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So, I've had a conversation with one of my friends in which he was adamant that a single Space Marine loss was a smaller blow to SM forces in general that a single Eldar loss is to Eldar forces in general. His reasoning is that as the Eldar are a dying race, they can't replace their losses, and that after 10,000 years of falling it makes sense to him that the entire Eldar race is now incapable of mustering sufficient forces to take out Space Marines. He is under the impression that the Eldar military now counts for less than 1 million active duty soldiers (excluding guardians).

Are there any grounds to this belief, or is it as silly as I think it is?

The first affirmation is true, an eldar loss is a much bigger deal than a Space Marine's death, because the latter is more easily replaceable and is considered as only a tiny bit more than military hardware by the higher authorities of the Imperium and because manpower in general is the primal and most unlimited ressource of the Imperium. They should in my mind rather be compared with Wraith constructs : both need to be implanted with a specific element that allow them to exist (spirit stone and geneseed/implants), both are purely militaristic elements that get thrown into war out of "desperation". Again, that is only how I consider things, so it might be completely headcanon.

Now, given the sheer size and population of Eldar Craftworlds, for the Eldar regular military (Aspects, Saim-Hann rough riders, autarchs, Ulthwe's special guardians, etc) to number only 1 million soldiers seems a bit exxagerated. There is probably many times more than that.

There are more Eldar than SM, given that Eldar are an entire race, and SM merely some of the physically best specimens of another, albeit larger, race.

However, unlike Eldar, new Space Marines can be trained, new Chapters can be created, new wargear and geneseed cultivated. A loss hurts, but can be replaced.
Eldar, on the other hand, take a long time to be conceived, mature, and with the threat of Slaanesh consuming unprotected souls, Eldar losses hurt far more than Marines do. An Eldar could take centuries to grow, whereas a power armoured Marine can be battle-ready in around forty/fifty years.

There is, at most, several million marines. The Dark Eldar alone very likely number more than that, never mind the more numerous Craftworld Eldar (Dark Eldar have the equivalent of one moon-sized city, Craftworld Eldar have a few dozen moon-sized cities).

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There are more Eldar than SM, given that Eldar are an entire race, and SM merely some of the physically best specimens of another, albeit larger, race.

However, unlike Eldar, new Space Marines can be trained, new Chapters can be created, new wargear and geneseed cultivated. A loss hurts, but can be replaced.
Eldar, on the other hand, take a long time to be conceived, mature, and with the threat of Slaanesh consuming unprotected souls, Eldar losses hurt far more than Marines do. An Eldar could take centuries to grow, whereas a power armoured Marine can be battle-ready in around forty/fifty years.

On the other hand a dead Marine is dead. A dead Eldar is a Wraith now.

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines.

There is one million. This is possibly one of the most consistent facts in all of 40k.

I also think Dark Eldar are supposed to be more numerous than Eldar due to the utterly ridiculous sheer scale of Commorragh and their use of cloning.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines.

There is one million. This is possibly one of the most consistent facts in all of 40k.

Evidence? I've never heard this?
(I don't doubt it I would just like to know )

Wulfthrad wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines.

There is one million. This is possibly one of the most consistent facts in all of 40k.

Evidence? I've never heard this?
(I don't doubt it I would just like to know )

A few (of many) sources:

"It is believed that there are approximately a thousand in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy." - Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

"There have been further foundings since then so that by the 41st Millennium there are reputed to be a thousand or more Chapters of Space Marines." ~ Insignium Astartes

Picture from 6th edition Space Marine Codex page 15

A thousand chapters of a thousand marines = 1 million

 Gashrog wrote:

Wulfthrad wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines.

There is one million. This is possibly one of the most consistent facts in all of 40k.

Evidence? I've never heard this?
(I don't doubt it I would just like to know )

A few (of many) sources:

"It is believed that there are approximately a thousand in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy." - Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

"There have been further foundings since then so that by the 41st Millennium there are reputed to be a thousand or more Chapters of Space Marines." ~ Insignium Astartes

Picture from 6th edition Space Marine Codex page 15

A thousand chapters of a thousand marines = 1 million

around 1 million* given that some chapters are above the 1000 limitations (black templars, space wolves, etc), and that this limitation only concern battle-brothers, it doesn't take officers, librarians, techmarines, chaplains, honour guards, some vehicle crews it seems, etc into account. So at full force, each chapter has more than 1000 space marines, more like between 1100-1300. So definitely above 1 million grand total. But since most chapters aren't at full-force all the time, and that never are they all at full-force at the same time, and some being dangerously under-strength, there might be less than a million.

I remember reading somewhere that because of the Eldar's longer lifespan, they take a lot longer to reach physical maturity than other races.

By contrast a Space Marine takes 20 years from his conception (as a human baby) to being battle-ready.

Not to mention the only reason Space Marines themselves are limited in numbers is because of the self-imposed limit set by the Codex Astartes so the Horus Heresy doesn't occur again. I'm guessing if they lift that limit, every space marine chapter (and there's more space marine chapters than there were legions by magnitudes) would start reaching legion strength within a millenium.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
There are more Eldar than SM, given that Eldar are an entire race, and SM merely some of the physically best specimens of another, albeit larger, race.

However, unlike Eldar, new Space Marines can be trained, new Chapters can be created, new wargear and geneseed cultivated. A loss hurts, but can be replaced.
Eldar, on the other hand, take a long time to be conceived, mature, and with the threat of Slaanesh consuming unprotected souls, Eldar losses hurt far more than Marines do. An Eldar could take centuries to grow, whereas a power armoured Marine can be battle-ready in around forty/fifty years.

Given that the lifespan of an Eldar is around a thousand years, barring trickery, I doubt that conception to fully trained takes centuries. If it did, that would be a very poor reflection on Eldar IQ. And Old One IQ.

GW has been cagey with the size of the craftworlds, both physically and population wise, but they're huge. Iyanden, admittedly the largest, fought off a large tendril of the Tyranid Hive Fleet Kraken. Given that most industrialized worlds could not accomplish that, the Eldar craftworlds are both highly advanced and likely millions, if not tens of millions, strong. there are also dozens, if not more, of cratworlds, putting the overall elder population likely into the Billions.

However, the cost to a society for the loss of an eldar life, compared to a space marine, is very different. If guardsmen are a renewable resource in the same way that wheat is, Space marines are like timber trees, which take decades to really renew, and Eldar are like Redwoods or old growth forest that require centuries to develop.

If there's supposed to be 1000 marines in a chapter, and roughly 1000 chapters are active in the Imperium (assume overmanned chapters like the Space Wolves and Black Templars balance out undermanned chapters like the Lamenters just for simplicity).

We could presume that there should be at any given time 1,000,000 Space Marines in the Galaxy (not including renegades and Chaos), not accounting for casualties.

As I recall Iyanden alone had billions of Eldar before Kraken happened. So assuming Iyanden didn't have a giant population compared to the other major Craftworlds then there are definitely a LOT of Eldar.

nvm

pm713 wrote:
As I recall Iyanden alone had billions of Eldar before Kraken happened. So assuming Iyanden didn't have a giant population compared to the other major Craftworlds then there are definitely a LOT of Eldar.

Iyandan was big, but not a wild outlier. Given that Iyandan lost 3/4 of it's population in the war, and is now considered under populated, that seems to suggest that Iyandan was probably not more than twice the size of a normal craftworld, such that after a 75% reduction, it's now half the size of a normal craftworld.

If you count only Aspect Warriors, there might not be that much more of them than Space Marines. Craftworld Eldars are perhapse a few dozen billion strong in the entire galaxy at most. Considering that only 1 eldar in 1000 or so will be a Aspect Warrior highly trained enough to take to the field, that doesn't leave much of them...

 Polonius wrote:

pm713 wrote:
As I recall Iyanden alone had billions of Eldar before Kraken happened. So assuming Iyanden didn't have a giant population compared to the other major Craftworlds then there are definitely a LOT of Eldar.

Iyandan was big, but not a wild outlier. Given that Iyandan lost 3/4 of it's population in the war, and is now considered under populated, that seems to suggest that Iyandan was probably not more than twice the size of a normal craftworld, such that after a 75% reduction, it's now half the size of a normal craftworld.

I think I read somewhere that it was more like 90% Iyanden lost. But still, it's not much of a stretch to consider the likes of Saim-Hann, Biel-Tan, Ulthwe and Alaitoc to also be populated in the billions, and the likes of Mymeara, Il-kaithe and Altansar to have large populations as well. Thats a lot of Eldar. At this point it can be argued that there are more Aspect Warriors than Space Marines in total.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines. The Dark Eldar alone very likely number more than that, never mind the more numerous Craftworld Eldar (Dark Eldar have the equivalent of one moon-sized city, Craftworld Eldar have a few dozen moon-sized cities).

I'd say it was guaranteed that there are more Dark Eldar than Craftworlders, what with vat cloning and the ability to bring the dead back to life. As for the size of Commoragh, it might be impossible to measure since it doesn't occupy a single space but multiple pockets of reality connected via the webway.

I thought Eldar couldn't breed anymore? Or did I dream that lol either way, I don't think the numbers matter so much as people have pointed out, Marines can be recruited and trained in a matter of years. The Eldar are very much a dying race, a loss for them will be felt much more keenly.

Also Space Marines are emotionally detached from the populace in a way, they are bred for war killing machines. Sure it's an expensive loss if one dies, but not so much of a loss to society like I presume losing an Eldar warrior is.

A thousand chapters of a thousand marines = 1 million

around 1 million* given that some chapters are above the 1000 limitations (black templars, space wolves, etc), and that this limitation only concern battle-brothers, it doesn't take officers, librarians, techmarines, chaplains, honour guards, some vehicle crews it seems, etc into account. So at full force, each chapter has more than 1000 space marines, more like between 1100-1300. So definitely above 1 million grand total. But since most chapters aren't at full-force all the time, and that never are they all at full-force at the same time, and some being dangerously under-strength, there might be less than a million.

"It is believed that there are approximately a thousand in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy." - Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

"There have been further foundings since then so that by the 41st Millennium there are reputed to be a thousand or more Chapters of Space Marines." ~ Insignium Astartes

Firstly, a thousand chapters is an in universe supposition, not a fact. 'Reputed and believed.'

Secondly, a thousand is human shorthand for 'a lot'. 'I'll love you for a thousand years' isn't referring to a discrete measure of time, it's a conceptual eternity. A 'thousand chapters' is just meant to say that there are too many to count, too many to know- allowing the kind of homebrew that 40k as a setting is designed to permit.

Finally, the number of chapters, plus marines per chapter is ultimately irrelevant. Humans breed like rats and Eldar breed like elephants. The Eldar are noted to have a very long gestation cycle requiring multiple transfers of DNA and an Eldar will be considered a child for far longer than a human. The rigorous path system that controls the Eldar craftworlds may also keep them too focused ( a flower arranging Exarch will be consumed by his craft, stuck on his path forever) and some Eldar may not wish to bring children into such a hostile galaxy.

There will always be humans to replace the marines that fall- the issue is geneseed, which is actually a really efficient way of producing supersoldiers. Kill a line Astartes and destroy his geneseed- if he had served for longer than 5 years, the chapter loses 1 geneseed, the seed from his brothers will make up the slack.

Kill an Eldar guardian and crush his soulstone- a life of a thousand years and all its knowledge and experience is lost to the Eldar forever. Moreover his soul will not strengthen Ynnead(Space-Elf's new god) but be consumed by Space-Elf Satan.

An Eldar life really is more valuable to the Eldar than a marine's life is to his chapter.
Which makes Fire Dragons a head scratcher.

 =Angel= wrote:
Firstly, a thousand chapters is an in universe supposition, not a fact. 'Reputed and believed.'

Secondly, a thousand is human shorthand for 'a lot'. 'I'll love you for a thousand years' isn't referring to a discrete measure of time, it's a conceptual eternity. A 'thousand chapters' is just meant to say that there are too many to count, too many to know- allowing the kind of homebrew that 40k as a setting is designed to permit.

This is wrong. The 1000 number has been quoted since at least the early nineties. It has been quoted as in-game knowledge, and factual knowledge. There is simply no way out of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, I just checked Rogue Trader, and on page 155, the first sentence is "Each of the thousand chapters has its own history, rituals and traditions."

Now, the details of that bit of fluff have evolved somewhat, but have certainly never been superseded.

 Fifty wrote:

 =Angel= wrote:
Firstly, a thousand chapters is an in universe supposition, not a fact. 'Reputed and believed.'

Secondly, a thousand is human shorthand for 'a lot'. 'I'll love you for a thousand years' isn't referring to a discrete measure of time, it's a conceptual eternity. A 'thousand chapters' is just meant to say that there are too many to count, too many to know- allowing the kind of homebrew that 40k as a setting is designed to permit.

This is wrong. The 1000 number has been quoted since at least the early nineties. It has been quoted as in-game knowledge, and factual knowledge. There is simply no way out of this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, I just checked Rogue Trader, and on page 155, the first sentence is "Each of the thousand chapters has its own history, rituals and traditions."

Now, the details of that bit of fluff have evolved somewhat, but have certainly never been superseded.

The 1000 number has been quoted since rogue trader, but again, its not a hard number. It's a handwave number. Chapters die all the time, chapters are founded all the time. Chapters are presumed dead, largely forgotten about and then suddenly show up, like the Space Sharks/Carcherodons.
The records of ancient foundings are unclear:

Lexicanum wrote:It is unknown how many Successor Chapters were created - exactly how many Chapters were founded and from which Legions is unclear. The Apocrypha of Davio attempted to categorize them all, but was never completed. Some survive to this day, the proud inheritors of their Legion's histories and the traditions of their Primarch. One of the earliest known accounts is found within a version of the Codex Astartes known as the Apocrypha of Skaros claiming that the Ultramarines Legion sired twenty-three Primogenitor Chapters, but omitted to list them all.

23 chapters? From the largest legion?
The fact that chapters are formed in response to great perils also means that during such turbulent times, records either get lost or are not kept properly.

Not even the High-Lords know precisely how many chapters there are- there are estimated 1000.

Yes. Maybe a few more, but not that many. The Legions lost a LOT of marines during the heresy....

Bear in mind that the Ultramarines took two of the biggest punches to the face during the Heresy - Calth cost them a good third of the active legion strength in the space of about an hour, and the campaign to liberate mars cost them another quarter of it.

It's worth noting that Chapters are also numbered. The Grey Knights are numbered 666 out of 1000 due to the numbers significance as a weapon against Chaos - despite there only being 400 chapters in existence at their time of creation. Similarly, after the destruction of the Star Scorpions, the Mentor Legion took up the Number 888.

So a few of the Chapters we know about do have numbers, although it seems GW couldn't be bothered to give all of them numbers. Similarly, we already know Chapters 1-20 as being the original Legions (Even if 2 are lost/purged and 9 are Traitors). I'd guess that from an in-universe point of view, all the Chapters have numbers, but from our perspective it's just GW don't think it's relevant to waste time on numbering them. Nevertheless, it's widely accepted that there are approx 1000 Chapters each of approx 1000 marines give an approx total of just over 1 million marines.

Angel, agreed, but you were trying to claim that 1000 means merely "many". 1000 is an approximation, but it is a close one, and no matter how much you want to pretend differently, it is between 850 and 1150. Probably much, much closer.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
It's worth noting that Chapters are also numbered. The Grey Knights are numbered 666 out of 1000 due to the numbers significance as a weapon against Chaos - despite there only being 400 chapters in existence at their time of creation. Similarly, after the destruction of the Star Scorpions, the Mentor Legion took up the Number 888.

So a few of the Chapters we know about do have numbers, although it seems GW couldn't be bothered to give all of them numbers. Similarly, we already know Chapters 1-20 as being the original Legions (Even if 2 are lost/purged and 9 are Traitors). I'd guess that from an in-universe point of view, all the Chapters have numbers, but from our perspective it's just GW don't think it's relevant to waste time on numbering them. Nevertheless, it's widely accepted that there are approx 1000 Chapters each of approx 1000 marines give an approx total of just over 1 million marines.

That's an interesting point. When a chapter dies (or is presumed dead) does the number pass on to a newly founded chapter? Is there a spreadsheet on Terra with 1000 numbers and a clerk constantly deleting names/heraldry fields and putting new ones in?
If they all have numbers then you'd think they have a very good idea of how many chapters there are.
You'd also have to assume that when a chapter who was thought destroyed returns after an absence that they'd share a number with some new kids on the block chapter.

I have to say, I don't like the idea of chapters flying around with number plates that the highlords gave them. Seems to eat away at chapter autonomy.

 Fifty wrote:
Angel, agreed, but you were trying to claim that 1000 means merely "many". 1000 is an approximation, but it is a close one, and no matter how much you want to pretend differently, it is between 850 and 1150. Probably much, much closer.

I'll agree to disgree.
My approach is that a hard figure for 40k does no-one a service (In the same way that the number of Eldar craftworlds is unknown) and 'probably about 1000, maybe, as far as we know' is a nice way of saying 'we don't know' or 'less than 2000'.
When the authors wrote 1000, I'm certain they meant 'many', but not so many that the spacelanes are clogged with battlebarges.

Because it's unknown, it just as easily be a square 1000 at any given time, just as it could easily be less or more.

Aside from all this, the real thrust of my argument was that, as precious as a battlebrother is to his chapter, representing a lifetime of brotherhood and duty and an investment of 10 years of training, resources and geneseed, an Eldar is more precious still to his craftworld, representing a tie to the dying Eldar empire, culture and race who could have contributed to their society for 1000's of years.
After all, who will walk the path of Grief (Crying Rivers shrine) now that Dúdelnesh has been cruelly slain by a monkeigh landmine whilst on Guardian duty, his soulstone accidentally crushed by the wraithknight sent to relieve his team?

 Gashrog wrote:

Wulfthrad wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines.

There is one million. This is possibly one of the most consistent facts in all of 40k.

Evidence? I've never heard this?
(I don't doubt it I would just like to know )

A few (of many) sources:

"It is believed that there are approximately a thousand in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy." - Index Astartes: Codex Astartes

"There have been further foundings since then so that by the 41st Millennium there are reputed to be a thousand or more Chapters of Space Marines." ~ Insignium Astartes

Picture from 6th edition Space Marine Codex page 15

A thousand chapters of a thousand marines = 1 million

Most chapters seem to be ~1000 marines, not quite exact. If I remember right the ultras themselves are even a tiny bit over if you're counting marine crew for things as well.

 Fifty wrote:
Angel, agreed, but you were trying to claim that 1000 means merely "many". 1000 is an approximation, but it is a close one, and no matter how much you want to pretend differently, it is between 850 and 1150. Probably much, much closer.

I'd agree with this.

Yes, the 40k background heavily employs unreliable narrators, which is part of it's charm. The thing is, even the unreliable narrators of the Imperium admit that are "about" a 1000 chapters. Sure, there might be a dozen chapter thought lost that are secretly working for the inquisition, or chapters conducting long term operations in the ghost starts, or chapters kept off the books, etc, etc. But there is also the prosaic reality of having no instantaneous communications, essentially autonomous chapters, and a fairly high catastrophic loss rate.

Imagine trying to come up with an answer to the question "how many family owned restaurants are in the United States." It sounds simple, but while counting, you'll gain some, and lose some, and so you'll never do more than a estimate. That said, if you come up with 1.2 million restaurants, odds are the real number is within a few percentage points of that.

To that end, the Astartes still recruit on worlds, they need contracts with the AdMech for supplies, they have fleets, etc. There likely aren't 10,000 chapters.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
It's worth noting that Chapters are also numbered. The Grey Knights are numbered 666 out of 1000 due to the numbers significance as a weapon against Chaos - despite there only being 400 chapters in existence at their time of creation. Similarly, after the destruction of the Star Scorpions, the Mentor Legion took up the Number 888.

So a few of the Chapters we know about do have numbers, although it seems GW couldn't be bothered to give all of them numbers. Similarly, we already know Chapters 1-20 as being the original Legions (Even if 2 are lost/purged and 9 are Traitors). I'd guess that from an in-universe point of view, all the Chapters have numbers, but from our perspective it's just GW don't think it's relevant to waste time on numbering them. Nevertheless, it's widely accepted that there are approx 1000 Chapters each of approx 1000 marines give an approx total of just over 1 million marines.

I'm not sure about that, I mean the Grey Knights were founded during the Horus Heresy, there weren't any chapters then they were still legions.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
There is, at most, several million marines.

There is one million. This is possibly one of the most consistent facts in all of 40k.

I also think Dark Eldar are supposed to be more numerous than Eldar due to the utterly ridiculous sheer scale of Commorragh and their use of cloning.

I would be prepared to accept that the thousand chapters of a thousand battle brothers is a bardic tale style generalisation. The party line, not the actual truth. We have SM chapters stopping what emerges from whole hivefleets cold with their bolters, something has to give. I would take that to be the propaganda hype of the Adeptus Astartes. after all when we play 1500pts SM are not that superior, ork and guard armies with only 3:1 odds can match them.

I dont thin the fluff has to be in any way sacrificed to work alongside this principle. After all the hype behind the Adeptus Astartes is a Moral Truth, and the Imperium defends that ideology with a heavy hand.

Yes a company of one hundred Ultramarines can smash a hive fleet and drive it from a planet. I believe! I believe! The Inquisition should look elsewhere to find doubt.