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Guys, stop arguing. Melissa is right about everything, just ask her. If you keep arguing she'll start an English lesson.

Oi. Attack the post, not the poster.

Blood of Martyrs also gives Sisters light power armour, civilian bolters, and eye lasers, but hey, whatever floats your boat. Murders the rest of the fluff.

Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

A fair points cost can justify almost any unit but in all honesty I see a celestian with artificer armour and power weapon to probably be priced around the 25 points mark. Add in any special weapons cost, like the suggested meltagun and suddenly you're at 35 points for the model assuming the master crafted rule comes for free. An Eldar fire dragon is 22 points a model and while having a melta gun himself he also has melta bombs and a unit-wide rule that makes them even more amazing at popping vehicles. I just have a hard time imagining celestians ever being worth their points investment like this.

I think my greatest gripe however is that ultimately they would feel bland. Celestians with melta guns? Why not dominions then? Celestians with heavy weapons? Why not retributors instead? They wouldn't add anything unique to the army. Now celestians with power weapons and artificer armor still has all the drawbacks of current assault rules, delivery method and mobility being two huge ones coupled with S3 T3 W1, they wouldn't hold a candle to some of the other solid melee units out there.

I'd like to see clestians fill a unique role within the SoB army that makes them a fun option to play. The variable blessed ammunition rule I proposed sounds fun to me and makes them unique and greatly versatile. I'm open to hearing other suggestions about ways to make them a desirable option, including options to make them our premiere SoB melee unit without going into repentia. Ultimately what I feel they need is to be unique and fun to play while still filling a role that may otherwise be left open by our army.

As for those discussing the fluff and Frateris Militia stuff. It's been my observation across many threads when fluff is involved that a few things stick out. Given that these are works of fiction of the written word some people get different impressions of the same subject matter, it's not a matter of who's right or wrong but a matter perspective and peoples interpretations of our language. Secondly is that many people tend to cite sources, which I think is fantastic, but quite often two sources of fluff from different mediums and authors will contradict each other. GW is not innocent of breaking their own fluff and so it depends on which book you read as to what version of fluff you'll be presented. With a universe as large as the 40K universe with as many writers as it has I think it's near impossible not to break your own fluff every once in a while. Or depending on how far back you go into the history of 40K like RT days certain aspects of fluff are brushed under the carpet as if they never happened because it is no longer the image GW desires for their Grimdark universe even though they don't officially state it is no longer cannon. Just in short I think many arguments concerning fluff may be best served by simply admitting you have differing perspectives on the subject and then moving on from it.

Just my opinion anyways, carry on.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

Nah given recent 7.5 codexs - if they did a compartive codex Sororitas would be cheaper, with more options and formation and deatchment buffs

so you'd be looking at Artifcer/power weapon Celestains cheaper than honour Guard - you could choose one unit with a cannoness and banner and give them +1 WS and Shred or something. The main detachment woud get +1 to Sheild fo Faith and re-rolls etc...

Exocists would get to fire twice if they did not move

you know the same cheese as everyone else who is a 7.5 Codex

RULE #1 - MANDATORY, NOT OPTIONAL!

Do NOT attack individual posters - debate their points, by all means, but leave it at that.

Thanks!

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I'd like to see clestians fill a unique role within the SoB army that makes them a fun option to play. The variable blessed ammunition rule I proposed sounds fun to me and makes them unique and greatly versatile.

Aye, something like the SM Sternguard special bolter ammo might be good. Sisters did have access to holy ammo for vehicle heavy bolters at some point, as I recall - they had Ignore Cover? Celestians that had access to a few special rounds could be both useful and fluffy. An ignore cover round, something that puts stuff on fire and maybe some anti-infantry firepower in a round that produces a small blast? We're sorely lacking in blasts anyway.

I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well. Even going with the Sternguard comparison, most people take Sternguard for the combiweapons, the ammo is just a bonus.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well.

OK, how about Strength D bolters then? Every serious army should have D guns so maybe Celestians is the way to get that for the SoB?

Spetulhu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well.

OK, how about Strength D bolters then? Every serious army should have D guns so maybe Celestians is the way to get that for the SoB?

Take me now Golden throne, I beseech thee!

It'd make it far more interesting if, say, they reworked the Sarissas rules and made them a general purpose assault / shooting unit. Something that can be good at both.

Give them their old WS4 / I4, make Sarissas let them be able to charge after using Rapid Fire, give them access to power weapon upgrades, for example. There's tons of ways one can do this, really.

 Melissia wrote:

As they are the Planetary Defense Force, they are not the standing army of the Ecclesiarchy. PDFs fall under the Departmento Munitorum, not the Ecclesiarchy.

No, they serve in the place OF a PDF. Not that they ARE a PDF. Hence 'Maccabian Militia' instead of MPDF. Maccabeus Quintus is a Tithe Grade: Non Shrine World. The whole planet was given over to the Ecclesiarchy, and the IG units raised from it are stated to consider the service to the Departmento as a form of Pilgrimage.

I tend to view the decree passive like the part where Space Marines are not allowed to have warships penned by the Primarchs after the Heresy: Filled with exceptions and contradictions big enough to hide a battleship in (literally in the latter case).

 BaronIveagh wrote:
I tend to view the decree passive like the part where Space Marines are not allowed to have warships penned by the Primarchs after the Heresy: Filled with exceptions and contradictions big enough to hide a battleship in (literally in the latter case).

Over the course of ten thousand years, the rules have been bent and broken quite a bit, yes. But that is the rule officially.

 Melissia wrote:
I don't really see how making their bullets a little more bling makes them stand out particularly that well. Even going with the Sternguard comparison, most people take Sternguard for the combiweapons, the ammo is just a bonus.

If I wanted to take a squad with combi weapons I would take a command squad, not sternguard. Hell I would just give the command squad the special weapon they need. You take Sternguard for the Ammo, not combi weapons

 Melissia wrote:
It'd make it far more interesting if, say, they reworked the Sarissas rules and made them a general purpose assault / shooting unit. Something that can be good at both.

Give them their old WS4 / I4, make Sarissas let them be able to charge after using Rapid Fire, give them access to power weapon upgrades, for example. There's tons of ways one can do this, really.

I said this once and i'll say it again, celestians are not assault units and should never be. they simply lack the stat line and equipment for it. if you want to make them better at assault do it defensively with rules like counter attack. celestians should be portrayed as they are in the fluff, veteran sister squads with a more tactical mindset. This can be achieved by letting them get a greater range of equipment like the blessed ammunition and perhaps artificer Armour and +1 ballistic skill. this gives them greater tactical flexibility since they can change their ammo on the battle field to deal with specific threats as they arise.

sarissas are chain bayonets attached to the bottom of the bolter, in other words they are basic close combat weapons, think spending two point per model to give them an extra attack in melee

 Vandire651 wrote:
I said this once and i'll say it again, celestians are not assault units and should never be. they simply lack the stat line

They used to have WS4 I4, which alongside acts of faith and their 3+ armor, would make them assault units. They can be again. Living in steadfast denial of this makes your argument laughably unconvincing.

And they definitely should be. They are literally described as the Order's best fighters. What you want them to be is "100% the same as battle sisters, but with fancy wargear". Which is kind of boring. We already have that in Dominions. Celestians need something different.

Also, Sarissas are vicious spiked add-ons that work in place of a bayonet according to most lore. Though that said, the only picture we have of them though makes them look like serrated axe-bayonets; suffice it to say, the lore on them is inconsistent. They could easily use that to justify re-rolling of wounds or the ability to charge after shooting.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
I said this once and i'll say it again, celestians are not assault units and should never be. they simply lack the stat line

They used to have WS4 I4, which alongside acts of faith and their 3+ armor, would make them assault units. They can be again.

And they definitely should be. They are literally described as the Order's best fighters. What you want them to be is "100% the same as battle sisters, but with fancy wargear". Which is kind of boring. We already have that in Dominions. Celestians need something different.

Also, Sarissas are vicious spiked add-ons that work in place of a bayonet. They could easily use that to justify re-rolling of wounds or the ability to charge after shooting.

having WS4 and I4 doesn't help make up for S3, T3, and only 2 attacks, against dedicated assault units like bezerkers or even a standard assault squad they simply don't stand a chance.

celestians are described as the orders best warriors yes, but these doesn't necessarily mean they are close quarter combatants, it is also a tad strange that celestians, after decades of service in line squads focusing on firing bolters and flamers would suddenly switch over to charging the enemy with power weapons in hand. that isn't the purpose they have been trained for and experienced over their decades of service.

I don't want them to be a carbon copy of sister squads. dominion squads are usually armed with only melta guns or maybe flamers and sent in the vanguard to take down assigned threats. this makes them very good at their assigned role but makes them tactically inflexible when their target has been eliminated. celestians however would be able to switch their roles as the match goes on, switching from dragon fire rounds to deal with hordes in cover to vengeance rounds to deal with power armored elites.

the sarrissa is a bayonet, usually a chain bayonet, attached to the bottom of the bolter. imperial guard also has a bayonet at the bottom of their lazguns. some space marines chooce to attach chain bayonets to their bolters, especially traitor legions and loyalists before and during the horus heresy. notice how they don't get rerolling wounds or charge after shooting, they only thing the legions get for grabbing bayonets are an extra close combat weapon

 Vandire651 wrote:
celestians are described as the orders best warriors yes, but these doesn't necessarily mean they are close quarter combatants

It doesn't have to no. But it does mean more than your idea, given that you suggest their only combat prowess over normal Battle Sisters is they get shiny new bullets.

For someone trying to act like a stickler to the lore, you're advocating disregarding old lore and creating new lore so that you can add something quite boring and unimaginative instead in the form of shiny bullets.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the sarrissa is a bayonet, usually a chain bayonet, attached to the bottom of the bolter.

It's a special piece of wargear unique to the Sisters of Battle, which was at one point given special rules letting them reroll to-wound rolls in close combat. At one point, there was no difference between power swords, power axes, and power lances, but now there is. Acting like we can't create some small benefit to Sarissas for Celestians is kind of silly given that you're suggesting brand new rules as it is.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
celestians are described as the orders best warriors yes, but these doesn't necessarily mean they are close quarter combatants

It doesn't have to no. But it does mean more than your idea, given that you suggest their only combat prowess over normal Battle Sisters is they get shiny new bullets.

For someone trying to act like a stickler to the lore, you're advocating disregarding old lore and creating new lore so that you can add something quite boring and unimaginative instead in the form of shiny bullets.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the sarrissa is a bayonet, usually a chain bayonet, attached to the bottom of the bolter.

It's a special piece of wargear unique to the Sisters of Battle, which was at one point given special rules letting them reroll to-wound rolls in close combat. At one point, there was no difference between power swords, power axes, and power lances, but now there is. Acting like we can't create some small benefit to Sarissas for Celestians is kind of silly given that you're suggesting brand new rules as it is.

say that you have a 10 sister celestian squad with WS4 and I4, you load them up with sarrissas and power weapons at 2 points per sarissa and 5 points per power weapon that still ends up as 210 points. a full squad of space marine honor guard spends that much and we both know the honor guard are going to crump the celestians with or without faith. you either give the celestian power axes and go for hand of the emperor, in which case you have the ap and the strength to do damage but you still have T3 and the honor guard strike first. if you go for power maces and the passion you go first, but you now have to go through their artificer Armour and your still T3. trying to make the celestians a dedicated assault unit will simply not work.

if you want to improve the celestians assault game you have to do it defensibly, let the enemy charge you and eat the over watch, if you have to give the sarrissa (which is basically a bayonet, a weapon type that practically every imperial force gets) a special rule make it counter attack to represent the sisters bracing a bayonet line against the heretics, maybe even give them defensive grenades, say it is from the same STC fragments the immolator came from to explain why other imperial forces don't get it.

the point is that I at least don't see the sisters as a generalist army like the space marines, able to both charge into melee or shoot from range. I see them more like storm troopers with better equipment and increased zeal, you don't want to engage in melee, you want to draw out the shooting phase and use assault defensibly.

regarding making celestians unique, other then the above suggestion i have already suggested letting them get artificer Armour, special ammunition and increased BS to represent their years of experience and their elite status within the sisterhood, I've also suggested earlier i this thread to give them precision shot rule to allow them to take out specific threats within enemy squads. also sternguard are regarded as unique from the basic tactical squad and all they have is access to combi-weapons and special ammunition, I think the celestians will be doing fine in the unique department.

 Vandire651 wrote:
regarding making celestians unique, other then the above suggestion i have already suggested letting them get artificer Armour, special ammunition and increased BS to represent their years of experience and their elite status within the sisterhood, I've also suggested earlier i this thread to give them precision shot rule to allow them to take out specific threats within enemy squads. also sternguard are regarded as unique from the basic tactical squad and all they have is access to combi-weapons and special ammunition, I think the celestians will be doing fine in the unique department.

So basically turn them in to sniper squads?

That really doesn't work for a bodyguard unit.

Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

 Melissia wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
regarding making celestians unique, other then the above suggestion i have already suggested letting them get artificer Armour, special ammunition and increased BS to represent their years of experience and their elite status within the sisterhood, I've also suggested earlier i this thread to give them precision shot rule to allow them to take out specific threats within enemy squads. also sternguard are regarded as unique from the basic tactical squad and all they have is access to combi-weapons and special ammunition, I think the celestians will be doing fine in the unique department.

So basically turn them in to sniper squads?

That really doesn't work for a bodyguard unit.

Only celestians in the command squad serve as bodyguards, though I admit precision shot is perhaps not the best special rule to apply to the celestians(I was trying to find a way to represent there more tactical mindset)
If you find a better rule for the celestians I am happy to hear suggestions.


P.S sorry for the late reply on the last bit but you finished editing it when I was first replying

 Melissia wrote:


Also? Just because I want Celestians to return to the glory that they used to have doesn't mean I want Sisters to be generalists. Celestians were actually really damned good at close combat until their nerf.

From earlier posts about making celestians dedicated assault units and giving them power swords I made assumptions about your goal regarding celestions, reading back I seems like you are just trying to give them a greater degree of flexibility by letting them take better close combat weapons and upgrading their weapon skill and initiative. For jumping the gun, I apologize.

I would still preach however that celestians should focus on tactical flexibility with a focus on shooting and that if you want to make them good at assault then it should be done by making them better at acting defensibly and absorbing a charge, instead of just giving them all power weapons, artificer armour and master crafted special weapons and calling it a day like hybrid is talking about(if I've got this wrong hybrid, I apologize)

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

So are you saying this solution is bad because if it is badly costed it won't work?

The idea is to have them be both efficient in cc and in shooting. Imagine a squad of Celestian shooting melta at some big tyranid creature, and then charging to finish it off, would that not look very cool?

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I think my greatest gripe however is that ultimately they would feel bland. Celestians with melta guns? Why not dominions then? Celestians with heavy weapons? Why not retributors instead?

Because of the 2+ armor save and power weapons and all that? Both (heavy) flamers and meltas are assault weapons.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Now celestians with power weapons and artificer armor still has all the drawbacks of current assault rules, delivery method and mobility being two huge ones coupled with S3 T3 W1

Counter-charge unit? And their act of faith can give them the special rule that makes them stand out. Like, say, “ignore invulnerable save” or something.
Also the lack of delivery method can be solved by adding a new fast assault vehicle to the army…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Hybrid: I'd worry then with power weapons, artificer armour and then loaded up with master crafted range weapons the celestians would come at an unholy points cost. Looking at the history of GW points costs for things such as melta guns, which are a standard price to equip on almost any IoM model, then the points cost for celestians would reach crazy high numbers and at the end of the day they are still a S3 T3 W1 model. Even with a 2+ save I don't think they'd have the survivability to make back the points they'd cost.

So are you saying this solution is bad because if it is badly costed it won't work?

The idea is to have them be both efficient in cc and in shooting. Imagine a squad of Celestian shooting melta at some big tyranid creature, and then charging to finish it off, would that not look very cool?

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
I think my greatest gripe however is that ultimately they would feel bland. Celestians with melta guns? Why not dominions then? Celestians with heavy weapons? Why not retributors instead?

Because of the 2+ armor save and power weapons and all that? Both (heavy) flamers and meltas are assault weapons.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Now celestians with power weapons and artificer armor still has all the drawbacks of current assault rules, delivery method and mobility being two huge ones coupled with S3 T3 W1

Counter-charge unit? And their act of faith can give them the special rule that makes them stand out. Like, say, “ignore invulnerable save” or something.
Also the lack of delivery method can be solved by adding a new fast assault vehicle to the army…

the problem with trying to make celestians good at both assaulting other units and shooting them is that you end up with a unit with a large point cost but can be beaten by dedicated units with relative ease at the same amount of points. like i posted above, 10 celestian squad with 10 power weapons and all artificer Armour, if you say for example that both upgrades are 5 points each then you end up at a point cost of 240, if you give the all melta guns at the current price it will jump to 340 points. a ten man honour guard squad armed with power axes nullify the artificer Armour and is two thirds of the cost, with a better stat line to boot. This means you wouldn't assault them and instead try to kite them with meltas(which would be doomed to fail but moving on), at which point you realize you just spend 50 points giving them power weapons to try and make them decent in assault and then not use them due to being out competed by dedicated melee weapons. the same applies to shooting, where you realize you are doomed in a shooting match and try to assault, which is when you realize you might as well save 100 points by dumping the melta guns making them a dedicated assault unit, which I have shown above will not be able to compete with dedicated assault units any way and still cost more if you keep the artificer Armour.
also, if your idea of how to use them as a counter charge unit then you do realize you would be going up against dedicated melee units which would crump them, and be out ranged by standard bolters due to only having meltas, meaning they will be just standing there being shoot at until a dedicated assault unit comes to wipe them, worse spending of 340 points ever.

finely, while i am all for grabbing a unit cause it's cool, either in the fluff or the model itself, I generally want my army to be mildly competitive.

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you say for example that both upgrades are 5 points each then you end up at a point cost of 240, if you give the all melta guns at the current price it will jump to 340 points.

If those point cost do not work, then change the point costs/

 Vandire651 wrote:
a ten man honour guard squad armed with power axes nullify the artificer Armour and is two thirds of the cost, with a better stat line to boot.

Yeah, but after being master crafted melta away, there will be, what, one or two marine standing? Then charge and wipe the guy out.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the same applies to shooting, where you realize you are doomed in a shooting match and try to assault, which is when you realize you might as well save 100 points by dumping the melta guns making them a dedicated assault unit, which I have shown above will not be able to compete with dedicated assault units any way and still cost more if you keep the artificer Armour.

Are you saying that shooting 10 master-crafted at the unit you are charging is useless?

Seriously, I get that putting heavy bolters/multi-melta and power weapons on the same unit is a waste, because you will use either one or the other. But usually, when you are using melta guns or flamers, you are in charge range. That means you will use both against melee enemy, and you will use both against shooty enemy. Instead of doing all your damage in one phase, you will do it in two phases.

Rule 1 of playing an assault army: If you kill the enemy unit in your assault phase and not theirs, you're doing it wrong.
Rule 2: If you kill enough of them in the shooting phase to make charging highly likely to fail, you're doing it wrong.

10 meltaguns firing first before the charge makes it more likely for you to fail your charge range or more likely to wipe them out before their turn. Either way your unit will get shot to death in the enemy turn.

A unit with 10 power weapons and meltaguns would not only be expensive, their mix of weapons would be a terrible combination in a strategic sense.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
if you say for example that both upgrades are 5 points each then you end up at a point cost of 240, if you give the all melta guns at the current price it will jump to 340 points.

If those point cost do not work, then change the point costs/

 Vandire651 wrote:
a ten man honour guard squad armed with power axes nullify the artificer Armour and is two thirds of the cost, with a better stat line to boot.

Yeah, but after being master crafted melta away, there will be, what, one or two marine standing? Then charge and wipe the guy out.

 Vandire651 wrote:
the same applies to shooting, where you realize you are doomed in a shooting match and try to assault, which is when you realize you might as well save 100 points by dumping the melta guns making them a dedicated assault unit, which I have shown above will not be able to compete with dedicated assault units any way and still cost more if you keep the artificer Armour.

Are you saying that shooting 10 master-crafted at the unit you are charging is useless?

Seriously, I get that putting heavy bolters/multi-melta and power weapons on the same unit is a waste, because you will use either one or the other. But usually, when you are using melta guns or flamers, you are in charge range. That means you will use both against melee enemy, and you will use both against shooty enemy. Instead of doing all your damage in one phase, you will do it in two phases.

you are seriously suggesting that after giving the celestion master crafted meltas, artificer armour, power weapons and quite possibly ignore invulnerable saves if your past comment was in any way serious. You then make them cheaper to the point where they can match both dedicated shooting units and dedicated assault units point for point. at that point what you have is no longer a balanced unit, you have one of the most overpowered units in the entire game, which can destroy anythiing from primarchs to titans in a single volley of the guns, then charge and expect them to not only come out on top, but to absolutly decimate them. at this point there is no need for any other unit and the entire codex becoumes a question of how many celestians you can pump out.

as for withstanding meltas, that is why you would either charge a weaker unit in first to absorb over watch or get units which can withstand it, like vanguard veterans with storm shields and power axes, which actually adds up to 340 points, the same cost as 10 sister celestians with artificer armour, power weapons and meltas. notice how I didn't mention the meltas being master crafted, that would cost even more points which might even allow the vanguard veterns to equip jump packs.

kiting would also be a major issue since outside of the standard bolter or storm bolter they wouldn't have any long range weapons, just stay 18 inches away from the celestians and the celestians won't be able to do anything, and if they are keeping the 340 point tag or at least something approaching sensible then they will easily be facing enough anti tank fire to dismount them and they would then be focused down with everything the opponent has, as something that powerful simply cannot be allowed to live.

finally, if you have 10 master crafted meltas, why the heck are you using it as an assault unit, i'd just use it as overpowered dominions and forget about giving them power weapons and artificer armour, those are points better spent getting anouther squad of 10 master crafted meltas. charging anything with them would be a waste anyhow outside of cleaning up greatly weakened units after firing, since even with artificer armour and power weapons they still make poor assault units due to having 3S, 3T and 3I.

at this point my only hope is that you are trolling.

 Vandire651 wrote:
You then make them cheaper to the point where they can match both dedicated shooting units and dedicated assault units point for point.

Taking into account that they would deal damage both during the shooting phase and during the close combat phase.

 Vandire651 wrote:
as for withstanding meltas, that is why you would either charge a weaker unit in first to absorb over watch or get units which can withstand it, like vanguard veterans with storm shields and power axes, which actually adds up to 340 points, the same cost as 10 sister celestians with artificer armour, power weapons and meltas.

The same as your made up cost that poped out of nowhere with any playtesting and balancing . Woah. So, there would be counters? Incredible!

I am also at loss at why you insist the only kit possible would be a ten-women squad with only melta…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
You then make them cheaper to the point where they can match both dedicated shooting units and dedicated assault units point for point.

Taking into account that they would deal damage both during the shooting phase and during the close combat phase.

 Vandire651 wrote:
as for withstanding meltas, that is why you would either charge a weaker unit in first to absorb over watch or get units which can withstand it, like vanguard veterans with storm shields and power axes, which actually adds up to 340 points, the same cost as 10 sister celestians with artificer armour, power weapons and meltas.

The same as your made up cost that poped out of nowhere with any playtesting and balancing . Woah. So, there would be counters? Incredible!

I am also at loss at why you insist the only kit possible would be a ten-women squad with only melta…

as matt.kingsly explained above, you won't be able to charge after firing your master crafted flamers or meltas since you would kill too many models to make the charge, and if you somehow do make the charge then you would likely kill the extremly weakened squad in a single round, leading to the celestians being out in the open to be focused down by the opposing army, since any unit with 10 master crafted meltas and 10 power weapons simply has to die.

I was using the vanguard veterans as an example of a dedicated assault unit. I was doing so to show how an equel amount of points spent on either a dedicated assault unit or a dedicated shooting unit(plasma guns and laz cannons would make short work of celestians and do it for a much lower point cost) would out compete celestians if you made them a jack of all trades.

the cost I got was by getting the price for a basic 10 sister celestian squad, getting the price of powerswords from the space marine codex, vanguard veteran, then I got the price of the melta from the adepta sororitas codex, this added up to 290. granted I got the price of artificer armour by copying the price of the power sword, but that is also inclueded the price of master crafting the meltas and I had to start from somewhere. this added up to a grand total of 340 points.

you also have to find a way to get your super unit of celestians to the front lines and able to charge, if you take a rhino then you would have to wait a turn to assault, which would never happen due to being shot at by the equivalent of 340 points of dakka, at which point you might as well drop the swords to save points. you could take a land raider but sisters don't get them, you'll have to ally them in at which point you lose another 200 points plus points for allies.

the reason why i am only uses meltas is due to any other option being a waste of points. 10 meltas will kill just about every thing, master crafting them just sweetens the deal. you could get storm bolters but at S4 and ap5 they just don't have the omph needed, flamers are another option but they also lack the strength and ap needed and changes charging from extremely improbable to a flat out impossibility, it also makes power swords redundant as no one will willing charge 10 master crafted flamers

 Vandire651 wrote:
I was doing so to show how an equel amount of points spent on either a dedicated assault unit or a dedicated shooting unit(plasma guns and laz cannons would make short work of celestians and do it for a much lower point cost) would out compete celestians if you made them a jack of all trades.

So, you are saying that dedicated assault unit will beat a mixed unit in close combat and a dedicated shooting unit will beat a mixed unit in a shooting contest. Yeah, but the mixed unit will beat the close combat unit in shooting, and will beat the dedicated shooting unit in close combat. So…

 Vandire651 wrote:
the cost I got was by getting the price for a basic 10 sister celestian squad, getting the price of powerswords from the space marine codex, vanguard veteran, then I got the price of the melta from the adepta sororitas codex, this added up to 290. granted I got the price of artificer armour by copying the price of the power sword, but that is also inclueded the price of master crafting the meltas and I had to start from somewhere. this added up to a grand total of 340 points.

In other word, just hokus pokus costing rather than trying to get a balanced cost.
No surprise it does not work.

 Vandire651 wrote:
you also have to find a way to get your super unit of celestians to the front lines and able to charge

Do you mean like they could add new vehicles at the same time they change the Celestians?

 Vandire651 wrote:
the reason why i am only uses meltas is due to any other option being a waste of points.

Why do you assume no bolters? Why do you assume 10-women squads?
10 meltas seems quite a bit overkill to me. How often do you want to shoot 10 melta at the same target…

 Vandire651 wrote:
flamers are another option but they also lack the strength and ap needed and changes charging from extremely improbable to a flat out impossibility

Yeah, the way the charge rules are written make this very hard but it sucks…

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Vandire651 wrote:
I was doing so to show how an equel amount of points spent on either a dedicated assault unit or a dedicated shooting unit(plasma guns and laz cannons would make short work of celestians and do it for a much lower point cost) would out compete celestians if you made them a jack of all trades.

So, you are saying that dedicated assault unit will beat a mixed unit in close combat and a dedicated shooting unit will beat a mixed unit in a shooting contest. Yeah, but the mixed unit will beat the close combat unit in shooting, and will beat the dedicated shooting unit in close combat. So…

 Vandire651 wrote:
the cost I got was by getting the price for a basic 10 sister celestian squad, getting the price of powerswords from the space marine codex, vanguard veteran, then I got the price of the melta from the adepta sororitas codex, this added up to 290. granted I got the price of artificer armour by copying the price of the power sword, but that is also inclueded the price of master crafting the meltas and I had to start from somewhere. this added up to a grand total of 340 points.

In other word, just hokus pokus costing rather than trying to get a balanced cost.
No surprise it does not work.

 Vandire651 wrote:
you also have to find a way to get your super unit of celestians to the front lines and able to charge

Do you mean like they could add new vehicles at the same time they change the Celestians?

 Vandire651 wrote:
the reason why i am only uses meltas is due to any other option being a waste of points.

Why do you assume no bolters? Why do you assume 10-women squads?
10 meltas seems quite a bit overkill to me. How often do you want to shoot 10 melta at the same target…

 Vandire651 wrote:
flamers are another option but they also lack the strength and ap needed and changes charging from extremely improbable to a flat out impossibility

Yeah, the way the charge rules are written make this very hard but it sucks…

if i want to kill a dedicated assault unit at range I do so with a dedicated shooting unit, vice versa for dealing with a dedicated shooting unit. a mixed role unit will be shoot off the board by a dedicated shooting unit and assaulted to death by a dedicated assault unit which is designed to withstand a greater amount of shooting by a dedicated shooting unit then a mixed unit could ever hope to put out. in other words if i want to deal damage at range, I do it with a unit meant specifically for shooting, same for assault, I do not a unit meant to do both in a half competent manner

i agree that the point costing is a tad hockus pocus, but i had to start from somewhere and games workshop tends to keep the point cost for upgrades similar from codex to codex. also a 5 man squad of celestians with meltas costs 120 points at the current pricing, a dominion squad with 5 meltas costs 115. this means that dominions are not only cheaper but also more able to do their role due to having the scout rule. this means while dominions can deploy after the enemy deploys and do a turn 1 alpha strike with a 12 inch scout, 6 inch move, 6 inch deploy from transport and 12 inch shooting, totaling a 36 threat range, the celestians are stuck with a 24 inch threat range, at which point they are shoot off the board due to not getting in range of the opponent fast enough to shoot them first turn and the opponent focusing them down due to the threat they represent.

in other words they are sub standard dominions except they have power swords, which they will never use effectively due to lack of an assault vehicle, wiping out to many enemy models with their master crafted meltas/flamers meaning they can't make the charge and finally no one being stupid enough to charge them except with a dedicated assault unit which would crump them. their only value is their artificer armour, everything else they either cannot do or dominions do it better

regarding the use of bolters, standard bolters are rapid fire meaning they can't charge after shooting, storm bolters are better, but with a total of 20 shoots per 10 sister celestian squads, they will either do enough damage to hordes to make you unable to make the charge, or you are dealing with elites like termenators, in which case meltas are better. meltas also have greater versetility in being able to take care of tanks.



if I want a 5 sister squad with meltas I will go with dominions, dominions are cheaper and more focused to the role with the scout rule

I really feel like rather than trying to see if we could make this work and how, you are 100% focusing on “Let's imagine one specific version and show how it can never be useful”…