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I wondered today-- why do SM use bolters instead of Hotshot Volley Guns? They don't seem easier to manufacture or maintain, and the ammo is a major drag, where volley guns can both carry much more ammo and replenish it over time, as I understand it. Plus, although we don't have a direct in universe comparison that I know of, Volley guns are much deadlier.

Aside from tradition, is there any reason that SM aren't running around with Hotshot volley guns? And is there anything to stop a particular chapter from ditching the boltgun, at least in some situations, to arm the rank and file with Volley guns?

Bolters in fluff are nasty. Shock and awe as the person next to you has a lmb severed or entire torso is turned to a flying pink mass. Fired on automatic if needed.

Also they can penetrate power armour and fire hellfire bolts etc.

Because firing self propelled grenades as an 8-foot super human is a lot cooler than being a 6-foot pansy with a shinier flashlight.

I get that bolters are probably better in the background than on the tabletop, but there is a wide, wide gulf in performance between bolters and volleyguns, a volley gun is well over twice as lethal against all target types and four times as lethal against enemy elites, the notional targets of most SM raids.

As far as the rule of cool goes, a Hotshot Volley Gun is just a fallout gatling laser. Which are pretty damn awesome.

Fear tactics. A lot of what SM's do works because of fear. It's one thing for a man next to you to be hit by a laser and die. It's another for him to explode all over you.

Probably because fluff =/= crunch. those bolters are capable of straight taking out a primarch. but in game it basically wont happen.

also volley guns cant get coated in poison or explosive shells like the sternguard get

HSVG weren't invented when space marines came out.

 jhe90 wrote:
Bolters in fluff are nasty. Shock and awe as the person next to you has a lmb severed or entire torso is turned to a flying pink mass. Fired on automatic if needed.

Also they can penetrate power armour and fire hellfire bolts etc.

I imagine seeing someone get instantly superheated to the point of just exploding in a cloud of meat-scented steam is not a great morale booster either.

Bolts can occasionally penetrate power armor, especially the joints or what have you, but a volley gun shot just zips right through the main ceramite plates, and can suppress with more than twice the rate of fire, without ever needing to reload. That's an insurmountable advantage.

There are cool specialty bolts available, but even a standard bolt, which a Marine might discharge hundreds of, takes at least a week of labor for a servitor to assemble one. Uno. That's compared to a volley gun which slays a CSM every time you pull the trigger. Unlimited ammo, no servitor needed. Imagine the advantage a SM chapter would have over it's equivalent if it was able to dedicate all that manufacturing power that normally goes into bolt production into making ships, tanks, thunderfire cannons, whatever. You'd have a huge advantage.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Bolters in fluff are nasty. Shock and awe as the person next to you has a lmb severed or entire torso is turned to a flying pink mass. Fired on automatic if needed.

Also they can penetrate power armour and fire hellfire bolts etc.

I imagine seeing someone get instantly superheated to the point of just exploding in a cloud of meat-scented steam is not a great morale booster either.

Bolts can occasionally penetrate power armor, especially the joints or what have you, but a volley gun shot just zips right through the main ceramite plates, and can suppress with more than twice the rate of fire, without ever needing to reload. That's an insurmountable advantage.

There are cool specialty bolts available, but even a standard bolt, which a Marine might discharge hundreds of, takes at least a week of labor for a servitor to assemble one. Uno. That's compared to a volley gun which slays a CSM every time you pull the trigger. Unlimited ammo, no servitor needed. Imagine the advantage a SM chapter would have over it's equivalent if it was able to dedicate all that manufacturing power that normally goes into bolt production into making ships, tanks, thunderfire cannons, whatever. You'd have a huge advantage.

Got a fluff quote for the laser vs ceramite?

as well bolters do shoot really fast as well. just cant be shown in game.

additional point. maybe the munitorium just doesnt want them to have it hmmm?

Its also a science fantasy game. its not meant to be realistic. otherwise it would just be easier to bombard the enemy for weeks first then every game played would be 1000 points marine vs maybe 500 points of anything else.

 Desubot wrote:
Probably because fluff =/= crunch. those bolters are capable of straight taking out a primarch. but in game it basically wont happen.

also volley guns cant get coated in poison or explosive shells like the sternguard get

The only fluff reason I can picture is that the bolter is just as intrinsic to the SM as power armor, so dropping it, even for an obviously superior weapon, would be just as radical as expanding beyond chapter size limits, or building a bunch of chapter fleet ships with lances and nova cannons. Probably a non-starter for political reasons.

It's also possible that a HSVG can only be carried by a Storm Trooper because they don't have any extra cooling requirements. SM already have significant heat sink requirements for their PA, and maybe adding a HSVG is just a bridge too far for heat dispersal. I doubt that though.


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 Desubot wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Bolters in fluff are nasty. Shock and awe as the person next to you has a lmb severed or entire torso is turned to a flying pink mass. Fired on automatic if needed.

Also they can penetrate power armour and fire hellfire bolts etc.

I imagine seeing someone get instantly superheated to the point of just exploding in a cloud of meat-scented steam is not a great morale booster either.

Bolts can occasionally penetrate power armor, especially the joints or what have you, but a volley gun shot just zips right through the main ceramite plates, and can suppress with more than twice the rate of fire, without ever needing to reload. That's an insurmountable advantage.

There are cool specialty bolts available, but even a standard bolt, which a Marine might discharge hundreds of, takes at least a week of labor for a servitor to assemble one. Uno. That's compared to a volley gun which slays a CSM every time you pull the trigger. Unlimited ammo, no servitor needed. Imagine the advantage a SM chapter would have over it's equivalent if it was able to dedicate all that manufacturing power that normally goes into bolt production into making ships, tanks, thunderfire cannons, whatever. You'd have a huge advantage.

Got a fluff quote for the laser vs ceramite?

as well bolters do shoot really fast as well. just cant be shown in game.

additional point. maybe the munitorium just doesnt want them to have it hmmm?

Its also a science fantasy game. its not meant to be realistic. otherwise it would just be easier to bombard the enemy for weeks first then every game played would be 1000 points marine vs maybe 500 points of anything else.

The HSVG is described as being specifically designed to the punch through ceramite plate in the armory section of the MT codex.

I've never seen bolters described as having an exceptional rate of fire, do you have a quote for that? In the fluff and in the crunch they just have an average rate of fire, which is further limited to generally utilizing 20 to 30 round magazines.

The munitorum may well not want the SM to have them, but barring some sort of prohibition (and good luck getting the SM to honor that) there would be nothing to stop chapter forges from producing them. Additionally I'm pretty sure that would fall under the Schola Progenium specifically, not the overall munitorum, since nobody outside the MT has volley guns.

If there is not a veneer of reality on top of the fantastic setting, it would not be appealing. It doesn't benefit anyone to reduce things to absurdities.

Shock and awe, lets say you splatter someone's brains over a entire room, its shock as a 8foot giant closes on you rapidly turning humans to flying chunks of flesh and bone.

Fear, fear causes enemies to break and thus the attacker advantage. Its extreme concept of violence of action, highly controlled but extreme force applies to cause the most fear a d shock.

 jhe90 wrote:
Shock and awe, lets say you splatter someone's brains over a entire room, its shock as a 8foot giant closes on you rapidly turning humans to flying chunks of flesh and bone.

Fear, fear causes enemies to break and thus the attacker advantage. Its extreme concept of violence of action, highly controlled but extreme force applies to cause the most fear a d shock.

Okay. So being blown up by a rapid chemical reaction is somehow scarier than being blown up by an even faster transfer of coherent light energy into your body? You still end up in little chunks all over. The only factor may be the report of the weapon. We know bolters are loud (although the sound varies from author to author) but a HSVG may be quieter or even (although I think this is unlikely) silent.

But the tactical applications of a totally silent weapon far outweigh the demoralizing effect of a loud one.

I think it mostly comes down to the same reason the Legions went away from mass issue of Volkite Weaponry (other than production difficulties) and that is the wide array of different ammo you could issue for a boltgun to fit different mission requirements. The fallacy of that how ever is they never issue the Special Issue Ammo to anyone beyond special squads, ie the Seekers of the Legions and the Sternguard of the Chapters.

 Silverthorne wrote:

The munitorum may well not want the SM to have them, but barring some sort of prohibition (and good luck getting the SM to honor that) there would be nothing to stop chapter forges from producing them. Additionally I'm pretty sure that would fall under the Schola Progenium specifically, not the overall munitorum, since nobody outside the MT has volley guns.

Tomato potato its a government agency suppressing information. which in addition is possible that they are suppressing that info from the space marine as IIRC the scions where specifically there to stop rogue marines anyway.

Also i forget if taurox can come in volleygun flavors for IG.

its still science fantasy even if it can contain some nuggets of realism.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:
Shock and awe, lets say you splatter someone's brains over a entire room, its shock as a 8foot giant closes on you rapidly turning humans to flying chunks of flesh and bone.

Fear, fear causes enemies to break and thus the attacker advantage. Its extreme concept of violence of action, highly controlled but extreme force applies to cause the most fear a d shock.

Okay. So being blown up by a rapid chemical reaction is somehow scarier than being blown up by an even faster transfer of coherent light energy into your body? You still end up in little chunks all over. The only factor may be the report of the weapon. We know bolters are loud (although the sound varies from author to author) but a HSVG may be quieter or even (although I think this is unlikely) silent.

But the tactical applications of a totally silent weapon far outweigh the demoralizing effect of a loud one.

Stalker pattern if you need quiet, combat blades and such... Plenty of options. There's quiet too. And versatile. Space marines face many fies, weapons must be flexible
As stated bolter was easy to make by thousad but also is a very effective weapon to cause panic.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wondered today-- why do SM use bolters instead of Hotshot Volley Guns? They don't seem easier to manufacture or maintain, and the ammo is a major drag, where volley guns can both carry much more ammo and replenish it over time, as I understand it. Plus, although we don't have a direct in universe comparison that I know of, Volley guns are much deadlier.

Aside from tradition, is there any reason that SM aren't running around with Hotshot volley guns? And is there anything to stop a particular chapter from ditching the boltgun, at least in some situations, to arm the rank and file with Volley guns?

Volley Guns aren't "really" that much deadlier, the rules for Rapid Fire are just crap.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I think it mostly comes down to the same reason the Legions went away from mass issue of Volkite Weaponry (other than production difficulties) and that is the wide array of different ammo you could issue for a boltgun to fit different mission requirements. The fallacy of that how ever is they never issue the Special Issue Ammo to anyone beyond special squads, ie the Seekers of the Legions and the Sternguard of the Chapters.

That never made sense to me either. If you figure how rare even an individual SM is in the big scheme of things it is crazy how miserly they are with the special issue ammo. Of course, the HSVG can be affected by orders that make it more versatile in the way that different ammo types can make the bolter more versatile. This to me indicates that it must have different firing modes or different tuning settings available to it.

I just think it is interesting to imagine the type of face-melting that would occur if an entire chapter of marines used the HSVG as the default infantry weapon.


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 Kanluwen wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wondered today-- why do SM use bolters instead of Hotshot Volley Guns? They don't seem easier to manufacture or maintain, and the ammo is a major drag, where volley guns can both carry much more ammo and replenish it over time, as I understand it. Plus, although we don't have a direct in universe comparison that I know of, Volley guns are much deadlier.

Aside from tradition, is there any reason that SM aren't running around with Hotshot volley guns? And is there anything to stop a particular chapter from ditching the boltgun, at least in some situations, to arm the rank and file with Volley guns?

Volley Guns aren't "really" that much deadlier, the rules for Rapid Fire are just crap.

Do you mean in the fluff or the crunch? Because on the tabletop a HSVG totally outclasses a bolter in virtually every metric. I don't see any way how a tac squad armed with bolters could overcome a tac squad armed with HSVG.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
I think it mostly comes down to the same reason the Legions went away from mass issue of Volkite Weaponry (other than production difficulties) and that is the wide array of different ammo you could issue for a boltgun to fit different mission requirements. The fallacy of that how ever is they never issue the Special Issue Ammo to anyone beyond special squads, ie the Seekers of the Legions and the Sternguard of the Chapters.

That never made sense to me either. If you figure how rare even an individual SM is in the big scheme of things it is crazy how miserly they are with the special issue ammo. Of course, the HSVG can be affected by orders that make it more versatile in the way that different ammo types can make the bolter more versatile. This to me indicates that it must have different firing modes or different tuning settings available to it.

I just think it is interesting to imagine the type of face-melting that would occur if an entire chapter of marines used the HSVG as the default infantry weapon.

It would be really cool for them to have all HSVGs, just like it would be cool for them all to have Special Issue Ammo or at least the option to take SIA.

 Silverthorne wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
I wondered today-- why do SM use bolters instead of Hotshot Volley Guns? They don't seem easier to manufacture or maintain, and the ammo is a major drag, where volley guns can both carry much more ammo and replenish it over time, as I understand it. Plus, although we don't have a direct in universe comparison that I know of, Volley guns are much deadlier.

Aside from tradition, is there any reason that SM aren't running around with Hotshot volley guns? And is there anything to stop a particular chapter from ditching the boltgun, at least in some situations, to arm the rank and file with Volley guns?

Volley Guns aren't "really" that much deadlier, the rules for Rapid Fire are just crap.

Do you mean in the fluff or the crunch? Because on the tabletop a HSVG totally outclasses a bolter in virtually every metric. I don't see any way how a tac squad armed with bolters could overcome a tac squad armed with HSVG.

If you want to go by fluff:
The HSVG is mentioned as being potentially fatal for its operator, with the power source being able to detonate if struck or if fired too long.

For tabletop, like I said:
Rules for Rapid Fire are crap. HSVG comes out ahead because Salvo is huge. Try playing Lias Issodon from the Raptors Chapter sometime to see what a Salvo boltgun can do. 30" S4 AP5 Salvo 2/4 is nice.

There's no source for that. It says its has penitent class heat sink, and that it can '' maintain a punishing rate of high powered fire '' They had the Gets Hot! rule, but it was a misprint/typo and was fixed.

Don't hotshot volley guns tend to melt down over time, due to the intense heat? Basically, use your gun for a while and it becomes slag, so you have to get it replaced? That was at least the old fluff. Nothing near as extreme as with a plasma gun, and it's offset by cooling systems, but enough to make them less resource-friendly than they appear at a glance.

Nothing mentionned about that in the Scion dex.

But any weapon being fired too much will get damage, so its nothing special or extra ordinary, its just that in its supreme stupidity, the Imperium thinks changing a barrel is hard (its not)

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's no source for that. It says its has penitent class heat sink, and that it can '' maintain a punishing rate of high powered fire '' They had the Gets Hot! rule, but it was a misprint/typo and was fixed.

"Tempestus" novella had that blurb I mentioned, actually.

It's not a question of it "getting hot" in the Plasma Gun sense, but strapping a reactor to your back generally can be hazardous to your health.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Nothing mentionned about that in the Scion dex.

But any weapon being fired too much will get damage, so its nothing special or extra ordinary, its just that in its supreme stupidity, the Imperium thinks changing a barrel is hard (its not)

Again, "Tempestus" actually discusses this.

It's not the barrel that is damaged. During the course of a firefight the HSVG operator swaps barrels while the other Scions lay down covering fire.
The connections for the wires running from the backpack reactor to the gun get fused when fired for too long, as do the focusing lenses inside of the gun itself.

So basically when you do abusive use of the weapon it will break, okay, that sounds like any other weapons I know about, except marine stuff, of course, because good forbid something bad happens to them.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So basically when you do abusive use of the weapon it will break, okay, that sounds like any other weapons I know about, except marine stuff, of course, because good forbid something bad happens to them.

unless they forget to pray 3 times a day to it before battle.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So basically when you do abusive use of the weapon it will break, okay, that sounds like any other weapons I know about, except marine stuff, of course, because good forbid something bad happens to them.

Yeah yeah yeah, we get it. "Stormtroopers are better than Marines" or whatever.

"Abusive use of the weapon" need not apply when you have your backpack reactor explode, thanks to a sniper hitting a power regulator.
How many times have people been killed by having pouches with spare bolter magazines getting shot?

In any regards, it really all boils down to:
Volley Guns are better because they were written in later. They benefit from being Salvo rather than Rapid(lol) Fire.

 Bobthehero wrote:
So basically when you do abusive use of the weapon it will break, okay, that sounds like any other weapons I know about, except marine stuff, of course, because good forbid something bad happens to them.

Got a bit of an axe to grind?

Marine stuff is probably more valuable than the Scion himself - given the relic level of some bolters.

The main reasons Marines have them is because of their multi-use and effectiveness (against most xenos and heretics, bolters are reliable, deadly, and modular). When Chaos Space Marines raise their horns, bolters do just as good a job as they did back in the heresy, and can be loaded easier with other rounds.

They are iconic and have been in circulation longer - it's a much a part of them as their power armour.

They're not that much worse than the HSVG - in fluff, they have a huge impact, and if you're going to compare the tabletop stats, the FFG portrayal of bolt weapons in Deathwatch are monstrous. That's a weapon for Astartes. After all, bolters are mini rapid fire grenade launchers. They'll pack a hell of a punch too.

After all, they've got to be pretty good - the Space Marines aren't the Imperium's Elite for nothing.

Never because Marines apparently never carry spare ammo and because their armor would probably protect them from the worse of it. But Marines also have a huge generator on their back you could detonate, adding a bunch of batteries to power up a more powerful weapon would add very little danger to them.

Im pretty sure marines doo carry extra ammo.

and they certainly do carry a much more powerful weapons on occasion. they are lascannons.

Not as portable or as versatile as either a boltgun or HSVG, I also assume the backpack needed to keep the lascannon firing would be much bigger and much more potent than the HSVG one.