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 Melissia wrote:
My point is we need better model design than "OH HEY LOOK AT THESE BOOBS SEE THEY ARE FEMALE BECAUSE OF THEIR BOOBS DO YOU NOT SEE THEIR BOOBS SEE THEIR BOOBS SAY THEY ARE FEMALE BECAUSE FEMALES HAVE BOOBS HAHA LOOK BOOBS DON'T YOU LIKE THEM THEY'RE BOOBS WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE AND BY THE WAY DON'T FORGET THEY'RE FEMALE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BOOBS WHICH MAKES THEM FEMALE!"

Nothing about SoB armor really strikes me as trying to overly sexualize the sisters. If anything it reminds me of Victorian/Gothic fashion with their corsets except done in the form of plate power armor providing full body protection. Catachans with their steroid induced bulging muscles and bare chests are far more impractical, sexualized, and over the top than standard SoB armor. I won't really bother defending repentia except that we see stuff like arco-flagellant with a similar look for males. Personally I really like the design of the Sisters (minus the repentia as it just seems silly over anything interesting) and it fits with the Imperium's gothic theme. 100% realistic and practical design would just be boring as everyone would look the same with full body mechanical power armor with zero noticeable difference between male, female, living, or robot.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You are kidding, right? Or you have never seen artwork of marines without the helmet?

Like this guy?

 Vankraken wrote:
Catachans with their steroid induced bulging muscles and bare chests are far more impractical, sexualized, and over the top than standard SoB armor.

Agreed for impractical. Disagree with sexualized and over the top. If you are looking for sexualized males, the only one that could arguably fit the bill in 40k are the Sanguinary Guards and some of the male wyches.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaronIveagh wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

You are kidding, right? Or you have never seen artwork of marines without the helmet?

Like this guy?

Spoiler:

Woah, that's an antiquity! Is he not that half-eldar guy ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Woah, that's an antiquity! Is he not that half-eldar guy ?

And is that supposed to be a portrait of the Emperor (enthroned) behind him?

Be careful with that.

Its an antique.

 Vankraken wrote:
Nothing about SoB armor really strikes me as trying to overly sexualize the sisters. If anything it reminds me of Victorian/Gothic fashion with their corsets

Victorian corsets were made to help ensure a specific body shape, which made the waist slimmer and boobs more prominent, at the expense of comfort and ability to breathe. They also wear high heel boots-- such heels are designed to give the impression of longer, more slender legs, IE sexualize the person wearing them at the expense of the greater mobility other kinds of footwear offers.

Both of these things fit very clearly in the sexual fetishes of Blanche as portrayed in his artwork (the most prominent example of which... I can't actually post here, because it's NSFW, but this one works too-- fetishes not too dissimilar from the Canoness image inside of Codex: Witch Hunter), the most prominent visual designer of Sisters of Battle. It's hard for me to believe people say they aren't sexualized when the artist who dominated their visual design added his favorite sexual fetishes to them.

 Manchu wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Woah, that's an antiquity! Is he not that half-eldar guy ?

And is that supposed to be a portrait of the Emperor (enthroned) behind him?

You can tell this guy is a badass by the fact he keeps raptors, and he uses them. As tables. To write stuff. Using their blood as ink. If that is not badass, what is?

 Melissia wrote:

No, the argument is about whether or not we need to emphasize to the point of parody the visual differences between women and men.

The SoB are intentionally parody, though, like almost all 40k is.

They're battle nuns who really don't understand what being a nun is about, hence why they dress as heavily armoured pseudo-dominatrixes.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Nothing about SoB armor really strikes me as trying to overly sexualize the sisters. If anything it reminds me of Victorian/Gothic fashion with their corsets

Victorian corsets were made to help ensure a specific body shape, which made the waist slimmer and boobs more prominent, at the expense of comfort and ability to breathe. They also wear high heel boots-- such heels are designed to give the impression of longer, more slender legs, IE sexualize the person wearing them at the expense of the greater mobility other kinds of footwear offers.

Both of these things fit very clearly in the sexual fetishes of Blanche as portrayed in his artwork (the most prominent example of which... I can't actually post here, because it's NSFW, but this one works too), the most prominent visual designer of Sisters of Battle. It's hard for me to believe people say they aren't sexualized when the artist who dominated their visual design added his favorite sexual fetishes to them.

Self-flagellation is a major part of Catholicism and it's part of the Sisters of Battle because of it. It's just that simple, really.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Hey, do not take my word for it, look it up on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_verification_in_sports
Enjoy this:
“While it would seem a simple case of checking for XX vs. XY chromosomes to determine whether an athlete is a woman or a man, it is not that simple. Fetuses start out as undifferentiated, and the Y chromosome turns on a variety of hormones that differentiate the baby as a male. Sometimes this does not occur, and people with two X chromosomes can develop hormonally as a male, and people with an X and a Y can develop hormonally as a female.”
And the reference:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/22/sports/22runner.html

So a ridiculously obscure genetic condition makes it so that you can't detect for gender and there are no gender differences?

It'd be like arguing that the woman with 46XX/46Y who was, for all intents and purposes, female but with a much greater bone density and muscle mass than the average woman disproves everything. It's a rare genetic condition. It might "not be that simple", but 99.9% of the time it is.

 Melissia wrote:
They also wear high heel boots

Thankfully this was limited to a sole artwork by Blanche that was basically never re-used. All the models and all the other illustrations have flat soles.

 nullBolt wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, the argument is about whether or not we need to emphasize to the point of parody the visual differences between women and men.

The SoB are intentionally parody, though, like almost all 40k is.

On the contrary. All parts of 40k take themselves quite seriously to ensure the grimdark. Even Orks.

 nullBolt wrote:
So a ridiculously obscure genetic condition makes it so that you can't detect for gender and there are no gender differences?

Certainly you ought to go all sarcastic over all the professional sports organization that organize those tests .
Face it, history has way too many examples of women pretending to be men (and the other way around) for you to act like the differences are such a big deal…

 Melissia wrote:

 nullBolt wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, the argument is about whether or not we need to emphasize to the point of parody the visual differences between women and men.

The SoB are intentionally parody, though, like almost all 40k is.

On the contrary. All parts of 40k take themselves quite seriously to ensure the grimdark. Even Orks.

orks are serious?? even Wazdakka who looted a battle cannon from a lemon russ and attached it to his warbike, which was kicked back half a meter every time he fired the cannon. I'm afraid you've lost me

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Woah, that's an antiquity! Is he not that half-eldar guy ?

No, it's actually Calgar, same guy as in yours, just in mk 6 armor. Your pic is of him in the Armour of Antilochus, a unique suit of terminator armor that seems to make him even bigger than regular termies, based on the TT models.

 BaronIveagh wrote:
No, it's actually Calgar, same guy as in yours, just in mk 6 armor. Your pic is of him in the Armour of Antilochus, a unique suit of terminator armor that seems to make him even bigger than regular termies, based on the TT models.

You missed the joke.

I was implying your image was so goddamn old it was completely outdated and irrelevant.


Also my picture is definitely Calgar in his artificer armor.
See:
- Artificer armor:

- Antioch armor:

- My image:

The shape of the pauldrons is a direct giveaway.

Looks like three separate sets of armor, to me.

What I wonder why is why not simply give sisters -actual- gothic armor? All you'd need to do is remove the silly corset and boobplate, slap a normal fluted breastplate on and BAM, gothic space knight nuns. Just give it a slight bump at the breast if you absolutely must be able to tell the gender of the wearer in such a simplistic way.



The reason why I don't buy sisters is because their current design looks utterly ridiculous on top of having terribly expensive metal models. If both of those stopped being an issue, I would definitely consider buying some in the future as allies for DA. All of this could be accomplished by a simple swap of a chest piece.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:
Nothing about SoB armor really strikes me as trying to overly sexualize the sisters. If anything it reminds me of Victorian/Gothic fashion with their corsets

Victorian corsets were made to help ensure a specific body shape, which made the waist slimmer and boobs more prominent, at the expense of comfort and ability to breathe. They also wear high heel boots-- such heels are designed to give the impression of longer, more slender legs, IE sexualize the person wearing them at the expense of the greater mobility other kinds of footwear offers.

Let me be more clear, when I mean overly sexualize I mean it is intended to elicit sexual attraction or eroticism (aka a "that's hot" reaction). What Sisters power armor does do is highlight some of their feminine features to illustrate that they are females. Considering their entire design is to be an all female fighting force then such elements seem to fit (again 40K is very exaggerated in its artistic design, nothing is practical in the slightest). That Victorian/Gothic design is very much at home in a Futuristic Gothic themed setting. Also they don't seem to wear high heels in any of the art from a quick google search and have fairly standard looking knight like plate greaves/boots.

 Melissia wrote:

 nullBolt wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No, the argument is about whether or not we need to emphasize to the point of parody the visual differences between women and men.

The SoB are intentionally parody, though, like almost all 40k is.

On the contrary. All parts of 40k take themselves quite seriously to ensure the grimdark. Even Orks.

Everything in 40k is over the top. Maybe some of the narrative writers think the setting is more serious but the original concept and the still overarching theme of this universe is how absurd and parody like this universe is, especially the Imperium of Man. Orks in particular are played up for comical effect with how their technology works, their society, their cockney accents, and crazy antics on the battlefield. The only way Orks could be more non serious would be if their Weirdboyz started breaking the 4th wall and talking to the reader/player/etc.

On the sexualisation thing, Marines all have massive codpieces, except Scouts, which don't have any armour plate there, they just have massive trouser bulges.

I mean, just look at that 2e Calgar picture with his massive shiny dong-guard.

Two points as a Sisters of Battle player;

1. The design choices of Sisters fall into the crazy 80's metal band ascetic that 40k used to follow. Most armies have been updated into poor looking super serious everything is hardcore designs that I think are boorish compared to older designs.

2. Sisters are not hyper sexual, the closest you can get are Repentia but they actually have a fluff reason for running into battle with nothing but pieces of cloth strapped to their bodies. Boob plate is not sexual in this situation, it can be don't get me wrong, but in the case of 40k it is more due to the 28mm heroic scale that they use. Heroic scale is all about emphasizing portions of the human body in order to show something from the tabletop to anyone observing. The argument as I see it is that some people feel that boob plate is inherently sexist, while others see it as a way to differentiate a female from a male from the eyes of someone looking down at a table from 3 to 4 feet away. If all you want is to run a bunch of gender neutral suits of armor you can do that with the existing Space Marines. No matter what changes you make to make a suit of armor look more feminine based on shoulder width, hip width, or what ever have you means NOTHING as a man with wide hips could be in that armor as much as any woman. The only way to SHOW that someone in a full suit of armor is a woman is boob plate. That is why it is used. If the designers WANTED ambiguity they could easily do that but the core of the Sisters of Battle is that it is an army of women and the arguably best way to show that they are women from 3 to 4 feet away is to show that they have breast because that is the one thing that men do not have and can not have naturally, something that any human being can see and immediately recognize as female.

Back on topic, I think that GW doesn't redo Sisters right now because they are looking for minimal investment with maximum return with the entire company right now. AoS is a prime example of this as are many of the newer codices. It would require a great deal of investment on their part in order to release a brand new wave of miniatures for the entire army. It is easier for them to just let Sisters sit on life support, letting the stock they have just dwindle down.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
On the sexualisation thing, Marines all have massive codpieces, except Scouts, which don't have any armour plate there, they just have massive trouser bulges.

I mean, just look at that 2e Calgar picture with his massive shiny dong-guard.

That's a feature, not a bug.

 Wyzilla wrote:
What I wonder why is why not simply give sisters -actual- gothic armor? All you'd need to do is remove the silly corset and boobplate, slap a normal fluted breastplate on and BAM, gothic space knight nuns. Just give it a slight bump at the breast if you absolutely must be able to tell the gender of the wearer in such a simplistic way.

Spoiler:

The reason why I don't buy sisters is because their current design looks utterly ridiculous on top of having terribly expensive metal models. If both of those stopped being an issue, I would definitely consider buying some in the future as allies for DA. All of this could be accomplished by a simple swap of a chest piece.

They could even have rank-and-file in normal breastplate and save the full-boobplate for characters. Just like SM characters get to go without helmets and handwave it with "oh, the power armor field protects the head."

 Vankraken wrote:
What Sisters power armor does do is highlight some of their feminine features to illustrate that they are females.

You can do that without having boobs big enough to hide a missile launcher inside, you know.

Hell, we can even go for a compromise:



Breastplate here has a distinct chest bulge (which is actually present in some IRL armors), but not boob-bulge. And yet because it's so different from marines, it'd be easy to distinguish and people would think, especially along with the heads and cloth sleeves and waistcloth, feminine compared to Marines.

I THINK I FIGURED IT OUT!!!!!

GW doesn't remake Sisters because they read Dakka and see how every single Sisters thread devolves like this and think "Feth not, not touching that with a bargepole".

Implying that they actually read Dakka.

 Melissia wrote:
Implying that they actually read Dakka.

Implying they can read.

Good god people enough with the boob-plate discussion we have heard nine million times before. No one is being convinced and you aren't going to win this argument. Personally, I like the models shape right now. I never thought of them as over sexualized or even just sexualized. Knowing what I know about Sisters I doubt they even care. Move on.

The boob plate "problems" some people have... It's silly to be bothered by it. There are enough instances of armor stylized faux-anatomy that its silly to view that anything other than styling. For example we can all look at Blood Angels and believe that those golden abs are not modeled after the marines actual abs, that those golden nipples aren't modeled after the marines actual nipples.

If I had to use my imagination for half a second I would say SoB armor is effeminate because the Ecclesiarchy walks a fine line by maintaining a standing army that per the fluff they are only able to because all SoB are women and need to make it clear they are all women.

Back to the topic of why GW won't release plastic sisters. Currently a squad of 10 is $79 US. When a 10 man plastic squad of Space Marines reaches around $75 is when I would expect to see plastic sisters. GW stands firm that they will not lower their prices so obviously they need to increase prices of other stuff to match the cost of Sisters.

 Melissia wrote:
Looks like three separate sets of armor, to me.

Could be. But does anyone think a man could actually wear any of those suits while having his arms and legs attached in some kind of normal positions?

 Vankraken wrote:
Back to the topic of why GW won't release plastic sisters. Currently a squad of 10 is $79 US. When a 10 man plastic squad of Space Marines reaches around $75 is when I would expect to see plastic sisters. GW stands firm that they will not lower their prices so obviously they need to increase prices of other stuff to match the cost of Sisters.

If GW wants that kind of price for SoB they'd probably do a 5 model box for $35-40; not that they should price them that way.