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Lol, if 3 were true then the galaxy would have ended aeons ago.

Every so often, the space sharks and one of the two lost chapters (the space jets) get together for a challenge to determine who amongst them will lead.

Dance off, bro!

Alpha Legion headcanon: not one single one of them was ever lying when they said "I am Alpharius." Not even once. Because Alpharius doesn't have a physical existence; he is at once both a real, independent entity and a manifestation of Omegon's ability to read the gestalt subconscious of the entire Legion.
As such, Alpharius can move between individual Legionnaires and take partial or complete possession if they are willing.

This explains why even the Emperor is ignorant of there being two Alpha Legion Primarchs, how Gulliman was able to "kill" Alpharius yet he still shows up from time to time, and also how the Legion of plots, deception, and double dealing maintains such a high cohesion.

 Selym wrote:
Points 5 and 6 are cannon anyway. Not the specific levels of tech and resistance in other galaxies, but the nids wokd have had a hard time getting a foot hold here without significant prior experience with thus sort of stuff.

Sort of. The Tyranids are a subject of debate. Most people seem to think they are related to the old ones or the C'tans (in particular the outsider) but that would limit them to have their origins in the milky way. I like the idea that they are completly outside our frame of fluff. The chaos gods is a bit of an issue since things where born before the chaos god of birth was born (heh). Still the idea appeals to me.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Lol, if 3 were true then the galaxy would have ended aeons ago.

The Hrud aren't always hostile and their natural distortion field only wrecks planets when there's insanely high quantaties of them. They can live undetected for the longest time in large societies and seem to be able to adapt to most enviroments, as long as it's dark and underground. Hence, since they are easily the most widely encountered xeno it's not so far out there.

Forgot what might be my favourite one. Living beings don't fear death. They fear the Nightbringer. This one goes like this:
The Nightbringer was (pre retcon) the most badass C'tan. He murdered so many things (Plants, races, lifeforms, other C'tans etc) that his image was permanently subcounciously burned into all sentient beings. The image of a dark shape with a huge scythe. How this happened is that with the enormous ammount of death he wrought the chaos resonance of his actions formed an image that caused fear in all living things the galaxy over. essentially he messed up the warp and everything with it. Pre him dying wasn't so bad. I'll edit this one as 7 on my list.

I'd say that being the 'third most widespread species in the galaxy' would count as 'insanely high quantities of them'.

Yep, but as soon as they reach planet or even city affecting numbers they'll start attracting unwanted atention hence they probably stay below that number by either migration or suicide. Either that or they might have some tech to reduce their natural effects. We know they have techs to boost it, as was employed in the wars, so it stands to reason they could do the opposite too.

I think they are the only species to be common on human planets that none- to few are aware about.

I too think the imperium's stories of the emperor is religious dogma gone wild. A remarkable human, no doubt, but not nearly as powerful as the religious doctrine suggests. Some might point at his body still being alive on the golden throne but to me it's not evidence of his divinity but rather an unexpected side effect from his battles against xenos, more specifically the orks of Ullanor.
It was one of the largest ork empires in imperial history and it was a massive battle that required many sm legions and primarchs but also empy and his custodes had to take part. Empy almost lost his head the battle was so fierce. We all know how orks love a good fight and I bet this one was so fun that runt herders still tell the story of how the orks almost krumped the humie empy that day. Now to further compound the issue humans still keep shouting 'fer da emprah dis!' And 'fer da emprah dat' the orks have no clue that empy should be dead by now.
In conclusion: the only reason why the emperor is still alive is because the orks still believe he is 'an wanna av anudder go see'.

I'm also going to say that the emperor didn't allow near death just to test horus nor did he have a big psykic ejaculation that wiped out the orks. After horus saved the puny git they both went deep into the planet where the orks massive reactor core used to power the powerful plasma tek the orks were using and set it to go into its crazy meltdown that imploded the planet leaving it a crumbled hollow husk. Religious dogma twisted that all up too.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Another one, the Necrons and the Tyranids are the Lords of Order.

Necrons want to eliminate chaos by eliminating everyone.

Tyranids will go even further eliminating everyone and turning their biomass into a single collective mind.

The Emperor is an aspiring lord of order, he too realizes that ultimately it is emotions the fuel chaos and seeks to create an Imperium where everyone wears grey and feels nothing.

I had a similar thing for a while where I was convinced that the Tyranids were a product of the c'tan so basically the tyranids and necrons were products of the star gods hence some of the weird interactions between them


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 Gordon Shumway wrote:
My Night Lords are actual vampires. In the old Rogue Trader rulebook there was a brief blurb about vampires existing in the 40k universe. It has since been retconned out through omission, so I guess that makes it head cannon. My NL warband abhorred the corruption that chaos was starting to inflict on their bodies and minds, so they set out looking for a cure or halt to their corruption. They found it in the form of the vampire virus/curse. It makes for fun modeling opportunities. Vargheists are much cooler looking than spawn models.

i remember there was something about energy or soul vampires but i think that got pushed aside with the arrival of the necrons and c'tan as the "undead" in space


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 Darth Bob wrote:
Just a few off the top of my head:


1) Asirnoth, the creature Ferrus Manus defeated and gave him his iron hands, was actually a shard of the Void Dragon. The living metal that bound itself to Ferrus had caused a genetic flaw in his geneseed, which was the catalyst for his sons' obsession with bionics and their belief that "the flesh is weak". In his later days, Ferrus had become suspicious of his sons' fanaticism, and was going to put an end to their reliance on bionics before Fulgrim's treachery took his attention from the matter.

2) The film Event Horizon is a prequel to the 40k universe.

3) Tyranids have been in the Milky Way for millions of years, but never had a reason to invade the galaxy en-masse until the creation of the Astronomican.

4) Many tales of the supernatural, demonic possessions, and urban legends throughout history are true, and are representative of early human encounters with the forces and energies of the Warp.

5) Because of the paradoxical nature of the Warp, and its complex relationship with time, Chaos has always existed, even before it did. Slaanesh existed well before the Fall of the Eldar, even though its birth had not happened yet.

1. Always assumed he got his hands from a c'tan so totally agree on this one!
2. hahah nice idea
3. I think that is established in some of the fluff around inquisitor kryptman as their is a suggestion that things like flu virus and the like were the first wave of the tyranid hive fleet and they have jsut been progressively getting larger over time as the main hive fleet arrives. Also the astonomican was stated as being the reason the tyranids were coming here, although later i think that was retconned to suggest that the mini beacon triggered by the Ultramarines was the reason they got attracted - the pharos device was it?
4. and 5. Is pretty much cannon, the warp is a reflextion of the emotions and what not of the material universe its only in more "recent" times that its been shaped how it is by the thoughts and emotions of today so it goes to reason that it would be a different shape as peoples thoguths and emotions change. Its got progressively more turbulent and horrific as time has past since the heresy as life has become more harsh and horrifc.

The Worldeaters never splintered into lots of warbands - just Kharn's battlegroup when he went OTT. They also didn't forget how to/stop using bolters, heavy weapons, etc.

Something I firmly believe is that if the Emperor were to rise from the Golden Throne, and start trying to fix the mess he finds that is the Imperium, he would ultimately be killed by the sheer tide of humans that would fight against him, because they're so deeply involved in their dogma. As an added note, they'd believe that the Emperor's body was possessed in some form, and would kill him to end such an atrocity, instead of believing that all of their beliefs were wrong, and that the Emperor's message had been diluted after all of these years.


Of course, there's plenty of other possibilities on what would happen, but I like the thought of this. It'd make everything even more tragic, IMO.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Something I firmly believe is that if the Emperor were to rise from the Golden Throne, and start trying to fix the mess he finds that is the Imperium, he would ultimately be killed by the sheer tide of humans that would fight against him, because they're so deeply involved in their dogma. As an added note, they'd believe that the Emperor's body was possessed in some form, and would kill him to end such an atrocity, instead of believing that all of their beliefs were wrong, and that the Emperor's message had been diluted after all of these years.


Of course, there's plenty of other possibilities on what would happen, but I like the thought of this. It'd make everything even more tragic, IMO.

There is a really old story of how the Spanish Inquisition would have killed Juicy J if he had returned during their peak period for pretty much this exact reason

Actually there's alot of evidence supporting that the Tyranids have been around for far longer then 746.M41 (Battle for Macragge). The fabled "Catachan devil" is said to be of a tyranid strain. Geenstealers, and in particular geenstealer cults, have been around for much, much longer. Both of theese are a bit doubtfull as proof (for varied reasons) but one that's unmistakenly true is that the legendary Comissar Cain finds a crashed hive ship enclosed in ice and, after examining it, they realise this thing had been under the ice in hibernation since long before the first tyranids arived in the milky way.

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Something I firmly believe is that if the Emperor were to rise from the Golden Throne, and start trying to fix the mess he finds that is the Imperium, he would ultimately be killed by the sheer tide of humans that would fight against him, because they're so deeply involved in their dogma. As an added note, they'd believe that the Emperor's body was possessed in some form, and would kill him to end such an atrocity, instead of believing that all of their beliefs were wrong, and that the Emperor's message had been diluted after all of these years.


Of course, there's plenty of other possibilities on what would happen, but I like the thought of this. It'd make everything even more tragic, IMO.

pretty sure I have read this in official fluff, that the fledgling inquisition were worried about "fixing" the Big E for fear of the war of faith it would cause with believers and non believers

TheWanderer wrote:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Something I firmly believe is that if the Emperor were to rise from the Golden Throne, and start trying to fix the mess he finds that is the Imperium, he would ultimately be killed by the sheer tide of humans that would fight against him, because they're so deeply involved in their dogma. As an added note, they'd believe that the Emperor's body was possessed in some form, and would kill him to end such an atrocity, instead of believing that all of their beliefs were wrong, and that the Emperor's message had been diluted after all of these years.


Of course, there's plenty of other possibilities on what would happen, but I like the thought of this. It'd make everything even more tragic, IMO.

pretty sure I have read this in official fluff, that the fledgling inquisition were worried about "fixing" the Big E for fear of the war of faith it would cause with believers and non believers

You remmember correctly. It's from the first page of the (specialist games) large scale table top game Inquisition rulebook. That line caused quite a stirr back when it was published.

Edit: As I recall this conversation happens soon after the Emperor is encased in the golden throne, implying they could wake him up and bring him back all along but chose not to. A few members of the council gets killed during this conversation.

 JustALittleOrkish wrote:

 2BlackJack1 wrote:
Something I firmly believe is that if the Emperor were to rise from the Golden Throne, and start trying to fix the mess he finds that is the Imperium, he would ultimately be killed by the sheer tide of humans that would fight against him, because they're so deeply involved in their dogma. As an added note, they'd believe that the Emperor's body was possessed in some form, and would kill him to end such an atrocity, instead of believing that all of their beliefs were wrong, and that the Emperor's message had been diluted after all of these years.


Of course, there's plenty of other possibilities on what would happen, but I like the thought of this. It'd make everything even more tragic, IMO.

There is a really old story of how the Spanish Inquisition would have killed Juicy J if he had returned during their peak period for pretty much this exact reason

 Nerak wrote:

You remmember correctly. It's from the first page of the (specialist games) large scale table top game Inquisition rulebook. That line caused quite a stirr back when it was published.

Edit: As I recall this conversation happens soon after the Emperor is encased in the golden throne, implying they could wake him up and bring him back all along but chose not to. A few members of the council gets killed during this conversation.

It's the surviving High Lords, and their motivation is more along the lines of 'but we want power' and 'he's more useful on there anyway' than fears it would cause a renewed civil war. It was just after the battle, before the Wars of Faith that saw the founding of the Ecclesiarchy.

mine? clearly this one: http://www.xkcd.com/1401/

Might get some flak for this, but the grey Knights are actually one of the lost legions, with their primarch never found, they where "put on the back burner" so to speak and where stuck stationed on Titan for most of the heresy, and when the Hersey ended, the new rulers of mankind found it useful to use this "unknown" legion to the best of their abilities, as a secret strike force against chaos.

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Might get some flak for this, but the grey Knights are actually one of the lost legions, with their primarch never found, they where "put on the back burner" so to speak and where stuck stationed on Titan for most of the heresy, and when the Hersey ended, the new rulers of mankind found it useful to use this "unknown" legion to the best of their abilities, as a secret strike force against chaos.

problems:

1) everything malcador did
2) the knights errant who ended up in the grey knights
3) all the hunting that was done for people to bring in.


MAYBE it's a lost legions geneseed, but I wouldn't say one of the lost legions.

 Brennonjw wrote:

problems:

1) everything malcador did
2) the knights errant who ended up in the grey knights
3) all the hunting that was done for people to bring in.


MAYBE it's a lost legions geneseed, but I wouldn't say one of the lost legions.

That is reasonably recent fairly dodgy background in fairness. Looking at you

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Might get some flak for this, but the grey Knights are actually one of the lost legions, with their primarch never found, they were "put on the back burner" so to speak and were stuck stationed on Titan for most of the heresy, and when the Hersey ended, the new rulers of mankind found it useful to use this "unknown" legion to the best of their abilities, as a secret strike force against chaos.

FTFY.

The creation of the knights is too well documented, and occurred after the Emperor's Fall. They were founded by champions from various other legions. So unless one of the founders was secretly somehow a surviving lost legionnaire, this is probably not where the GK came from.

 Selym wrote:

 thepowerfulwill wrote:
Might get some flak for this, but the grey Knights are actually one of the lost legions, with their primarch never found, they were "put on the back burner" so to speak and were stuck stationed on Titan for most of the heresy, and when the Hersey ended, the new rulers of mankind found it useful to use this "unknown" legion to the best of their abilities, as a secret strike force against chaos.

FTFY.

The creation of the knights is too well documented, and occurred after the Emperor's Fall. They were founded by champions from various other legions. So unless one of the founders was secretly somehow a surviving lost legionnaire, this is probably not where the GK came from.

This is based on some old lore honestly, don't know where I heard it but I could have sworn something once called them a first founding chapter.

That the events of the "Bloodtide Returns' where Grey Knights supposedly slaughter the uncorrupted Battle Sisters and then anointed their armor with the blood of the innocent in a heinous ritual (that was basically offering blood to the blood god for the dark favor being protected from cheaty-face magic blood so they can have a proper fight with one of Khornes demons) isn't what actually occurred... instead it describes the corrupting visions that the bloodtide assailed the Grey Knights with in an attempt to break their resolve.

The second bloodtide is described as driving some of the most devout of priests to madness, corruption and acts of horrific slaughter, my headcannon is that it did so by subjecting them to hallucinations and vision of them preforming such acts until they broke. That contact with the blood caused you to vividly imagine participating in gratuitous and debased acts of violence, such it would drive most men to them. The Sisters fighting and dying alongside the Grey Knights so they can get past the bloodletters to reach Ka'jagga'nath creates a metaphorical sacrifice of the Sister's innocent blood as protective wards upon their armor. If they are fighting in close proximity the blood of Sisters slain by bloodletters probably even splattered on Grey Knight Armor... these are potent images that the corrupting powers of chaos would feed upon and wield as weapons against the Grey Knights Faith. Trying to corrupt them or sew doubt in their virtue, righteousness and purity, which would undermine the Grey Knights most potent weapon. The Grey Knights fighting a spiritual battle against such an insidious mental attack while fighting off the physical forms of the the demons makes for a waaay more interesting and dynamic struggle than the travesty Ward wrote.

The original story makes little sense. While I don't subscribe to the whole 'Grey Knights are more uncorruptible than Sisters, and wouldn't need to make ritual preparations to protect themselves' argument (and find it kinda shallow) making blood paint out of the Sisters is still inanely stupid. I like the premise that Grey Knights retain their purity of faith though hard work, occult ritual and mental preparation... but in the context of the story it sounds more like the Grey Knights instantly succumb to the same behaviors the bloodtide is making everyone else perform. It reads like heresey and Khorne whorship, ("Sated their blades in their innocent blood, effectively turning their weapons and armor into talisman's of purity" seriously?! Few acts get more impure that betrayal and murder of innocents.) Plus it's redundant with since they were "Led by a trio of their Chapter's formidable Librarians, who enunciate the cants of cleansing to repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread." Anointing their armor with sacred oils and unguents for protection could have been cool, bathing in the blood of your allies... that's a theme better left to forces of Chaos or the the Flesh Tearers in their spiral towards damnation.

My head canon is that the particular piece of text to which you refer, and all later references to it regardless of medium, don't exist. Including this one.

Slight thread necro but it's an interesting one.

My favourite bit of headcanon is that the reason the Eldar hate making Wraith constructs is that it's the same process of powering a robot with a soul is exactly what the C'tan did to the Nectontyr to make the Necrons.

My theory on one of the lost legions is that they mutated crazily. The emperror found the primarch and he had a few mutations that the Emperor was okay with, like Sanguinius. But as time went on his legion and him mutated farther and farther to the point of grotesque creatures barely resembling humans. When confronted he attacked the Emperor and Terra itself and fled. Knowing what had to be done the Emperor sent Russ after him and erased the flawed legion from history so no one would know of these mutations and fear that it could happen to them or become untrustworthy of legions that had Primarchs with mutations

My head canon

Watchers in the dark are secretly squats

Russ is actually going to end up Rescuing Isha in his quest for the tree of life in the warp.

Cypher is the only one who realizes the big E is a perpetual and is trying to pull him off life support so he can come back.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
My head canon is that the particular piece of text to which you refer, and all later references to it regardless of medium, don't exist. Including this one.

Accepted.

Incidentally, I think Urien Rakarth is a Ynnead cultist. He's one of the premier haemonculi of the dark city, and has been a pioneer in their arts. What they do, essentially, is to recycle DE souls to keep them around as long as possible. Each soul in abeyance while the bodies regenerate is another power source for Ynnead (just like ones in infinity circuits) and each Dark Eldar resurrected is a soul snatched from Slaanesh's grasp.

Ooh, this is a nice idea, and I think some of you had some great ideas. That one about the Eldar thinking about wraithbone as related to what the Necrontyr were doing in particular... delicious!

My own:

1. St. Ollanius Pius, the shining star of mankind, hallowed be His name, long may He be remembered, etc. etc. wasn't a perpetual. He was just a man and he looked upon the face of darkness and spat in it. I even like the idea that he didn't particularly care for the Emperor or the Imperial Truth, either.

2. Roboute Guilliman actually DID write a good document in the Codex, and everyone makes annotations; those written by famed commanders get added in as footnotes in later editions and it becomes a living text of sorts.

3. The Necrontyr retain more of their personality than in canon, and actually are quite happy with the situation overall. They had crappy physical forms that were sickly and dying, but they traded up for sleek new artifical forms that really did do everything they said on the tin.

4. Asdrubael Vect has allowed the nobles to retain a lot of power in Commoragh, thus undermining the vicious meritocracy he ostensibly sought to create. Malys, or he himself, are trying to do something about this.

5. The Tau are actually very good at exploiting an empire, and have a solid propaganda machine alongside providing tangible material benefits to their client species. Political officers, youth clubs, censors, mass surveillance etc. all abound, but generally nobody's starving or in all that much pain.

6. There are Phoenix Lords for all the aspects - when an Eldar gets trapped on a new warrior path of her own creation, she undertakes a pilgrimage to find Asurmen and, if successful, founds a shrine to spread her teachings.

7. Leman Russ and the Space Wolves really are just lying through their teeth. Alternatively, Fenris, due to the fervent spiritual beliefs of Fenrisians, has developed a consciousness, and is sort of like a warp entity. Other locales could be similar - Nocturne comes to mind, but also Olympia or Nostramo could have been a nascent entity that fed the paranoia or the self-interest of their peoples. A modern example could be something like Catachan, or various shrine worlds of the Ecclesiarchy/training worlds of the Sororitas, going some way to explain the miracles that occur around them.

8. The Primarch(s) of the Alpha Legion DID die, but plans were in place for a successor in order to prove the resiliency of their doctrine. Also it makes for a nice parallel with the legacy of Roboute in the form of the Codex.

9. The Chaos Gods are more rounded, but as their followers lean this or that way, one or other of their aspects become emphasised.

10. The modern Space Marine chapters are around 100,000, and the Legions numbered in the millions. Vehicle crew and many ship crew are fully fledged Astartes in power armour in this view, who are fully trained as infantry because they live for ages and don't do much else.

11. Corax, like the Khan, didn't really care much for the Imperium either, and it wasn't until the Heresy and he saw firsthand an alternative that he really got on board. Still didn't employ servitors though.

12. Lugft Huron didn't fall to Chaos or retreat to the Warp or the like. He thought he could do his duty better if he had more power, acquired it, revolted, was put down, and died, all in the material world.

13. Goge Vandire was made to look worse by the victors; indeed his reign probably had little impact on most people in the Imperium, but the nobility was unused to having power centralised so much. Indeed, the entire Age of Apostasy may have been overblown as an excuse to secure noble privilege after the death of a centralising reformer.

14. Space Wolves do have successors, but away from the possibly mystical effects of Fenris the Canis Helix produces mundane Astartes. Being as superstitious as they are, the Space Wolves have never really permitted any open research into demystifying their status.

15. The Black Templars don't have a high marshal; each fleet is entirely self contained, and they neither despise nor desire psykers, recognising that the Emperor Himself was a witch.

16. It's common for Astartes to believe in the divine nature of the Emperor, because that just discards some inane piece of incoherence that's in standard canon.

17. Ogryns aren't inherently stupid and Ratlings aren't inherently cunning. Squats are also simply another abhuman.

18. Dark Eldar vat-regens are actually clones with replicated memories, rather than being resurrections soul and all. This has no practical effect but that it makes them closer to nulls or Tau. This is also why they don't really have psykers, though nobody, including the clones, are really aware of any of this. It's also probably contributed to them being unlikable jerks who can't stand each other or themselves. On this view, the demons awaiting at Khaine's gate just want to get in to create mundane havoc rather than special Slaaneshi havoc.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Brian, that's not far off. Canonically the Mechanicus catechisms and hymns are all user manuals and construction manuals for various things, because the Mechanicum-as-religion rose from the survivors of the Fall turning all their knowledge into an oral tradition to make sure it survived the database corruptions.

"Inseeeeeerrrrt the GAAAAME DISC into yoooooooooour XBOX OOOOOOOOONE!!!~"

I have this mental image of a servitor opera singing LEGO instructions now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some Headcanon:

The Chaos Gods actually represent facets of human nature,
Khorne represents Blood, Guts and the rest of it, but he'd never double cross you, or lie to you. He's a straightforward guy.
Nurgle represents Decay, Pestilence and Disease, but he represents nature too, and the cycle of life, death, and even emotions around that.
Slaanesh represents Lust, Greed and Indulgence, but also represents the times when indulgent feelings are felt as a result of a good act in this world.
Tzeentch represents Trickery, Deceit and Mind Games, but he also represents hope and literacy for all.

The Emperor, seeking to destroy these entities, could turn Humanity into a blank slate, empty shells with nothing inside, realising it or not. The bad interpretations of the Gods are perpetuated not only by the Imperium, but by the actions of those who follow the Chaos Gods, and the mutations are not 'gifts', they are merely tools to bring about a series of wars that wipe out all life in the galaxy, allowing Chaos to start again, better this time.