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 Torga_DW wrote:
As did i, but you seem to have left that bit out....

You did? Because you do not seem to have talked about neither money, nor faith…

 Torga_DW wrote:
Back before they redid guardians presumably.

You sure about that?

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well you did mention it in response to my point, so i'd kind of hope you'd have an idea.

Do you have statistics on tweenagers?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
As did i, but you seem to have left that bit out....

You did? Because you do not seem to have talked about neither money, nor faith…

No, i talked about the miniatures themselves. Scroll back a page.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Back before they redid guardians presumably.

You sure about that?

Yes.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Torga_DW wrote:
Well you did mention it in response to my point, so i'd kind of hope you'd have an idea.

Do you have statistics on tweenagers?

Now you're just getting petty? I didn't need statistics to see twilight and harry potter going ballistic in sales with the tween market. And you came back with: game of thrones. I think we're done here. I concede my argument, you win. Clearly.

 Torga_DW wrote:
No, i talked about the miniatures themselves. Scroll back a page.

Money translate on the miniatures into bling.

 Torga_DW wrote:
I didn't need statistics to see twilight and harry potter going ballistic in sales with the tween market.

Are you saying that Twilight and Blood Angels are aiming for the same market ? I honestly believe even though the market for Blood Angels is not exactly the same as the market for Games of Throne, it still have WAY more overlap than with the market for Twilight.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

How to sculpt women in 28mm:
- Step 1: sculpt the armor. This is the same process as sculpting the armor for a man, except if you are putting your model on catsuits or skin-tight armor, in which case… well, that is hardly armor and why are they going to fight without armor?
- Step 2: if the head is uncovered, sculpt a woman's head.

So much.... wrong with this..... ggaaaah....


Because of shape, you can get away with gak sculpting and posing men that simply will not work if you want it to look like it was made to fit a woman. MWHistorian's earlier post trying to disprove my point actually underlined it. The sculptor used the robes to conceal a lot of problem areas, like shoulders while using a pose that emphasized the most obvious female features at 28mm. A better example of someone doing it right would have been Victoria Lambs female IG.

Further, saying they're difficult to sculpt is not saying they're impossible to sculpt. I'll say (IMHO) that most of GWs female offerings have been garbage due to lack of talent in their art department these days. They've been doing a lot of contracting out for the newer art that appears in codecies, etc.

Cause gw doesn't like them. no love for sob or inquisition. they don't seem to want to remake what will sell less then their space marines or else we would have had plastic sisters long ago and a box of acolytes.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
So much.... wrong with this..... ggaaaah....

Worked for Shadowsun, did it not?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Because of shape, you can get away with gak sculpting and posing men that simply will not work if you want it to look like it was made to fit a woman.

In an armor as bulky as space marine armor, let alone terminator armor, noone can tell if there is a man or a woman. Because the small anatomical differences at obscured by the armor.

What may be difficult is to make it obvious that a figure is female at 28mm. But that is not because sculpting women is harder, that is because people assume by default that a model is male…

Again, many model companies sculpt female models in 28mm scale just fine (Malifaux, Infinity, RH, Ral Partha, HeroForge, and, yes, even Games Workshop... there are female character models in other armies, ffs!)

... so it's not an issue with the sculpt. If GW no longer has a modeler with the necessary talent to create the cast, then that's a problem in GW's art team. Not a problem with the sculpt itself. This is a non-argument with no evidence to support it, and plenty of evidence in GW's own product line, both current and historical, to refute it.

Is it a cost of production issue? We have no way of knowing, and since GW doesn't do market research, they have no way of knowing, either. They, literally, by their own words, have No Fething Clue how well any product they produce is going to sell. Because they don't do market research. They have only the sales numbers from previous releases to go by, and that applies to every product line they have. When they release a new Space Marine product, whether its a model or a book, they have only the previous version of it by which to guess how it will do. Since they don't do market research, they don't know whether that item has more or fewer users than it did the last time, whether it's bought for use in a game or for sitting on shelves (the former means more sales, the latter means fewer) or... anything. They know next to nothing about their own products' performance in the market outside of sales volumes.

So why don't they do a Sisters update? Because, by and large, GW is grossly incompetent. Every indicator of the wargaming market indicates this is the case. In a market that has been exploding over the last several years, with a dozen companies coming in and posting big numbers and indicating growing sales and expanding user-bases, GW (and, basically, GW alone) is the only one falling, failing to respond to changes in the market, failing to respond to competition in the market, failing to respond to the demands of their customers.

Why?

Because they are incompetent.

Me? I'm done with GW. They could release a Sisters Codex and an all-plastic model line tomorrow, that makes the Sisters a top-tier army with so many awesome unit-choices that it makes the Tau and Eldar lines look like monopose monolisting in comparison, and it wouldn't matter to me. I am done with GW, done with their hush-hush secret release schedule, their schizophrenic attitude towards their own products and their HUA design philosophy.

GW is not a company deserving of the faith of its fans, because that faith will, in all likelihood, not be rewarded.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Because of shape, you can get away with gak sculpting and posing men that simply will not work if you want it to look like it was made to fit a woman.

In an armor as bulky as space marine armor, let alone terminator armor, noone can tell if there is a man or a woman. Because the small anatomical differences at obscured by the armor.

Wrong. The points of articulation have to be placed differently, and no amount of bulk will change that. The armour's shoulder joints need to be aligned with the wearer's shoulder joints or else you won't be able to move them without dislocating your own arms, and a woman's shoulder joints are physically closer together than a man's are.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Because of shape, you can get away with gak sculpting and posing men that simply will not work if you want it to look like it was made to fit a woman.

In an armor as bulky as space marine armor, let alone terminator armor, noone can tell if there is a man or a woman. Because the small anatomical differences at obscured by the armor.

Wrong. The points of articulation have to be placed differently, and no amount of bulk will change that. The armour's shoulder joints need to be aligned with the wearer's shoulder joints or else you won't be able to move them without dislocating your own arms, and a woman's shoulder joints are physically closer together than a man's are.

Never stopped them from sculpting Space Marines they way they do. As sculpted, the Marine can't lift his arms above his shoulders, or remove his helmet. Anatomical correctness is not in their art design.

 AlexHolker wrote:
The armour's shoulder joints need to be aligned with the wearer's shoulder joints or else you won't be able to move them without dislocating your own arms, and a woman's shoulder joints are physically closer together than a man's are.

So this is why in real life women can't wear armor designed for men, I guess .

Could you make a female version where the should joint are at the right place so I can see the difference? I do not care for it being perfect, I just want to see roughly how you are going to change them. Just a quick work on Paint/Gimp/Photoshop.


[edit]I gave it a try.
Male:

Female:

Is that what you had in mind?
[edit2]. I had misread. It is about the shoulder being closer from each other, not lower. So, is the actual female version is more like this?

[edit3]Also, I know I put a silly face and everything, but this is an actual question, not a rhetorical one. Given the way Space Marine armor and Terminator armor is constructed, how would you change it to accommodate a female wearer?

Oh Lord, the amount of aggression in this thread is rapidly increasing. No doubt this statement will be taken personally and commented on.


Anyway, on topic - I don't see why the sisters don't have non-gender specific power armour and female heads. This has nothing to do with sexuality - just pragmatism. Real armour used by combat forces lack bust. I don't see why a suit of powered armour / armour would look different. Such as the Dreamforge ones linked here: http://www.crittohit.com/sci-fi/dreamforge-games-eisenkern-female-stormtroopers-heavy-support-apc and here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/plastic-sisters-wait.html

Alternatively, if you want to sex things up - back the very nice Raging Heroes sculpts as they're trying to get a very grimdark Sisters army going: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/tgg2-light-and-darkness

The models can be sculpted, others manage it.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Oh Lord, the amount of aggression in this thread is rapidly increasing. No doubt this statement will be taken personally and commented on.


Anyway, on topic - I don't see why the sisters don't have non-gender specific power armour and female heads. This has nothing to do with sexuality - just pragmatism. Real armour used by combat forces lack bust. I don't see why a suit of powered armour / armour would look different. Such as the Dreamforge ones linked here: http://www.crittohit.com/sci-fi/dreamforge-games-eisenkern-female-stormtroopers-heavy-support-apc and here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/plastic-sisters-wait.html

Alternatively, if you want to sex things up - back the very nice Raging Heroes sculpts as they're trying to get a very grimdark Sisters army going: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/tgg2-light-and-darkness

The models can be sculpted, others manage it.

Because the in-universe explanation contained within the Decree Passive, which states that the Ecclesiarchy (following Vandire) is not permitted to maintain "men under arms". In-universe, the Decree is written in High Gothic, which is apparently very gender-specific in its grammar. So, the Ecclesiarchy violates the spirit of the law, but not the letter, by maintaining an elite army of female soldiers. Their armor is designed to accentuate the fact that they are not men.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Oh Lord, the amount of aggression in this thread is rapidly increasing. No doubt this statement will be taken personally and commented on.


Anyway, on topic - I don't see why the sisters don't have non-gender specific power armour and female heads. This has nothing to do with sexuality - just pragmatism. Real armour used by combat forces lack bust. I don't see why a suit of powered armour / armour would look different. Such as the Dreamforge ones linked here: http://www.crittohit.com/sci-fi/dreamforge-games-eisenkern-female-stormtroopers-heavy-support-apc and here: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/02/plastic-sisters-wait.html

Alternatively, if you want to sex things up - back the very nice Raging Heroes sculpts as they're trying to get a very grimdark Sisters army going: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/loudnraging/tgg2-light-and-darkness

The models can be sculpted, others manage it.

Because the in-universe explanation contained within the Decree Passive, which states that the Ecclesiarchy (following Vandire) is not permitted to maintain "men under arms". In-universe, the Decree is written in High Gothic, which is apparently very gender-specific in its grammar. So, the Ecclesiarchy violates the spirit of the law, but not the letter, by maintaining an elite army of female soldiers. Their armor is designed to accentuate the fact that they are not men.

Are you adding stuff - could you direct quote as all I can find are quotes stating no men - but nothing to do with showing off pewter boobs.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Decree_Passive
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

Lexicanum: Goge Vandire wrote:One notable change was the Decree Passive of the High Lords, which declared that the Ecclesiarchy could have no men under arms. Thor complied with this, and all military functions of the Ecclesiarchy were disbanded, except for one - the Daughters of the Emperor remained, but were renamed the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas (aka Sisters of Battle). As "women under arms", they did not violate the decree; while the spirit of the decree may not have been followed, Thor believed that the Ecclesiarchy should have some military force of their own, so that it would not be completely reliant upon other Imperial military forces for its own defence.

If you mean the look of the armor?

They're Gothic Space Nuns. Of course their armor is going to be a black corset with sharp ridges and eighty-five tons of solid gold bling. This is 40k. How things actually work IRL has absolutely no place when discussing the look and feel of the setting, which is why tanks that would be out-classed by something from WW2 are considered the masters of the battlefield and elite soldiers act like medieval knights in bright colors and heraldry.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Also, I know I put a silly face and everything, but this is an actual question, not a rhetorical one. Given the way Space Marine armor and Terminator armor is constructed, how would you change it to accommodate a female wearer?

Indomitus Pattern and Gorgon Pattern Terminators don't really lend themselves to it. Cataphractii and Tartaros could be made to fit women by altering the hip/chest ratio and slightly reducing the shoulder width and overall height.

 Psienesis wrote:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Decree_Passive
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas

Lexicanum: Goge Vandire wrote:One notable change was the Decree Passive of the High Lords, which declared that the Ecclesiarchy could have no men under arms. Thor complied with this, and all military functions of the Ecclesiarchy were disbanded, except for one - the Daughters of the Emperor remained, but were renamed the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas (aka Sisters of Battle). As "women under arms", they did not violate the decree; while the spirit of the decree may not have been followed, Thor believed that the Ecclesiarchy should have some military force of their own, so that it would not be completely reliant upon other Imperial military forces for its own defence.

If you mean the look of the armor?

They're Gothic Space Nuns. Of course their armor is going to be a black corset with sharp ridges and eighty-five tons of solid gold bling. This is 40k. How things actually work IRL has absolutely no place when discussing the look and feel of the setting, which is why tanks that would be out-classed by something from WW2 are considered the masters of the battlefield and elite soldiers act like medieval knights in bright colors and heraldry.

My point is that it's your expectation that they have sexy armour. Actual Gothic Nuns look more like this:


Nuns aren't about sex, they're about a lack of it. Hence Big Armour that's non-gender specific in the future

Previous GW representation was in slinky armour but that doesn't mean they have to stick with it. Why is it a case of 'of course they will have black corsets and sharp ridges' if anything they will have loads of black robes over proper armour rather than an Anne Summers selection.

 Wulfmar wrote:
Anyway, on topic - I don't see why the sisters don't have non-gender specific power armour and female heads.

Yes indeed, that is what I was implying when I wrote about sculpting female miniatures in 28mm not being harder than male ones.
As long as they keep the very baroque aesthetic look of the current armor rather than just use the clean, hi-tech looking version from marines, I would be happy with the result!
Because as I said earlier, their schtick is money and faith (hence baroque*…), not being women. And if you still doubt that, compare their rhino with the marine version. It adds huge Sororitas emblem on the doors. Well, I guess Marines do not have those because every chapter has a different emblem. But it also adds some extra stuff on top of the rhino, which includes a stained glass cupola, a bunch of alcoves looking like lancet arch (okay, that is Gothic architecture, but it evokes the power of a very wealthy and powerful church just as well, and 40k is not art history lessons…), a big pole holding a banner, with some box containing a skull in it, cherubim blowing up into trumpets that are actually loud speakers, and tons of extra bling depicting saints that can be added anywhere on the vehicle.

(Missing the pole because it makes the rhino so much harder to transport, I think)



* Excerpt from the Wikipedia article about baroque: “The popularity and success of the Baroque style was encouraged by the Catholic Church, which had decided at the time of the Council of Trent, in response to the Protestant Reformation, that the arts should communicate religious themes in direct and emotional involvement.”

"Gothic" as in "baroque and ornate"... though plenty of Sisters of the Orders Non-Militant wear the habits depicted above (as do the Sisters of Orders Militant when they aren't actually engaged in combat operations). The Hospitaler helmet, iirc, looks like a wimple.

The armor they have worn has never been "slinky". It's less-bulky that Space Marine PA, certainly, but, then again, a Sister is a human-sized, extremely-athletic female compared to a seven-foot, three hundred-kilo transhumanist male. Sisters PA also lacks a lot of the secondary systems and strength boosts that Astartes PA has (though it provides the same basic protection).

"Slinky" was Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau, who wore a skintight suit of PA under his robes of office. One might even describe it as "bootylicious".

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Indomitus Pattern and Gorgon Pattern Terminators don't really lend themselves to it.

Do they lend themselves to being worn by actual human being?

 BaronIveagh wrote:
Cataphractii and Tartaros could be made to fit women by altering the hip/chest ratio and slightly reducing the shoulder width and overall height.

Are the difference in hip/chest ratio not going to be COMPLETELY obscured by padding anyway? And I would like to have a look at the statistics about shoulder width, to see if this is really significant. I mean, if the difference between the average width for male and the average width for female is less than the standard deviation for either gender…

 Psienesis wrote:

"Slinky" was Inquisitor Obi-Wan Sherlock Clousseau, who wore a skintight suit of PA under his robes of office. One might even describe it as "bootylicious".

Thanks for that, I have coffee on my keyboard

 Psienesis wrote:
"Gothic" as in "baroque and ornate"...

And a dozen art historians cried in anguish!
(Though I am not in a position to jab too much because I did the very same just above ^^. Despite being regularly opposed to each other, even though Baroque came after Gothic and is a bit defined by what it changed from Gothic, it still looks similar from a modern point of view because so much more has changed that now we mostly see the similarities ^^)

Gothic as in "they're destroying our cultural heritage with their ugly-arse buildings and decorations that look like something the Vandals would dream up" perhaps..? :p

If they didn't want their cultural heritage destroyed, they should have thought about that before they became Heretics.

...

... we're still talking about Sisters, right?

 Psienesis wrote:

They're Gothic Space Nuns. Of course their armor is going to be a black corset with sharp ridges and eighty-five tons of solid gold bling. This is 40k. How things actually work IRL has absolutely no place when discussing the look and feel of the setting, which is why tanks that would be out-classed by something from WW2 are considered the masters of the battlefield and elite soldiers act like medieval knights in bright colors and heraldry.

They don't have to be space nuns though. I think part of the problem, is the image problem. More so than being women, they're just not "cool" compared to other armies. Even other armies with a significant number of females have the edge in this regard. Eldar and dark eldar female fighters are crazy acrobat-assassins, Tau and IG (not depicted in any models) have female solders, just as competent and badass as the male solders. SoB have nuns. Nuns with power armor and guns, admittedly, but nuns nonetheless. When was the last time nuns were cool?

They need an image update, though I'm not sure to what. Short of just embracing the bling to a level that would make slaanesh jealous, I'm not sure what else the eclessiarchy has going for it. Thankfully it's never too late to retcon and take the line in a completely different direction (like necrons embracing their egyptian side). Mybe they can go full space Bretonians and get cavalry with power-armored horses.


Unfortunately the army can't succeed on concept alone. It needs strong rules, so competitive players will play it, and interesting models to move kits (though how much either of these help, we'll never know since GW doesn't really release sales data).

 Rainyday wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

They're Gothic Space Nuns. Of course their armor is going to be a black corset with sharp ridges and eighty-five tons of solid gold bling. This is 40k. How things actually work IRL has absolutely no place when discussing the look and feel of the setting, which is why tanks that would be out-classed by something from WW2 are considered the masters of the battlefield and elite soldiers act like medieval knights in bright colors and heraldry.

They don't have to be space nuns though. I think part of the problem, is the image problem. More so than being women, they're just not "cool" compared to other armies. Even other armies with a significant number of females have the edge in this regard. Eldar and dark eldar female fighters are crazy acrobat-assassins, Tau and IG (not depicted in any models) have female solders, just as competent and badass as the male solders. SoB have nuns. Nuns with power armor and guns, admittedly, but nuns nonetheless. When was the last time nuns were cool?

They need an image update, though I'm not sure to what. Short of just embracing the bling to a level that would make slaanesh jealous, I'm not sure what else the eclessiarchy has going for it. Thankfully it's never too late to retcon and take the line in a completely different direction (like necrons embracing their egyptian side). Mybe they can go full space Bretonians and get cavalry with power-armored horses.


Unfortunately the army can't succeed on concept alone. It needs strong rules, so competitive players will play it, and interesting models to move kits (though how much either of these help, we'll never know since GW doesn't really release sales data).

I am actually going to quote Furyo to answer that question, because I think that her thoughts on the matter pretty much match my own, but she said it in a way that is way better than anything I could ever come up with:

I play Sisters because a slew of reasons. While other armies eventually bore me, I know I can always bring out the Sisters to have a good, fun, knock-down drag-out fight that, no matter who I'm facing, will be a close run battle of tactics and luck - as opposed to a rofltstomp or an inevitable demise. I also love the concept of nuns with guns... and flamethrowers.

It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?"

Instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch. Pure. Badass.

Actually, I stole the latter part of that quote ("It's like..." from someone else's signature. Manchu maybe? Can't remember.

As for the last time nuns were cool.. Have you not seen Black Lagoon?

 Rainyday wrote:
Tau and IG (not depicted in any models) have female solders,

Through the wonders of alien anatomy, the difference between a male and female fire warrior is a headswap. Unless they're wearing a helmet. In which case you have a 50/50 chance either way.

Frankly, the guard models could be easily extended the same courtesy and it would make sense with the mass produced nature of their gear.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Rainyday wrote:
Tau and IG (not depicted in any models) have female solders,

Through the wonders of alien anatomy, the difference between a male and female fire warrior is a headswap. Unless they're wearing a helmet. In which case you have a 50/50 chance either way.

Frankly, the guard models could be easily extended the same courtesy and it would make sense with the mass produced nature of their gear.

I believe it was one of the Ciaphas Cain novels that said the guard equipment is either too large or too small, so yes, a headswap would work just fine for a female in the Guard. Or you can look into 3rd party minis.

I haven't read all of the responses but I have my own thoughts on why.

I think it has a lot to do with how they fit into the current world. It took DE a long time to get an actual update and I believe that was because they couldn't find a place for them in the current universe. Eventually, though, they did find a way to work them in and now they have become a welcomed part of the whole universe.

Same with Tau, sort of. According to Andy Chambers, the Tau were created to represent a young race, unaffected by the grim darkness of the universe, and how they change as they become more exposed to it.
Exact wording from Andy Chambers:
Sorry about quality, was very small to begin with.
To be honest that was always the intention with Tau - to show a young, upcoming race that was naive about the dark and nasty universe they inhabited and then show their gradual slide into an autocracy and self-imposed ignorance. No one gets out of the Grimdark alive.

So, as someone said, SoB do seem like just another army but that isn't quite SM or IG. I think if they gave them the same, small release, treatment that they gave Harlequins it would go over well. Not much story needs to be done for them in this way, but it adds an interesting aspect to any IoM army looking to diversify. GW just has to find a place for them where they fit and a story that works for them otherwise they will remain in development hell.

 Psienesis wrote:
Again, many model companies sculpt female models in 28mm scale just fine (Malifaux, Infinity, RH, Ral Partha, HeroForge, and, yes, even Games Workshop... there are female character models in other armies, ffs!)

... so it's not an issue with the sculpt. If GW no longer has a modeler with the necessary talent to create the cast, then that's a problem in GW's art team. Not a problem with the sculpt itself. This is a non-argument with no evidence to support it, and plenty of evidence in GW's own product line, both current and historical, to refute it.

Is it a cost of production issue? We have no way of knowing, and since GW doesn't do market research, they have no way of knowing, either. They, literally, by their own words, have No Fething Clue how well any product they produce is going to sell. Because they don't do market research. They have only the sales numbers from previous releases to go by, and that applies to every product line they have. When they release a new Space Marine product, whether its a model or a book, they have only the previous version of it by which to guess how it will do. Since they don't do market research, they don't know whether that item has more or fewer users than it did the last time, whether it's bought for use in a game or for sitting on shelves (the former means more sales, the latter means fewer) or... anything. They know next to nothing about their own products' performance in the market outside of sales volumes.

So why don't they do a Sisters update? Because, by and large, GW is grossly incompetent. Every indicator of the wargaming market indicates this is the case. In a market that has been exploding over the last several years, with a dozen companies coming in and posting big numbers and indicating growing sales and expanding user-bases, GW (and, basically, GW alone) is the only one falling, failing to respond to changes in the market, failing to respond to competition in the market, failing to respond to the demands of their customers.

Why?

Because they are incompetent.

Me? I'm done with GW. They could release a Sisters Codex and an all-plastic model line tomorrow, that makes the Sisters a top-tier army with so many awesome unit-choices that it makes the Tau and Eldar lines look like monopose monolisting in comparison, and it wouldn't matter to me. I am done with GW, done with their hush-hush secret release schedule, their schizophrenic attitude towards their own products and their HUA design philosophy.

GW is not a company deserving of the faith of its fans, because that faith will, in all likelihood, not be rewarded.

It isn't incompetence if it won't make money. Sisters didn't make money and won't make money. Dark Eldar are the same, except they simply got lucky for an update.

Market research doesn't have to be done to figure that out.