Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
As further proof that we are apparently living in some kind of twilight zone, Scottish Labour have just appointed the editor of the Scottish Daily Mail as communications director.
And then he said he wanted it wrapped up in a few days, thus allowing the the EU the option of simply waiting it out
There's incompetence, and then there's DC. I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times - the 'deal' was a sham from start to finish.
Yeah I noted some of this in my previous post but I don't think it was a sham. I think DC honestly believed that he could do the best deal he wanted in the time available (which he should have learnt from previous mistakes was just not feasible).
Given the timescale he set himself (again foolish) he actually got quite a few concessions (more than I expected him to) and some are/will/would (delete dependent on you POV) have given the UK quite a number of additional benefits.
He simply did not have enough time on the table to deal with all the issues and some were really something that could have been dealt with by talking to the populace in a more meaningful way (for example the immigration benefits issue was out dated and a tiny fraction of the benefits bill and really could have been dropped as an issue). However he did get a number of reasonable concessions in those 5 days which weren't a 'sham'; giving people the thought that it would be better was a mistake and led to a lot (and still does) unrealistic expectations of what could be achieved.
However I do think he thought that the he could get all his changes he wanted in the 5 days which showed him either as naïve or delusional (neither good for a PM). Also you never want to agree an outcome of the back of meetings. One of things I learnt negotiating contracts is you never, ever agree to something 'on the day' in the meeting. You want to take it home, sleep on it and look at with fresh eyes and other peoples eyes to ensure it is fit for purpose because otherwise you will miss something.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: And as for the EU during this 'negotiation,' alarm bells should have been ringing at the prospect of BREXIT, but they either were incompetent, didn't care, or thought we were bluffing.
I think there was plenty of evidence that they didn't think we were bluffing, because if they did we wouldn't have got the concessions we did in the timescale that DC gave them. However you can't expect them to massively modify the EU constitution on the whim of one country; it is meant to work for everyone and we are not special in any way. Changes more significant than those provided would have needed longer negotiations; and there's always a balance in negotiations you can't just hand over the prized crockery and let one petulant child smash it on the floor, because it gives the wrong signal to other countries and that there was nothing from us threatening to do it all over again. Negotiations are a two way process and the fact we got something for nothing shows a lot of how seriously the EU took the issue.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/29 20:49:05
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Silent Puffin? wrote: As further proof that we are apparently living in some kind of twilight zone, Scottish Labour have just appointed the editor of the Scottish Daily Mail as communications director.
Sometimes I don't know if they actually want to be taken seriously. Scottish Labour is pretty much a non-entity at this point anyway.
Silent Puffin? wrote: As further proof that we are apparently living in some kind of twilight zone, Scottish Labour have just appointed the editor of the Scottish Daily Mail as communications director.
Sometimes I don't know if they actually want to be taken seriously. Scottish Labour is pretty much a non-entity at this point anyway.
They have to try and one up the red team south of the border.
However, whatever the EU gave us as a concession (I wouldn't have called it anything) was going to be vetoed at the earliest opportunity. I distinctly remember the voices saying that they would block it. And surprise surprise, they were waiting until after the referendum to make their move. I suppose that they were only being honest at the end of the day.
Silent Puffin? wrote: As further proof that we are apparently living in some kind of twilight zone, Scottish Labour have just appointed the editor of the Scottish Daily Mail as communications director.
The Unionist parties in Scotland (Lab/Con/Libs) should really drop the pretense of being seperate parties, and merge into one big Unionist party.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Future War Cultist wrote: The Scotish Unionist Party. Has a nice ring to it. But you'd never get conservatives, liberals and labour all under one banner.
You may not know this, but the Unionist party did exist in Scotland years ago. They were allied with the Tories, and then they merged, giving us the Conservative and Unionist party, which is the official, but not commonly used, title for the Tories.
This was back in the 1950s or something, when Conservatism was a big political force in Scotland, but then Labour came along, and then the SNP.
I think Thatcher was the major reason when the Tories declined in Scotland, among other things, that and a shift to focusing on England.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Labour refused to collaborate with the SNP to beat the Tories in the General Election, even though the SNP are more Labour than Labour are, so I can't imagine they'd ever entertain joining the Liberals or Tories, even though it'd treble their seat count
Ireland has a huge international IT / Business markets and 13 billion Euros on Apple is not an insignificant sum.
It's headline news. The implications are massive.
I'm in many frames of mind about it. I like Apple('s products), I believe national governments should call the shots on their tax laws and I hate the EU. Especially because in this case to me it looks like it's going ex post facto. But I also hate tax dodging multinationals, who makes billions in profits but pay zero corporation tax (although for the sake of balance, they do pay some taxes in other ways) whilst ordinary people get a rate of 20%.
A guy like me has to fork out nearly £1352 over the year on a 20% tax rate, which is not an insubstantial amount of money. Yet if a company with profits of 1.3 billion whatever paid just 1% tax it would be giving over 13 million in tax whilst still only portionally paying a faction of what I'd pay. And they can't even manage that.
Future War Cultist wrote: However, whatever the EU gave us as a concession (I wouldn't have called it anything) was going to be vetoed at the earliest opportunity.
OK lets try this - given 5 days to negotiate what would you have asked for to keep want you to stay in the EU and how you would have it signed into the constitution during that time?
Future War Cultist wrote: I distinctly remember the voices saying that they would block it. And surprise surprise, they were waiting until after the referendum to make their move. I suppose that they were only being honest at the end of the day.
Erh... yes there were voices, those in the Leave camp, hardly an unbiased viewpoint. In essence it was fear-mongering at it's worst; it was playing on peoples fears "that those damn dirty EU rats" would screw us over at the first opportunity to which there was no evidence this was the case. It played on prejudice and bias of the populace because there was a lack of understanding as to how the process works and what realistic timescales are.
Ireland has a huge international IT / Business markets and 13 billion Euros on Apple is not an insignificant sum.
The whole world tax system is a complete nonsense at the moment. It was fine before globalisation and the internet but now it's not fit for purpose. This sort of case was bound to happen at some point. The US government are unhappy because Apple will be able to offset the tax payment against the US tax it will have to pay (so hence a lot less tax for the US). The risk being it starts a tit-for-tat escalation process. The system needs to be changed so that tax is charged based on products sold where the consumer is not where the company places it's sale servers (i.e. if a Country populace makes up 20% of the sales by value then they get to tax 20% of the global profit at the whatever percentage they deem appropriate).
Still Ireland will be happy as they are the ones that get paid bizarrely; so they set up the system to benefit the companies and now they reap the extra tax benefit of 13billion Euros, that's like 7% of their GDP.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/30 18:25:12
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
I think there was plenty of evidence that they didn't think we were bluffing, because if they did we wouldn't have got the concessions we did in the timescale that DC gave them. However you can't expect them to massively modify the EU constitution on the whim of one country; it is meant to work for everyone and we are not special in any way. Changes more significant than those provided would have needed longer negotiations; and there's always a balance in negotiations you can't just hand over the prized crockery and let one petulant child smash it on the floor, because it gives the wrong signal to other countries and that there was nothing from us threatening to do it all over again. Negotiations are a two way process and the fact we got something for nothing shows a lot of how seriously the EU took the issue.
No one thought DC was bluffing as he accepted the Franco-Belgian self destruct clause in the deal. It prevents any country, that threatens to hold a leave referendum, from extorting concessions without seeing the whole thing through.
No one thought DC was bluffing as he accepted the Franco-Belgian self destruct clause in the deal. It prevents any country, that threatens to hold a leave referendum, from extorting concessions without seeing the whole thing through.
Yeah well that is one thing we are truly trying to achieve for the UK at the moment - self destruct.
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
Ireland has a huge international IT / Business markets and 13 billion Euros on Apple is not an insignificant sum.
It's headline news. The implications are massive.
I'm in many frames of mind about it. I like Apple('s products), I believe national governments should call the shots on their tax laws and I hate the EU. Especially because in this case to me it looks like it's going ex post facto. But I also hate tax dodging multinationals, who makes billions in profits but pay zero corporation tax (although for the sake of balance, they do pay some taxes in other ways) whilst ordinary people get a rate of 20%.
A guy like me has to fork out nearly £1352 over the year on a 20% tax rate, which is not an insubstantial amount of money. Yet if a company with profits of 1.3 billion whatever paid just 1% tax it would be giving over 13 million in tax whilst still only portionally paying a faction of what I'd pay. And they can't even manage that.
I don't know...
The World Trade Organisation also has rules about state aid. It's not purely the evil EU's doing, so try not to hate them for it.
The World Trade Organisation also has rules about state aid. It's not purely the evil EU's doing, so try not to hate them for it.
You mean all the problems are not the EU's fault I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.... After all surely this is our opinion of the EU?
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
All I am saying is that the EU is only operating on a regional basis a similar kind of governance over state sponsorship of industry as the "whole world" wants to operate through organisations like the WTO and World Bank, IMF, etc.
There are of course many arguments to be had about the role of these organisations, but it's silly to suggest that the EU is unique or even unusual in this respect.
The World Trade Organisation also has rules about state aid. It's not purely the evil EU's doing, so try not to hate them for it.
You mean all the problems are not the EU's fault I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.... After all surely this is our opinion of the EU?
No, that's an example of why german car manufacturers export so many cars to us.
Hey, well with Brexit and lack of decent trade deals, we may well end up back here again...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: All I am saying is that the EU is only operating on a regional basis a similar kind of governance over state sponsorship of industry as the "whole world" wants to operate through organisations like the WTO and World Bank, IMF, etc.
There are of course many arguments to be had about the role of these organisations, but it's silly to suggest that the EU is unique or even unusual in this respect.
Lol. why so serious... I was having a moment of jest...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 19:46:05
"Because while the truncheon may be used in lieu of conversation, words will always retain their power. Words offer the means to meaning, and for those who will listen, the enunciation of truth. And the truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror. " - V
I've just supported the Permanent European Union Citizenship initiative. Please do the same and spread the word!
"It's not a problem if you don't look up." - Dakka's approach to politics
The World Trade Organisation also has rules about state aid. It's not purely the evil EU's doing, so try not to hate them for it.
You mean all the problems are not the EU's fault I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.... After all surely this is our opinion of the EU?
No, that's an example of why german car manufacturers export so many cars to us.
Hey, well with Brexit and lack of decent trade deals, we may well end up back here again...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: All I am saying is that the EU is only operating on a regional basis a similar kind of governance over state sponsorship of industry as the "whole world" wants to operate through organisations like the WTO and World Bank, IMF, etc.
There are of course many arguments to be had about the role of these organisations, but it's silly to suggest that the EU is unique or even unusual in this respect.
Lol. why so serious... I was having a moment of jest...
Sorry... I didn't mean anything untoward by it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Optio wrote: May's constant tirade of 'Brexit means Brexit' makes me wonder who she is actually trying to convince, the public/govt, or herself?
No-one knows that Brexit means but the challenge May has laid down to all the ministries is a good approach; work out your optimal Brexit plan. Once those are all in the mix some kind of ranking of options will begin to emerge, and the Brexit ministryette can be given a set of instructions.
I think that like the German deputy chancellor said, we will not be able to have the "nice things" from the EU without having to accept some of the "nasty things" the Leavers want to be rid of. For example, it is going to be very difficult to get full access to the EU Market including pass-porting for financial services without accepting free movement of EU citizens.
We certainly are going to have to comply with EU quality standards for exported goods, unless we want to exclude our businesses from the world's largest, richest market. This will mean we have to comply with the core of any relevant directives, such as the Recreational Craft Directive (1994, amended 2013).
We will have full sovereignty over whether or not to implement this kind of directive, but not implementing them will be like deciding to fill up your diesel car with petrol.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 21:00:56
Future War Cultist wrote: Do other countries (the US, Japan etc.) comply with all of these directives?
If they trade goods with the EU? Yes.
Just like our products which are sold in the US have to comply with their regulations (such as not being able to use E numbers in food packaging but instead having to put the common name as per FDA requirements). This is not an EU thing, it is a trading with anywhere in the world thing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/31 21:08:59
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
I figured as much, but I'm not really worried about it to be honest. We can make our EU exports comply with their specifications. Meanwhile, us having different rules is hardly new or difficult to deal with. Our cars are left hand drive and our electrical devices are a different voltage and that's not really ever stopped people selling us stuff. No ever said that we need to start driving on the right hand side because it's too complicated for them to deal with in exports.
