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How would our earth today fare against the forces of 40k? If the world where united against this common enemy what would it take to force us to submission our destroy us. Would we crumble under the forces of a small force of space marines or would we be able to fight of a whole chapter? Would it just take some guardsmen or a full blown waaaaagh. While having control from orbit would be a huge advantage for anyone attacking us. I would like the focus to be more on the fighting on the ground.


Note: this was originally posted as an article, but it really isn't one, so the discussion thread has been moved. --yakface

On the ground, not a chance in hell against anything. Where modern day military would excel is an air war. F-22's would swat every flying brick the Imperium has. Assuming that is we aren't factoring in the space ships which then...yeah we still don't have a chance. On the individual scale a modern US Marine would be stated like BS 5 WS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD 9 which is elite but the base M-16 to me would be 36" Assault 3, Str 2 Ap- With bigger guns getting better stats.

The Abrams is probably equivalent to a Predator with an autocannon and fast rule.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
On the ground, not a chance in hell against anything. Where modern day military would excel is an air war. F-22's would swat every flying brick the Imperium has. Assuming that is we aren't factoring in the space ships which then...yeah we still don't have a chance. On the individual scale a modern US Marine would be stated like BS 5 WS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD 9 which is elite but the base M-16 to me would be 36" Assault 3, Str 2 Ap- With bigger guns getting better stats.

The Abrams is probably equivalent to a Predator with an autocannon and fast rule.

40k plating is made of pure handwavium, their vehicles are way more durable than ours.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
F-22's would swat every flying brick the Imperium has

Lightning fighters aren't exactly flying bricks

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
On the individual scale a modern US Marine would be stated like BS 5 WS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD 9 which is elite but the base M-16 to me would be 36" Assault 3, Str 2 Ap- With bigger guns getting better stats.

Ha! Not a chance. You reckon current US Marines are better shots than Space Marines that have spent hundreds of years constantly fighting?

They'd be about the same as Tempestus Scions at best.

to be fair, the standard trooper would probably be vet. stat lines (But so would our elite, better trained units), since we actually train our dudes more then "here's your 3 months, go fight!"

It depends which black library book you've been reading.

The Imperial Guard exists at three 'tiers' - conscripts (BS2), guardsmen (bs3) and veterans (bs4).

BS4 is - given the examples - special forces and designated marksman level - a cut above the norm even with professional training. The Cadians get a rule called sharpshooters where they reroll '1's to hit - making them effectively BS 3-and-a-half and are always described as well-trained professionals.

That's probably the mark for a proper earth military. Remember that even if a guard unit got relatively little training, they've generally all got real-world, live-fire experience far in excess of your average soldier on earth.

Autoguns pretty much are assault rifles, and are comparable to lasguns. The only real edge a lasgun has in this situation is logistics (60 round, rechargeable clip) but then we have a balancing advantage that we don't have to ship ammo across space.

As noted, control of high orbitals is the single most important factor and one we have no real answer to.

As current 40k Space Marines are structured to small pitched battles and raids, I don't believe a single chapter could conquer Earth as we are now. But if we're to face a full planetary invasion from the Astra Militum, then I believe that the IoM would win eventually, through sheer attrition.
Would Earth unify in a common cause to fight back? I'm not sure, as modern armed forces and the world in general rely so much on satellite communications, the first casualty of the war would be the ability to talk to each other, as our satellites would most certainly be destroyed first, rendering our units incapable of receiving orders from higher echelons.

Any civilization that could get here from anywhere in space in military capacity would have humanity on its knees before supper. A single chapter of space marines could control the planet in a day or less.

Modern man is, technologically and logistically, incredibly disadvantaged against any space-faring race. If aliens showed up right now, we stand absolutely zero chance unless they show up with only drop pods and we nuke the ground they land on the second they get there.

They could have technology that seems completely magical to us. They could design their attack to cripple us perfectly, because we're like ants trapped in a glass case to them, so easy to observe and predict. We can't do anything. We can't run away, we can't stand and fight, and I'd rather die than be a slave.

It's entirely possible that they could kill every one of us and suffer no casualties themselves due to technological superiority. There's no reason to suspect their material science couldn't produce armour that is impenetrable by ballistic weapons.

If aliens want us dead, we probably don't have a say in the matter. I'm all for the human race, and would fight until death for my freedom and genetic bloodline, but I know there would be no hope. None.

Look at how much we have advanced in the last 150 years, and what would happen if our modern forces fought the forces of 1865. Pure annihilation. The space civilization in turn could very very easily be 2000 years, hell even 20 000 years more advanced. There's no reason to believe we could defend ourselves any more than if our entire civilization was newborn infants.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
On the ground, not a chance in hell against anything. Where modern day military would excel is an air war. F-22's would swat every flying brick the Imperium has. Assuming that is we aren't factoring in the space ships which then...yeah we still don't have a chance. On the individual scale a modern US Marine would be stated like BS 5 WS 4 S 3 T 3 W 1 I 4 A 1 LD 9 which is elite but the base M-16 to me would be 36" Assault 3, Str 2 Ap- With bigger guns getting better stats.

The Abrams is probably equivalent to a Predator with an autocannon and fast rule.

Aside from the silliness of the whole thing, GW have stated that Stormtroopers/Scions are pretty much the equivalent of the SAS/SEALS/DEVGRU/SFOD-D. The best of the best of normal men. Making up overpowered stats off the top of your head for the USMC doesn't really help, either.

The technology of the IOM and most other races would probably annihilate us but do you think we would fare better against the less advanced races such as tyranids, deamons or orks

No.

Because modern militaries lack the logistic endurance to fight the numbers involved when facing tyranids.

The 40k battlefield doesn't allow for accurate representations of the described tyranid invasion. You're talking millions or billions of warrior-organisms being dropped onto earth's surface - meaning that earth militaries - which have 'front-line' troopers in the tens or hundreds of thousands - will be facing odds of hundreds or more to one.

See what happens when a few dozen soldiers face a thousand-strong rioting mob for what happens there. If a fully-equipped, NATO standard first line infantryman fires every bullet he carries, hits and kills with every shot, that's still not enough.

The best historical example is stuff like the Zulu wars. Rifles versus spears is a massacre but if the odds are that bad, and the opponent is that smart, you can find yourself losing anyway.

The entire planet could be over run by a grot infestation.

If one city of any appreciable size were incinerated by orbital laser, Earth would immediately surrender. We have nothing to defend against that kind of firepower, and no way to answer it.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
F-22's would swat every flying brick the Imperium has.

Nope. We still lose that terribly.

Aerodynamics don't matter as much when you have the capability to operate in the upper atmosphere where air resistance is far less, you have gravity repulsors and other things to keep things aloft despite aerodynamics, and your "fighters" are larger than most wet Navy ships. Imperial Fighters would be more like flying Destroyers and Cruisers in our atmosphere. Sure, our fighters might be more maneuverable, but that doesn't matter if your weapons are useless and the enemy just shoots you out of the sky. Seriously, the Fury Starfighter is 60-70 meters long, thick armor, and energy shields.

The Thunderbolt is only slightly slower than the F-22 at a dead race, but it has almost twice the maximum altitude. And as WW2 showed being able to operate at a higher altitude was practically an "I win" button.

Not to mention all the targeting systems and automated systems will be far more advanced in 40k. The Imperium may be declining technologically, but thats only relative to mankind during the Dark Age of Technology. They're still mindbogglingly more advanced than we are today.

Problem is all that targeting and automated systems ARE antiquated by our modern day standards. Unless of course you have either a lobotomized servitor and/or techpriest or MULTIPLE techpriests on board to take time praying to the machine just to get it to select a single target. While our outdated F-14s could track, target and fire on 8 targets in one go.

The biggest problem with the Imperium is yeah they have very high end tech, but it's super restricted by the techpriests. In the Imperium you'd have to have a choir of servitors and get a techpriests blessing to flush a toilet.

Kevlar vs a high velocity AP grenade launcher bolter? Take your pick.

A company of SM could probably take out the planet.

Topic has been done to death before.

40k is so random and inaccurate, bouncing wildly from one author to the next, and even defying known laws of physics for the sake 'of cool' that there's no point in any sort of argument - and fanboys will just reiterate their same piece of overpowered tripe no matter how hard you try.

The one thing we can agree upon is if they have an unlimited orbital strike capability it's pretty much game over.

Anonymous wrote:


How would our earth today fare against the forces of 40k? If the world where united against this common enemy what would it take to force us to submission our destroy us. Would we crumble under the forces of a small force of space marines or would we be able to fight of a whole chapter? Would it just take some guardsmen or a full blown waaaaagh. While having control from orbit would be a huge advantage for anyone attacking us. I would like the focus to be more on the fighting on the ground.


Note: this was originally posted as an article, but it really isn't one, so the discussion thread has been moved. --yakface

Comparing 40k to the real world is rather awkward, as 40k really isn't so much a Scifi universe as a Fantasy universe with a Scifi skin slapped on it.

Modern battle tanks can move at highway speeds and hit a target (that's also moving at highway speeds) from 2KM away and hit it 95% of the time, with frontal armor that provides protection exceeding that of nearly a meter and a half of hardened steel against a shaped-charge projectile. A squad of infantry from something like a Stryker battalion would be ludicrously well armed next to a basic Guardsmen squad, with something like 2 GL's, 2 Heavy Stubbers, a Sniper Rifle, and a Krak Missile per 10 guys, that basically operate in the same way SM "Combat Squads" do and an IFV to boot. Modern artillery can put a shell within a couple of meters of a target from 20-+ miles away in under a couple of minutes. Modern aircraft have greater speed capabilities than most 40k aircraft, far greater sensors, and weapons systems that can engage beyond the horizon. Command & control capabilities of modern armies absolutely shame those of anything that exists in the 40k universe.

To put it bluntly, 40k works because "space magic" and numbers. Modern armies have capabilities seen nowhere in any 40k lore. The command & control capabilities of modern armies make the most elaborate Eldar forces look disorganized and Space Marine chapters look like amateurs. Real world targeting and ordnance delivery is beyond what anything in 40k has ever aspired to.

Quite simply, 40k is Swords & Sworcerors with a Scifi visual and some WW2 era repersentations of things like armored and airborne combat, while even BFG represented starship combat as an almost direct parallel to napoleonic "age of sail" tactics. Modern first class militaries would do exceedingly well against a 40k universe force if you equialized scales.

As long as you equalized the numbers and avoided the obvious "i-win buttons" of orbital bombardment, the real world would win rather handily. A Thunderbolt for example would never see the F-22 because the F-22 has the ability to detect and engage the Thunderbolt from a hundred miles away or more, while the Thunderbolt does not have the same capability (at least not that has ever been described/portrayed/claimed/etc) and the F-22 can interact with AWACs aircraft to gain even greater detection and engagement coordination.. More to the point, the F-22 can actually fly and the Thunderbolt is not a functional airframe, much the same way a Leman Russ can't physically work because the gun breach extends basically most of the way through the turret and the entry hatch at the top would be unsuable

Yeah pretty much that ^

Against IG our special forces would more than likely succeed due to local knowledge. And depending on terrain we will have access to some truly scary special forces.
Take Arctic warfare for instance.
There's reasons why Cold Response is held in the Cold Northern European winters.

Every nation has their strengths to use.
I for one would not like to try to take Austria for instance.
Their artillery is amongst the best available due to their own targeting systems.. They have effectively increased the range and accuracy of their cannons.
The Danes have Siriuspatruljen. Arctic specialists bar none.
Two man teams with dog sleds doing two month patrols in the ice pack.
Or my nations Special forces. Mountainous terrain specialists.
Forsvarets Spesial Kommando laser designated a lot of high value targets in Afghanistan. Our Helo pilots were the choice of many US special forces teams for insertion. Our fighter pilots flew many sorties in Libya and Syria.

Also worth mentioning is the Gurkhas.
During the Falklandswar a squad of Gurkhas annihilated an S.A.S. Squad in less than a minute. A horrible case of friendly fire.

Then we come to Legion Le'tranger. French Foreign Legion.
We are talking such bad mofo's that they invented a game in Kosovo while serving as UN peacekeepers called Hunt the Sniper. They would draw straws to decide who would be sniper bait and get shot at. Not to mention their doctors. According to sources they deal daily with diseases that doesn't even have a name yet.

And then comes Russia.
We all know their military. Probably the closest we get to IG in real life..

Not to mention all the civvies with firearms.
I've grown up in a hunting family. I shot proper firearms while my friends fired cap guns.

So in short. We are not that screwed..


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also during Cold Response a team of Norwegian medics destroyed a seal team. Again. We would have little problems dealing with static formations and tactics..

The standard space marine weapon (bolter) holds a .75 caliber (meaning the projectile is 3/4" in diameter) explosive round with solid rocket propellant so that the projectile can be much larger... and that's the smallest weapon in the Space Marine armory. Current earth wouldn't stand a chance .

SG

This isn't fair, because Earth forces are based off real physics, not GW physics. So I say Earth wins by default by not being impossible.

Martel732 wrote:
This isn't fair, because Earth forces are based off real physics, not GW physics. So I say Earth wins by default by not being impossible.

Yup. As soon as a Stormraven entered the real world it would crash into the ground. Ork weapons would fall apart, the Imperial Guard would get all their armor bogged down, Titans would fall over and crash and Tyranids would devolve into mindless rabble.

Well this whole discussion is based on imaginary (as is most of this entire forum) to real world, so adding that we win by default because it's fake, really is pointless banter to this conversation.

Now to weigh in on the subject matter, I really don't see how we would any sort of realistic resistance to the IoM, they conquer and fight against entire universes of nightmare creatures, highly sophisticated civilizations, and beings we couldn't comprehend.

All of our focal points of resistance would get subject to orbital bombardment, before getting hit with marine shock forces, which would more than likely break all form of resistance off the bat, we aren't used to their type of warfare it would be devastating.

If by some miracle we don't completely crumble under the shock of a Space Marine assault (and the following heavy armor deployment) and they think us capable of fighting in any form of prolonged combat, they would bring the force of the Imperial Guard to bear, and land an insurmountable force of tanks and highly trained men, it doesn't matter how many talented individuals we have, they could kill 100 men each and still have 0 hope against them. The IoM is almost exhaustless from universe spanning combat, what would a single underdeveloped planet offer them in a form of challenge?

 ServiceGames wrote:
The standard space marine weapon (bolter) holds a .75 caliber (meaning the projectile is 3/4" in diameter) explosive round with solid rocket propellant so that the projectile can be much larger... and that's the smallest weapon in the Space Marine armory. Current earth wouldn't stand a chance .

SG

Luckily, our weaponry is much longer ranged and our soldiers can be much quieter than a hulking beast of a man with a medium-ranged, clunky sub-machine rifle with explosive munitions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally, "Imperium" doesn't mean "Space Marines". No way in hell would Space Marines be deployed to take over Earth, or at least not initially. Putting Marines against Earth makes very little sense.

Fictional world vs fictional world is one thing, but 40K has no constraints of real physics, so comparing to actual, existing weapons is not useful at all. Although I'll say that the real world has 40K beat to death on strategy, tactics, and weapon philosophy. Weapons with targeting systems are good. 40K basically doesn't have any.

40K thinking:

"Sir! The only weapon we've got that makes a dent in the Eldar is the grav cannon!"

"Doesn't matter! The Emprah commands us to use these other useless weapons on 10,000 year old designs!"

Real thinking:

"Sir! The only weapon we've got that makes a dent in the Eldar is the grav cannon!"

"Have the techies put them on EVERYTHING!"

Anything that can travel in interstellar space would think of us as a worm. We could do absolutely nothing.

Seriously, thinking mankind could defend ourselves any better than a few cattle could is absurd fanboyism. There would be nothing we could do.

It's startling that anyone thinks anything different... mankind is not special. We can't even unify towards a common goal. We are absolutely primitive compared to anything with interstellar travel. We focus on profit more than anything else, and have no long term goals as a cohesive civilization. We're a bloody mess of a species. People talk about our logistics being great, what? We are confined to earth! Our logistics would look like a high school sports scheduling team compared to the stuff they deal with and are fully capable of.

Arrogance and ignorance of our true place in the universe won't help us win the fight either. We need to pull our heads out of our rears, develop sustainable systems and begin to actually move towards something meaningful so we CAN defend ourselves against a threat.

Saw a documentary on what would happen if aliens invaded earth.

Let's just say humanity did not do well and even though they won, the conditions were favourable (as in it was a small invasion skirmish not a whole army) and we got lucky using primitive weaponry that supposedly flew under their radar, because we had exhausted all our other options, partly because the aliens had been efficient in taking out the military, communications, medical facilities and finally good production. Even with just a skirmish force we had our butts handed on a silver plate.

Modern humanity stands no chance against a full invasion force.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Saw a documentary on what would happen if aliens invaded earth.

Let's just say humanity did not do well and even though they won, the conditions were favourable (as in it was a small invasion skirmish not a whole army) and we got lucky using primitive weaponry that supposedly flew under their radar, because we had exhausted all our other options, partly because the aliens had been efficient in taking out the military, communications, medical facilities and finally good production. Even with just a skirmish force we had our butts handed on a silver plate.

Modern humanity stands no chance against a full invasion force.

Out of curiosity what documentary?

Basic logic would tell us that any alien invasion would be destined to win. The technology level, intelligence, resources, and energy required for interstellar travel of any "invasion" force would be SO high. Any alien invasion force capable of REACHING us would inevitably have the ability to conquer us. Saying that aliens would be capable of reaching us but not be able to conquer us would be like saying you have an race car that can reach 250 mph, but it is not capable of parking.

Any failure of the aliens to conquer us relies on the stupidity of the aliens, which again, flies in the face of the logic that they have the vast intelligence required to reach us. You see this type of scenario in fiction quite frequently. Common examples would be War of the Worlds, where the aliens conquer us only to be defeated by their own poor immune systems, or Signs, where the aliens are defeated by water (I still groan at that one... water is only 75% of the Earth's surface... and it's EVERYWHERE in the cosmos so it isn't as if aliens wouldn't KNOW what WATER was). Or Independence Day where they didn't update the virus definitions on the Mother Ship.

So when you take into account the aliens have the resources to GET to us, and they aren't going to fail as a result of poor intelligence, because again, they have the intelligence to GET to us... you're left with very few options for humans to survive.

The only plausible scenario I can think of is the "dying race" scenario. This basically puts an artificial limit on the resources of the aliens. We imagine that there is an alien planet ~100 light years from Earth. The aliens' world is dying due to circumstances beyond their control (sun going supernova, sun sending out super flares, gamma radiation from a neighbor star that went nova, etc). The aliens are capable of interplanetary travel, but they only have the resources for a trip that lasts but so long. This makes Earth the only option they have. The aliens spend ALL their technological resources trying to GET to us, and have very little leftover for any sort of military action. Perhaps they have quite a few resources for military action, but their resources are very finite.

This is the sort of scenario we could possibly survive. We manage to fight off the aliens, and the aliens have no further resources to draw upon. We win by attrition, even in the face of superior technology and intelligence.