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Lanrak wrote:
IF the rules are written focusing on game play, and every unit in each force is created with a specific tactical role , to generate over archng tactical diversity and flexibility in each faction/force.The common units in the force are the foundation the force is built on.

However, in a tactically shallow game like 40k, where the driving force is selling cool looking minatures, Irrespective of game play function and theme.
The lack of tactical depth means the cool looking minatures have to have special snowflake rules, special snow flake equipment to help sell them.

So they are actively better at the only basic function 40k focused on, than the troops selection.

if 40k had rules written focusing on game play not short term minature sales , ALL units would be viable alternatives.As they could shine at different roles the current 40k rules do not cover.

Its pretty much this.

If ONLY troops could capture objectives again and not dedicated transport and or bikes then people would need to take regular ground forces again. but as it is there is basically no reason to take that slot. asides from building formations or if they are obviously broken or strong.

not that it would change that much as the default now seems to be go full ham and kill all the things instead of capture objectives to win games.

SemperMortis wrote:
I have over 100 boyz easily and the most competitive lists I can build require none of them.

100? Newbie Try double that!

At least I play 2nd ed where they are more useful but then again there boy with no upgrades is 12 pts...Kinda hard to field all (well good thing is I paint all clans so I can find use for all the models by fielding different clans)

I went on hiatus around 5th, and admittedly wasn't an expert. I come back and jetbikes have gone from twin linked shuriken catapults with one in three shuriken Cannon as support to100% scatter laser. That's not troops, that's not fast attack, That's Heavy support. That used to be, it's supposed to be, the job of vipers and warwalkers and wraithlords.

So, the problem with scatter bikes is that they throw out a bunch of S6 shots. Would we have this problem if they were S5? How about , instead of scatterlasers, we mounted the old swooping hawk lasblaster. That gives options of 2 S4 twinlinked bladewhatever shots, 4 S5 shots, or 3 S6 blade shots.

Jetbikes as troops should be for a Samhain formation with restrictions/theme. Just like White Scars and Ravenwing, thematic formations with restrictions. Add the Iyanden wraith army and the Beltain Aspect host as well.

I missed the whole wound allocation argument, so I don't know why the rules changed on that. A tactical squad should be a heavy weapon, a special weapon, and a sergeant with ten wounds. The sergeant might be "Look out, sir!",but the heavy and special are, "gak, they got Bob. George, grab the the plasmagun". That would go a long way t add value to troops units.

Whatever happens, its needs to be adding utility/usefulness to troops, not forcing them on us like a "tax". Troops should be the anvil or the bull's head.

I feel like it would be great if troops choices were the only things that could hold objectives. that would be SO good for the game.

5th Edition got a lot right. We can nitpick and gamers always do. But ultimately, it was a success. 6th was a failure and boy did their stock price show it. 7th was a much needed improvement but missed the mark on balance issues and so we are in a situation where people show up with three Riptides and three Imperial Knights as their army.

And when that is what you are up against, it is a good time to examine your head if you're trying to fight those with basic troops.

It squeezes the troops into a position they can't ever really succed from and their ONLY role becomes objectives.

So making the Troops choices (and their vehicles?) the only thing that scores objectives would make a nice balance between the need to score Maelstroms and the need to kill faces.

It simply takes shock troops and units (elites and the like) and puts them back in their role. they don't stand on objectives all day. they kill whats on them and move ot the next target! Heavy support crushes the opposition to weaken them enough to allow troops to be effective. Thats synergy was really good in 5th.

Or bump the points of the things that shrug off troops. And the things that mulch them.

Or both. I'd love both. My Swooping Hawks aren't taking ground.

" it is a good time to examine your head if you're trying to fight those with basic troops. "

Eldar can with Windriders. Although windriders do struggle against the Riptide. The IKs are dead meat.

WaughGoff wrote:
I went on hiatus around 5th, and admittedly wasn't an expert. I come back and jetbikes have gone from twin linked shuriken catapults with one in three shuriken Cannon as support to100% scatter laser. That's not troops, that's not fast attack, That's Heavy support. That used to be, it's supposed to be, the job of vipers and warwalkers and wraithlords.

Damn figure designers made one bike, one sprue with all the options. With models first that inevitably led to that :(

Ah well. At least I get bunch of extra shuriken cannons and scatter lasers from bikes I'll get.

tneva82 wrote:

WaughGoff wrote:
I went on hiatus around 5th, and admittedly wasn't an expert. I come back and jetbikes have gone from twin linked shuriken catapults with one in three shuriken Cannon as support to100% scatter laser. That's not troops, that's not fast attack, That's Heavy support. That used to be, it's supposed to be, the job of vipers and warwalkers and wraithlords.

Damn figure designers made one bike, one sprue with all the options. With models first that inevitably led to that :(

Ah well. At least I get bunch of extra shuriken cannons and scatter lasers from bikes I'll get.

Even that could be fixed by scatterlaser upgrade from catapult being 25 pts and upgrade from cannon being 15 pts.

Martel732 wrote:
" it is a good time to examine your head if you're trying to fight those with basic troops. "

Eldar can with Windriders. Although windriders do struggle against the Riptide. The IKs are dead meat.

To be fair, scatterbikes are in one single codex and more or less are the answer to about a dozen trivia questions. So I dont think pointing out that one codex has an answer is really saying much in relation to peoples need to take troops. the Eldar may be the only codex that doesnt have the problem with troops.

Moving back to one bike per three getting one would probably fix a lot of that right up, but they would STILL be worth taking, albeit prhaps not as copiously as they are now.

Necron warriors can bring down the IKs, but are also helpless vs the Riptide. Eldar troops can put wounds on the Riptide, but not fast enough to matter, and are helpless vs the IKs. Tac marines with melta or plasma can hurt the IKs, maybe kill one, but also do practically nothing to the Riptide.

Yeah, it's not looking good for non-scatterbike troops.

I don't think it's accurate to say Scatterbikes mean one codex has the answer. If anything, the OPness of Scatter Bikes makes it even harder for other factions to use troops.

The answer to "my troops suck" shouldn't be making things like IKs and Riptides troops. It should be making things like Tacs and Kalabites useful as is.

To do that, you need to change the rules (only Troops can claim objectives), nerf the stupid (wtf does a Wraith knight cost so little), or just buff all troops to stupidity (Scatterbikes for everyone!).

I like the first two, but not the third.

Bharring wrote:
I don't think it's accurate to say Scatterbikes mean one codex has the answer. If anything, the OPness of Scatter Bikes makes it even harder for other factions to use troops.

The answer to "my troops suck" shouldn't be making things like IKs and Riptides troops. It should be making things like Tacs and Kalabites useful as is.

To do that, you need to change the rules (only Troops can claim objectives), nerf the stupid (wtf does a Wraith knight cost so little), or just buff all troops to stupidity (Scatterbikes for everyone!).

I like the first two, but not the third.

The third is the same net effect, though. It's easier to sell buffed units, too. The great nerfing is not likely to happen.

But then all non-troops are worthless, and need buffs.

Once they're buffed, why take troops? So we buff them.

And around and around we go.

Bharring wrote:
But then all non-troops are worthless, and need buffs.

Once they're buffed, why take troops? So we buff them.

And around and around we go.

I didn't make the Riptide. GW did. That's the new bar. There precious little chance GW is going to unmake it.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" it is a good time to examine your head if you're trying to fight those with basic troops. "

Eldar can with Windriders. Although windriders do struggle against the Riptide. The IKs are dead meat.

To be fair, scatterbikes are in one single codex and more or less are the answer to about a dozen trivia questions. So I dont think pointing out that one codex has an answer is really saying much in relation to peoples need to take troops. the Eldar may be the only codex that doesnt have the problem with troops.

Moving back to one bike per three getting one would probably fix a lot of that right up, but they would STILL be worth taking, albeit prhaps not as copiously as they are now.

Then again is it really good situation for eldar either if only thing that's worth taking is one unit that didn't even use to be troop and only went there to sell more kits...

Whatabout guardians for example? Those are supposed to be core of most eldar armies after all...

Windriders were troops in the 6e codex, before the new kits.

Not that they should be troops. Just correcting the history.

Jancoran wrote:So making the Troops choices (and their vehicles?) the only thing that scores objectives would make a nice balance between the need to score Maelstroms and the need to kill faces.

Why only troops? And why all troops?

Why shouldn't sternguard with Pedro Kantor on the field be able to hold objectives? Sternguard are just (really badass) power armored marines with fancy boltguns.

Why not assault marines on foot? Is a power armored space marine somehow less adapted to holding an objective if he's holding a chainsword rather than a boltgun? Why is he inherently inferior at holding an objective than a marine in white power armor on a bike or a pointy eared space elf on a hover bike?

I agree with the basic sentiment (only certain classes of things should be able to hold objectives), but disagree with the precise way of going about it (all and only troops).

Change that to "infantry and dedicated transports for infantry," and we're in agreement.

 jreilly89 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Plus half range so unless you have incredible luck you're going to be charged. Guess how good Windriders are in combat.

Yeah, except either A) there's nothing left to assault you because you killed it or B) you use your Assault move and jump away.

Unless you take a big unit that's a huge exaggeration of power. Right with the 2d6. So anything with good movement catches you easily.

Why have only Infantry hold objectives? What stops my Wraithlord or my Black Knights holding it? That seems like a really poor system as it basically says "feth you" to anyone who plays an army like Ravenwing.

pm713 wrote:Unless you take a big unit that's a huge exaggeration of power. Right with the 2d6. So anything with good movement catches you easily.

Scatter lasers have a 36 inch range. Scatter bikes are relentless. And they essentially have battle focus.

Why on earth are they going to be in close combat?

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Unless you take a big unit that's a huge exaggeration of power. Right with the 2d6. So anything with good movement catches you easily.

Scatter lasers have a 36 inch range. Scatter bikes are relentless. And they essentially have battle focus.

Why on earth are they going to be in close combat?

Talking about shuriken catapults here. Pay attention.

pm713 wrote:Talking about shuriken catapults here. Pay attention.

Oh, yeah. Those things aren't a threat. They should cost more than 17 ppm, but I don't think anyone has any real cause to be particularly concerned about them.

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Talking about shuriken catapults here. Pay attention.

Oh, yeah. Those things aren't a threat. They should cost more than 17 ppm, but I don't think anyone has any real cause to be particularly concerned about them.

They ARE indeed a threat. Just not the crazy threat level of scatterlasers.

Bharring wrote:
Windriders were troops in the 6e codex, before the new kits.

Not that they should be troops. Just correcting the history.

Well kits were designed already so...

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Talking about shuriken catapults here. Pay attention.

Oh, yeah. Those things aren't a threat. They should cost more than 17 ppm, but I don't think anyone has any real cause to be particularly concerned about them.

They ARE indeed a threat. Just not the crazy threat level of scatterlasers.

It's not THAT much of a threat. It's a Marine Bike but slightly better.

Per point vs a naked Marine bike, maybe.

Per model? No.

Vs kitted Marine bikes? No.

They're a little better than they should be. But worse gun, less tough, no CC threat, no special weapons. They have more mobility, though. Marine bikes are a little better than naked Windriders.

Of course kitted Windrenders blow the snot out of Marine bikes. But we're talking naked.

Martel732 wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

pm713 wrote:Talking about shuriken catapults here. Pay attention.

Oh, yeah. Those things aren't a threat. They should cost more than 17 ppm, but I don't think anyone has any real cause to be particularly concerned about them.

They ARE indeed a threat. Just not the crazy threat level of scatterlasers.

Let me correct myself:

Against my army, unless my opponent only runs windrider bikes and ends up having over 100 of them, they are not a threat.

I'm not afraid of a strength 4, AP 5, assault 2 bladestorm weapon at 12 inch range. I don't care if it's on jet bike or not.

And if windrider bikes were correctly priced (around 21-23 ppm), they wouldn't even be a threat if my opponent spammed them (assuming catapults, of course).

Bharring wrote:
I don't think it's accurate to say Scatterbikes mean one codex has the answer. If anything, the OPness of Scatter Bikes makes it even harder for other factions to use troops.

The answer to "my troops suck" shouldn't be making things like IKs and Riptides troops. It should be making things like Tacs and Kalabites useful as is.

To do that, you need to change the rules (only Troops can claim objectives), nerf the stupid (wtf does a Wraith knight cost so little), or just buff all troops to stupidity (Scatterbikes for everyone!).

I like the first two, but not the third.

Tactical Marines are still garbage though because Scouts and Bikers exist.

... and most of the troops in the game are garbage as long as Tac Marines exist.

There sure is a lot that needs fixing.

Bharring wrote:
... and most of the troops in the game are garbage as long as Tac Marines exist.

There sure is a lot that needs fixing.

I find that I've really underestimed the ability of tac marines in the past. I recently played a 2 v 2 (500 points per player) where I used tac squads with missile launchers and plasma cannon and a dev squad with missile launchers and lascannons, and one of the opponents was using Imperial Guard infantry.

Tac marines are terrible if you run them naked.

In a rhino with special weapon, or if you give them a lascannon, plasma cannon or missile launcher, and you put them in cover...?

Not so much.

Long story short: I like watching imperial guardsmen explode from frag missile and plasma cannon blasts.

Bharring wrote:
... and most of the troops in the game are garbage as long as Tac Marines exist.

There sure is a lot that needs fixing.

I'm not so sure about this. Maybe in a vacuum, but with the plethora of weapons that ignore both 3+ and T4, I'm thinking it's better to just give up fewer points per model removed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:

Bharring wrote:
... and most of the troops in the game are garbage as long as Tac Marines exist.

There sure is a lot that needs fixing.

I find that I've really underestimed the ability of tac marines in the past. I recently played a 2 v 2 (500 points per player) where I used tac squads with missile launchers and plasma cannon and a dev squad with missile launchers and lascannons, and one of the opponents was using Imperial Guard infantry.

Tac marines are terrible if you run them naked.

In a rhino with special weapon, or if you give them a lascannon, plasma cannon or missile launcher, and you put them in cover...?

Not so much.

Long story short: I like watching imperial guardsmen explode from frag missile and plasma cannon blasts.

A single heavy and single special means nothing in the games I play. I'm sucking down 30+ scatterlasers a turn against Eldar. I'm sucking down dozens and dozens of S5 and 3-4 AP2 pie plates against Tau plus D-misisles. Tacticals might as well be spanking off on the battlefield. At least when the Tau pie plate guardsmen, they are actually falling behind on point efficiency. Tacs are still terrible in cover because Tau and scatterlasers ignore it and the tacs return no meaningful fire.