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Using ITC Rules for army building as the basis I've been working on for my theory. I've put together an assessment of Harlequins played from a different angle. Between 60-100% of my army is Harlequins as a personal play style. I am totally open to fielding allies( which I will note does not thoroughly include "The Great Troupe" into the list building). I'm pretty sure someone may have done this but I've never seen anything on it, so hats off to ya.

Alot of people play Harlequins as a single formation, allied formation, or a mix of any combination provided below. Generally with Harlequin's, the Independent Characters are the focal point with upgrades and models added to units across the board. It ain't cheap either.

So what am I on about?
Easy, How do I pay my clowns as little as possible but still get a great performance?

A serious Harlequin player knows 1 thing, no matter what the armies are Harlequins only lose to the dice.
How you build your Quinns and the formations you take makes you more susceptible to Battlefield setup loss(zone type, deploy 1st/2nd(warlord traits) that's fine, happens to us all. We have things to hurt everyone but flyers(or just 6 it to death). There's too many important saves(or hits) to make because of Independent Characters. Throwing too much into 1 unit is a devastating points loss.

So I compared the formations and such, as well as the individual models/units. I looked at total dakka, strength of the dakka and how much that dakka cost. The outcome of best available combination that allows for the most while paying the least is a Masque + Masque.

Harlequins have 3 big formations and 4 little formations.
Cegorach's Revenge 1065(1 use only, can't combine these)
The Serpent's Brood 770
Masque 500

Faolchus Blade 275
Cegorach's Jest 270
The Hero's Path 265(1 use only, can't combine these)
Cast of Players 215

Comparing on the Charts this gives you 6 5man troupes, 4 fast attacks of your choice and 2 Seperate Voidweaver units for at least 1000 points. That leaves you with up to 1000 points depending on your game size for:
The 14 optional Elites.
The 6 optional dedicated transports
Unit upgrades
Allied Detachment/Formation
3rd Harlequin Formation

What's the point to all of it?
The point is, you're so basic it's almost laughable. While the weakness to it is a purely kill points game against that 3 unit army guy, which harlequins already have the nurgle side of the stick with, we capitalize on it by adding more and spreading out lol.

The List I'm currently running as my standard Double Masque or even a ....Grand Masque:
Masquex2 (1649 pts)
1xTroupe 3 Caress's, Starmist Raiment
2xTroupe 3 Caress's, Starweaver(D.T.)
3xTroupe 3 Caress's
4xStarweaver
2x Voidweaver. prismatic cannon (1319 pts)

Solitaire. Cegorach's Rose, Haywire Grenade
Shadowseer. Mask of Secrets
Shadowseer
+Haywire Grenade to Troupes (330pts)

While I'm still experimenting with it, it has played really well. I'd like to test out some heretical ally combinations like Harlequins and Dark Angels or Knights but that's for later.

The basic strategy is a very aggressive assualt:
Roll on the light table for possible +4 seize, D3 deepstrike, scout, infiltrate or WL+D3 units redeploy after scout. This gives you better odds with your deployment set up in either advancing or moving back to prevent getting charged first.
By embarking all 6 Troupes you present 8 targets instead of 14. Taking all wounds on a 4+Invul Mirage Launchers/ armor 10 instead of a 5+ Invul toughness 3.
You can pull off first round charges by having them in the transports first.(circumstance)
You can 30 inch move your whole army to off set your enemy.
Turn 2 assualts are guaranteed if unmolested.(42inches+run+charge, 78 Caress attacks)
High Spread of small units.
6 more Str6 ap5 Bladestorm shots per transport (helpful for flyers)

Anyways that's all I got for now. Nah it's not a game breaker and there's a couple more ideas I have lined up to test out... but right now the double masque is where it's at for how cheap it is with all the customization you could want.

Hmmmmm
A Masque+Serpents Brood+Hero's Path looks like it could be an evil combo, if expensive.

How do you manage T1 charges?

 Massaen wrote:
How do you manage T1 charges?

It can be circumstantial because of deployment set up and seize the initiative etc and the army you are fighting but

Starweaver 6 inch move
Troupe 6 inch disembark (from any point on the hull)
12inch charge with fleet rerolls
That's a potential 24inch move

Disembark is wholly within 6" and has been for all of 7th ed so the max threat T1 is 24"

 Massaen wrote:
Disembark is wholly within 6" and has been for all of 7th ed so the max threat T1 is 24"

Yeah I added the extra 2 for those more relax with measuring or eyeballing it. If you wanna measure exact which I do when playing seriously it'll be 24 by the book


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The shape of the vehicle being open topped allows for a bit of a pivot for best effect when you measure from any point on the hull

 Blitzen the Solitaire wrote:

 Massaen wrote:
Disembark is wholly within 6" and has been for all of 7th ed so the max threat T1 is 24"

Yeah I added the extra 2 for those more relax with measuring or eyeballing it. If you wanna measure exact which I do when playing seriously it'll be 24 by the book


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The shape of the vehicle being open topped allows for a bit of a pivot for best effect when you measure from any point on the hull

You can also get more distance with one of the warlord traits with the added movement distance for the squad

I think you are missing the best parts of the codex myself and using the worst!

The Solitaire is terrible. Like garbage. I only use mine in the revenge and that's because I have to. I run him naked in that case and leave him to it.

Not using the Sky Weaver bikes is a crime! These are the pure gold of the force in my mind. Yes they are a touch over priced (50ppm with free upgrades is where they should be) but they are so flexible and reliable. Its this reliability that makes then so good. They don't rely only lucky 6's to win combats and their shooting is consistent as is the way the move. Throw them in a Falchou's blade and they really shine - especially in numbers. I have been toying with a double blade plus masque at 1850 which features 6 units of bikes!

Also - Death Jesters and Shadows seers (lvl2) are both very solid choices.

Lastly, for combat weapons on troupes - after many games I think I will almost always exclusively run with the kiss. Its reliable has good threat range in terms of targets for it and is cheap enough for everyone to have them. Haywire grenades on the master just in case.

 Massaen wrote:
I think you are missing the best parts of the codex myself and using the worst!

The Solitaire is terrible. Like garbage. I only use mine in the revenge and that's because I have to. I run him naked in that case and leave him to it.

Not using the Sky Weaver bikes is a crime! These are the pure gold of the force in my mind. Yes they are a touch over priced (50ppm with free upgrades is where they should be) but they are so flexible and reliable. Its this reliability that makes then so good. They don't rely only lucky 6's to win combats and their shooting is consistent as is the way the move. Throw them in a Falchou's blade and they really shine - especially in numbers. I have been toying with a double blade plus masque at 1850 which features 6 units of bikes!

Also - Death Jesters and Shadows seers (lvl2) are both very solid choices.

Lastly, for combat weapons on troupes - after many games I think I will almost always exclusively run with the kiss. Its reliable has good threat range in terms of targets for it and is cheap enough for everyone to have them. Haywire grenades on the master just in case.

I dont disagree with you at all about the individual units themselves.

This post is more a showing of how to produce a cheap "usually reliable" Harlequin only force with the flexibility to turn it into exactly what you state.

I took great pains when considering the forces in this. I'm actually looking at running a Double Blade Masque in the future for fun. Here's what I was thinking.

Solitaire with Rose and Haywire- I only take him because people think he's scary and focus on him. Which is a great place to take str6+ wounds on a 3++ eternal warrior . The more they focus on him during round 1. The more transports that cross no man's land. Awesome haywire thrower.
He also keeps the match fun when you find an opponent who is just as keen to go toe to toe with their Bloodthirster or Ghazghul.
I'm one of the few who truly believe Cegorach is the most influential being in WH40K. So he's been nice to my Solitaire from time to time.

When you compare the points cost to the wounds, saves and weapons when fielding a Masque over a Blade... you just get more.

You must also consider the # of units being fielded. Every formation has its own specials and cool way to use them but a simple Masque allows me to take everything you do and more. Which matters when an opponent must make hard decisions on who to target. An unmolested troupe with 3 Caress's is still 13 swings with 6's to hit auto wound ap2(and glance av14+)and 8 str4 ap- at init 7/6 over 2 str3 ap- how, 8 str5 ap2 at init6

The armies at their basic:
Blade, Blade, Masque(max army builder limit per ITC)
3 troupes, 6 skyweavers, 3 void. 1100 points
Optional- 3 Starweavers, 7 Elites.
--750pts upgrades

Double masque
6 troupes, 4 Skyweavers or Starweavers, 2 void. 1000-1060pts
Optional- 6 Starweavers, 14 elites
790-850pts upgrades
I'll add a Blade now giving me
6troupes, 6 skyweavers(4skyw or4starw.) 3void. 1275-1335pts
Optional-6 Starweavers, 14 elites
515-575pts upgrades.

You also give up your 6 str6 ap5 Bladestorm shots when you charge in. I do not. Unmolested Starweavers that have disembarked troupes remain mobile weapons platforms.
They have the same 4++ mirage and take it on a av10 with access to 2+ cover that skyweavers can get instead of a tough4 . You can 6 inch disembark shadowseers first 12 inch move Starweavers and cast psychics on them for when they turboboost


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Trust me, it feels nice to play Harlequins and be able to say things like:
"One of my units was just destroyed? Meh that doesn't matter"
"All my transports are wrecked... doesn't change anything"
"Look I have more than 15 models on the table"
A 40+ Model Force of Harlequins on the board is quite a show


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Ah I forgot to mention the charge capability for the units

Skyweavers will always be a 12inch move 2d6 charge with no fleet

Troupe on transport
6inch move, 6 inch disembark, D6run(turn2+)(+1d6 if crusader) 2d6 charge with fleet.

Even on a turn 1 charge they are equal max charge distance. Unless it's troupe with WL trait +1 to all moves even then troupe still has fleet for charge

I just spotted the issue - we disagree on the troupes and star weavers.

I think star weavers are fine gun boats but utterly terrible transports

Troupes must be 8+ models and a shadow seer to start in my experience

 Massaen wrote:
I just spotted the issue - we disagree on the troupes and star weavers.

I think star weavers are fine gun boats but utterly terrible transports

Troupes must be 8+ models and a shadow seer to start in my experience

Its not really that I disagree, I'm just supporting a way to field more. I think of Harlequins as more of a "build to the task" type of army and sometimes more bikes is the way to go. But what's the basic force for harlequins that'll perform well on average and has the most flexibility to be modified? Sure others work too, Cegorach's Revenge rerolls are pretty awesome. There's no flexibility to make changes tho.

Here it's about the cost to task, your bikes work. I just field more stuff and less susceptible to losing "big units".... as I have none.
Everything I field is so basic it'll confuse your opponents. They're looking for a punchline and not getting it until 6starweavers with 6 5man troupes with 13 Caress swings each (+3venoms or vypers with 3 more troupes if you take "The Great Troupe") come flying across that board turn 1 because they eyeballed my scary solitaire and voidweavers instead of my basic troupes in my basic transports but that's how I play it.

In the end, the joke of it all is:
As long as you can field a Masque, you can field that masque as any of the other formations.
You can turn 1 masque into 3 formations, or simply call it a Revenge or Brood.

Every formation is just a part of the Masque...

So when people ask for a basic Harlequin force (how do I make a Harlequin army) I'll tell them make a double masque. Play Harlequins in a way that'd do a green tide proud. At 1000 points for 2 basic masques (which is quite a potent force. I wish I could take 3) that's alot of room to swap out and play/run whatever you want.
Will it work for everything or better than some others? Probably not, but it'll work most the time and itll feel like you have an actual army instead of a small force. One you can easily change to another formation combo.

I am not convicted you can make a viable double masque work at 1850 - can you share a list perhaps? Complete?

Note, by the FAQ, you can't do any pivot tricks to gain inches. No part of the vehicle can end its move further than the vehicle's maximum move distance - and pivoting counts as part of that move, even if it doesn't use any movement rate! As such, the only way possible for a Turn 1 charge is to get the Warlord Trait that allows an extra 1" of move on every move.

As for everything else, Harlequins are cool because a lot of stuff in the force is very skill-dependent, meaning there's a big divide on how people value certain parts based on their skill level. I love my Solitaire because as a single small model he's very easy to hide from LOS (literally avoided a Dark Eldar Raider and crew's shooting once by hiding behind a pre-GMC Wraithknight's leg). He's also useful at helping to take down some of my opponent's heaviest hitters (he's almost killed 2 Imperial Knights solo), and against non-Space Marine opponents he can route and run down just about any unit of Infantry he touches.

Solitaires are massively overrated. They don't delete whole squads and die in assaults easily enough since ultimately they are 3 T3 wounds with 3+ Saves. Even being hit on 5+ means little.

20 attacks at S4 means 1-2 unsaved wounds every time.

Against basic bolters he just dies. 20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds and BAM - dead

 Yarium wrote:
Note, by the FAQ, you can't do any pivot tricks to gain inches. No part of the vehicle can end its move further than the vehicle's maximum move distance - and pivoting counts as part of that move, even if it doesn't use any movement rate! As such, the only way possible for a Turn 1 charge is to get the Warlord Trait that allows an extra 1" of move on every move.

As for everything else, Harlequins are cool because a lot of stuff in the force is very skill-dependent, meaning there's a big divide on how people value certain parts based on their skill level. I love my Solitaire because as a single small model he's very easy to hide from LOS (literally avoided a Dark Eldar Raider and crew's shooting once by hiding behind a pre-GMC Wraithknight's leg). He's also useful at helping to take down some of my opponent's heaviest hitters (he's almost killed 2 Imperial Knights solo), and against non-Space Marine opponents he can route and run down just about any unit of Infantry he touches.

Yeah being very specific about it it will be 24inch possible as a base.

There's a few other tricks I've used to get those T1 charges.
Dawn of War deployments
Trick of the Light warlord trait

Yeah you'll never get to those deployment edge people, but there's ways to make a T1 charge with Harlequin's from time to time.


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 Massaen wrote:
Solitaires are massively overrated. They don't delete whole squads and die in assaults easily enough since ultimately they are 3 T3 wounds with 3+ Saves. Even being hit on 5+ means little.

20 attacks at S4 means 1-2 unsaved wounds every time.

Against basic bolters he just dies. 20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds and BAM - dead

I agree, he has a solid chance of dying to garbage. I've lost mine to 3 guardsmen in close combat that did exactly 3 wounds on a Cegorach's Revenge Solitaire and rolled 3 2's and died.

However he is a perfect distraction. Especially when your opponent sees a solo infantry character do a 12inch move (that scares them)


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 Massaen wrote:
I am not convicted you can make a viable double masque work at 1850 - can you share a list perhaps? Complete?

The list I posted in the original post as my standard Double masque is what I've been using recently. With both lvl1 shadowseers running telepathy for Psychic Shriek.

Here is a 2nd list im working on that includes some bikes and runs 0 Independent Characters

+++ The Grand Masque (1848pts) +++

++ Harlequins - Codex (EH Masque Detachment) ++

+ Troops +

Troupe [Starweaver]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades, Shuriken Pistol, The Starmist Raiment]

Troupe [Starweaver]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades, Shuriken Pistol]

+ Fast Attack +

Skyweavers
····Skyweaver [Shuriken Cannon, Star Bolas]
····Skyweaver [Shuriken Cannon, Star Bolas]

Starweaver

+ Heavy Support +

Voidweavers
····Voidweaver [Prismatic cannon]

++ Harlequins - Codex (EH Masque Detachment) ++

+ Troops +

Troupe [Starweaver]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades, Shuriken Pistol]

Troupe
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
····Troupe Master [Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades, Shuriken Pistol]

+ Fast Attack +

Starweaver

Starweaver

+ Heavy Support +

Voidweavers
····Voidweaver [Prismatic cannon]

++ Harlequins - Codex (Formation Detachment) ++

+ Formation +

Cegorach's Jest
····Skyweavers
········Skyweaver [Shuriken Cannon, Zephyrglaive]
········Skyweaver [Shuriken Cannon, Zephyrglaive]
····Troupe [Starweaver]
········Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
········Player [Harlequin's Caress, Shuriken Pistol]
········Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
········Player [Close combat weapon, Shuriken Pistol]
········Troupe Master [Crescendo, Harlequin's Caress, Haywire grenades]
····Voidweavers
········Voidweaver [Prismatic cannon]

Created with BattleScribe


That leaves me with 18 units. The whole army hiding behind 4+ invul mirage launchers for turn 1 and everything goes against tough4 or av10.
CC:
91 possible Caress attacks. 56 regular
8 possible str5 ap2 attacks.

Shooting:
72 Str6ap5 Bladestorm shots
3 prismatic cannons
35 str4ap5 Bladestorm shots
7haywire
2star Bolas
the only unit it hurts to lose in this army is the Warlord and his 3+ Starmist Raiment.



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I want to try The Great Troupe variant. Fielding
9 Troupes
6 Starweavers
3 Venoms
3 voidweavers

The Great Troupe itself is a great way to field additional skyweavers as well as it allows for 3 Harlequin "units"
You could look at doing a Blade, Blade, Great Troupe for:
7 bikes
2 Voidweavers
3 Vypers. At base 970pts.

A basic double masque and G.T. going all bikes and vypers would with no starweaavers would put you at 1540

 Massaen wrote:
Solitaires are massively overrated. They don't delete whole squads and die in assaults easily enough since ultimately they are 3 T3 wounds with 3+ Saves. Even being hit on 5+ means little.

20 attacks at S4 means 1-2 unsaved wounds every time.

Against basic bolters he just dies. 20 shots, 14 hits, 9 wounds and BAM - dead

How do you account for the fact that the Hero's Path is the only Harlequin detachment you see in competitive play? The Solitaire - despite the fact that as you point out, he can be killed - is generally considered the best thing in the codex, especially when he gets Stealth/Shroud and Infiltrate.

I've been running masque+hero's path for a long time with great success, and I can share written batreps with my experiences playing it against most of the common competitive lists of various armies if you're interested. I can usually get surprisingly good results against the likes of scatbike/wraithknight eldar, decurion and suitspam tau.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
To me, there are a couple really high power low investment units from the other eldar armies that make allies almost always worth it to include in a harlequin focused force.

For Eldar, that's a bike Autarch with mask and either shard or laser lance (sooooo good when added to skyweavers) and the Hemlock wraithfighter. And for dark eldar, it's basically the contents of the Start Collecting box: Reavers, Archon with various equipment, and raiders are excellent for Harlequins.

Because heroes path is not bought for the solitaire - it's for the shadow seer.

Yes the durability when in cover goes up for the solitaire but the shadow seer is a huge asset thanks to the same durability and the psychic attacks he provides. The DJ has similar effects and options. All the solitaire does is charge and hope not to die

Well, I suppose it's a difference in experience. I can see how the Solitaire would not be fantastic when paired with a foot harlequin list since he would tend to run ahead of everything, but when everything in your list has a standard 24" threat range after turn 2 (as mine does) he's a fantastic asset with his 3+ (or 2+ if he's in cover) save.

I frequently see the Solitaire be worth far more than his 145 point cost. Are you using his double weaponry correctly? I only ask because a lot of people have the incorrect interpretation of how his kiss and caress interact, which was actually cleared up with the FAQ (there was a question about weapons with the rule type 'a model equipped with this weapon' which the Solitaire's weaponry has, and essentially the answer was that you gain the effects of that kind of weaponry even if it isn't what you've declared you're using in CC.) So he does get the benefit of having both the Kiss and Caress in melee.

In my own experience, I tend to find that when I've dismissed something as not useful, it's because I haven't been playing it correctly (either tactically or rules-wise) or because I haven't properly structured my army build to make use of it. It has often been the case that I've just decided somehting isn't my style anyway, like foot harly lists, they work, I just don't prefer them. But at the same time, I've heard plenty of good stuff about the Solitaire from players I trust and my personal experience with him has him frequently pulling as one of my most valuable units.

Guess we are going to disagree on him - he is 50 points to expensive for what he is.

He dies to even a middling volume of attacks and his output is pitiful for his cost vs meq - 2-3 kills for 145 points is woeful.

I have been very successful so far with my revenge (on foot!) at 1500 with a top 5 finish 3/1/0 at a 64 player event and he is the only model I wish I did not have to take

Yep, he's like a better version of an imperial assassin, basically. His strength is his ability to get into combat - something Harlequins can struggle with - and his ability to damage pretty much anything regardless of toughness and vehicle status. Exposing him to massed small arms fire, or using him against bog standard troops is pretty much the least optimal use for him. When I've used him in the past, he tends to be the most useful either taking on a big scary enemy character or monstrous creature, or shepherding in Harlequin troupes who want to get into melee but don't want to eat overwatch, where his inclusion allows me to have a brutal challenge character and a near-guaranteed sweep with his initiative.

It sounds more like we both have success with the army with just a difference in playstyle, and it definitely sounds like the solitaire would mesh more with mine than yours. I run Masque+Hero's+Dark Eldar/Craftworld allies for a fast moving melee list with a bit of freakshow elements mixed in to deal quickly with hard targets.

I am curious what kind of answers your foot harlequins would have to something like an optimized screamerstar or a flyrant heavy tyranid list. Have you gone up against those? I ask because I have less experience against either with my own list, but I have a theoretical plan in place (I've faced flyrant 'nids only once, and a single big tactical error on my opponent's part basically won the game for me by letting me drop an Archangel of Pain+Mask of Secrets into a whole bunch of valuable units who I got out of synapse range)

the_scotsman wrote:
The Solitaire - despite the fact that as you point out, he can be killed - is generally considered the best thing in the codex, especially when he gets Stealth/Shroud and Infiltrate.
.

I thought most people agreed that the Shadowseer was the best part, what with the fleshbane melee, amazing support/offensive powers (seriously, veil of tears is amazing. Play against Tau and watch them weep), access to the amazing mask of secrets, and to top it all off, is pretty cheap for all the awesomeness you get with her.

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The Solitaire - despite the fact that as you point out, he can be killed - is generally considered the best thing in the codex, especially when he gets Stealth/Shroud and Infiltrate.
.

I thought most people agreed that the Shadowseer was the best part, what with the fleshbane melee, amazing support/offensive powers (seriously, veil of tears is amazing. Play against Tau and watch them weep), access to the amazing mask of secrets, and to top it all off, is pretty cheap for all the awesomeness you get with her.

Either one. Shadowseers are better in foot harly lists for sure, in my lists they tend to just be basic psychic shriekers with below average toughness.

Compare them to Farseers with their bike option, cheap high strength melee weapon that comes with a high strength shooting attack, stock ML3, better saves...etc etc etc, and I'm a little less impressed. Sure the farseers cost more, but they bring a lot of bang for your buck as well as reliability with the ghosthelm.

SS's seem just a little bit unfocused if I had any complaint about them. I tend to use them most effectively when paired with a webway portal archon or with the mask in Hero's Path just shrieking stuff. When I play foot harlies, yeah, I generally pair 'em with some Eldar and use 5 elite slots on Shadowseers with one jester, and they're gold. but when the clowns are mounted up most of my psychic support comes from the Craftworld.

Not a Harley player, but definitely a fan, and may one day pick up the army.

Just wanted to pop in and mention how awesomely civil this tactics thread is.

Carry on!

StevetheDestroyeOfWorlds wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
The Solitaire - despite the fact that as you point out, he can be killed - is generally considered the best thing in the codex, especially when he gets Stealth/Shroud and Infiltrate.
.

I thought most people agreed that the Shadowseer was the best part, what with the fleshbane melee, amazing support/offensive powers (seriously, veil of tears is amazing. Play against Tau and watch them weep), access to the amazing mask of secrets, and to top it all off, is pretty cheap for all the awesomeness you get with her.

But in a Heroes' Path, the Shadowseer can only cast Veil of Tears on herself. It's not even half as useful as it is when you put her in a Masque, Cast of Players or Revenge.

I've always found the Solitaire ends up being worth taking one way or another. It usually kills or ties up a unit.

Shadowseers are amazing. Unfortunately they are still susceptible to so many things.

Veil of tears just got even better which might make them more valuable but that's for reassessment

The shadowseer can be easily negated or made useless. It's still just a T3 model and a 5+invul at its base.
I'm not saying don't take them, as I still do take them myself.

Which is exceedingly easy to do:
Double Masque:
6 Troupes
4 Starweavers
2 Voidweavers (1000 pts)
14 Lvl1 Shadowseers (840pts)
26 units- how many can you target in 1 round?

I look at it like this.
3 shadowseers = 180pts (6 wounds, 3shots, 15 cc attacks+psychic) T3 5+invul
2 Troupes = 190 pts (12wounds, 10 shots, 42 cc attacks) T3 5+invul.
You are putting alot more into 1 model in the hopes everything pans out and the dice are on your side.

I won't ever say they don't work, because they do but more often then not you spend more time concerned with your Independent Characters and how to protect them or get them where you need them.

The idea is this.
Most harlequin armies are initially built with the Independent Characters as the focus.
You spend alot of time and effort trying to bring those powers to the fore, for best effect and end up building around those powers.

Try completely removing Independent Characters from your harlequin list. Maximize the formation benefit and the total # of units not models.
Problem harlequins have are:
Ignores cover
Str6+ wounds
Receiving 10+ shots on a 5+invul

The real power in Harlequins is in the basic units. The more of those you have, the better. T3 is way to weak for too many points for those 1 trick ponies that have the same saves as your regular infantry. The Independent Characters are everything people claim them to be (good and bad) because they are very susceptible to Battlefield setup, the army you face and the dice gods all at once. That's alot to put into hoping for certain situations.

Make them dump all of their shots into 3-4 units and you still have completely untouched units crossing the board. You need to be real lucky to pop 6 different 2hp av10 4+invul mirage launchers in turn 1 (anything can happen tho)
It isn't about saying they are stronger etc, there's just more of them with exactly what you need to still do the same job, with plenty of points left over to decide on upgrades or allies.

The double masque is your most basic functional Harlequin army with flexibility to be geared towards heavy vehicles or heavy infantry.


I'm going to start another thread on THE GREAT TROUPE.
But I will mention here that besides being an Apocalypse formation, it allows for UNLIMITED Harlequins in any way, shape or form.
""3+"" Units of Harlequins
3 Venoms or Vypers (120pts base)


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In essence,

The worst thing you can do with a Harlequin army is Max out the points of each unit.

12 man troupe maxed out for 49 Caress attacks and 12 str1 2+ to wound ap2 shots sounds great until you see it cost 420 points for that 1 Toughness 3 5+invul unit. (2+cover is awesome tho, but who ignores cover right?)

It's the same theory with independent characters.

Tell me a 5man troupe with 3 Caress's getting into close combat with anything, anything at all that's not init6/7+ is a bad thing. I'd say that's worth 120pts.

Yet IC or not, we still are completely susceptible to the dice gods.


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A real Laugh of Sorrows: goes off on 2 charges, doesn't get denied. Witch fire hits on 3+...whew. Accepts -2 leadership from Mask of Secrets LD8now.
1st Test-Rolls 2,6
2nd Test-Rolls 4,4

Commence Sorrows

I really like the fact people are talking about harlies - I do - and I don't want to deter you... but...

While I get the way you are looking at the troupe vs shadowseer - I think its a misguided view.

You cant compare them in a vacuum like you have - it presents a very lopsided view (plus your numbers are wrong to boot!)

How about the fact that a shadowseer (lvl2) can move into range, shriek and veil then run out of the 24" range - becoming completely immune to anything more than 24" away. Completely immune. If something gets to less than 24" the chance of him taking hits is remote until they are almost on top of him. What about his ability to engage just about any threat with just his basic gear?

The troupes as you have described them are terrible if you look at them in this context right? We both know they are not but I hope this illustrates the flaw in your presented argument.

In your double masque (6 troupe, 4 star weavers, 2 void weavers - 1000pts) plus the 14 shadow seers - again this is a bad argument. You know its a bad list so presenting it as you have is flawed. The troupes are useless, the shadow seers are ok in a single unit (or 2) but the troupes have no bite for the seers to support.

Your listed problems for harlies are also interesting...

Ignores cover? No issue with built in 5++ army wide or better
S6 wounds? No issue with 2+ LOS and 5++
receiving 10+ shots - this is an issue in your builds but my foot troupes almost never see this sort of fire levelled at them unless its on overwatch and at that point its far to late for the enemy

You say that the IC are to reliant on dice - I disagree. They are force multipliers and need to be factored in and run as such. Its why I run a seer as my warlord - consistency. I know I have 1 of 3 warlord traits and can build a list that makes use of any of them rather than hoping for one of the cool ones. It gives me the ability to run away from a unit in danger or shift the warlord trait to another unit who might be at fuller strength - the possibilities are endless!

The double masque is not an efficient way of skimmer spam - play dark elder for that!

You also seem to think Caress are the best - they aren't IMO. One or 2 per unit is enough - the Kiss is far and away the best since its the most reliable. That's the trick to harlequins - finding a way to run them with reliable results

Just wanted to make note for you: Per the new FAQ, there is no longer an "implied" to-hit roll for psychic powers that don't have a specified method to hit.

They hit automatically. This is big because we have two powers like that: Laugh of Sorrows and the big beast of harlequin powers, Mirror of Minds. Shadowseers got a big buff in reliability after that ruling, making psychic shriek additionally even more beastly.

@Massaen: I consistently find the caress to be the most reliable means of doing damage with a harlequin troupe. A Harlequin with a Kiss deals 2/3 high strength AP2 HITS, a harlequin with a Caress deals 2/3 autowounds. At the very least, every troupe master with the extra attack should get a Caress, but I do tend to run one troupe with all caresses to knock out heavy stuff.

How do you get 2/3 auto wounds when they hit 4/6 which of which 1of those 4 auto wounds

I agree the troupe leader should likely have one but the kiss is reliable and efficient for the players

The math:

A harlequin with a kiss makes 1 attack with its kiss. against most opponents, this hits on a 3+ (2/3 chance). And then, against most opponents, it wounds on a 2+.

A harlequin with a caress makes 4 attacks on the charge. No matter what the to hit roll required is, the chances of an auto-wound or HP is 1/6 *4 = 2/3 chance.

The caress is 3 points cheaper, but less reliable because it's possible that it needs to hit on a 4+ (or 5+ in cases of blind, invisibility, whatever) and because it needs to wound/pen. It really drops off against vehicles where that chance to penetrate is a baseline of 50%.

There's also the other big reason I heavily favor squads with all one weapon: the ability to fully take advantage of the secondary effects. A 3-kiss, 2 caress squad is not going to be able to do very much at all against a walker or a vehicle with rear armor 11 or better because the kisses will hold them back. But a full caress squad will reliably drop 3.5HP on whatever you want (I even frequently up that squad to six to get the average above 4HP, since I usually invest in a Starmist to protect them anyway).

By contrast, a full kiss squad is better at monster hunting because five kisses have over a 50% chance of dropping an instant death wound on something. For a squad with mixed weapons, that's something that will happen occasionally, but not nearly reliably enough to make any kind of tactical move hoping for it.