Is Eternal Warrior outdated?

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**vipoid**

deviantduck wrote:
I miss when the tallest unit on the table was a dreadnought. Most of the complaints in this thread seem to be coming from people who think wraithknights shouldn't be killed by anything.

If you're referring to me, no I don't think the WK shouldn't be killed by anything. I don't even think the bloody thing should be in the game.

However, since it is (along with many other GCs and such), it just seems strange that a minute character can be more resilient to ID than a 3-story monster.

**Ashiraya**

I thought it was kind of like how if you shoot 12 Gretchin with a Volcano Cannon, ~2 of those (on average) will be able to just walk it off.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Bobthehero wrote:
Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

Canoness says hi. She can get a 4++, but… since she can't do anything useful, that's just a way to waste more points.

**AlmightyWalrus**

Peregrine wrote:
deviantduck wrote:
In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it.

This is stupid fluff that has no place in the game.

No, it isn't.

Yay for definitive statement!

**Furyou Miko**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

Canoness says hi. She can get a 4++, but… since she can't do anything useful, that's just a way to waste more points.

Canoness can get Eternal Warrior though, so she's not really relevant to the gakky-because-lack-EW debate.

**vipoid**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Bobthehero wrote:
Shittiest HQ 2k16, they get instant-deathed by litteraly everything people spam nowadays, have no way whatsoever to get EW or decent invulnerable, there's a reason they're cheap.

Canoness says hi. She can get a 4++, but… since she can't do anything useful, that's just a way to waste more points.

Canoness can get Eternal Warrior though, so she's not really relevant to the gakky-because-lack-EW debate.

77

Indeed, you'll have to wait for the 'gakky for a lot of other reasons' debate.

**Ubl1k**

EW is cool because it makes gameplay still doable with all the buttloads of D-weapons around anything that wasnt GMC or superheavy would be useless

**vipoid**

Ubl1k wrote:
EW is cool because it makes gameplay still doable with all the buttloads of D-weapons around anything that wasnt GMC or superheavy would be useless

Given that EW doesn't protect you from D-weapons, I don't follow your meaning here.

**Bharring**

The effect isn't always crazy.

But in some cases, it makes sense.

So you get some nasty ID weapon that need only nick the body to kill the body. Scary stuff.

You're a Librarian with that Force Axe. If you can get a wound on a Carnifex, you don't care how strong he is. You kill it.

So lets take that Force Axe, and kill Asurmen. Or rather the body of the person most recently consumed by Asurmen. So, your Force effect ensures the corpse is dead. How is that supposed to stop Asurmen?

The axe does hurt Asurmen, just like any Power Axe. If you do enough damage, you can still stop him. But you can't kill him. If Eldar can recover him, someone else will sacrifice themselves. Now there is a new corpse in the armor.

Why would killing the corpse kill the armor?

There is a lot of stupid in this game (WKs, S D, etc), but a Force weapon not killing a Phoenix Lord isn't that strange.

(Or imbalanced - look at their points.)

**ALEXisAWESOME**

Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

**vipoid**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

What about other ID effects?

**Bharring**

They have the same effect they have on a Sentinal.

**Vaktathi**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

I always heard it as *severing* the connection to the Warp-presence, disconnecting the physical body from the "soul" (which is why daemons aren't permanently killed by such weapons and can return later after banishment), in which case, I could see a force weapon working there.

**vipoid**

Bharring wrote:
They have the same effect they have on a Sentinal.

Well, a meltagun can ID a sentinel.

**Bharring**

Fluffwise, a Phoenix Lord is more durable than a Sentinal.

Mechanics-wise, a Sentinal didn't pay 200+ points for a 3W T4 EW.

**vipoid**

Bharring wrote:
Fluffwise, a Phoenix Lord is more durable than a Sentinal.

Mechanics-wise, a Sentinal didn't pay 200+ points for a 3W T4 EW.

What's your point exactly?

A SM player pays 240+pts for a Land Raider, but that's still susceptible to ID and, unlike a Phoenix Lord, can't hide in a squad.

**Bharring**

Is your point that a LR is no more durable than t4 W . 2+4++? Asurmen costs about the same as an LR. A TL troop weapon and some S5 in CC.

A 5-man Termie squad is cheaper, more durable, and also can't be 1-shot.

Smashbane is annoying, but at least he's good at more than just dueling. And is much more durable for about the same points.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Well Land Raiders aren't durable for the price, so it could be argued how 2+ EW is pretty durable compared to the Land Raider.

I won't argue, though, that any of the Phoenix Lords are SUPER durable.

Overall EW just needs to be more available, or just actually improve the DE HQ choices.

**Bobthehero**

EW needs to well, die.

**Dozer Blades**

It will never happen.

**ALEXisAWESOME**

vipoid wrote:
ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Force Weapons works by the user channeling their mind and warp energy into the opponents mind to extinguish it. A Phoenix Lord has a mind full of hundreds, perhaps thousands of Eldar. It would make no sense if a Force Weapon could over power that many Eldar minds.

What about other ID effects?

While I've already advocated that EW has been over sprinkled as a game mechanic rather than it's original purpose of fluff justification but in the case of the Phoenix Lords it's perfectly justified. EW is the physical manifestation of plot armour. A Phoenix Lord within the setting of 40k cannot be utterly destroyed, not because they are immortal, but because they are fated to be present at the final war between Chaos and Mortals. On the other hand, despite being Demi-gods of battle a Melta shot would likely destroy their armour, releasing the soul inside. So the Eternal Warrior rule reprsents something happening that otherwise softens the blow to not be an insta-kill.

I always heard it as *severing* the connection to the Warp-presence, disconnecting the physical body from the "soul" (which is why daemons aren't permanently killed by such weapons and can return later after banishment), in which case, I could see a force weapon working there.

The Eisenhorn book goes into detail about the production of Force Weapons, at the the ones Eisenhorn used worked by momentarily enhancing his Psychic Potential so he could use his mind to destroy the opponent. He used this on a Daemonhost and due to a unusually powerful Psychic Catalyst he'd found he was able to completely obliterate the Daemon, killing it permanently.

Some characters deserve Eternal Warrior, the problem being some people who deserve it have missed out and some people who don't can get it in spades.

**Bharring**

Vipod,
I think we agree on our general tastes (small random chance for ker-splat? Things not being nigh invincible?), but not on the specifics.

EW is a little weird. Smashbane and Biomancy always felt wrong that way. I just think that one place it actually makes sense is a PL. Perhaps because I love mine a bit too much.

**vipoid**

ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

While I've already advocated that EW has been over sprinkled as a game mechanic rather than it's original purpose of fluff justification but in the case of the Phoenix Lords it's perfectly justified. EW is the physical manifestation of plot armour. A Phoenix Lord within the setting of 40k cannot be utterly destroyed, not because they are immortal, but because they are fated to be present at the final war between Chaos and Mortals. On the other hand, despite being Demi-gods of battle a Melta shot would likely destroy their armour, releasing the soul inside. So the Eternal Warrior rule reprsents something happening that otherwise softens the blow to not be an insta-kill.

With regard to this though, isn't it something that perhaps shouldn't be represented in individual battles? In the same way that Archons, haemonculi and such are effectively immortal because they can be regenerated - but obviously this doesn't happen fast enough to help them in a battle.

(This is an honest question as I know next to nothing about Phoenix Lords.)

Bharring wrote:
Is your point that a LR is no more durable than t4 W . 2+4++? Asurmen costs about the same as an LR. A TL troop weapon and some S5 in CC.

No - my point is that the cost of a unit shouldn't be enough to get it EW, unless you say that *every* unit over a certain point cost gains EW.

Bharring wrote:

I think we agree on our general tastes (small random chance for ker-splat? Things not being nigh invincible?), but not on the specifics.

Quite possibly. If nothing else, I really dislike the uneven and arbitrary distribution of EW. But, more than that, it just feels weird when present alongside gargantuan creatures without EW.

Bharring wrote:

EW is a little weird. Smashbane and Biomancy always felt wrong that way. I just think that one place it actually makes sense is a PL. Perhaps because I love mine a bit too much.

Well, on that front, I'm always kinda irritated when Special Characters are given all the best rules and wargear. So, that probably doesn't help.

**Bharring**

It does help when you read more into PLs and think about Force and other non-double-T IDs, but EW helping against Orbital Bombardments is odd.

By the points argument, I was just trying g to separate fluff from tabletop. I wasn't clear, and you were talking fluff.

**GoliothOnline**

Honestly, EW to me is outdated and archaic by existence. Rules wise it's interesting on paper, but when used it's rather pointless when you consider the amount of StrD weapons in the game these days.

If I were to personally change EW, It would be to have Destroyer weapons only cause singular wounds against Models with EW. Right now any forms of StrD can take a 300+ EW model and vaporize it without thought. If it were actually scary and held presence on the board again, it would make costly units and models there in, more prominent.

How often do we see Abaddon in games these days? Probably never. Probably because hes a melee beatstick that cant get into melee without a dedicated LR and retinue of Chaos terminators so you're looking at 350+ points on top of his already 265 point base cost. 615 points for a model that is supposed to get up in your grill and beat your face in isn't scary when it dies to a single Str D weapon.

Maybe even give the EW model 2++ at all times and FNP4+++ that isn't ignored by ID nor double toughness ignoring high yeild weaponry.

There are a lot of things that can be done to make models with EW "Good" but right now it's usually just an over costed gimmick and tax on already expensive Models.

**Bharring**

Or perhaps ID and Explodes! should be a bigger threat to GMCs and SHVs?

**GoliothOnline**

I had a conversation with one of my best friends the other day, about how GMCs and SHWs function when fighting things like Infantry and how they interact with regular Walkers / Vehicles / MCs.

Right now you can't Stomp on another GMC or SHV, they're too big and basically immune to each other's massive fat-fest shenanigans. I dont see why we cant assume that a MC would be large enough a threat to also be immune if not at least avoid being stepped on by a giant freaking robot or GMC. Hell, with the new Tau GMC I have a FW Great Unclean One that is apparently stompable... Makes pretty good sense....

SHVs and SHW + GMCs have too much going for them in terms of free wound causing effects. They should be immune to each others Str D weapons imo and it should simply be str 10 against one another. Against MCs and Walkers + Tank models, Stomps should be ineffective.

**Lukash_**

I don't really have a problem with Eternal Warrior, but I'm not too much of a fan of being able to buy it for stuff. Smashbane is one of my least favorite things about 40K, though that may have more to do with the rules for bikes than EW...

**MechaEmperor7000**

deviantduck wrote:
I miss when the tallest unit on the table was a dreadnought. Most of the complaints in this thread seem to be coming from people who think wraithknights shouldn't be killed by anything. In the fluff, Angron takes a lascanon to his bare chest and ignores it. These are the kinds of things EW is there to represent.

I agree. When this was a skirmish game it made sense. Ever since this became Epic 40k 2.0, some of the rules have gotten...silly.

**Dozer Blades**

When a Primarch can be insta gibbed by SD you know EW can only do so much for you versus certain armies... And people roll 6s. You are investing a lot of points in a unit that can be potentially wiped out with one roll of a dice and it happens.

If you remember the previous SW codex there is no current codex that hands out as much EW. It's still really good but not as good now.