UK Politics

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Herzlos**

itsonlyme wrote:

I certainly agree, i don't think he wants to Ban Asian products (that's your typical CCN nonsense), I believe he wanted to impose fees so American companies could actually compete with them. No one will be able to compete with them while they are allowed to operate with such a weak currency and such terrible working conditions.

But if you introduce import tariffs, surely all you'll do is make conditions worse so that they can continue to compete?

Does the UK/US actually have the resources/expertise to replace far-eastern production?

**itsonlyme**

Herzlos wrote:
itsonlyme wrote:

I certainly agree, i don't think he wants to Ban Asian products (that's your typical CCN nonsense), I believe he wanted to impose fees so American companies could actually compete with them. No one will be able to compete with them while they are allowed to operate with such a weak currency and such terrible working conditions.

But if you introduce import tariffs, surely all you'll do is make conditions worse so that they can continue to compete?

Does the UK/US actually have the resources/expertise to replace far-eastern production?

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, something needs to be done so other countries can complete. I'm not an economist and have a lot to learn

**Herzlos**

itsonlyme wrote:

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, something needs to be done so other countries can complete. I'm not an economist and have a lot to learn

What normally happens is that once the standard of life climbs high enough, countries stop being cost effective all on their own, as production moves somewhere else. There's always going to be somewhere that can produce stuff for less than the UK's labour costs, so we cannot compete on price alone.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Herzlos wrote:
itsonlyme wrote:

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, something needs to be done so other countries can complete. I'm not an economist and have a lot to learn

What normally happens is that once the standard of life climbs high enough, countries stop being cost effective all on their own, as production moves somewhere else. There's always going to be somewhere that can produce stuff for less than the UK's labour costs, so we cannot compete on price alone.

True, we can't compete on price,production and quantity, so we have to do the opposite: hi-tech and niche, stuff that commands a high value and needs skilled people to make.

China will always outgun us on cheap TVs and cheap Y-fronts, but high quality engineering, medicine, university, and of course, culture, are the areas where we can compete.

People forget that places like China are going through their version of the industrial revolution, and like the UK, they will hit the same brick walls we did back in the day...

**r_squared**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
itsonlyme wrote:

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, something needs to be done so other countries can complete. I'm not an economist and have a lot to learn

What normally happens is that once the standard of life climbs high enough, countries stop being cost effective all on their own, as production moves somewhere else. There's always going to be somewhere that can produce stuff for less than the UK's labour costs, so we cannot compete on price alone.

True, we can't compete on price,production and quantity, so we have to do the opposite: hi-tech and niche, stuff that commands a high value and needs skilled people to make.

China will always outgun us on cheap TVs and cheap Y-fronts, but high quality engineering, medicine, university, and of course, culture, are the areas where we can compete.

People forget that places like China are going through their version of the industrial revolution, and like the UK, they will hit the same brick walls we did back in the day...

Bingo, if you can't stack em high, and sell em cheap, you have to go for the high end of the market. That requires investment though, lots of it, especially when it comes to innovation.

**reds8n**

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/10/18/british-tea-jam-and-biscuits-will-be-at-the-heart-of-britains-br/

British jam, tea and biscuits will be at the heart of Britain's Brexit trade negotiations, the Government has said, as it unveiled plans to sell food to other countries to boost the economy.

In a speech at a trade fair in Paris last night, Environment Minister Andrea Leadsom outlined key Brexit preparation plans which she claimed would deliver a £2.9bn boost to the UK over five years.

Ahead of Article 50 being triggered next Spring, the point when Brexit negotiations can start, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs has launched a so-called 'International Action Plan for Food and Drink'.

It has identified nine markets across 18 countries with the best potential for specific products for selling British produce.

These include Japan, which apparently has a growing hunger for classic British items like afternoon tea items and beef.

Officials also believe Mexico is thirsty for whisky and gin with beer and cider demand increasing in Australia and New Zealand. The project aims to "raise the ambitions" of small British producers to help them sell their produce to different corners of the globe.

By doing this it is hoped that Britain's reputation as a global producer of food and drinks will be elevated. It builds in the agreement reached between the US and the UK earlier this year to once again import British red meats nearly two decades after they were deemed unfit for consumption and banned during the height of the UK's "mad cow disease" scandal.

The decision was the UK's first major foreign trade deal to be reached since the vote to leave the EU, and is set to boost the economy by £35 million a year, estimates show.

Andrea Leadsom, the Environment Secretary said: “With over £10 billion worth of food and drink sold overseas in the last seven months and exports up almost six per cent compared to 2015, there is no doubt we are open for business and ready to trade.

“Our food and drink is renowned for having the very best standards of animal welfare, quality and safety and I want even more of the world to enjoy what we have to offer.

“Scottish salmon, Welsh beef, Northern Irish whiskey and English cheese are already well-known globally and I want us to build on this success by helping even more companies send their top quality food and drink abroad.”

International Trade Minister, Mark Garnier, said: “The Government has put trade at the heart of its agenda with the creation of the Department for International Trade and we are working hard to help UK companies take advantage of the global demand for British goods and services. This ambitious new plan shows the strength of our commitment to boosting UK food and drink exports around the world.

“Whether it’s helping our businesses to understand target markets, providing access to trade missions or advice on export finance, we are committed to helping budding exporters realise their dreams of building a global business.”

Ian Wright, Director General of the Food and Drink Federation, said: “We are supporting the Government’s export drive with an ambition to grow branded food and drink exports by a third by 2020 to £6 billion. “Export growth is hugely important to our sector. We hope that the International Action Plan for Food and Drink will open more channels and provide direct support to new and existing food and drink exporters.”

The fish, meat, cheese and alcohol i think we could do alright with...

... I'm not especially convinced we'll have great success exporting Tea.

.. especially to Japan.

But why let a little thing import costs and geography get in the way.

One wonders if maybe Mexicans might, perhaps, get their whiskey etc etc from somewhere a little closer , a little bit north of them perhaps , but it's still a market that can be tapped anyway.

Andrea Leadsom, the Environment Secretary said: “With over £10 billion worth of food and drink sold overseas in the last seven months and exports up almost six per cent compared to 2015, there is no doubt we are open for business and ready to trade.

Thank feth we're in the Eu then right ..oh hang on.....

“Our food and drink is renowned for having the very best standards of animal welfare, quality and safety and I want even more of the world to enjoy what we have to offer.

so.. not getting rid of a lot of that burdensome red tape then t'would seem ?

**Herzlos**

a £2.9bn boost over 5 years is going to make a bit of a dent in the predicted £66bn/year drop we're expecting, but we'll need a lot more.

I do admire their optimism, but I'm not seeing much reality - How much are, for instance, Japanese people going to be willing to pay for UK Jam over any local alternatives? Tariff free trade or not, that jam jar is going to have to travel almost 6000 miles (or about 3 times the width of Europe).

r_squared wrote:
Bingo, if you can't stack em high, and sell em cheap, you have to go for the high end of the market. That requires investment though, lots of it, especially when it comes to innovation.

And generally still needs the actual physical components to be fabricated somewhere cheap.
Admittedly, with the markup on high end stuff, the margins are wide enough to handle the increased cost of getting stuff made.

**welshhoppo**

Well what things does Britian produce that other countries cannot compete with. Alcohol is a good one. Us Brits have been getting plastered off ale and lager for years, time to spread that love to the world!

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

r_squared wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Herzlos wrote:
itsonlyme wrote:

Honestly, I don't know what the answer is, something needs to be done so other countries can complete. I'm not an economist and have a lot to learn

What normally happens is that once the standard of life climbs high enough, countries stop being cost effective all on their own, as production moves somewhere else. There's always going to be somewhere that can produce stuff for less than the UK's labour costs, so we cannot compete on price alone.

True, we can't compete on price,production and quantity, so we have to do the opposite: hi-tech and niche, stuff that commands a high value and needs skilled people to make.

China will always outgun us on cheap TVs and cheap Y-fronts, but high quality engineering, medicine, university, and of course, culture, are the areas where we can compete.

People forget that places like China are going through their version of the industrial revolution, and like the UK, they will hit the same brick walls we did back in the day...

Bingo, if you can't stack em high, and sell em cheap, you have to go for the high end of the market. That requires investment though, lots of it, especially when it comes to innovation.

We could start by not blowing the family budget on Trident and crackpot nuclear power plants from EDF, who seem to be making it up as they go along.

That's where the investment money could come from.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

welshhoppo wrote:
Well what things does Britian produce that other countries cannot compete with. Alcohol is a good one. Us Brits have been getting plastered off ale and lager for years, time to spread that love to the world!

We did spread that love, it was called the British Empire

But yes, to address your point, high quality food products and beverages will always sell, especially to a growing middle class in China and India.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
a £2.9bn boost over 5 years is going to make a bit of a dent in the predicted £66bn/year drop we're expecting, but we'll need a lot more.

I do admire their optimism, but I'm not seeing much reality - How much are, for instance, Japanese people going to be willing to pay for UK Jam over any local alternatives? Tariff free trade or not, that jam jar is going to have to travel almost 6000 miles (or about 3 times the width of Europe).

r_squared wrote:
Bingo, if you can't stack em high, and sell em cheap, you have to go for the high end of the market. That requires investment though, lots of it, especially when it comes to innovation.

And generally still needs the actual physical components to be fabricated somewhere cheap.
Admittedly, with the markup on high end stuff, the margins are wide enough to handle the increased cost of getting stuff made.

On the Guardian forums, there was a funny comment from a Remain voter about selling Duchy Originals* to balance the UK's books

*Duchy originals is the stuff that prince Charles' jam company makes

**Herzlos**

welshhoppo wrote:
Well what things does Britian produce that other countries cannot compete with. Alcohol is a good one. Us Brits have been getting plastered off ale and lager for years, time to spread that love to the world!

There's very little UK produced alcohol available outside of the UK, especially outside of Europe, there's just not much demand for it considering the price (it's already 2-3x the price of local stuff), and to be fair, UK produced lager is awful. There's some demand for Scotch Whisky, but again, it's so much more expensive than local brands it's not that popular, and I guess theres some demand for real ales and that's about it.

I guess we could push the UK stuff further up the scale to make it even more exclusive and profitable, but most of the world will continue to ignore it.

I'm not sure what else we can produce that can't be undercut. We're still leading in car design/development, but most of the actual production happens abroad.

**reds8n**

Bit of a snag with regards to the plan :

http://www.maff.go.jp/aqs/english/news/eligible-bse-country.html

it's currently illegal to sell UK beef in Japan -- since the "mad cow" scare , ban was put in place in 2001.

However " A departmental spokesperson insisted negotiations to allow the sale of beef to Japan “form a key part of our plans to grow exports”. While it’s “not something that’s going to happen tomorrow”, it is planned within the “next five years”, justifying Leadsom’s decision to focus on selling beef to the Pacific country."

uh huh.

**A Town Called Malus**

reds8n wrote:
Bit of a snag with regards to the plan :

http://www.maff.go.jp/aqs/english/news/eligible-bse-country.html

it's currently illegal to sell UK beef in Japan -- since the "mad cow" scare , ban was put in place in 2001.

However " A departmental spokesperson insisted negotiations to allow the sale of beef to Japan “form a key part of our plans to grow exports”. While it’s “not something that’s going to happen tomorrow”, it is planned within the “next five years”, justifying Leadsom’s decision to focus on selling beef to the Pacific country."

uh huh.

Also, doesn't Japan already produce its own beef? I know they definitely have some at the upper end of the market in the form of Kobe beef, not sure about other price points.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I've just had a great idea on how we can all survive BREXIT.

In the last few days, there's been a story about how the British government has been spying on us for the last 17 years - phone tapping, mass survelliance etc etc

A court/judge found them guilty.

To cut a long story short, that was illegal under article 8 of the European Human rights convention.

So, we either pool our money to hire a lawyer, or use Welshhoppo

Sue the British government, get the compensation money,

and go our separate ways to a Caribbean island or something, leaving the rest of the UK to deal with BREXIT!

That is a plan in my book

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I've just had a great idea on how we can all survive BREXIT.

In the last few days, there's been a story about how the British government has been spying on us for the last 17 years - phone tapping, mass survelliance etc etc

A court/judge found them guilty.

To cut a long story short, that was illegal under article 8 of the European Human rights convention.

So, we either pool our money to hire a lawyer, or use Welshhoppo

Sue the British government, get the compensation money,

and go our separate ways to a Caribbean island or something, leaving the rest of the UK to deal with BREXIT!

That is a plan in my book

Seems reasonable, though I am possibly starting my masters soon so I may have to meet you guys out there in a year or so

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I kid you not, but technically, all 60 million people in the UK are eligible to sue the British government as a result of that court's decision.

I'd like to see a judge handle that! Plus the jury would be suing as well

**A Town Called Malus**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I kid you not, but technically, all 60 million people in the UK are eligible to sue the British government as a result of that court's decision.

I'd like to see a judge handle that! Plus the jury would be suing as well

So you mean that soon there's going to be thousands of adverts on TV asking if we have claimed our compensation from the government a la PPI?

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I kid you not, but technically, all 60 million people in the UK are eligible to sue the British government as a result of that court's decision.

I'd like to see a judge handle that! Plus the jury would be suing as well

So you mean that soon there's going to be thousands of adverts on TV asking if we have claimed our compensation from the government a la PPI?

I hope so!

In all honesty, I'm surprised that story seen the light of day. Normally, it gets swept under the carpet.

In the 18 months since the General election in 2015, I'm still waiting on word about the expenses fraud involving Conservative Party MPs.

And what happened to the Panama Papers' revelations?

It's all gone quiet.

**Herzlos**

A Town Called Malus wrote:

Also, doesn't Japan already produce its own beef? I know they definitely have some at the upper end of the market in the form of Kobe beef, not sure about other price points.

It does, it's high end beef (Kobe/Wagyu) is amazing, and I think they get a lot of cheaper beef from the continent. We might fit in as a middle ground - of nice-but-not-too-expensive beef. If they ever allow us to sell any.

**welshhoppo**

The problem with suing is that we need to have lost something in order to do it. We can't claim compensation without any damages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Also, doesn't Japan already produce its own beef? I know they definitely have some at the upper end of the market in the form of Kobe beef, not sure about other price points.

It does, it's high end beef (Kobe/Wagyu) is amazing, and I think they get a lot of cheaper beef from the continent. We might fit in as a middle ground - of nice-but-not-too-expensive beef. If they ever allow us to sell any.

I once had a Wagyu cheeseburger. It was really nice.

I truly am a connoisseur of the finer arts.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

welshhoppo wrote:
The problem with suing is that we need to have lost something in order to do it. We can't claim compensation without any damages.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Herzlos wrote:
A Town Called Malus wrote:

Also, doesn't Japan already produce its own beef? I know they definitely have some at the upper end of the market in the form of Kobe beef, not sure about other price points.

It does, it's high end beef (Kobe/Wagyu) is amazing, and I think they get a lot of cheaper beef from the continent. We might fit in as a middle ground - of nice-but-not-too-expensive beef. If they ever allow us to sell any.

I once had a Wagyu cheeseburger. It was really nice.

I truly am a connoisseur of the finer arts.

We lost our right to privacy

Damn it, you're the lawyer, you'll think of something!

**welshhoppo**

Except privacy doesn't cost anything.

However, if someone lost something because the government were illegally spying on them maybe you'd find something. Better start a kickstarter to fund a billboard campaign.

**notprop**

British meats sell well on the continent, veal being the obvious one. Horse being another no less palatable other example.

Fish/shellfish from British waters is also in high demand, of course that is general caught by French and Spanish factory ships so er.....

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

notprop wrote:
British meats sell well on the continent, veal being the obvious one. Horse being another no less palatable other example.

Fish/shellfish from British waters is also in high demand, of course that is general caught by French and Spanish factory ships so er.....

We got our fishing waters back thanks to Nigel Farage's tireless work on the European Parliament's fisheries comittee.

Farage never missed a day. In fact, they had to stop him turning up early by all accounts

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bloody hell, this makes for grim reading. Despite the ineptitude of the government, the Tories are still riding high:

Westminster voting intention:
CON: 47% (+7)
LAB: 29% (-5)
LDEM: 7% (+1)
UKIP: 6% (-3)
GRN: 4% (-1)
(via Ipsos Mori / 14 - 17 Oct)

**Herzlos**

That's because there's no-one else to vote for.

UKIP and labour are both in total disarray.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

Herzlos wrote:
That's because there's no-one else to vote for.

UKIP and labour are both in total disarray.

I had this naive hope that after June 23rd, the Tories and Labour would collapse, and new political parties, which better reflect our post-BREXIT landscape, would emerge from the ashes.

Who knows, maybe they will...

**itsonlyme**

notprop wrote:
British meats sell well on the continent, veal being the obvious one. Horse being another no less palatable other example.

Fish/shellfish from British waters is also in high demand, of course that is general caught by French and Spanish factory ships so er.....

Well one kind posted decided to point out the fishing quotas are apparently perfectly reasonable, nothing wrong with legislation that essentially been killing off our farming and fishing trade. Who cares about that anyway, half the country suddenly turned racist because of the Brexit according the extreme left.

**AlmightyWalrus**

itsonlyme wrote:
notprop wrote:
British meats sell well on the continent, veal being the obvious one. Horse being another no less palatable other example.

Fish/shellfish from British waters is also in high demand, of course that is general caught by French and Spanish factory ships so er.....

Well one kind posted decided to point out the fishing quotas are apparently perfectly reasonable, nothing wrong with legislation that essentially been killing off our farming and fishing trade. Who cares about that anyway, half the country suddenly turned racist because of the Brexit according the extreme left.

We also pointed out, which has been pointed out in the past as well, that the British government, not the EU, is responsible for the fact that the fishing quotas are disproportionately awarded to bigger companies, causing the smaller companies to languish. Considering you obviously didn't let this bother you at all I'm probably being hopelessly naïve pointing it out to you, but still.

Another good idea if one is worried about the representation of one's country in the Fisheries Commission might be to not send Nigel Farage to represent you. It's petty in the extreme to send someone like him and then complain the system is unfair. Trying to passively attack your opponents by playing the persecution card is also pretty damn petty.

**itsonlyme**

The Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) is the fisheries policy of the European Union (EU). It sets quotas for which member states are allowed to catch what amounts of each type of fish, as well as encouraging the fishing industry by various market interventions.

Pretty sure the UK doesn't set the Quotas, regardless of what you think you've pointed out

**A Town Called Malus**

itsonlyme wrote:
The Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) is the fisheries policy of the European Union (EU). It sets quotas for which member states are allowed to catch what amounts of each type of fish, as well as encouraging the fishing industry by various market interventions.

Pretty sure the UK doesn't set the Quotas, regardless of what you think you've pointed out

The UK gets given its allocation of the total quota byt the EU (which was pointed out earlier to be quite favourable to the UK compared to France).

The UK government then decides what businesses get what allocation from the UKs quota. The UK government has consistently given huge amounts of that quota to large fishing companies at the expense of independent fisherman and small fishing companies.

Without a total quota the stocks would end up completely decimated and we would have no fishing industry.

**itsonlyme**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
itsonlyme wrote:
The Common Fisheries Policy (CFP) is the fisheries policy of the European Union (EU). It sets quotas for which member states are allowed to catch what amounts of each type of fish, as well as encouraging the fishing industry by various market interventions.

Pretty sure the UK doesn't set the Quotas, regardless of what you think you've pointed out

The UK gets given its allocation of the total quota byt the EU (which was pointed out earlier to be quite favourable to the UK compared to France).

Which is against the idea that the quota is nothing to do with the EU isn't, the total number of fish that can be fished is still set my the EU (which as you favourable towards the French) which was my original point. However while some of the blame can be blamed at the hands of the government, some can still be laid at the feet of the EU which is clearly favouring other EU countries.