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Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




New General Special Rules for the Faction
Jump Packs available to all HQs, including named HQs & Lemartes
Artificer armor provide a 2+ / 6++
Blood Angels that take Jump Packs get a rule that each model gets d3 hammer of wrath
Keep Magna Grapple current rules but also return old rule where it can pull enemies closer
All Blood Angels are relentless as well as have Furious Charge

New Wargear
Strangulum - Range 12", Str 6 AP - , Assault 2 - "Blood Boil" - When rolling To Wound for a weapon that has this special rule, use the target’s Initiative instead of its Toughness (note that the model’s Toughness is still used to determine whether an attack has the Instant Death special rule). In addition, if a 6 is rolled To Wound when attacking with a weapon that has this special rule, the Wound is resolved at AP2.
- Available to Elite Infantry, Assault Squads, Bike squads and HQs
Heavy Jump Pack - 50pts per model. +1 Toughness, +1 Wound, Hit and Run, Fleet
- Available to Death Company, Assault Marines, HQ's, Command Squad and Sternguard
- Max 5 HJPs per squad - Max # does not include and IC's or Characters that are in/join the squad. - NEW
Rename Lightning Claws to Blood Talons
Available to all, +1 Str, AP3 Shred

HQ Changes
Libby Dreads can be taken in a conclave
Libby Dread +1 attack, can be Venerable, has 5++, powerfist can be changed for a blood talon, can add magna grapple
Libby Dread 130pts base

Sanguinary priests have no Force Org Slot - can be taken by any infantry or bike or Jump pack unit as a Sargent upgrade

Sanguinor becomes an MC - Str 6, T6, W5 with FNP and move him to LOW

Techmarine HQ can take a TFC

Mephiston get a 4++ and Eternal warrior at his current price

Elite Changes
Merge Command Squad and Vanguard Vet Squads - Keep name as Command Squad, give the squad divine intervention. Allow Company champion to take Storm Shield
Command Squad can take Heavy Jump Packs as an upgrade

Give Sternguard Squad the ability to take Jump Packs
Sternguard can take Heavy Jump Packs as an upgrade

Merge Termi squads - Terminators Squad can pick and choose weapons for any role.

Remove Regular Dreadnoughts - Can only make Libby, Furioso or DC Dreadnoughts - Grant the updates to regular codex marine dreadnoughts to the BA variants - increased attacks and squadrons.
Rename Blood Talons to Heavy Blood Talons
BA dreadnoughts gain 3" to all movement with a fast Engine upgrade
Furiosos can pay for WS 6 or Can pay for BS 5 - Can also take all dreadnought shooting options.
DC Dread gains WS5, and Rampage

Lemartes can be taken as an elite choice or added to 1 DC squad
Death Company get Jump Packs for free, can upgrade to Heavy Jump Packs
Death Company get ability for 1 last strike the turn they die
Death Company get access to Blood Talons(as mentioned above)
Death Company can take Gravguns, Plasma Guns, melta guns, and the new Strangulum gun
Death Company Squad size minimum would be 3 - NEW

Sangiunary Guard's death masks grant fear and 1+ to invulnerable saves but cost 10ppm
Sanguinary Guard's Encarmine Axe and Sword function as -
Sword -Str+1 AP2 Melee, Shred, Two Handed, Master Crafted
Axe - Str+3 AP2 Melee, Reaping Swing, Two Handed, Master Crafted - Reaping Swing - On a turn in which a model equipped with thisweapon charges, it strikes at its normal Initiative order in the ensuing combat. In any subsequent rounds of combat, the wielder strikes at the Initiative 1 step.
Sanguinary Guard have 2 wounds

Troop Changes
Taking Dante allows troops to take Jump Packs

Fast Attack Changes
Assault Squads have access to all close combat weapon selections and stormshields
Assault Squads can take Gravguns, Hand Flamers, Infernus Pistols, Plasma Pistols, Plasma Guns, melta guns, and the new Strangulum gun
Assault Squad size minimum would be 3 - NEW
Add Stormtalons and Stormhawks

LOW
Add Updated Sanguinor
Adding Dante allows troops to take Jump Packs

This message was edited 12 times. Last update was at 2016/06/13 14:56:47


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Made in de
Junior Officer with Laspistol





You want an army full of W2, T5, Hit and Run, Fleet marines with jump packs, access to storm shields and all melee weapons?

Ok.


Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...

FAQs 
   
Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




If you wanted to do that you'd have 4 units on the table.

5 Death Company with Heavy jump packs and a fun array of weapons would be 400pts or so. so yeah if you wanted to you could.

Good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I guess SW's have that with TWC and Wulfen....so ya...shifting meta's and what not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/13 14:44:54


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Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





I disagree with a lot of this. HJP is a bad idea, even at the cost.

The option to take jump packs on all characters is not good - if you want special characters with jump packs, take the ones with jump packs.

Sternguard with jump packs is not a good idea, and certainly has no basis other than to increase power.

Assault Squads at 3 man base has no basis. Nor does having them all with storm shields.

It really does look like you're only focusing on a single aspect of the BA (jump packs) and ignoring how they're actually rather adherent to the Codex Astartes and the various weapons and their uses. You're creating Marines +1 here.


They/them

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I'm pretty sure some of these just rip off space wolves...

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Every thread like this will be an absolute disaster until a few items are understood.

1) Marines aren't good. At least base marines. Part of the problem with BA is almost everything is an meq.

2) The only marine heavy weapon that matters is the grav cannon. People bitch and whine, but this is the truth. No grav cannon means the BA basically can't shoot. in 7th ed. Even the multimelta can be replicated by getting a meltagun closer to the target.

3) Tanks suck. Making them fast with imperial weapons that aren't grav cannons doesn't make them not suck.

4) Jump packs are strictly inferior to bikes.

5) 2+ armor is basically garbage unless it is on an MC, in which case it is godly. This trashes several BA hard, making them unable to perform their jobs.

6) Free stuff is one of the main ways vanilla marines are "good". Free stuff doesn't make the units good in a vacuum, only "good" in context of that specific formation, which BA don't have. And even then, we are just turning vanilla marines into the best swarm list. WTF?!?

7) Assault is virtually impossible without insane durability. This goes back to #1. Meqs aren't durable. This makes assaulting with them virtually impossible.

These items make a "fix BA" thread nearly an impossible task without just making them red vanilla marines.
   
Made in hk
Steadfast Ultramarine Sergeant




Naaris wrote:
If you wanted to do that you'd have 4 units on the table.

5 Death Company with Heavy jump packs and a fun array of weapons would be 400pts or so. so yeah if you wanted to you could.

Good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I guess SW's have that with TWC and Wulfen....so ya...shifting meta's and what not.


I feels like you use the profile of Thurnder Wolf Mount in formulating your Heaby Jump Pack?
   
Made in ca
Evasive Pleasureseeker



Lost in a blizzard, somewhere near Toronto

Can we change the thread title to something a litter more appropriate? How about, "Make Blood Angels the greatest OP auto-win button army in the entire game"?!

 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Neophyte2012 wrote:
Naaris wrote:
If you wanted to do that you'd have 4 units on the table.

5 Death Company with Heavy jump packs and a fun array of weapons would be 400pts or so. so yeah if you wanted to you could.

Good luck!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although, I guess SW's have that with TWC and Wulfen....so ya...shifting meta's and what not.


I feels like you use the profile of Thurnder Wolf Mount in formulating your Heaby Jump Pack?

He probably did seeing as he ripped off runic armour.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Martel732 wrote:
Every thread like this will be an absolute disaster until a few items are understood....

Well some things need to fixed at rulebook level... but how's this?

- Access to a Lib Conclave and Telepathy. Meph can be taken as a Librarian.
- Flyers and Jump Packs can enter from reserves on T1.
- Dreads, Scouts, Terminators, Vanguard to par with SM.
- Death Company FNP improved to 4+ against Overwatch. Upgrade costs brought to par with SM Vanguard.
- Sanguinary Guard can take Storm Shields.
- Tanks can be squadroned. Access to Suppression Force, Armored Task Force, LR Spearhead.
- New Baal Predator Formation, enables Scout move.
- Inferno Pistol to 10pts.
- Access to Grav Cannons.
- Access to Land Speeder Storm.
- One Sang Priest can be be taken outside the FOC for every CAD HQ choice.
- Wings of Sanguinus no longer prevents charging in the same turn. Only eligible targets are Infantry and Jump Infantry.
- All shooting attacks against Sanguinor must be resolved as snapshots. Aura adds +1A, +1S, +1" to charge distance. Attacks become Strength D on a charge of 12". Charge distance is never affected by terrain.
- Rhinos and Razorbacks recieve Overcharged Engines for free. They cannot equip Dozer Blades.
- Augur Triangulation becomes a Chapter Tactic for Tactical Squads and Scout Squads. May be used beginning on T2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/13 18:24:24


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Why should BA get +1 to Seizing?

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Made sense to me as a shock action, blitzkrieg style army.

It's pretty important to get into the enemy's grill before you take too many losses from ranged fire.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




You can say that about a lot of armies though. I don't see why BA should have it all the time. Maybe with a character but not all the time.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




Fair enough. Removed
   
Made in de
Junior Officer with Laspistol





Why is there an obsession with the infernus pistol? That thing is a pice of gak.


Star Trek taught me so much. Like, how you should accept people, whether they be black, white, Klingon or even female...

FAQs 
   
Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




My suggestions were to make them a blizkreig army that has a lot of close combat options and abilities.

The Jump pack is a signature of the army. Relentless and furious charge allows for various builds that let them shoot and assault.

The heavy jump packs give them a new tool to beef-up some units so that they can act TWC or wulfen.

The army lacks grav cannons and centurions because i don't think it fits with their play style to have slow and purposeful units.

Granting relentless with jump packs as well as giving some jump pack oriented units access to grav guns gives BA a mobile grav platform - a 5 man assault marine squad could jump into grav range and drop 15 grav shots on a unit.

Idea behind all of this was to shift the meta of the away from codex marines and into a more unique chapter.

It's boring to move them closer to vanilla marines. They're 1 of 4 standalone marine codexes and should act like it.

Also they are some what codex astartes compliant, but i would argue they have significant differences. Differances that should be highlighted to set them appart from vanilla marines:
- They accept mutation - angel wings, primarch was effectively a mutant.
- They have a number of rituals and strange behaviors that the inquisition would question as heresy.
- The Red Thirst and Black Rage set them apart from vanilla marines. It make them more akin to SWolves.
- They don't adhere to legion numbers because DC are not included.

Ultimately there's a lot of complaining about BA and I'm suggesting that they need to move away from their current semi- standalone / semi-vanilla setup and need to embrace the fluffy play style they're supposed to have.

I could have suggested drop pods with turn 1 assault but people would have completely lost it. Plus that lends itself to many more balance issues.

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Made in ca
Journeyman Inquisitor with Visions of the Warp




- Army-wide Relentless (Decurion)
- S6 shooting on Jump Unit, wounds on Initiative, wounds at AP2 on 6's (Warp Spiders)
- Min Troop size of 3 (Scatterbikes)
- D3 HoW (DE Reavers)
- FNP available as Sgt upgrade (Red Scorpions)
- HJP: +1T, +1W, Hit and Run (TWC, White Scars)
- BA Dreads get +3" movement in all phases (Daemon of Slaneesh, but better)
- +1 to Invul Saves (Mark of Tzeentch, but better)
- Sang Guard AP2 at Initiative (Incubi, Lychguard)

BA need some tweaking but a lot of your ideas give the impression of simply cherry picking worthwhile rules from other factions, such as the 6++ save from Runic Armor, or the +1S from Wolf Claws.

So, it's something to be aware of.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/14 01:05:36


 
   
Made in ca
Possessed Khorne Marine Covered in Spikes





As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.

The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)

Once again, we march to war, for Victory or Death!

Never wake yourself at night, unless you are spying on your enemy or looking for a place to relieve yourself. - The Poetic Edda

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Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.

The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)


Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.

"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."

This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.

The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)


Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.

"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."

This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.

Space Wolves can win things can't they? Space Wolves have no grav at all.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Space Wolves have TWC and Wulfen, two things the BA have no fluff or model justification for having. They also use invis frequently, which BA also have no access to.

BA are codex compliant, and so they most have to win now the way vanilla wins, except they have none of vanilla's tools. BA need the grav cannon, and even then without skyhammer or gladius, BA would still be below average tier.
   
Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




pm713 wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As I said in my thread, you can't just take other codices stuff, put it on blood angels and call it a day. Keep everything as is, give them a decurion surrounding deep striking and jump infantry, sprinkle in some deepstrike-assaulting, relentless the turn you deepstrike, exttra jump pack infantry movement, extra flyer stuff, etc. and you're done.

The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav. It's just that people can't seem to get the idea you can win without grav So fix the formation thing, maybe some point reductions and you're good. There is really no need for unexplained warp spiders and "heavy jump packs" (what?)


Except you can't win without access to a lot of grav or lots of free stuff if you are marines.

"The only thing BA is lacking is formations and lots of grav."

This is not true. BA lack durable assault solutions. BA lack essentially every model in the game that makes vanilla marine competitive.

Space Wolves can win things can't they? Space Wolves have no grav at all.


Right cause they have amazing assault units, access to a lot of storm shields, T5 and 2W models. They are fast and can hammer the opponent in close combat.
Everything BA should be doing. But they should be doing it better, based on the fluff.

So Rather than leaving everthing as is and giving them formations, they need a new dex with new tools to get the job done.

Not everyone wants to run a decurion type detachment. I'd think a lot of people would want a dex that can run a cad, one where they can be creative and one with strong internal balance where any unit can be viable.

Hence my suggestions.

And frankly there are only so many special rules so as all armies get "decurions" there's going to be overlap.

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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Martel732 wrote:
Space Wolves have TWC and Wulfen, two things the BA have no fluff or model justification for having. They also use invis frequently, which BA also have no access to.

BA are codex compliant, and so they most have to win now the way vanilla wins, except they have none of vanilla's tools. BA need the grav cannon, and even then without skyhammer or gladius, BA would still be below average tier.

But no grav or "free stuff". So really you're point about "needing grav" isn't true. It's not like you get assault units in DC which can be updated. Assuming what you're saying is actually accurate for everyone.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.

Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.

Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"

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Locked in the Tower of Amareo




Does anyone here think that DC really deserve more rules than they already have? I don't. Jump pack meqs just aren't viable in a bike/TWC/Wraith meta.

BA need the grav because BA are stuck with meqs. And even then, they won't be that good.

Nothing the BA have is viable in a meta sense. That's why a "fix" is much trickier than anyone thinks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:
Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.

Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.

Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"


DA are still bitch-slapped by Tau so hard it's not funny.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/06/14 17:11:50


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




More ways to fix things than adding special rules.

A fix is complicated because people have different ideas of balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:

Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.
"[/quote

Where? The changes I saw were Deathwing and Azrael taking major nerfs. LSV got a little better. Weird objectives that don't really work. How did synergy improve?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/06/14 17:13:57


tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in ca
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




Martel732 wrote:
Does anyone here think that DC really deserve more rules than they already have? I don't. Jump pack meqs just aren't viable in a bike/TWC/Wraith meta.

BA need the grav because BA are stuck with meqs. And even then, they won't be that good.

Nothing the BA have is viable in a meta sense. That's why a "fix" is much trickier than anyone thinks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:
Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.

Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.

Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"


DA are still bitch-slapped by Tau so hard it's not funny.


Martel,

Everyone has a hard counter. Yes. DA and DE are at a severe disadvantage when fighting tau due to the availability of ignore cover.

You'll never have an army that is completely immune to the shenanigans of every other army. There's always a hard counter somewhere.

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There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.

Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.

SW have Wolfstars.
   
Made in us
Omnipotent Necron Overlord






Martel732 wrote:
Does anyone here think that DC really deserve more rules than they already have? I don't. Jump pack meqs just aren't viable in a bike/TWC/Wraith meta.

BA need the grav because BA are stuck with meqs. And even then, they won't be that good.

Nothing the BA have is viable in a meta sense. That's why a "fix" is much trickier than anyone thinks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Naaris wrote:
Thats what's great about Space Wolves, they don't need alies or decurions to be competative.

Dark Angels had so many unique units that all they needed were better synergies between them and they got them.

Grey Knights will need the same thing. Or do you think GK just need a decurion to be better. I'm sure a lot of GK players would lose their minds if all they got was a "decurion and some formations"


DA are still bitch-slapped by Tau so hard it's not funny.
They could do with a points decrease.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




Martel732 wrote:
There is no way to balance Tau and Eldar shooting me off the table without massive, massive changes to everything.

Vanilla marines have turned into a horde list or grav alpha strike list.

SW have Wolfstars.

Can't speak for Tau but with Eldar just make Scatter lasers 15pts and 1 per 3 models. There goes most of the firepower.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
 
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