Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does the fan base believe concepts like good and Evil exist in the 40k universe on the civilization level?

I ask the question is because I don’t, and I wanted to know how the rest of the community sees it.

There have been a lot of topics lately like “is chaos really evil?” or “is the Imperium really good?” and I have a major issue with these types of questions because they don’t really make sense to me. I believe good and evil morality exists in individuals on the 40k universe but it isn’t a label that can be applied to an entire civilization.
I assert that morality is not applicable to any of the factions in 40k. This is for two reasons.

1. Our current definitions of morality, the term I am using to represent the good vs evil axis, doesn’t apply on the scale of a civilization in the face of civilizations that span the entirety of a planet, let alone a galaxy. Ethics, the values held by a society as a whole, do apply but not in the same way we perceive them today, because the ethics and values of a 40k civilization include only survival. The chief concern of these civilizations is to continue to exist and to increase their power and influence. This is the same motivation current nations and political entities have in our reality, but they just aren’t as fanatical or zealous as the factions of 40k. The closest analog for the 40k universe that we have in a real historical setting would be Europe in the late 19th century. The old Empires were stagnating and nationalism had basically made interdependence nonexistent. The global economies were only tentatively linked and countries were just as likely to go to war as to not over any issue that happens between them. We don’t attach moral tags to these nations or civilizations. Britain is not considered Evil by most people because if its empire, even though the British did commit many atrocities in the name of their empire. Germany who wasn’t really a nation until a few decades before WWI, is blamed for the war, but its actions were no different than any other nation or empire of the time. The USA, although not part of Europe, is no different. The atrocities committed against Native Americans in the name of westward expansion were horrific. The treatment of slaves and the slave trade, both dealing with African slaves and slaves of the nation subjugated by European empires, in general was probably the single largest atrocity in the history of modern western civilization and a majority of western countries, especially those with American, Asian, and African colonies, participated in it. However we don’t paint these civilizations and societies as wholly “evil”. This is because it was the accepted form of civilization at the time. I’m not saying that makes it moral by our standards but I am saying that our modern definitions of Morality may not even be applicable, because these were universal paths taken by these civilizations. Every civilization did things that would in a vacuum be interpreted as “evil” in order to build and maintain their nation and defend it from threats.

2. Because the 40k universe is basically a projection of these situation onto a galactic scale, the same application of labels should be used. The imperium is a xenophobic, insular, religious totalitarian theocracy, mainly because those types of societies are really good at surviving and not changing, especially if they are large. No faction or civilization in 40k actively uses anything close to egalitarianism or democracy, which appear to be our modern western definitions of “good”. Even the Tau are under the autocratic rule of the Ethereals. There is no elected or representative government in any faction from the top down because in a setting where resources are scarce and every other faction is either violently trying to exterminate your race or presents a very real and present danger to their race due to the competition for resources, these forms of government and society are not feasible. Democracies and egalitarian forms of society work when there are, for the most part, enough resources for everyone to survive in relative peace. This is categorically not the case in the 40k Universe. So if we are to use conventional measures, like egalitarianism, to assess morality of civilizations in this setting then we would have to say that all of them are “Evil”. If all societies are objectively “evil” by these standards, does evil really exist in this context? I don’t think it does, and therefore I don’t think it is a valid descriptor or label.

I think this leaves us only two options when looking at the moral outlook of these factions. First we could assess them on an order vs chaos spectrum. I think this would be adequate because if the “good” value of these societies is survival, then order will probably be better at that than a chaotic faction, simply because order is more efficient in its use of resources and it would be better at sustaining itself. The second measure would be relative to the perspective the player/reader is taking. If the goals of a society contradict the goals and values (order vs chaos) of another society, they are “evil” and present a clear threat to the reader/player’s way of life. If they don’t they are “good”. The problem is, a majority of the fluff is written from the perspective of humanity, so all other factions are antagonistic to them, because they are competing for the same resources, hold different cultural values and their success means the failure of humanity. This is true of every one of the racial factions be it elder, tau, necron, ork, or chaos. Because of the setting every faction is necessarily antagonistic towards all others and therefore are all “evil” from an opposing factions perspective. I think it could be possible for this to change or to be proven wrong by an exceptional civilization from the fluff, but it is applicable to all playable and major factions in the 40k universe.

Good and Evil are concepts of moral relativity, they do not exist as absolutes.

I agree with that. My reasons for posing the question is to explore that concept in the context of the setting. I'm bothered by the idea of questions that boil the factions down into those descriptors, and I felt that a discussion of this nature was warranted due to the number of questions lately about the goodness or evilness of a group or faction.

objectively we can say that Abbadon could be described as evil, and perhaps Saint Celestine or Garro could be described as Good because of our classical tropes, but I don't think these concepts are applicable to the civilizations and factions. Some people do, and I thought that was worth discussing.

While some traits that we consider good are present in 40k, such as duty, loyalty and bravery, the 40k universe is simply so fundamentally different that trying to apply 21st century morality is impossible. This is a world were reading the wrong book or putting stones in the wrong order might summon demons that will eat the world. The imperium is a terrible place because it wants to be, but because it's the only way to react to that.

Evil certainly exists in 40K. We know Chaos to be evil.

Remember, for evil to exist, there only needs to be a reference point for which "Good" is measured. There don't actually have to be an abundance of "good" people to counterbalance. The Imperium or the Tau having shades of immorality doesn't slide the scale in the favor of genocidal maniacs to make them less evil.

Certainly Abaddon is evil. He has no moral relativism to fall back on. Likewise with pretty much every single Chaos character that's ever been depicted. Sure, some of them have a host of excuses they like to convince themselves with, but that doesn't change the basic fact of their deeds.

I understand what youre saying, and to an extent i think youre right.
However, when people say that the Imperium is evil, or similar, what they mean is that the bureaucracy, and the government is evil. They dont specifically mean that every person in the Imperium is immoral or a bad person, but rather that the government performs evil actions.
That said, morality is not absolute. What the Imperium does is for a reason; though much of it may seem evil, you have to weight the good with the bad.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Evil certainly exists in 40K. We know Chaos to be evil.

Remember, for evil to exist, there only needs to be a reference point for which "Good" is measured. There don't actually have to be an abundance of "good" people to counterbalance. The Imperium or the Tau having shades of immorality doesn't slide the scale in the favor of genocidal maniacs to make them less evil.

Certainly Abaddon is evil. He has no moral relativism to fall back on. Likewise with pretty much every single Chaos character that's ever been depicted. Sure, some of them have a host of excuses they like to convince themselves with, but that doesn't change the basic fact of their deeds.

Chaos is not evil as covered in another thread, the mortal followers of chaos may be evil, but even that's a stretch, its certain that some of them are what we would call evil, but not all of them, they have been raised in their own alternative religion that the imperium considers evil, but is that chaos farmer evil? or the other multitude of chaos followers that just work in various logistical jobs, its not all eating babies.

I think in 40k there are people that could be considered pure evil or pure good, but they are very very rare, I would consider Fulgrim evil, even after freeing himself of the deamon, he still consciously commits acts of atrocity, and doesn't care.

Abbadon is again not evil, in talon of horus and the HH books, he comes across as a lot more that the 2d character he has been depicted as before, and his motivations are almost understandable.

Chaos is not evil as covered in another thread

I fully believe people will have made this argument, and I support their fundamental right to be wrong, as I support yours.

There is nothing "understandable" about why Abaddon does things. That's that little bit about moral relativism and excuses I was talking about.

Either way, understanding his motivations doesn't preclude them from evil, if the end result of his actions is inexcusable evil. Nothing in Talon of Horus provided any kind of moral or categorical imperative for him.

 Jollydevil wrote:
I understand what youre saying, and to an extent i think youre right.
However, when people say that the Imperium is evil, or similar, what they mean is that the bureaucracy, and the government is evil. They dont specifically mean that every person in the Imperium is immoral or a bad person, but rather that the government performs evil actions.
That said, morality is not absolute. What the Imperium does is for a reason; though much of it may seem evil, you have to weight the good with the bad.

The average citizen of the Imperium is a xeno-hating, mutant-killing, witch-burning religious fundamentalist given ready access to weapons that believes in the virtues of Strength in Ignorance, the Purity of the Human Form, and the Manifest Destiny of Mankind to rule the stars alone, which precludes intelligent Xenos from existing.

From a human perspective, however, all of these things are good. Good and Evil are, again, not absolutes. There is no action that one can point at and say "that's a universally good thing", because actions have consequences, and the consequences of supposedly "good" actions can have terrible effects down the line.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Chaos is not evil as covered in another thread

I fully believe people will have made this argument, and I support their fundamental right to be wrong, as I support yours.

There is nothing "understandable" about why Abaddon does things. That's that little bit about moral relativism and excuses I was talking about.

Either way, understanding his motivations doesn't preclude them from evil, if the end result of his actions is inexcusable evil. Nothing in Talon of Horus provided any kind of moral or categorical imperative for him.

I disagree, abbadon showed honour, brotherhood and the kind of behavior you would see from any loyalist marine, I'm interested in seeing how he becomes the bad guy the chaos Codex describes him as, because by the end of talon of horus, he unequivocally was not evil, he wanted revenge and to unite the traitor legions under one banner, his later actions could be viewed as evil, but not I'm talon.

Besides the fact he's ultimately a puppet for chaos, he wants revenge for what. His traitor leader dying despite his father doing everything he could to redeem him. His bitter rage over rejecting the very man and society that made him an immortal superhuman. The vast majority of chaos fallen are selfish, shortsighted and ultimately slaves to a God that doesn't care about them.

abbadon showed honour, brotherhood and the kind of behavior you would see from any loyalist marine

"Honor" and "Good" are not synonymous terms. A hero is defined by his actions, not by his morality.

 Psienesis wrote:

abbadon showed honour, brotherhood and the kind of behavior you would see from any loyalist marine

"Honor" and "Good" are not synonymous terms. A hero is defined by his actions, not by his morality.

I never said "good" I said behavior you would expect to see from a loyalist marine, whom I also do not consider "good".

Voted no.

I think Nids could also be described as good in their own mind. Or at least the one/s that are concious. Isit it's/ their fault they evolved up the food chain so well?

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Besides the fact he's ultimately a puppet for chaos, he wants revenge for what. His traitor leader dying despite his father doing everything he could to redeem him. His bitter rage over rejecting the very man and society that made him an immortal superhuman. The vast majority of chaos fallen are selfish, shortsighted and ultimately slaves to a God that doesn't care about them.

This right here is, ultimately, my only issue with people saying that Chaos (or, at the very least, it's followers) isn't evil.

 dusara217 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Besides the fact he's ultimately a puppet for chaos, he wants revenge for what. His traitor leader dying despite his father doing everything he could to redeem him. His bitter rage over rejecting the very man and society that made him an immortal superhuman. The vast majority of chaos fallen are selfish, shortsighted and ultimately slaves to a God that doesn't care about them.

This right here is, ultimately, my only issue with people saying that Chaos (or, at the very least, it's followers) isn't evil.

He doesnt want revenge for his primarch being evil, he wants revenge for his cause being destroyed. If the Sons of Horus knew that what they were doing was evil, dont you think they wouldnt have done it?
Morality is not an absolute, as said before. The reasons Abbadon turned traitor in the first place and now leads Chaos (personal ambitions aside) is because he thought what he was doing was actually moral.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I understand what youre saying, and to an extent i think youre right.
However, when people say that the Imperium is evil, or similar, what they mean is that the bureaucracy, and the government is evil. They dont specifically mean that every person in the Imperium is immoral or a bad person, but rather that the government performs evil actions.
That said, morality is not absolute. What the Imperium does is for a reason; though much of it may seem evil, you have to weight the good with the bad.

The average citizen of the Imperium is a xeno-hating, mutant-killing, witch-burning religious fundamentalist given ready access to weapons that believes in the virtues of Strength in Ignorance, the Purity of the Human Form, and the Manifest Destiny of Mankind to rule the stars alone, which precludes intelligent Xenos from existing.

From a human perspective, however, all of these things are good. Good and Evil are, again, not absolutes. There is no action that one can point at and say "that's a universally good thing", because actions have consequences, and the consequences of supposedly "good" actions can have terrible effects down the line.

I disagree somewhat. While they are exposed to regular 1984-esque imagery every day, I think most citizens are just keeping their heads down trying to get by. I just watched the movie Elysium again earlier today, and I think Matt Damon's character at the start would be a good example of a common worker, especially in a Hive.

Imperial citizens in the fluff are not (usually) portrayed as automatic crazy religious zealots, other than by mob rule that can happen just as easily today. Dan Abnett is good at portraying all types of people seen through a grimdark filter.

I agree with above, and the ghosts books showed us that the followers of Chaos actually have every day citizens, people who work water filtration, farmers etc,

Someone has to feed the billions of Chaos followers and it's not all eating the dead and each other, someone has to make the arms and armour, and it's not all slaves, someone born on a chaos planet and raised in the region of that world won't know anything else and would likely worship the gods and carry on with their normal lives.

Imperial propaganda says there all baby eaters though, so it must be true.

 Formosa wrote:
I agree with above, and the ghosts books showed us that the followers of Chaos actually have every day citizens, people who work water filtration, farmers etc,

Someone has to feed the billions of Chaos followers and it's not all eating the dead and each other, someone has to make the arms and armour, and it's not all slaves, someone born on a chaos planet and raised in the region of that world won't know anything else and would likely worship the gods and carry on with their normal lives.

Imperial propaganda says there all baby eaters though, so it must be true.

Yes, this is true, but it really depends on the Chaos World in question. For instance, on Medrengard, this would ondoubtedly be the case. However, on a world like Anathrax, Chaos followers would be nothing of the sort, and would likely be the equivalent of tribals from a Feral World.

Evil, most certainly. Chaos is evil. The Necrons are evil. (The sentient ones, anyway.) Chaos Marines are evil. The Carcharodons Astra are absolutely evil.

Most things are grades of evil. Somewhere in between the extremes. Being British as sci fi gets, 40k embraces wholeheartedly a world where NO ONE is truly 'good.' Certainly no faction is.

If there is it is not real, there is no good and evil in real life thats that. Depends where your born and what you perceive as right.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Evil, most certainly. Chaos is evil. The Necrons are evil. (The sentient ones, anyway.) Chaos Marines are evil. The Carcharodons Astra are absolutely evil.

Most things are grades of evil. Somewhere in between the extremes. Being British as sci fi gets, 40k embraces wholeheartedly a world where NO ONE is truly 'good.' Certainly no faction is.

read the thread, other threads and the fluff, chaos isn't evil, chaos is the warp, the warp is a reflection of the real world, therefore any evil committed in the real world is reflected into the warp and thus "chaos" has no choice in being good or evil, it is simply what it is, the followers of chaos are not all evil either, but I wont go into that again.

Necrons are not evil, the vast majority are not anything, the ones with "free will" are either mad (and thus not in control of their actions) or fighting to save their race and restore it, this doesn't make them evil, the elder and imperium and orks are evil for not letting them yeah? Those infected with the destroyer and flayer virus, are also not in command of their full faculties, and so are not evil.

out of your list, arguably on the carcharadons are "evil" since they actively choose to inflict atrocities on their own kind above and beyond what is nessesary, when a necron wipes out a planet full of humans, its not commiting an evil act, its killing rats, we see it as evil, they do not, just as we don't see wiping out rats as evil.

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I understand what youre saying, and to an extent i think youre right.
However, when people say that the Imperium is evil, or similar, what they mean is that the bureaucracy, and the government is evil. They dont specifically mean that every person in the Imperium is immoral or a bad person, but rather that the government performs evil actions.
That said, morality is not absolute. What the Imperium does is for a reason; though much of it may seem evil, you have to weight the good with the bad.

The average citizen of the Imperium is a xeno-hating, mutant-killing, witch-burning religious fundamentalist given ready access to weapons that believes in the virtues of Strength in Ignorance, the Purity of the Human Form, and the Manifest Destiny of Mankind to rule the stars alone, which precludes intelligent Xenos from existing.

From a human perspective, however, all of these things are good. Good and Evil are, again, not absolutes. There is no action that one can point at and say "that's a universally good thing", because actions have consequences, and the consequences of supposedly "good" actions can have terrible effects down the line.

I disagree somewhat. While they are exposed to regular 1984-esque imagery every day, I think most citizens are just keeping their heads down trying to get by. I just watched the movie Elysium again earlier today, and I think Matt Damon's character at the start would be a good example of a common worker, especially in a Hive.

Imperial citizens in the fluff are not (usually) portrayed as automatic crazy religious zealots, other than by mob rule that can happen just as easily today. Dan Abnett is good at portraying all types of people seen through a grimdark filter.

That doesn't make them "good". It makes them complicit. Notice how, in the GG novels:



Fear the psyker, kill the mutant, burn the heretic.

 Formosa wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Evil, most certainly. Chaos is evil. The Necrons are evil. (The sentient ones, anyway.) Chaos Marines are evil. The Carcharodons Astra are absolutely evil.

Most things are grades of evil. Somewhere in between the extremes. Being British as sci fi gets, 40k embraces wholeheartedly a world where NO ONE is truly 'good.' Certainly no faction is.

read the thread, other threads and the fluff, chaos isn't evil, chaos is the warp, the warp is a reflection of the real world, therefore any evil committed in the real world is reflected into the warp and thus "chaos" has no choice in being good or evil, it is simply what it is, the followers of chaos are not all evil either, but I wont go into that again.

Necrons are not evil, the vast majority are not anything, the ones with "free will" are either mad (and thus not in control of their actions) or fighting to save their race and restore it, this doesn't make them evil, the elder and imperium and orks are evil for not letting them yeah? Those infected with the destroyer and flayer virus, are also not in command of their full faculties, and so are not evil.

out of your list, arguably on the carcharadons are "evil" since they actively choose to inflict atrocities on their own kind above and beyond what is nessesary, when a necron wipes out a planet full of humans, its not commiting an evil act, its killing rats, we see it as evil, they do not, just as we don't see wiping out rats as evil.

If Chaos is a reflection of the real world, then that means that it also gets all of the good alongside the bad. It gets the honor and righteousness alongside the sin and avarice. Therefore, it has cast aside the good virtues in favor of the bad; making it evil. However, this is not the thread for this discussion, if you wish to continue it, then go back to the "is Chaos evil" thread.

 dusara217 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Evil, most certainly. Chaos is evil. The Necrons are evil. (The sentient ones, anyway.) Chaos Marines are evil. The Carcharodons Astra are absolutely evil.

Most things are grades of evil. Somewhere in between the extremes. Being British as sci fi gets, 40k embraces wholeheartedly a world where NO ONE is truly 'good.' Certainly no faction is.

read the thread, other threads and the fluff, chaos isn't evil, chaos is the warp, the warp is a reflection of the real world, therefore any evil committed in the real world is reflected into the warp and thus "chaos" has no choice in being good or evil, it is simply what it is, the followers of chaos are not all evil either, but I wont go into that again.

Necrons are not evil, the vast majority are not anything, the ones with "free will" are either mad (and thus not in control of their actions) or fighting to save their race and restore it, this doesn't make them evil, the elder and imperium and orks are evil for not letting them yeah? Those infected with the destroyer and flayer virus, are also not in command of their full faculties, and so are not evil.

out of your list, arguably on the carcharadons are "evil" since they actively choose to inflict atrocities on their own kind above and beyond what is nessesary, when a necron wipes out a planet full of humans, its not commiting an evil act, its killing rats, we see it as evil, they do not, just as we don't see wiping out rats as evil.

If Chaos is a reflection of the real world, then that means that it also gets all of the good alongside the bad. It gets the honor and righteousness alongside the sin and avarice. Therefore, it has cast aside the good virtues in favor of the bad; making it evil. However, this is not the thread for this discussion, if you wish to continue it, then go back to the "is Chaos evil, thread.

They haven't cast aside those emotions, they still exist but are not as strong as the dominant emotions, nor as wide spread, so they are tiny and insignificant in the overwhelming power of the negative ones, and it's permanent to this thread also, as he stated chaos is evil in a thread asking if good and evil exist in 40k, hence the explanation.

also chaos followers show loyalty, honour and brotherhood all the time, it's far more common than the 2d chaos Codex would have you believe. I'm not saying chaos (mortals) don't commit acts of evil, they absolutely do, look at honsou, about as evil as they come.

 Psienesis wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jollydevil wrote:
I understand what youre saying, and to an extent i think youre right.
However, when people say that the Imperium is evil, or similar, what they mean is that the bureaucracy, and the government is evil. They dont specifically mean that every person in the Imperium is immoral or a bad person, but rather that the government performs evil actions.
That said, morality is not absolute. What the Imperium does is for a reason; though much of it may seem evil, you have to weight the good with the bad.

The average citizen of the Imperium is a xeno-hating, mutant-killing, witch-burning religious fundamentalist given ready access to weapons that believes in the virtues of Strength in Ignorance, the Purity of the Human Form, and the Manifest Destiny of Mankind to rule the stars alone, which precludes intelligent Xenos from existing.

From a human perspective, however, all of these things are good. Good and Evil are, again, not absolutes. There is no action that one can point at and say "that's a universally good thing", because actions have consequences, and the consequences of supposedly "good" actions can have terrible effects down the line.

I disagree somewhat. While they are exposed to regular 1984-esque imagery every day, I think most citizens are just keeping their heads down trying to get by. I just watched the movie Elysium again earlier today, and I think Matt Damon's character at the start would be a good example of a common worker, especially in a Hive.

Imperial citizens in the fluff are not (usually) portrayed as automatic crazy religious zealots, other than by mob rule that can happen just as easily today. Dan Abnett is good at portraying all types of people seen through a grimdark filter.

That doesn't make them "good". It makes them complicit. Notice how, in the GG novels:

Spoiler:

Soric was terrified of revealing that he was expressing psychic abilities? Yeah... because the Imperium does not treat psykers well. It was a gamble for him to reveal his abilities to Luud.

Fear the psyker, kill the mutant, burn the heretic.

Yeah, but at the same time multiple Ghosts have a huge problem with what what happens because of that particular situation, support a brain-damaged comrade so he can stay useful, and one raises kids that aren't theirs that they rescued from a warzone.

Good and evil is a weird thing, and it's very rare that something or someone is just one way or the other. Even Chaos has "good" guys such as the Alpha Legion and evil guys like the Nightlords, with the other factions all falling somewhere in between.

In the Grim Darkness of the far future, there is only plot stagnation, and humans stay human.

That is to say, neither good nor evil. Even the Chaos Gods exhibit a gray morality.

I don't believe that the Imperium as a whole is good or evil - it just does what it has to in order to keep their species alive.

Having said that, there are some individuals who I would consider "good", because even in the grim darkness of the far future there can still be heroes.

A hero is not someone who always does good, it is someone who always does what is necessary.