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Made in us
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Traditio wrote:
 motyak wrote:
And rule 1 of this site is be polite. That means not blanketing everyone who disagrees with you as tfg in an insulting and dismissive manner.


Currently, there apparently is a practice of fielding command squads, putting them on bikes, and then using the battle company rules to get that squad a free razorback that they can't even ride in.

That sounds an awful lot like "gaming the system" to me.

Is it a TFG practice? For the sake of rule 1, I'll abstain from rendering a judgment on the matter.

I disagree with your #2 change. Also I don't play SM at all so i don't gain any advantage at all from it.

How does that make me TFG?
   
Made in us
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CrownAxeI wrote:I disagree with your #2 change.


Why?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 08:44:23


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
CrownAxeI wrote:I disagree with your #2 change.


Why?

Answer my question "Am I TFG?" first and i will explain to you why i disagree with it.
   
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CrownAxe wrote:Answer my question "Am I TFG?" first and i will explain to you why i disagree with it.


I reserve judgment.
   
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Traditio wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:Answer my question "Am I TFG?" first and i will explain to you why i disagree with it.


I reserve judgment.

So how is a non-SM player letting SMs get one more free transport from their battle company exploiting the game to be TFG?
   
Made in us
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CrownAxe wrote:So how is a non-SM player letting SMs get one more free transport from their battle company exploiting the game to be TFG?


The practice itself is an exploitation. Even bothering to check the codex and the rulebook to determine whether the practice technically is even legal is a rules-lawyering, cheesy thing to do.

I do not, at this point in the conversation, which to claim that you, or any non-SM player who disagrees with rule 2, is TFG. I reserve my judgment in this case.

I do, nonetheless, wish to maintain that the practice itself is a gaming of the system.

Why do you disagree?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 08:57:01


 
   
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Because it's a pointless nerf. Letting a unit have the option to take a cheap-o transport doesn't do anything broken to the game. Outside of Battle-Company they are paying the points for it and its not hard to make room for the same exact transport in a FA slot. In Battle Company there are already like 10+ free transports, an 11th one doesn't mean crap.

And I again I gain no gaming benefit from this what so ever because I do not play SMs.
   
Made in us
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 CrownAxe wrote:
Because it's a pointless nerf. Letting a unit have the option to take a cheap-o transport doesn't do anything broken to the game. Outside of Battle-Company they are paying the points for it and its not hard to make room for the same exact transport in a FA slot. In Battle Company there are already like 10+ free transports, an 11th one doesn't mean crap.

And I again I gain no gaming benefit from this what so ever because I do not play SMs.


That's like saying that the wraithknight, retaining the exact rules it currently has and its current points cost, should be able to get 55 points worth of upgrades for free.

Because why the feth not? It's so completely OP and broken at this point that the extra 55 points of upgrades don't matter anyway.

Ultimately, that's your argument: "Eh, why the feth not? It doesn't make THAT much of a difference."

It doesn't.

But fact is, it remains a a rules-lawyering, cheesy and disrespectable practice, and such, ought to stop.

It's utterly ridiculous: "Hey, let's go for a ride on these bikes...lemme get the squad razorback ready which is dedicated to transport us around. We won't actually ride in it, but it can go do its own thing while we enjoy our motorcycle ride."

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 09:08:54


 
   
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Traditio wrote:
But fact is, it remains a a rules-lawyering, cheesy and disrespectable practice, and such, ought to stop.

This is a subjective opinion. Which is why you calling everyone names based on your subjectives opinions is extremely obnoxious.

And you're missing the point. What you are trying to nerf with #2 isn't OP or broken (so your WK analogy has nothing to do with my argument). You are just nerfing it because of your personal opinion on how you think the game should be played.
   
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The Dog-house

Traditio wrote:
 motyak wrote:
And rule 1 of this site is be polite. That means not blanketing everyone who disagrees with you as tfg in an insulting and dismissive manner.


Currently, there apparently is a practice of fielding command squads, putting them on bikes, and then using the battle company rules to get that squad a free razorback that they can't even ride in.


There is? Good thing I haven't noticed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Traditio wrote:


That's like saying that the wraithknight, retaining the exact rules it currently has and its current points cost, should be able to get 55 points worth of upgrades for free.


That's quite the straw man. An AV 11/11/10 HP3 vehicle with a TL-HB is very different from a Wraithknight.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 09:22:52


H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
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 Swampmist wrote:
I say leave the razorbacks off the free list entirely


I have a better idea add an individual point cost to all the formations and remove the "free transport" part altogether.



and make it "5 models for a Rhino, 10 for a drop pod." Then Make inertial guidance only reduce scatter if the pod would hit terrain (something a guidance system would actually account for) and I'd say most of the stuff is fine.


Totally unneeded


Oh, and give Templars a Detachment, because it's dumb that they don't have one.

This might just happen someday.

But and this is the major part NERF GRAVGUNS
Thats right this weapon is currently good vs vehicles, monsters, infantry and has an insane high rate of fire. These abominations really need a nerf.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 11:36:51


Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while 
   
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Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

 oldzoggy wrote:
But and this is the major part NERF GRAVGUNS
Thats right this weapon is currently good vs vehicles, monsters, infantry and has an insane high rate of fire. These abominations really need a nerf.

My proposed re-balancing for Grav:

1. Gravitation Rule: To-wound rolls are based off of a model's size class;
Infantry/Jump Infantry/Cavalry/Beasts - 5+
Bulky - 4+
Very Bulky - 3+
Monstrous Creature - 2+

In addition, against vehicles, Gravitation weapons cause a Shaken result on a 4+. If a 6 is rolled, the vehicle also loses a Hull Point.


2. Grav Gun - 24"/S* (see above)/ap2/Rapid Fire, Gravitation

Grav Cannon - 24"/S* (see above)/ap2/Salvo 3/4, Gravitation


Now the gun is still deadliest against MC's, making it the premier way for Imperials to deal with big gribbles, HOWEVER, it no longer is an automatic catch-all vacuum cleaner of everything that's got a 4+ or better save!!

There is now an actual decision to make regarding whether or not to bring Grav, because Plasma is still the overall supreme 'generalist' option. (can nuke MEQ's/TEQ's, MC's & works against light to medium vehicles)
On the other hand, Grav massively outperforms Plasma against a popular unit type (MC's & anything with Centurion/Obliterator in it's name or equivalent), and carries no risk of over-heating. However, it can no longer simply mow down everything that's sporting something more durable than a basic t-shirt! (which Marines have never needed help killing anyways...)

Also, the excessive RoF on the cannon is slightly dropped, since you really shouldn't be able to murder any MC with just a single God-tier weapon.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 12:23:10


 
   
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The Dog-house

Don't bikes count as very bulky for purposes of transport? Is that taken into account?

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
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Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
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Nope, they can take a transport no matter what, unlike every other unit that can take a jump pack and/or bike.

 Tamereth wrote:

We'll take your Magnus leak and raise you plastic sisters, take that internet.
 
   
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 Swampmist wrote:
Nope, they can take a transport no matter what, unlike every other unit that can take a jump pack and/or bike.


No I meant for the purposes of wounding with Grav. Bikes count as Very Bulky, was this intended?

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
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Traditio wrote:
This thread is basically a response to comments in the Simple Balance for Codex: Eldar.

In that thread, various recommendations were made for nerfs/points adjustments. I would like to enumerate what I think are basically fair nerfs for Codex: Space Marines.

1. A full battle company should only confer free rhinos.

Eh, Drop Pods too, I think.
I'd rather have the Gladius' free vehicle rule only come into effect with full squads, as in a squad only gets their transport free if they max out the squad size, but that's just me. Keep it the same, so Drop Pods and Razorbacks can still be taken, but the price of the extra guys should counteract most of the spam.
Again, this is untested, but I always run games like this, so take it as you will.

2. Command squads should not be able to purchase a dedicated transport if they elect to travel on bikes.

Again, it's an option. If you're already taking 10 free vehicles, why not an 11th?

3. Scout bikes should cost 21 ppm.

No-one takes them as is.

4. Space Marine bikers should cost 24 ppm.

I can't comment, I rarely use bikers myself. I'd rather have bikers as forced to a minimum size of five and leaving their cost as is, also preventing MSU spam.

5. The librarians should not be able to not use powers which reroll saves or cause teleportation.

And other factions can?
Hahaha, no. If everyone else has access to them, so do SM.

6. Devastator Centurions should cost 70 ppm.

No-one complains about the Centurions themselves. It's grav that gets people riled up. How often do you see people complain about HB Centurions?

7. Grav-guns should be rapidfire weapons with 24 inch range.

I could get behind this, though Salvo 2/2 would be preferred.

8. Grav cannons should be 48" range, heavy 1, blast weapons. In compensation for this, a grav cannon and amp should only cost 20 ppm.

Nope. Blast is not the way to go - plasma cannons prove this.
A Heavy 3 36" would be more ideal - fast enough to fire as a snapshot weapon, long enough to hit out, and fills in where the HB doesn't. Same cost, or 20 points.

9. The shield eternal should be 70 ppm.

Nope.
In the SW codex, Eternal Warrior was actually buyable, at 35 points, IIRC. Put on the 15 for the storm shield, and 5 for the situational Adamantium Will. 55/60 is where it should be costed. Certainly not 70.
Why do you hate it so much?

10. Drop pods should cost 45 ppm.

40 max.
It's still stationary, and leaves your guys stranded. If your objectives are spread out across the table, you'll struggle to move and capture them in a Maelstrom setting.

11. Storm shields should cost 15 ppm as an upgrade.

I can get behind this.

12: A buff, not a nerf, but one that's sorely needed: Flakk missiles should cost 5 ppm as an upgrade to missile launchers, not 10 ppm.

So much for
No. Enough is enough. No more buffs. Nerfs for everybody.

And yes, I agree with this. Gives MLs some better usage, although I'd still prefer a Stormtalon instead.

13. Sternguard veterans shall cost 24 ppm.

Why? They're in a good spot as is?

14. Assault centurions shall cost 70 ppm.

Again, I don't know about you, but I never hear ANYONE complaining about Assault Centurions. They're too slow without sinking a ton of points into them, by which point they're not undercosted.

15. Honor guard shall cost 28 ppm.

For a guy in 2+ armour and no invuln?
I think not.

Boom. Codex fixed.

It's really not.

The biggest issue with SM is grav, which is currently necessary until it doesn't need to be used as a crutch, and the free vehicles. You don't seem to want to get rid of free vehicles though.
On the other hand, SM could do with making certain units far more viable for taking - Assault Squads, Whirlwinds, Scout Bikers, LOTD, Captains (without Chapter Master) and even Tactical Marines.

However, I think other armies could do with a change before C:SM, but that's a different topic.


They/them

 
   
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I don't know why you argue with him, Smudge. He lives ina very odd meta.

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
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Traditio wrote:

*snip*
A windrider is, for all intents and purposes, a dire avenger.
*snip*


I just want to point out (because I don't see it anywhere yet) that a windrider is actually a guardian defender, not a dire avenger. So the point cost to get them jetbikes is 8 ppm, not 4. The difference being they can have a warlock leader and have leadership 8 instead of 9 (at a glance). Sorry, I know this is supposed to be an SM thread, but the second page was so loaded with Windrider stuff... and inaccurate at that!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 16:43:36


 
   
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Here is how I plan to get it in your skull why your fixes are terrible. You'll answer questions one at a time.
Here's the first question: are Plasma Cannons taken at a competitive level currently? Were they ever?

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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BossJakadakk wrote:I just want to point out (because I don't see it anywhere yet) that a windrider is actually a guardian defender, not a dire avenger. So the point cost to get them jetbikes is 8 ppm, not 4. The difference being they can have a warlock leader and have leadership 8 instead of 9 (at a glance). Sorry, I know this is supposed to be an SM thread, but the second page was so loaded with Windrider stuff... and inaccurate at that!


You are correct. Let me re-calculate:

Guardians should cost 10 ppm, as per the other thread.
We should assume that +2 armor is worth at least 4 ppm, on analogy with ork boys upgrading from 6+ armor to 'eavy armor for 4 ppm.
+10 for the bike.

24 ppm.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 19:27:00


 
   
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The Dog-house

Traditio wrote:
BossJakadakk wrote:I just want to point out (because I don't see it anywhere yet) that a windrider is actually a guardian defender, not a dire avenger. So the point cost to get them jetbikes is 8 ppm, not 4. The difference being they can have a warlock leader and have leadership 8 instead of 9 (at a glance). Sorry, I know this is supposed to be an SM thread, but the second page was so loaded with Windrider stuff... and inaccurate at that!


You are correct. Let me re-calculate:

Guardians should cost 10 ppm, as per the other thread.
We should assume that +2 armor is worth at least 4 ppm, on analogy with ork boys upgrading from 6+ armor to 'eavy armor for 4 ppm.
Mark of nurgle is 3 ppm.
The additional mobility and hammer of wrath is worth at least 3 ppm.
Plus twin-linked shuriken catapult, relentless, mobility beyond what a jumppack can confer, and the jink special rule.

The least that a windrider bike should cost is 22 ppm.


Have you ever considered the fact that your formulas for determining points are broken as feth? Mark of Nurgle costs 6 ppm on some units. 4+ armour is worth 4 ppm not +2 armour.

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
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Tactical_Spam wrote:Have you ever considered the fact that your formulas for determining points are broken as feth? Mark of Nurgle costs 6 ppm on some units. 4+ armour is worth 4 ppm not +2 armour.


We can check this in an alternative way:

If my calculations are correct, a windrider bike and space marine bike are roughly equivalent.

Do you think that's correct or incorrect in terms of the tactical utility of each?
   
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The Dog-house

Traditio wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:Have you ever considered the fact that your formulas for determining points are broken as feth? Mark of Nurgle costs 6 ppm on some units. 4+ armour is worth 4 ppm not +2 armour.


We can check this in an alternative way:

If my calculations are correct, a windrider bike and space marine bike are roughly equivalent.

Do you think that's correct or incorrect in terms of the tactical utility of each?


Yes, Windriders are made for mobility, SM bikes are not. SM bikes are made for hunting various problem units.

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
Made in us
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Tactical_Spam wrote:Yes, Windriders are made for mobility, SM bikes are not. SM bikes are made for hunting various problem units.


Right. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be asserting that they are roughly equivalent in utility.

Therefore, they should be roughly cost equivalent.

My formula works.
   
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The Dog-house

Traditio wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:Yes, Windriders are made for mobility, SM bikes are not. SM bikes are made for hunting various problem units.


Right. So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you seem to be asserting that they are roughly equivalent in utility.

Therefore, they should be roughly cost equivalent.

My formula works.


No that would be incorrect. SM bikes should cost less than Windriders in their current iteration.

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Tactical_Spam wrote:
I don't know why you argue with him, Smudge. He lives in a very odd meta.

Then his suggestions should apply only to his meta. Which is fine - for your meta.

But if these suggestions are to gain any kind of traction in the more mainstream settings (ie. tourneys, etc), they need to be balanced according to them.


They/them

 
   
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Tactical_Spam wrote:No that would be incorrect. SM bikes should cost less than Windriders in their current iteration.


I have great difficulty accepting this. Windrider bikes, without upgrades, have worse stats and firepower than space marine bikes. The advantage that windriders have over space marine bikes is mobility (and the opportunity to upgrade to heavy, not special, weapons).

Personally, I'd be satisfied at seeing both windrider bikes and space marine bikes costing 24 ppm.

Of course, in addition to this, windrider bikes should only be able to upgrade to a heavy weapon for 1 out of 3 bikes. This would result in an 82 point mobile artillery squad, but with reasonably restricted firepower.

I think that's basically fair.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/22 21:22:00


 
   
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No scatterlasers on Windriders. Period. That's a heavy weapon and they should go on Vypers only. There is nothing reasonable about the scatterlaser in 7th ed. They kill Gdamn IKs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 21:12:09


 
   
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The Dog-house

Traditio wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:No that would be incorrect. SM bikes should cost less than Windriders in their current iteration.


I have great difficulty accepting this. Windrider bikes, without upgrades, have worse stats and firepower than space marine bikes. The advantage that windriders have over space marine bikes is mobility (and the opportunity to upgrade to heavy, not special, weapons).

Personally, I'd be satisfied at seeing both windrider bikes and space marine bikes costing 24 ppm.

Of course, in addition to this, windrider bikes should only be able to upgrade to a heavy weapon for 1 out of 3 bikes. This would result in an 82 point mobile artillery squad, but with reasonably restricted firepower.

I think that's basically fair.


Windriders have more firepower than SM bikes. I think TL pseudo rending guns beats TL bolters anyday.

Bikes, both Windrider and otherwise, are not worth 24 ppm.

How about only one bike gets it, like SM?

H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
 
   
Made in us
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Eh, Drop Pods too, I think.
I'd rather have the Gladius' free vehicle rule only come into effect with full squads, as in a squad only gets their transport free if they max out the squad size, but that's just me. Keep it the same, so Drop Pods and Razorbacks can still be taken, but the price of the extra guys should counteract most of the spam.
Again, this is untested, but I always run games like this, so take it as you will.


My problem with requiring 10 man squads for a free rhino is that this is overly restrictive. It's over 1700 points to get a captain, a chaplain, 100 space marines and 15 scouts. All of this is without upgrades.

I have yet to see anyone complaining about free rhinos.

Free drop pods and razorbacks? Most definitely.

Rhinos? I don't think many people really feel particularly strongly about them.

Again, it's an option. If you're already taking 10 free vehicles, why not an 11th?


I'm against it in principle. It just doesn't make sense for a unit to be able to get a dedicated transport that they can't even ride in.

This isn't a rules/fairness consideration. It's sheer principle.

No-one takes them as is.


That's not an argument that they're not undercosted.

That's just an argument that other things are more undercosted or more effective.

I can't comment, I rarely use bikers myself. I'd rather have bikers as forced to a minimum size of five and leaving their cost as is, also preventing MSU spam


It's a seven point upgrade for:

1. Jink
2. Hammer of wrath
3. Increased mobility (2 and 3 together basically being equivalent to a jumppack)
4. +1 toughness (mark of nurgle)
5. Relentless
6. A twin-linked bolter

Are jink, relentless and a twin-linked bolter only worth 1 ppm?

I think you would have a difficult time defending that.

Does that really strike you as fair?

That doesn't strike me as fair.

And other factions can?
Hahaha, no. If everyone else has access to them, so do SM.


No. My proposal is to expunge them from the game entirely.

No-one complains about the Centurions themselves. It's grav that gets people riled up. How often do you see people complain about HB Centurions?


Go through the rules advantages that centurions have over basic devastators or assault marines. Give me a points value for each of those advantages. Please explain to me how you come to a result of "55 points."

Nope. Blast is not the way to go - plasma cannons prove this.
A Heavy 3 36" would be more ideal - fast enough to fire as a snapshot weapon, long enough to hit out, and fills in where the HB doesn't. Same cost, or 20 points.


That seems reasonable enough.

Nope.
In the SW codex, Eternal Warrior was actually buyable, at 35 points, IIRC. Put on the 15 for the storm shield, and 5 for the situational Adamantium Will. 55/60 is where it should be costed. Certainly not 70.
Why do you hate it so much?


There's no arguing with that. If stormshield = 15 and eternal warrior = 35, then 15+35 = 50. Adamantium will has no substantial points value, as per black templar chapter tactics. Together with adamantium will, their other chapter tactics special rules, and And They Shall Know No Fear, all of that collectively is part of the 1 ppm addition to what chaos space marines get.

Fair point. Shield Eternal being 50 ppm is fine as is.

40 max.
It's still stationary, and leaves your guys stranded. If your objectives are spread out across the table, you'll struggle to move and capture them in a Maelstrom setting.


I don't think that a 5 points difference is worth arguing over. Agreed.

13. Sternguard veterans shall cost 24 ppm.

Why? They're in a good spot as is?


A sternguard veteran is, for all rules and intents and purposes, a veteran sergeant with a fancy gun. A tactical sergeant is 14 ppm. The veteran sergeant upgrade is 10 ppm. Therefore, 24 ppm. I'm throwing in the gun for free.

For a guy in 2+ armour and no invuln?
I think not.


Again, they are veteran sergeants with artificer armor and a power weapon IN ADDITION TO their boltpistol and boltgun.

A veteran sergeant is 24 ppm. What is a power weapon and artificer armor worth?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/22 21:29:01


 
   
 
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