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Ok, I need another army like I need a hole in the head but I really like the Skitarii. I figure I can just do a small-ish force and ally them with my Marines or Guard, or even go Dark Mechanicum and use them with my CSM.

I got the Skitarii box when it came out, but I've only assembled a couple of them so far. Are the Vanguard or Rangers better? One of the two is what I envision forming the core of my force since I like them and they seem like they would be cool to paint.

Now, how about the Start Collecting! box? It seems like a great value, but is the Dominus something I'll want more than one of? IE should I stop it at one box or go for 2?

My FLGS has a built and primed Onager for like $40 or something (Canadian retail is $79) is that something I should bother picking up, or will I just need the one from the box? How about the Ironstrider walker?

Vanguard are probably better than rangers, but personally I found rangers heads to be too cool looking to pass up.

The box is an excellent value, even if you just want another Onager I would think its worth it to get two. Onagers are super cool, and having three would give you lots of modeling, and playing options. So two of the start collecting boxes, and the used one would be a very solid start to the army.

Rangers tend to be better as they have a higher range (30"), ap4 and precision shots.

I would say pick a Skitarii formation you like the look and feel of, and build to that. For me, it's the War Convocation, despite my not owning any Cult Mechanicum models, because some day I might and that formation looks awesome to play!

SJ

Rangers are better objective keepers, and Vanguard are better offensively. Use both.

I agree with Slayer-Fan, the rangers are good at picking things off, so let them capture objective whilst they're at it. As for the vanguard, despite their 18" range, these things make my gaunt hordes and ork boy mobs melt if not previously dealt with.

So yeah, use both.

In smaller point battles the Vanguard are the best unit the whole codex has. They can kill any unit aside from vehicles. I've found 2-3 squads is the most you can practically run though, because of theyre short range. Even without plasma, a squad of 10 vanguard will kill a dreadknight easily. Make one squad your warlord and give them plasma to reroll the ones. My most favorite units were the dagoons and vangaurd, dagoons can hit str 8 on the charge and so are great anti tank. If you wanted to run only vangaurd, I started to put them in drop pods or in with greyknights for gate of infinity.


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Although they fire str 3 shots, they fire 3 of them and with docterines will never miss. also six's are double woulds on ANYTHING, so with 30 shots, about 5 sixes so 10 wounds easily

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Ok, I need another army like I need a hole in the head but I really like the Skitarii. I figure I can just do a small-ish force and ally them with my Marines or Guard, or even go Dark Mechanicum and use them with my CSM.

I got the Skitarii box when it came out, but I've only assembled a couple of them so far. Are the Vanguard or Rangers better? One of the two is what I envision forming the core of my force since I like them and they seem like they would be cool to paint.

Now, how about the Start Collecting! box? It seems like a great value, but is the Dominus something I'll want more than one of? IE should I stop it at one box or go for 2?

My FLGS has a built and primed Onager for like $40 or something (Canadian retail is $79) is that something I should bother picking up, or will I just need the one from the box? How about the Ironstrider walker?

If you're JUST wanting to do the "Start Collecting" force, it's only ever a single Onager.

Now, something you might want to do? Ask them to open up all of the Start Collecting boxes. There are effectively two different formations, one featuring Rangers and one featuring Vanguard. It's worthwhile to have access to both--and they're fun little bits to have anyways, as you can then run an "Assaulty" force, with everyone running short ranged weaponry(Vanguard) and another that is dedicated for objective holding(Rangers).

I have both rangers and vanguard. I have to say my rangers never do much of anything. The vanguard however are always killing well above their points level.

The armorbane sniper is a terrible gun, I would not recommend assembling them. The arcrifle is much more point efficient and is much better at popping tanks of all AV.

Plasma does tend to be get expensive being 30pts each but with doctrines you are rerolling to hit based on BS alone for 2 turns. So the PE is nice from the warlord in a skitarii maniple, but its not mandatory.

The Dragoons are great, very mobile and very versatile. the snipers are quite good, as are the lances. They are great for blowing up tanks but since they lack AP they can be risky in other combats. The ironstriders on the other hand are more expensive...have lower WS, fewer attacks, and do not have built in cover.

 Tenzilla wrote:
I have both rangers and vanguard. I have to say my rangers never do much of anything. The vanguard however are always killing well above their points level.

Well yeah, of course the Vanguard are always killing well above their points level.

They're priced at an obscenely low price point and with their Rad-Carbines' special rules? They're hell on wheels for anything organic.

The armorbane sniper is a terrible gun, I would not recommend assembling them. The arcrifle is much more point efficient and is much better at popping tanks of all AV.

I would recommend the Transauranic Arqeubus. Units of Rangers camped in your backfield with them on objectives can be hell for any army that has armor. They're rolling 2D6 for armor penetration with a fairly high AP weapon that counts as always being S4.

Plasma does tend to be get expensive being 30pts each but with doctrines you are rerolling to hit based on BS alone for 2 turns. So the PE is nice from the warlord in a skitarii maniple, but its not mandatory.

There's also terrain to take into account. Manufactorums give a nice little bonus to Plasma weapons.

The Dragoons are great, very mobile and very versatile. the snipers are quite good, as are the lances. They are great for blowing up tanks but since they lack AP they can be risky in other combats. The ironstriders on the other hand are more expensive...have lower WS, fewer attacks, and do not have built in cover.

Ironstriders aren't meant to be getting into CC. Their job is to harass with gunfire.

Ironstriders with Cognis Autocannons are a nasty surprise for anyone hiding characters in squads.

Yea but at 50 dollars per model you definitely get way more bang for your buck out of dragoons then ironstriders. Autocanons suck in this edition and even cognis won't help change that fact. Don't forget that the dragoons also come with a cover save.

The arqeubus is rubish against armor, no idea why Kan is advocating it as anti armor. Not when you have rapid fire haywire guns and triple shooting plasma. Skitarii have much better answers to armor then that thing and even as anti infantry it's not amazing, with 2 per 5 man camper squad you'll get a couple hits each turn barring poor rolls, but due to being a sniper weapon your only forcing a single cover save a turn, neat bud hardly that much of a harassment unit.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Rangers tend to be better as they have a higher range (30"), ap4 and precision shots.

vanguard are better in an allied army because drop pods negate their lack of range and the ignores cover is sickeningly strong on top of their rapid fire

Suggesting allied drop pods shouldn't be the deciding factor though. It's clearly strong, heck even rhinos help but it isn't the end all either. Certain armies will ruin drop podding vanguard, to name two off the top of my head: Most tau armies, especially one sporting the dreaded drone network with a nearby Ethereal and also null deploying DE/Eldar using scalpel squadrons. I like rangers longer range and s4 ap4 because it mulches things like drones and firewarrior equivalents, precision shots lets you force lookout sirs on leadership characters as well.

I think the best answer is to find a mix of both vanguard and rangers, they each work better when supported by the other.

I run Skitarii and Admech and nothing else so I can weigh in here.

The Vanguard are the way to go. The plasma and arc rifles more than make their points back and if you dont have the points for them, the regular guns shred just about anything. Making a terminator squad take 10-15 saves is just insane from a 10 man squad. The Rad Poisoning is nuts.

Dragoons are excellent. They have an effective charge range of 15 inches with dunestrider and make that 24 if you moved earlier. I almost always get a 1st or 2nd turn charge. They are bar none some of the best anti transport/light armor in the game. Stupidly fast and the taser weapons generating extra s8 hits on the charge is just nasty. They can even pick apart AV14. Even if they get shot to pieces the first turn their gun lines wasted a lot of fire on a small point unit. I run them in squads of 3.

The dunecrawlers are nasty too. Surprisingly durable and if the Dominus is following them then its lights out. Give them IWND with the manipulator and put them in a squad of 2-3 for that sweet sweet invul. All of the guns are good. The Phosphor blaster and Eradicaiton beamer for hordes (tanks if you ever get close) and the Neutron laser for Armor. The Icarus Array will make short work of most flyers in the game.

After those units the usefullness of the rest of their codex drops off. Although I have had success with the Infiltrators. The aura combined with outflank/infiltrate makes them good at rear line harrasment. Plus their guns even at S2 force a lot of saves.

Interesting, since most of their other units I don't care for at all (except for Kataphrons.) Ruststalkers, Electro-Priests and the like simply don't appeal to me whatsoever, so it's nice to know I wouldn't have to use them to have a decent army.

I have yet to be disappointed by my infiltrators. with 5 pistol shots each and taser weapons, 4 attacks on the charge. I use the zealot relic for the rerolls on the charge, and they can really put out a ton of wounds. Just try to avoid S6 models.

 Lord Corellia wrote:
Interesting, since most of their other units I don't care for at all (except for Kataphrons.) Ruststalkers, Electro-Priests and the like simply don't appeal to me whatsoever, so it's nice to know I wouldn't have to use them to have a decent army.

Whoa whoa, I thought you were talking about JUST skitarii. Admech is another animal. Kastelans, Kataphrons and the Dominus are all absolutely amazing. Dont bother with the priests unless you ally in some pods.

IF you are thinking cult mech as well, the Kataphron Destroyers are amazing. They are HUGE fire magents, but they can really dish out the hurt. I usually stick my dominus in with them and put him out front to tank wounds and heal himself.

Also the cohort cybernetica formation....2 Robot units with a Dominus.....amazing.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea but at 50 dollars per model you definitely get way more bang for your buck out of dragoons then ironstriders. Autocanons suck in this edition and even cognis won't help change that fact. Don't forget that the dragoons also come with a cover save.

"Autocannons suck in this edition"? We must be playing entirely different games then, because Autocannons are far from sucking in this edition.

Autocannons are considered one of the better non-Grav heavy weapon options. They have a relatively high ROF, decent Strength, and decent AP.
Cognis as well is something that comes into play not when we're talking about simply firing the weapon, but when we're talking about firing at things like FMCs, Flyers, or units that have been Invis'd or other things only allowing Snap Shots.

The arqeubus is rubish against armor, no idea why Kan is advocating it as anti armor.

Because rolling 2D6 for Armor Penetration is actually pretty good when we're talking about a 60" range on the weapon in question...?

The first time I played with my Skitarii against Khorne Daemonkin, I smoked two Land Raiders with 2 squads of Rangers with 2x Transauranic Arqeubi in as many turns. Popped one LR on turn one, popped a second on turn two. Forced his Terminators to walk across the board, then started using them to pop his Helbrutes.

Could I have done the same thing with Arc Rifles? Sure--but then I would have been within a reasonable charge range.

Since that first game, I don't leave home without multiple units of Rangers toting Arqeubi.
Are they expensive? Yes. But they have a HUGE impact on the game when you don't think of them as simple snipers.

Not when you have rapid fire haywire guns and triple shooting plasma.

Triple shooting Plasma Calivers with an 18" range and Arc Rifles with a 24" range. Oh man!

Try using those Arc Rifles against MCs and see how well they work.

Skitarii have much better answers to armor then that thing and even as anti infantry it's not amazing, with 2 per 5 man camper squad you'll get a couple hits each turn barring poor rolls, but due to being a sniper weapon your only forcing a single cover save a turn, neat bud hardly that much of a harassment unit.

A Cover save at -1, because why would you be taking anything but an Omnispex?

Most likely though, it's at a -2 for Luminagen and Omnispex--because your Vanguard SHOULD be toting a Luminagen weapon on your Alpha to ensure that they can remove two points of Cover.

 Kanluwen wrote:

The first time I played with my Skitarii against Khorne Daemonkin, I smoked two Land Raiders with 2 squads of Rangers with 2x Transauranic Arqeubi in as many turns. Popped one LR on turn one, popped a second on turn two. Forced his Terminators to walk across the board, then started using them to pop his Helbrutes.

Could I have done the same thing with Arc Rifles? Sure--but then I would have been within a reasonable charge range.

Since that first game, I don't leave home without multiple units of Rangers toting Arqeubi.
Are they expensive? Yes. But they have a HUGE impact on the game when you don't think of them as simple snipers.

The Arquebus is not very good....You seem to have had amazing luck with them but it cannot be counted on.

I would like to point out how improbable this is....that means you hit said landraiders with all 4 shots each turn, and rolled well above average 8 times in a row....and they either got no cover...or failed every save.

Average rolls for one puts it at glancing AV11.

At AP 3 it will never explode an vehicle, meaning you need several of them to reliably kill a light vehicle.

Against AV11 a plasma caliver does 3 times the hull points per turn on average rolls.

And if there are no tanks to shoot at? They cause a wound 50% of the time...for a 25pt upgrade. They are far and away the worst weapon option.

60" range is the only thing it has going for it.

 Tenzilla wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

The first time I played with my Skitarii against Khorne Daemonkin, I smoked two Land Raiders with 2 squads of Rangers with 2x Transauranic Arqeubi in as many turns. Popped one LR on turn one, popped a second on turn two. Forced his Terminators to walk across the board, then started using them to pop his Helbrutes.

Could I have done the same thing with Arc Rifles? Sure--but then I would have been within a reasonable charge range.

Since that first game, I don't leave home without multiple units of Rangers toting Arqeubi.
Are they expensive? Yes. But they have a HUGE impact on the game when you don't think of them as simple snipers.

The Arquebus is not very good....You seem to have had amazing luck with them but it cannot be counted on.

I would like to point out how improbable this is....that means you hit said landraiders with all 4 shots each turn, and rolled well above average 8 times in a row....and they either got no cover...or failed every save.

Vehicles only get cover saves when 25% obscured. An Omnispex in a squad immediately removes a point of that Cover.

In order to Glance a Land Raider, you're needing to roll 2 4's with an Arqeubus.
S4+4+4=12; Glance.

Anything higher than 4s is a Penetrating Hit, even on a bloody Land Raider.

Anything that isn't a Land Raider or a Super Heavy vehicle is going to be losing Hull Points easier to that kind of firepower.

Average rolls for one puts it at glancing AV11.

At AP 3 it will never explode an vehicle, meaning you need several of them to reliably kill a light vehicle.

At AP3 with you rolling 2D6 for Armor Penetration, you're needing at minimum a trio of them to "reliably kill" most vehicles in a single turn when paired with the Doctrina Imperatives allowing for you to boost up your BS.

Against AV11 a plasma caliver does 3 times the hull points per turn on average rolls.

Yeah, and that Plasma Caliver costs 5 more points and has roughly a third of the range of the Arquebus.

The Plasma Caliver is certainly a more attractive option on Vanguard...but Vanguard have a hugely different role to play in a Skitarii army than Rangers.

Rangers are outfitted with a 30" Rapid Fire, Precision Shot weapon that is downright scary when used correctly. Between Galvanic Rifles and a Transauranic Arqeubus trio in a 10 man squad of Rangers with an Omnispex, you can rest assured that you WILL be getting at least one or two Precision Shots a turn allowing you to pick off Heavy Weapons or specific models within a unit.

Vanguard are outfitted with an 18" Assault 3 weapon that automatically Wounds a target(regardless of Toughness) on rolls of 6's. A trio of Plasma Calivers is HIGHLY effective within this unit for that reason, coupled with the low points cost of Vanguard to begin with and the fact that they need to be within that 18" bracket to be effective to begin with.


And then, of course, there's Arc weapons--which only exist to provide Haywire to the Skitarii. You want to talk about a situation where "if they have no tanks" really messing you up, then it applies to Arc weapons as well.

And if there are no tanks to shoot at? They cause a wound 50% of the time...for a 25pt upgrade. They are far and away the worst weapon option.

That's only because of the fact that non-vehicles aren't affected by Armourbane. All it takes is one simple change to the wording("Armourbane means you roll 2D6 for Armor Penetration rolls and To Wound rolls against non-vehicle models") and they become a hell of a lot more viable.

Armourbane, as it exists now, was clearly intended to synergize with something like Fleshbane in many options. Why the two were not placed together? I do not know.

60" range is the only thing it has going for it.

Well that and the whole y'know...2D6 for armor penetration.

Land raiders are AV 14 all around.....meaning you need a roll of 10 on 2 dice which is roughly a 15% chance of doing so...8 times in a row after hitting with every single shot...I call BS on you popping 2 land raiders in 2 turns with only 4 arquebus. Without taking hitting into effect the odds are less than 1/100th of a percent of that happening. And like I said...they can never one shot any vehicle forcing you to take several per unit in hopes of possibly glancing something to death over the course of several turns.




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Arc rifles are still s6 ap5 they are hardly useless against non vehicle targets. Meaning against MEQs they still have a 55% chance to cause an unsaved wound and the arquebus is still at 50%. Not to mention the ability to rapid fire.

 Tenzilla wrote:
Land raiders are AV 14 all around.....meaning you need a roll of 10 on 2 dice which is roughly a 15% chance of doing so...

Yeah I'm currently on painkillers for a foot injury; chill out. I posted the wrong numbers.

Realistically though, rolling a 10 on 2D6 with multiple Arqeubus firing a turn isn't as hard as you make it out to be.

8 times in a row after hitting with every single shot...I call BS on you popping 2 land raiders in 2 turns with only 4 arquebus.

All four fired at one on turn one, with the +3 BS -2 WS Doctrina Imperative active; popped it.
All four fired at one on turn two, with +2 BS -2WS Doctrina Imperative active; popped it.

Without taking hitting into effect the odds are less than 1/100th of a percent of that happening. And like I said...they can never one shot any vehicle forcing you to take several per unit in hopes of possibly glancing something to death over the course of several turns.

"Possibly glancing something to death over the course of several turns" isn't that hard when you're rolling 2D6 for armor penetration.

Arc rifles are still s6 ap5 they are hardly useless against non vehicle targets. Meaning against MEQs they still have a 55% chance to cause an unsaved wound and the arquebus is still at 50%. Not to mention the ability to rapid fire.

Oh boy, two shots rather than one!

Arc Rifles are 24" to begin with, meaning you need to be within 12" to get that extra shot. So worth it against infantry.

Pain killers or not I'm just telling you the mathematical odds...

I said you seem to have had good luck with them. But as I stated...without doing the probability of hitting and rerolls it's you have less than 1/100th of a percent chance to roll 10+ with 2 dice 8 times in a row....that's math....idk how you are possibly trying to argue against it.

 Tenzilla wrote:
Pain killers or not I'm just telling you the mathematical odds...

I said you seem to have had good luck with them. But as I stated...without doing the probability of hitting and rerolls it's you have less than 1/100th of a percent chance to roll 10+ with 2 dice 8 times in a row....that's math....idk how you are possibly trying to argue against it.

Not arguing the math, simply stating that Arqeubi have a place in the Skitarii army. You're the one throwing around math like it's going out of style while also touting the Arc Rifle and Plasma Calivers as "Skitarii anti-vehicle solutions".

Playing Skitarii is you playing an army where everything has to work in perfect synchronization(quite fittingly)--and where the first time someone plays against them, some of their meaner tricks(i.e. Arqeubi, Arc Rifles, and Plasma Calivers) really stick out in the opponent's mind when they plan a list for another game.

I HIGHLY suggest people ignore the math and simply try out all the options. It's not like you can't remove arms later if you want to.

"I HIGHLY suggest people ignore the math"

By all means do this if you enjoy losing. This quite possibly has to be the silliest advice I've ever read on here.

I have 3 rangers with arqebus. I would trade them for 3 rangers with plasma or arc in a heartbeat. And when I field them outside of the war convocation I proxy them as standard galvanic rifles. Im just trying to save someone the trouble. The real issue is the AP 3. If they had the ability to actually explode a vehicle it would be a different story. But having to roll above average just to glance is a drawback.

The average roll of 2 dice is 7, the str of the gun is 4 meaning an average roll is 11. Say you're shooting at...a rhino. The ranger with the arqebus is 36 pts...more expensive than the rhino already. And you will never explode it. You need a minimum of 3 shots to pop that simple rhino. And you need more and more shots the more HPs and as the AV increases.

 Tenzilla wrote:
I have 3 rangers with arqebus. I would trade them for 3 rangers with plasma or arc in a heartbeat. And when I field them outside of the war convocation I proxy them as standard galvanic rifles. Im just trying to save someone the trouble. The real issue is the AP 3. If they had the ability to actually explode a vehicle it would be a different story. But having to roll above average just to glance is a drawback.

The real issue isn't the AP3 by itself.

It's that Sniper weapons need to have their "To Wound roll of 6s count as AP2" also apply to AP rolls.
It's that Armourbane, as a USR, is lackluster when dealing with anything but armor. Look at the fluff on most stuff with Armourbane. They're large, sold rounds that are designed to hole through armor. That kind of stuff is going to make a huge mess when targeting organics as well. Armourbane should ALWAYS be wounding on a 2+ as well or forcing multiple Wounds at a time.
It's that GW still doesn't understand their own game in that the high S, low AP weapons? They're generally garbage for taking out vehicles in an edition where you'd rather glance them to death.


With that off my chest...

The average roll of 2 dice is 7, the str of the gun is 4 meaning an average roll is 11. Say you're shooting at...a rhino. The ranger with the arqebus is 36 pts...more expensive than the rhino already. And you will never explode it. You need a minimum of 3 shots to pop that simple rhino. And you need more and more shots the more HPs and as the AV increases.

You've ignored my other point pretty well. A large factor of gameplay for 40k is board control. There comes a point where, unless you're fighting a BDC with tons of free Rhinos, people start to get gunshy about putting their vehicles out in the open when they know there's a 60" weapon with Armourbane lurking around.


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zerosignal wrote:
"I HIGHLY suggest people ignore the math"

And simply try all of the options.

Selective quoting is bad, mmkay?

By all means do this if you enjoy losing. This quite possibly has to be the silliest advice I've ever read on here.

No, the silliest advice is to tell people to only stick to what netlists bring.

Not every meta is full of tournament lists or WAAC try-hards. Some people actually (gasp!) play for fun.

I haven't ignored your point at all...with any understanding of the gun people won't be too gunshy of a few glancing hits. Especially when transports are meant to transport things around...get the cargo where it needs to be safely. Taking a few glancing hits while doubling your infantrys movement is a good trade off.


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Also forgive me. I didn't take rending into account. So there is a chance to explode vehicles.

 Tenzilla wrote:
I haven't ignored your point at all...with any understanding of the gun people won't be too gunshy of a few glancing hits. Especially when transports are meant to transport things around...get the cargo where it needs to be safely. Taking a few glancing hits while doubling your infantrys movement is a good trade off.

Taking a few glancing hits is one thing.
Having your transport shot out from under you at a 60" range is something else entirely.

Is it something that will commonly happen? No! And I'm not saying it's an automatic thing. But it CAN happen, and when you've done it to someone enough times they really start to try planning around that.

But that's why you, as the Skitarii player, also have to think ahead. You have an army-wide Scout move for your force, allowing you to position things in such a way that you can set up a nasty crossfire.

My personal favorite is units of Vanguard lurking with Arc Rifles in cover with Rangers toting Arqeubi locking down the other bit of fire lane. The opponent has to contend with short range AV or long range AV, but either way those transports are getting popped.

Also forgive me. I didn't take rending into account. So there is a chance to explode vehicles.

You misunderstood. That was my list of "issues" with the weapon.

RAW, there is no way for it to happen. The AP2 only comes into effect on "To Wound" rolls. That's why I wrote what I did. Sniper weapons don't Rend, they literally have their own thing where it states that "a To Wound roll of a 6 is resolved at AP2".