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As any 40k player knows, gw is turning the notch up to 11 with Wulfen, anything with the word wraith in it, etc. There is no real sign of this going down anytime soon so I though about the next edition and rhe codices it harbours. I suppose you could consider this thread a debate about the power creep/wishful thinking for the future.

Personally I hope GW hears our cries and buffs vehicles and other sub-optimal choices. A level playing field is all I hope for. If everyone is op, no one is. (If that makes sense)

Yeah, even if i preffer a bit nef on overpowered stuff.

In any case, to get an aceptable balance buffing underpowered stuff there are some codex that MUST be 90% re-written xDD

For example, chaos space marines or the orks, they are the red-neck cousins of the game xD.
And also some revision of some troops from dark eldar

And a full revision of alliances

And even that, things like gargantuan MC and gravitons need a nerf

If you want to see what is power creep then compare Nobz to Digga... I mean Wulfen. Its disgusting how much better Wulfen are compared to Nobz its not even remotely fair yet their base stat line plus function on the battlefield are so very similar.

I am all for new stuff coming out and some of them can push the envelope but it just sickens me that GW has such poor oversight in their rules department that they can't see how insanely strong one thing is while how incredibly bad a very similar thing is.

My favorite comparison is base Wulfen vs base Possessed.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As any 40k player knows, gw is turning the notch up to 11 with Wulfen, anything with the word wraith in it, etc. There is no real sign of this going down anytime soon so I though about the next edition and rhe codices it harbours. I suppose you could consider this thread a debate about the power creep/wishful thinking for the future.

Personally I hope GW hears our cries and buffs vehicles and other sub-optimal choices. A level playing field is all I hope for. If everyone is op, no one is. (If that makes sense)

It all kind of depends on where you want the power level to be. Personally, I dislike how powerful things like scatbikes, wraith knights, etc. are because that power level invalidates more moderate options unless those options are taken to an extreme. Running three humble rhinos in a CAD, for instance, kind of becomes a non-option against scat bikes.

On the other hand, I'm not all that fond of the 7.0 books like orks and dark eldar. Even when they first came out and were relatively balanced against one another, so much of the flavor and player choice was removed that they weren't really satisfying.

Personally, I'd like things to hover around the power level of things like Dire Avengers and Striking Scorpions. These options have some very flavorful, powerful rules, but they can also be countered by pretty mundane means.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As any 40k player knows, gw is turning the notch up to 11 with Wulfen, anything with the word wraith in it, etc. There is no real sign of this going down anytime soon so I though about the next edition and rhe codices it harbours. I suppose you could consider this thread a debate about the power creep/wishful thinking for the future.

Personally I hope GW hears our cries and buffs vehicles and other sub-optimal choices. A level playing field is all I hope for. If everyone is op, no one is. (If that makes sense)

Bow before my ALMIGHT WRAITHBLADES! THEIR SINGLE S7 ATTACK SHALL LEAVE NONE STANDING!!!

I like Wyldhunts idea. Avenger level of power and add some flavour back to books. Especially Deldar. Poor, poor Dark Eldar.

Bring everything to the power level of where DA's, SW's, Daemons & Khornekin generally sit right now. (ie: upper mid tier to lowest top tier at best.)

You can make some seriously gamey, power-hungry combos with those books sure, but it's also really easy to just make a tone of very fun & fluffy lists as well.

Bring the core rules more into line and address such discrepancies such as MC's vs. vehicles in general, certain psychic lores being too easily abused, Salvo weapons generally being gak, Grav being stupidly OP, etc...
And most importantly of all, fix the damn Battle Brothers ally level! The ability to have BB level alliances are fine, but just remove the whole 'Super Friends' aspect of it and make the FAQ bit official about no deploying inside each other's transports, etc...

For the codices, just remove the gakkiest stuff such as '500pts of free obsec transports' for taking minimum sized squads, Skyhammer, Aspect Host, and the like.
Instead make the formations more on the level of the Khornekin & Daemon formations.

I'd prefer everthing be brought to the middle, rather than just up. GW is bad about the newest toy being on the top of the heap because they KNOW that will make it sell, regardless what that does to the overall game.

Problem is, if the they balanced the current game and then kept future units in that balance, their new releases would hardly make any money because the game is already flooded with existing units - and who wants new units that are "just as good" as existing units they already know/use?

 Stormonu wrote:
I'd prefer everthing be brought to the middle, rather than just up. GW is bad about the newest toy being on the top of the heap because they KNOW that will make it sell, regardless what that does to the overall game.

Problem is, if the they balanced the current game and then kept future units in that balance, their new releases would hardly make any money because the game is already flooded with existing units - and who wants new units that are "just as good" as existing units they already know/use?

People who like the new units.

The game is extrememly unbalanced atm, but it's only because the ONE thing that GW has at it's disposal (apart from better judgement) to balance out the game, a unit's points cost, seems to be where they fail the most.

Every single unit in the game, along with their special rules, could remain exactly the same and a balanced game COULD be had if the units were actually pointed appropriately. Wraithknights are amazing, but if they costed 425pts to field, they'd quickly move to good, but not auto-include. Stompa's are unplayable, but only because they're way too expensive. If they were 525pts, you'd actually see them on the table.

Same rules...just realistic points costs.

Possessed.and Warp talons are considered to be total garbage, but they're really not god awful, just too expensive. If they cost 7pts or so less per model, they may actually get off some shelves and onto some tables.

This would be the change I'd love to see some ballsy TO make for a season. Everyone knows there's a points cost issue, but it's the one thing everyone treats as gospel. People get mad about TOs changing their unit's cool rules because...hey...that's why they bought and painted that unit. People aren't going to be as upset if their unit performs as expected, but they have to pay a different amount for it.

That's not true...they'll get mad about that too. Don't worry about it...it's the right move.

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As any 40k player knows, gw is turning the notch up to 11 with Wulfen, anything with the word wraith in it, etc. There is no real sign of this going down anytime soon so I though about the next edition and rhe codices it harbours. I suppose you could consider this thread a debate about the power creep/wishful thinking for the future.

Personally I hope GW hears our cries and buffs vehicles and other sub-optimal choices. A level playing field is all I hope for. If everyone is op, no one is. (If that makes sense)

Bow before my ALMIGHT WRAITHBLADES! THEIR SINGLE S7 ATTACK SHALL LEAVE NONE STANDING!!!

I like Wyldhunts idea. Avenger level of power and add some flavour back to books. Especially Deldar. Poor, poor Dark Eldar.

I was thinking more the knight and crons, but yes, those also sound horribly terrifying

And may I ask what makes deldar so bad? I'm making an army of them and I would like to know out of curiosity. The only thing I could ask for is better armour saves, and assault options although perhaps that is my space wolves/daemonkin leaking in...

Ogryns and Thunderwolf Cavalry.
Both cost the same.
Compare the stats and then laugh. Or weep. Your choice.

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 #1ShieldBrother3++ wrote:
As any 40k player knows, gw is turning the notch up to 11 with Wulfen, anything with the word wraith in it, etc. There is no real sign of this going down anytime soon so I though about the next edition and rhe codices it harbours. I suppose you could consider this thread a debate about the power creep/wishful thinking for the future.

Personally I hope GW hears our cries and buffs vehicles and other sub-optimal choices. A level playing field is all I hope for. If everyone is op, no one is. (If that makes sense)

Bow before my ALMIGHT WRAITHBLADES! THEIR SINGLE S7 ATTACK SHALL LEAVE NONE STANDING!!!

I like Wyldhunts idea. Avenger level of power and add some flavour back to books. Especially Deldar. Poor, poor Dark Eldar.

I was thinking more the knight and crons, but yes, those also sound horribly terrifying

And may I ask what makes deldar so bad? I'm making an army of them and I would like to know out of curiosity. The only thing I could ask for is better armour saves, and assault options although perhaps that is my space wolves/daemonkin leaking in...

Lots of fragile infantry in fragile transports where the main defence is Jink. So you mainly choose between death and losing all significant shooting. Although I don't play Dark Eldar so I may be wrong. I was referring to the loss of flavour in the Dark Eldar book due to their special characters suddenly vanishing in most cases. Irritatingly it seemed to be all the ones I was interested in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Ogryns and Thunderwolf Cavalry.
Both cost the same.
Compare the stats and then laugh. Or weep. Your choice.

They....cost the same? Really? I'd rather believe everyone who reads the Guard codex becomes blind and get it wrong..... Can I weep and laugh?

Yes, yes you can.

I don't think there was any power creep since the last Tau dex. And I don't know if the new Tau options are really better than Riptide spam or just an alternative on the same power level.

All updated splatbooks and Warzone Fenris did not increase the power level above mid-tier.

Yes, Wulfen are a great melee unit. But only a melee unit, and in a Codex that already has equally great (or greater?) TWC. SWs on their own are definitely not high mid-tier or lower high-tier. Only battle bro shenangians (that have been largely squashed by the new FAQs) made them remotely competetive.

Ogryns/Chosen/Warp Talons/... are too expensive, no question. They are in the same boat as power-armored Wolf Guard, too high base cost and they pay way too much for their gear. I,e, PA WG with combi-weapon and power weapon is 43 points, a TDAWG with the same gear only 38...

Eldar and Tau need toning down (how much is debateable)
Necrons need toning down slightly less.
Orks, Sisters,CSM, Dark Eldar and Blood Angels need a buff.

Pretty much all post-Decurion codexes need nerfing in one way or another. The power creep is now getting stupid with things like Imperial Knights, Riptides, Baneblades and Wraithknights becoming common place.
With all this the common soldier, once the backbone of every faction, is now being left in the dirt, only taken when they are needed for a 'bound' formation where they are considered a "Troop tax".

This is getting stupid. What happened to the days where a single Leman Russ was a threat? The days where a Terminator unit could force a breach? Te days where a model with the Infantry removing firepower of a Wyvern was considered Brokenly powerful and even a battery or mortars could give your opponent something to think about?
We need to stop this stupid power creep. It needs to end now, before things get blown out of all proportion.

I can field six Leman Russ hulls plus a Shadowsword in a 2K game and that is considered weak these days. It shouldnt be. Six Leman Russ hulls alone should be considered cheesey powergaming and the inclusion of a Shadowsword? That thing should only see the tabletop for apocalypse games, if at all.

Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

Lots of fragile infantry in fragile transports where the main defence is Jink. So you mainly choose between death and losing all significant shooting. Although I don't play Dark Eldar so I may be wrong. I was referring to the loss of flavour in the Dark Eldar book due to their special characters suddenly vanishing in most cases. Irritatingly it seemed to be all the ones I was interested in.

Like Lady Malys? The woman who stole the heart of the Laughing God? How intriguing a story that was. Why didn't you make a model GW? That's the only reason that they'd have for removing her from the game...

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

When was that? Because I've been playing since 1993 and they've never been good. At least, the loyalist ones.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

When was that? Because I've been playing since 1993 and they've never been good. At least, the loyalist ones.

TH/SS Termies were once all the rage in some past edition. 5th? 6th? Perhaps both? It's been so long.

TH/SS terminators, yes. But standard TDA? It's always been terrible.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Pretty much all post-Decurion codexes need nerfing in one way or another. The power creep is now getting stupid with things like Imperial Knights, Riptides, Baneblades and Wraithknights becoming common place.
With all this the common soldier, once the backbone of every faction, is now being left in the dirt, only taken when they are needed for a 'bound' formation where they are considered a "Troop tax".

This is getting stupid. What happened to the days where a single Leman Russ was a threat? The days where a Terminator unit could force a breach? Te days where a model with the Infantry removing firepower of a Wyvern was considered Brokenly powerful and even a battery or mortars could give your opponent something to think about?
We need to stop this stupid power creep. It needs to end now, before things get blown out of all proportion.

I can field six Leman Russ hulls plus a Shadowsword in a 2K game and that is considered weak these days. It shouldnt be. Six Leman Russ hulls alone should be considered cheesey powergaming and the inclusion of a Shadowsword? That thing should only see the tabletop for apocalypse games, if at all.

Really? The creep is getting crazy with imperial Knights riptides and Baneblades? I think big threats are nice and force you to be prepared for the threat of a super sturdy weapon platform. You do realize the riptide came out in 6th Ed, right? Perhaps you need to get out of 5th instead of expecting the game to go back to 5th.

Well I was going to complain about Warp spiders and how they should be increased in points.

However there's too many tears on this thread already so im leaving, I cant swim.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

When was that? Because I've been playing since 1993 and they've never been good. At least, the loyalist ones.

Try melta vets doing drive by in chimeras. Or vendettas. 2 u.its of mech vets, 2 vendettas, 1 superheavy. All the AT you need. Anything else is icing on the cake. Suddenly those HWT'S don't seem so bad when they are the secondary resource, not the primary

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

you could always try posting 15000 times on dakka about how your army is the worst since the game was released

When was that? Because I've been playing since 1993 and they've never been good. At least, the loyalist ones.

That includes second edition - and terminators were certainly nasty in that one. Bloody 2D6-based armour saves!

Like Lady Malys? The woman who stole the heart of the Laughing God? How intriguing a story that was. Why didn't you make a model GW? That's the only reason that they'd have for removing her from the game...

I do find it annoying that they responded by removing all the characters. I get why - it's a reaction to the whole Chapterhouse malarky - but a lot of the new stuff seems a bit.... "Blam! Kapow!" with a very warcraft-esque aesthetic rather than the slightly (very slightly!) more believable feel it used to have.

Mind you, they stripped out named characters long before that codex. Ever heard of a Blood Angels special character called Veteran Sergeant Cleutin? GW never made a model for him, which is a shame as he was kind of awesome - especially in light of the (since written) fluff about Dante and Cleutin being the sole survivors of a mission due to the Sanguinor's intervention.

Yeah they really need to put balance ahead of sales.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators could never force a breach.

Leman russ hulls are bad. Quit using them. I've shelved all my predators.

Terminators where decent. Once upon a time.

What else do I have to get the damage dealt with? Overpriced HWT? Squishy psykers? blobs of cotton wool?

When was that? Because I've been playing since 1993 and they've never been good. At least, the loyalist ones.

You didn't think they were good when even against lascannon you have almost 30% chance of surviving? And any -1 -2 shot they are laughing off. Plasma gun without max power? Don't care much. 5+ on 2d6 is very good odds. Autocannons are only marginally scarier. Heavy bolter...Naah.

And assault cannon meanwhile was sustained fire 3D goodyness with -3 to saves.