestimating it, but that's a pattern, so whatevs.

Also: Pointing out something sucks "unless" its used in XYZ fashion...when it CAN be used in XYZ fashion... makes no sense.

Fact is it can be. Fact is it is. Fact is it works. So what really is your point? They are good and there are few things that can stand up to them.

The few things that can aren't ever their targets.

I agree with Vipoid, you're not being fair at all. Pointing out the Talos is bad unless taken in CTC or the Dark Artisan formation is *incredibly* important. Some communities are against formations in general (to many free special rules), many players don't own the entirely separate book necessary to run these formations and these formations have strict model requirements (in the case of the CTC the requirement is extreme, 5 Talosi is a lot). So his point makes a lot of sense, and while i agree few things can stand up to a full CTC i can name a few things. Grav weapons, Wraithknights and Knights (will probably die in return, but they will take out far more then their points), D-Scythes, those new Mechanicum guns that do D3 wounds, anything that moves over 12'' can stay out of their range almost indefinitely.

And the Void Raven? I've used it, it is simply not worth it's points. It costs far to many points for what can essentially be taken down by Bolters. That amazing bomb doesn't ignore cover and isn't AP 1, so it isn't great against infantry and isn't an auto delete on a vehicle, and to actually pass over an enemy model may put you in a bad position, I've had my Void Raven explode to a single rapid firing plasma in a combat squad when i over extended to drop the bomb. The sad thing is, that isn't even statistically very unlikely.

And as for your earlier comment about the loss of the Baron not being a good reason to quit, you underestimate him. He was one of those characters that opened up entirely different play styles, namely Hellions as troops. Someone who bought several units of 5 Hellions (they were actually very good objective grabbers, very cheap and surprisingly shooty) to act as there troops now doesn't have a troops choice. Someone like me who used him to allow the Beast Pack to be viable have wasted hours converting the models up. It's just a bad precedent, and you shouldn't belittle the loss GW dealt to some people.

 vipoid wrote:

What exactly makes this once-per-game S9 AP2 large blast so amazing?

That would the STR 9 and the AP 2


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

Yes, because 2 Dark Lances with +1S are such terrifying weapons.

You'd prefer the alternative -1 STR Dark Lance? I see.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

No, you're vastly overestimating it. Just like you overestimated that idiotic IG blob you boasted about in two other threads.

Beat me with it. or be silent. Your choice. As for that comment, heres mineL stop dragging irrelvant arguments from old threads the MODERATORS felt it good to lock into others. Just some advice.

 Frozocrone wrote:
To be fair, S9 AP2 Barrage (virtue of being a Bomb weapon) is pretty good.

If you could do it every turn, sure.

When it's just once per game, not so much. And, even less so when it's basically the only selling point of an overpriced, under-armoured flyer.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

And as for your earlier comment about the loss of the Baron not being a good reason to quit, you underestimate him. He was one of those characters that opened up entirely different play styles, namely Hellions as troops. Someone who bought several units of 5 Hellions (they were actually very good objective grabbers, very cheap and surprisingly shooty) to act as there troops now doesn't have a troops choice. Someone like me who used him to allow the Beast Pack to be viable have wasted hours converting the models up. It's just a bad precedent, and you shouldn't belittle the loss GW dealt to some people.

Agreed.

Incidentally, it was really disappointing that the 7th edition book basically halved our troop options by making removing the rules that allowed Wracks and Hellions to be taken as troops. They could at least have made Wracks troops in the Coven supplement.

Even worse though was that these units were left with the capabilities of troops (e.g. 1-per-5 special weapons on Wracks), even though they were stuck in Elite/FA slots.

Why Talos (and obviously we would take them in Corpsethief Claw because why wouldnt you) are good by Jancoran:

Tough 7. Literally can't be hurt by STR 3 weapons nor troops in close combat. There are a pretty goodly number of them. In addition, most things, EVEN STR 5 things, need 6's to wound. All this is fairly awesome but what it means is this: Killing them is no picnic, and when you finally get a wound through, they get 3+ saves. But If they fail it, Feel No Pain. At which point does that sound anything but incredibly sturdy? Answer: it ALWAYS sounds incredible sturdy. You are correct.

So what can they do besides survive (which they do admirably)? Well they can carry 5 Twin Linked Haywire Blasters in the unit. Why is that "so good"? Well that's easy. Ask a Scourge. Its the most reliable Hull Point generating gun in the game. No biggee. Just the MOST reliable anti-tank gun in the game. Twin linked. You're free to tell me what sucks about that, but I will be ignoring it because anything you have to say will be incorrect. There is no better Hull point generator, as a gun, that is twin linked save for D weapons, Especially at 24 inch range!!!

What else? Well it happens to be a Monstrous Creature, causes Fear and just for kicks, it's STR 7 and can carry weapons that can Instant Death (D3 wounds to Gargantuans) all day, plus they can take armourbane weapons just because: Land Raiders. In short, there is literally no target you can't send them after. Stomp is a thing and very dangerous to Talos, but then: thats true of every unit so that's no reflection on them.

What other reasons might we have? Well wouldn't you know it we do Hammer of Wrath hits at STR 7 (awesome) in addition to the 5 we do on the charge! I know right? That's as many or more than most units, period. Effectively 6 attacks on the charge.

Now here's the best part: they can scout up or outflank! Absolutely terrific. Your opponent might want to deploy away from those Talos but the Scout gives them the ability to move upfield (if going first) to take away some of that enemy deployment shenanigan so by spreading them out as far apart as possible,you can take away a lot of room for them to hide. Going second? Outflank. Even better.

To Review: They crush everything in melee. They smash armor in the shooting phase. They have deployment shenanigans, are extremely tough and of course let's not forget that they give you FREE VICTORY POINTS every time they smash something in melee!!! I used five in the batrep below just from that. Once they start doing their thing, you can win games just with them so the points expenditure, which some will cite as a problem is nothing compared to the Free VP's it gets you. You can literally buy Victory Points before the game. You tell me how THAT sucks?

And since everyone likes a little batrep, I'll provide one to show the Talos having fun. Just happen to have one that another guy did. He does a ton of Batreps. This is one of a hundred probably.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/12/haemonculus-coven-vs-astra-militarum.html

So since you wanted to know, there ya' go.

Your preaching the to choice dude, we KNOW the Corpse Thief Squadron is powerful. In this thread, at every opportunity, everyone has stated the Haemonculus coven introduces a level of competitiveness. This is not in dispute.

The problem stems from the fact the rest of the army from Codex: Dark Eldar are sub par. Codex: Dark Eldar is not Haemonculus covens, they have vastly different styles of play. Not only in play style, but also in aesthetics and thematic flavor. So us complaining about Dark Eldar being sub par, and being told Haemonculus coven is quite good, while nice for some people is not helpful for the majority.

As for your review, once again, Corpse thief Squadron will do very well in a casual environment due to its area denial tactics and VP shenanigans, it fails in a competitive environment. A Knight Titian strikes at the same time as the Talosi, he will likely kill 2 Talos, then the Talosi will Smash him, then he will explode with a Strength D explosion and either kill or severely damage the remaining Talosi. Grav Weapons on the usual platforms can out range and out run the CTC hence they will be picked off. A Wraith Knight with Sword and Shield strikes first, kills 2/3 Talosi, and while he will probably die in return, he only costs 295pts.

So in essence, not a bad formation, but worthless on a competitive level due to how much of the army it takes up allowing for Rock<Paper><Scissors games.>

 Jancoran wrote:
Why Talos (and obviously we would take them in Corpsethief Claw because why wouldnt you)

The fact that that's the only way you'd take them is an issue in and of itself. If they're only good in large numbers of free special rules and abilities, that's a pretty good indicator that they have a problem otherwise.

You're not arguing the strenghts of the Talos, you're arguing the strengths of the Corpsethief Claw. There's a difference, these are not the same thing.

Tough 7. Literally can't be hurt by STR 3 weapons nor troops in close combat. There are a pretty goodly number of them. In addition, most things, EVEN STR 5 things, need 6's to wound All this is fairly awesome but what it means is this: Killing them is no picnic, and when you finally get a wound through, they get 3+ saves. But If they fail it, Feel No Pain. At which point does that sound anything but incredibly sturdy? Answer: it ALWAYS sounds incredible sturdy. You are correct.

So what can they do besides survive (which they do admirably)? Well they can carry 5 Twin Linked Haywire Blasters in the unit. Why is that "so good"? Well that's easy. Ask a Scourge. Its the most reliable Hull Point generating gun in the game. No biggee. Just the MOST reliable anti-tank gun in the game. Twin linked. You're free to tell me what sucks about that, but I will be ignoring it because anything you have to say will be incorrect. There is no better Hull point generator, as a gun, that is twin linked save for D weapons, Especially at 24 inch range!!!

What else? Well it happens to be a Monstrous Creature, causes Fear and just for kicks, it's STR 7 and can carry weapons that can Instant Death (D3 wounds to Gargantuans) all day, plus they can take armourbane weapons just because: Land Raiders. In short, there is literally no target you can't send them after. Stomp is a thing and very dangerous to Talos, but then: thats true of every unit so that's no reflection on them.

What other reasons might we have? Well wouldn't you know it we do Hammer of Wrath hits at STR 7 (awesome) in addition to the 5 we do on the charge! I know right? That's as many or more than most units, period. Effectively 6 attacks on the charge.

Now here's the best part: they can scout up or outflank! Absolutely terrific. Your opponent might want to deploy away from those Talos but the Scout gives them the ability to move upfield (if going first) to take away some of that enemy deployment shenanigan so by spreading them out as far apart as possible,you can take away a lot of room for them to hide. Going second? Outflank. Even better.

To Review: They crush everything in melee. They smash armor in the shooting phase. They have deployment shenanigans, are extremely tough and of course let's not forget that they give you FREE VICTORY POINTS every time they smash something in melee!!! I cored five i nthe batrep below just from that. Once they start doing their thing, you can win games just with them so the points expenditure, wich some will cite as a problem is nothing vompared to the Free VP's it gets you. You can literally buy Victory Points before the game. You tell me how THAT sucks?

And since everyone likes a little batrep, I'll provide one to show the Talos having fun. Just happen to have one that another guy did. He does a ton of Batreps. This is one of a hundred probably.

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/12/haemonculus-coven-vs-astra-militarum.html

So ince you wanted to know, there ya' go.

Again, pretty much all of this is about how great the Corpsethief claw is, not the Talos itself. Likewise, half of these points are equally applicable to just about any MC, most MC's have incredibly resiliency or outright immunity to S5 and lower attacks, particularly S3. Even when ostensibly vulnerable to them, such attacks are never great sources of wound generation against them, typically requiring dozens of such attacks to average a single wound. It's heavy weapons and upgrade CC weapons that are typically how these units are destroyed, and the Talos' resiliency against such weapons is pretty average for a CC oriented MC.

Likewise, comparing a Batrep comparing a Corepsthief claw to IG, typically considered one of the least competitive armies in 7E, an assertion backed up by large numbers of event results like ITC and such, isn't saying much about the fundamental value of the Talos.



My personal view on the Talos is that, in a vacuum, it's not bad compared directly to other MC's of similar capability, but outside of a Corpsethief claw, trying to work it into a traditional CAD Dark Eldar army, they don't really fit with the rest of the army, they don't really function well in conjunction with anything else and are an easy element for an opponent to isolate and destroy in detail, and they take up FoC slots needed for other critical roles.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Your preaching the to choice dude, we KNOW the Corpse Thief Squadron is powerful. In this thread, at every opportunity, everyone has stated the Haemonculus coven introduces a level of competitiveness. This is not in dispute.

So in essence, not a bad formation, but worthless on a competitive level due to how much of the army it takes up allowing for Rock<Paper><Scissors games.>

Wait... It matters how "much of the army" a Deathstar takes up? Since..when? Thats the definition of a Deathstar: kinda expensive and hard to kill but deadly t its job. You think the other (depending on games size) 1200-1350 points isn't enough to build around a death star? How do any other codex's get their 400-600 point deathstars out there if thats even a legit concern? This particular Deathstar is slightly more expensive than some, I'll definitely grant you that, but it pops out VP's like a candy machine.

So I absolutely can and do compete with the Corpsethief Claw! Abso-freaking-lutely.

But let me re-focus here: If you don't like Talos, no sweat. Continue not liking them. I was giving my reasons FOR liking them. So that Vipoid can't say i didn't give any reasons. I guess in the end, the scoreboard will tell you whether Talos are good or not. Pay attetion to that, and not me, if you prefer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:


Again, pretty much all of this is about how great the Corpsethief claw is,

Actually...most of it wasn't about the Corpsethief claw. In point of fact, since you want to be fair minded (I assume).

The Corpsethief Claw exists, so you can ignore it if you want to. But then that's just you wanting to. Those who cannot find a use for three of them for all the same reasons (minus scouting and VP candy machine), Well... My reasons are stated for liking what they do.

Of course it matters how much of the army a Deathstar takes up. How could you possibly argue otherwise?

If you sink 600pts into a deathstar that is slow, can only target one unit (that must be a vehicle if you have Haywire) with range and takes 2/3 turns to make combat, then what happens in a game when you meet one of those obvious counters i mentioned? You lose.

A Beast star would've put you down 350pts max, it was cheap and fast and durable, a good deathstar, A Seerstar was fast, versatile and durable, a good deathstar. Same with the Screamerstar. The Centstar was also quite cheap and extremely destructive, with good movement with GoI.

See the key factors here? Speed and Price. A Slow Deathstar is nothing but cumbersome, especially when the much vaunted durability you rely upon is negated by the metas top contenders.

**EDIT** As to why other armies can fit expensive deathstars are thus, they are either ranged or fast. CTC is neither. 600pts into something that won't be effective until turn 2/3 and can be countered be a 365pt Knight, a unit of Wraithguard or Gravcenturions which will *always* get the first strike due to the massive difference in speed puts the CTC on a massive back foot.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Of course it matters how much of the army a Deathstar takes up. How could you possibly argue otherwise?

If you sink 600pts into a deathstar that is slow, can only target one unit (that must be a vehicle if you have Haywire) with range and takes 2/3 turns to make combat, then what happens in a game when you meet one of those obvious counters i mentioned? You lose.

A Beast star would've put you down 350pts max, it was cheap and fast and durable, a good deathstar, A Seerstar was fast, versatile and durable, a good deathstar. Same with the Screamerstar. The Centstar was also quite cheap and extremely destructive, with good movement with GoI.

See the key factors here? Speed and Price. A Slow Deathstar is nothing but cumbersome, especially when the much vaunted durability you rely upon is negated by the metas top contenders.

**EDIT** As to why other armies can fit expensive deathstars are thus, they are either ranged or fast. CTC is neither. 600pts into something that won't be effective until turn 2/3 and can be countered be a 365pt Knight, a unit of Wraithguard or Gravcenturions which will *always* get the first strike due to the massive difference in speed puts the CTC on a massive back foot.

Well if you care that much about what it costs, so much so that you would be willing to give up what it OFFERS in order not to pay that cost.... Okay?

In the meantime I'll pop out VP's like a candy machine, and when one of those "incredibly obvious" counters shows up (usually a deathstar of its own that usually costs 400-600 points) I'll make sure to account for it so its not getting the chance to stop me until it doesn't matter anymore (called Generalship in some quarters, strategy in others, but who really cares what we call it?). I mean you're not actually wrong that there are counters. But if all I did was play things that don't have counters. Well, there would be no army. So... Maybe that's not the best way to evaluate things.

Maybe the best way to evaluate them is to look at what they do for me and see if I can wrap enough of an army together around it to make it work and do all the things an army needs to be able to do? Maybe a plan or something? And if you can (and I can) then one can stop worrying about its cost and simply profit a lot more often than not.

Or I can listen when you tell me that there's a counter somewhere in my future universe of opponents and I should give up all the good it will do me to avoid such a fate, and have no army at all on the field. I have yet to see a unit that doesn't have another unit it doesn't like to see. in 6E, the most "powerful unit" was arguably the proliferation of Wave Serpents. Didn't like Eyes of Night. Wraith Knights don't like Stormsurges. Stormsurges don't like anything that resembles close combat oriented units, 3+ armored Close combat oriented units dont like seeing a wall of Gravguns and Gravguns dont like seeing Necron Swarms while Necron swarms dont like seeing WraithGuard and Wraithguard don't like Banshees, but banshees dont like seeing Retributors... And retributors dont like seeing a whole crap ton of things who in turn do not like seeing Exorcist tanks... and the circle continues. At some point you gotta stop using "There's a counter somewhere in the universe" as a reason not to profit.

I mean right? there always will be. Always.

Oh goody, do tell of your skills that will "account" for the opponents counters. I have heard of this thing called generalship and planning, perhaps I am doing it wrong. You see, I planned to beat that Eldar opponent, but his jetbikes melted my venom, his wave serpent jinked my haywire blasters and his knight shrugged off my dark lances. I planned to multicharge with the CTC but the opponent was faster then the Talosi, so he fed me a transport and some warp spiders before killing off the final talos. Shame I can't plan as well as you.

Sarcasm aside, I don't understand where these VPs like candy are coming from. The opponent knows what the CTC does, it's not a subtle formation. If you run, they move 9"/10" a turn, 6" if they shoot. You simply cannot march across the entire board and hope to come out on top, unless you argue your plan includes LOS blocking terrain to all 5 Talosi, that is just a fantasy. As for not taking them because you *might* encounter a counter, you aren't acknowledging the meta. 60% of the armies you will see at a tournament are likely to be a Post Necrons codex, or will conclude allies of such. Probably 80% of the top 10 will be as well. If the major flaw of a list is Grav, knights of all descriptions, mechanicum and fliers, and 80% of the lists you face will contain them, then it is not a silly assumption to assume you will face them.

To cover your point as to "build you army to cover your weaknesses". This was our initial point! You try build an army that can "account" for a double a wraith cannon wraith knight in conjunction with scatter bikes. Try build an army list that can account for a Stormserge, or its missile toting suits that pop our gunships far faster then we do theirs.

When an army is so far in the back foot it requires th opponent to make mistakes for an equal shot at winning, we know the book needs an update.

Jancoran

I play in a casual meta which means most armies can do alright but are you going to look at me with a straight face and tell me if were going to go balls to the wall competative that Dark eldar can stand on their own against Eldar, Necrons, Spacemarines, or any of the other 7.5 codex releases.

Stop pretending that any codex can beat another if we really push things to the limit. I admit that player skill and dice come into it but Dark eldar are in sad shape. Half their codex is meh, another third needs a supplement to be good via formations. Looking at reports from who is winning the major tournaments it's not dark eldar.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Jancoran

I play in a casual meta which means most armies can do alright but are you going to look at me with a straight face and tell me if were going to go balls to the wall competative that Dark eldar can stand on their own against Eldar, Necrons, Spacemarines, or any of the other 7.5 codex releases.

Stop pretending that any codex can beat another if we really push things to the limit. I admit that player skill and dice come into it but Dark eldar are in sad shape. Half their codex is meh, another third needs a supplement to be good via formations. Looking at reports from who is winning the major tournaments it's not dark eldar.

I agree. Dark Eldar are not a great competitive army. They can do alright in more casual environments, but at competitive tournements they're only useful as allies.

I'd say a third of their codex is just bad, a third is okay or has some use, and another third needs supplements to make them good enough to play. The only standout units form a competitive standpoint are Venoms, and those aren't nearly as impressive with the amount of superheavies running around these days.

there bikes are pretty good, and point for point warriors arn't bad. They suffer from two main problems. No mega formations and no super heavies.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

I don't understand where these VPs like candy are coming from.
You simply cannot march across the entire board and hope to come out on top,

.

I might not have to, remember? And the VP's come from the Corpsethiefclaw.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


Shame I can't plan as well as you.

When an army is so far in the back foot it requires th opponent to make mistakes for an equal shot at winning, we know the book needs an update.

This really isn't a tactics thread so I'll leave it alone. I hope your games improve.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
there bikes are pretty good, and point for point warriors arn't bad. They suffer from two main problems. No mega formations and no super heavies.

The Bikes are silly good. Those deserve a gold star.

Something else I'd like to add - DE are really lacking in synergy and support abilities.

We have no psykers, nor even any real defence against them. But, whereas Tau have markerlights, Buffmanders and such, we have... nothing.

The closest thing we seem to get is modifiers to the PfP table. Unfortunately, the PfP table just isn't good - and certainly not useful enough to be the focus of what little support we have. For a start, it takes us 3 turns just to get to 5+ FNP. This on T3 models. Put simply, it's not remotely enough, and not what we need. 5+ FNP might, at best, take the edge off some basic weapons. What we need though is more bite.

However, any shooting units - i.e. most of our army - are out of luck because there isn't a single shooting buff in the PfP table. The only offensive buffs are Furious Charge and Rage. It might as well be +1 to hedge-trimming for all the use it is. And, incidentally, if a game can literally end before my units get their last buff then I expect something more impressive than Rage. But, even on our melee units PfP is pretty awful because most of them need Furious Charge just to be even remotely worth a damn, but you only get it on turn 4.

And why is it that Power from Pain has no relevance whatsoever to the pain I actually cause?
- Okay, it's turn 2, my units are all castled up and haven't killed so much as a single grot. What's my reward? 6+ FNP.
- Okay, it's turn 2 and my devastating first volley has crippled half the enemy army. What's my reward? 6+ FNP.


Here's a question for you guys: Let's say that DE had all their PfP bonuses from turn 1. So, 5+ FNP, FC, Fearless and Rage. Would they be overpowered?

 vipoid wrote:
Something else I'd like to add - DE are really lacking in synergy and support abilities.

We have no psykers, nor even any real defence against them. But, whereas Tau have markerlights, Buffmanders and such, we have... nothing.

The closest thing we seem to get is modifiers to the PfP table. Unfortunately, the PfP table just isn't good - and certainly not useful enough to be the focus of what little support we have. For a start, it takes us 3 turns just to get to 5+ FNP. This on T3 models. Put simply, it's not remotely enough, and not what we need. 5+ FNP might, at best, take the edge off some basic weapons. What we need though is more bite.

However, any shooting units - i.e. most of our army - are out of luck because there isn't a single shooting buff in the PfP table. The only offensive buffs are Furious Charge and Rage. It might as well be +1 to hedge-trimming for all the use it is. And, incidentally, if a game can literally end before my units get their last buff then I expect something more impressive than Rage. But, even on our melee units PfP is pretty awful because most of them need Furious Charge just to be even remotely worth a damn, but you only get it on turn 4.

And why is it that Power from Pain has no relevance whatsoever to the pain I actually cause?
- Okay, it's turn 2, my units are all castled up and haven't killed so much as a single grot. What's my reward? 6+ FNP.
- Okay, it's turn 2 and my devastating first volley has crippled half the enemy army. What's my reward? 6+ FNP.


Here's a question for you guys: Let's say that DE had all their PfP bonuses from turn 1. So, 5+ FNP, FC, Fearless and Rage. Would they be overpowered?

I don't think it would be over powered, maybe even make them usable.

Though it feels like GW designed this codex to be a dedicated taxi service for their craftworld brethren. But that require some future planning that I doubt GW actually has ability to do.

vipoid I would like WychCult/Covens/Kabal specific PfP. Kinda like Chapter Tactics in a way.

Just...something. Anything.

 Frozocrone wrote:
vipoid I would like WychCult/Covens/Kabal specific PfP. Kinda like Chapter Tactics in a way.

That would be nice.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just...something. Anything.

Any interest in the upcoming Corsair release? From what I've seen so far, it looks like Dark Eldar: Good Version.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

I don't understand where these VPs like candy are coming from.
You simply cannot march across the entire board and hope to come out on top,

.

I might not have to, remember? And the VP's come from the Corpsethiefclaw.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:


Shame I can't plan as well as you.

When an army is so far in the back foot it requires th opponent to make mistakes for an equal shot at winning, we know the book needs an update.

This really isn't a tactics thread so I'll leave it alone. I hope your games improve.

You have either failed to understand, or have deliberately misinterpreted my entire post. Of course i know that the CTC can get VP's from non-vehicle kills, that was obvious inferred by when i said ''It's not a subtle formation''. My point stands that the CTC cannot walk across the board and expect to wrack up these VP's unless the opponent is literally setting up all his units to be multi-charged at the same time. As for ''I might not have to, remember?'' i assume you are inferring to Scout and Outflank? Scout is a 6'' move, it doesn't solve the problems the CTC has, only slightly alleviates them. And if you intend to put 600pts of your army into reserve when Dark Eldar have no access to reserve manipulation apart from the Aegis which doesn't gel with the army at all, then that is exceptionally bad planning. You could be spending 4 turns 600pts down, and only have 1/2 turns of assault in which to wrack up these VP's.

Maybe i should avoid satire and sarcasm, it seems to go right over some peoples heads.

It's a flyer: I ignore it. It's certainly no worse than being shot by 40 scatter bikes.

 vipoid wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
vipoid I would like WychCult/Covens/Kabal specific PfP. Kinda like Chapter Tactics in a way.

That would be nice.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Just...something. Anything.

Any interest in the upcoming Corsair release? From what I've seen so far, it looks like Dark Eldar: Good Version.

Corsair depresses me. I don't feel like splashing out £50 for what should be DE.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Corsair depresses me. I don't feel like splashing out £50 for what should be DE.

The trouble is, it feels like we're stuck between a rock and a hard place on that front. On the one hand, yeah, it's a silly price to have to pay to get functional rules. On the other, I don't see GW fixing DE any time soon. Even if you trust them to make the next codex good (and I certainly don't), I can't imagine we'll get a codex before 8th edition.

Incidentally, I certainly hope no frustrated DE players get hold of these Corsair rules through torrents or such. That would be just awful.

I hope that too. I'll read the rules online though before committing.

I've already got IA:4 and I'm waiting for IA:8 which got skipped. Maybe Badab Wars too. So 11 isn't on my Radar at the minute.

Haven't read the whole Talos andVoidraven debates (since inadvertently starting them) but I'll at least give my reasons as to why.

Voidravens are very overcosted for something so flimsy. One use only weapons are very hit and miss and not worth spending your points on. For similar points in similar roles you can get a Crimson Hunter Exarch or a Vendetta both of which are way better.

Talos are bad because they only move 6" limiting their ability to get into melee and for a MC to be an effective shooting platform it really needs two guns (not counting crappy liquifiers). In these days of D weapons and stomps it's hard to keep one alive let alone kill something. I think Corpsethief Claws are just too expensive especially once you kit them out. You can make way more destructive deathstars for 650 points. Maybe with Invis, but the more you get Eldar involved then the less you end up playing DE at all!

Since I sold my DE even before going on a 10 year hiatus, after coming back i've been drooling over the models. Not the rules though, and after reading lots of threads like this, it makes it really tough to want to invest in em. So, I plan to try and fit them and a corsairs list together as much as I can to over lap as Kabal/ corsairs and hope a dex update makes me want to expand the DE portion. Coven is interesing and was an idea I liked way back when, but I never did anything with, but they may be the one thing DE would bring to the new corsairs list worth adding on their own. I really wish Hellions were decent, always loved them.