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 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The thread asked for most powerful army, not lists. The marine army isnt that good, it has a few specific lists that are good.

By that logic Tau and necrons are not that good as well, since their power is from formations and synergy.

Tau are pretty decent without formations, but I would agree that they work with synergy. Markerlight synergy is the best way to make the Tau a good faction. They are brilliant.

 d00mspire wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The thread asked for most powerful army, not lists. The marine army isnt that good, it has a few specific lists that are good.

By that logic Tau and necrons are not that good as well, since their power is from formations and synergy.

Tau are pretty decent without formations, but I would agree that they work with synergy. Markerlight synergy is the best way to make the Tau a good faction. They are brilliant.

Marines have zero synergy other than psychic buffs. Each unit is its own little island of fail without being abusive.

Marines undoubtedly have the best superfriends. Or maybe that's SW? Either way, the fall off from abusive super friends lists is pretty large. Even the gladius suffers against a good number of lists in comparison.

Martel732 wrote:
Not exactly. The average tau or necron unit is still much better than the averagd marine unit. Marinez need very specific builds to be good, tau and necrons have way more options.

I wouldn't say that. Wraiths and stormsurges work without synergy and formations, but anything else is not over the top in a usual CAD. I say that as a fluffy CSM player. Things become unbalanced once you factor in markerlights and formations for Tau and Decurion/ Harvest for necrons. Without those they are okay.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Not exactly. The average tau or necron unit is still much better than the averagd marine unit. Marinez need very specific builds to be good, tau and necrons have way more options.

I wouldn't say that. Wraiths and stormsurges work without synergy and formations, but anything else is not over the top in a usual CAD. I say that as a fluffy CSM player. Things become unbalanced once you factor in markerlights and formations for Tau and Decurion/ Harvest for necrons. Without those they are okay.

Tau have how many sources of markerlights? Non-OP sources, even. Wraiths are still quite good with no buffs, as are Stormsurges. Marines? Not so much.

BossJakadakk wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

GrafWattenburg wrote:
Superfriends or Eldar, no doubt.

For example, take this one-source battleforged Eldar 1735p army:

Core: Pale Courts Battlehost (Aspect Lord Shrine, Halls of Martial Splendour)

So by "one source" you mean two sources.

what? No its a single Eldar decurion detachment, how is it two sources?

Because Pale Courts Battlehost isn't in the Eldar Codex, you need the IA book as well as the codex to run it. One army, one faction, two sources

That was the first thing that ran through my head seeing your post, at least. IDK if that's how "one-source" is commonly defined within the community, though, so I didn't comment on it. But I see that list as having two sources.

Ah, I meant as in formations/detachments, in the way most tournaments say i.e "3 source limit" meaning you can bring up to three different formations/detachments, not more. Didn't even think of number of books as I typically have to bring IA:13, IA:5 2nd edition, the CSM codex, the Daemons codex and Crimson Slaughter + perhaps a dataslate or three to play my army, lol.

I wouldn't call Marines the most powerful army. They epitomize the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" which tends to keep them very high on the list, but prevents them from preforming well against very specialized armies (like Eldar and Tau).

If you were trying to get the overall most powerful army "list", an Eldar CAD is where you need to start. Scaterbikes and WK list only have fewer weaknesses that any other units in the game.
2 of those weaknessed are:
A) Drop Pod Grav, and LOTS of it and
B) Flyer Spam, whether it be Dakka Flyrants or loads of HelDrakes.

So now that we have or CAD and know it's weaknesses, what powerful addition could we add? What formation isn't weak against those threats and can, in fact, out Alpha-Strike an Alpha-Strike?
Oh yeah, Riptide-Wing.

I'm actually surprised that this list isn't more common:

Eldar CAD:
Farseer on bike
5 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes

WK (Wraithcannons or Glaive/Shiled, take your pick) w/ 2 Scatter lasers

Void Shield Generator w/ 3 Shields

Riptide-Wing:
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT

------------------------------------and that a good few points under 1850

-

To me Necrons are the most powerful, I think it's because a newbie could pick up Necrons and do well. A beginner I think would have trouble with Eldar if they weren't sure what to take.
I would much rather take my chances against an Eldar army than a Necron one. Scatbikes don't scare me, wraiths do.

 cox.dan2 wrote:
To me Necrons are the most powerful, I think it's because a newbie could pick up Necrons and do well. A beginner I think would have trouble with Eldar if they weren't sure what to take.
I would much rather take my chances against an Eldar army than a Necron one. Scatbikes don't scare me, wraiths do.

I've seen people without a clue what they're doing smash their way through games with the crutches of scatbikes and wraithknights. That's how op they are. Can't do that with Necrons.

pm713 wrote:

 cox.dan2 wrote:
To me Necrons are the most powerful, I think it's because a newbie could pick up Necrons and do well. A beginner I think would have trouble with Eldar if they weren't sure what to take.
I would much rather take my chances against an Eldar army than a Necron one. Scatbikes don't scare me, wraiths do.

I've seen people without a clue what they're doing smash their way through games with the crutches of scatbikes and wraithknights. That's how op they are. Can't do that with Necrons.

Of course you can. Build Decurion and everything in your army is so hardy it doesn't really matter what you use, anyone that isn't very skilled will have trouble taking it down as you march forward. If we're talking a total noob against an experienced top tier player, then honestly, there is no army that can smash their way through. while the armies are incredibly unbalanced, a top tier competitive player will still be able to take on anything a new player can throw at him.

 Purifier wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 cox.dan2 wrote:
To me Necrons are the most powerful, I think it's because a newbie could pick up Necrons and do well. A beginner I think would have trouble with Eldar if they weren't sure what to take.
I would much rather take my chances against an Eldar army than a Necron one. Scatbikes don't scare me, wraiths do.

I've seen people without a clue what they're doing smash their way through games with the crutches of scatbikes and wraithknights. That's how op they are. Can't do that with Necrons.

Of course you can. Build Decurion and everything in your army is so hardy it doesn't really matter what you use, anyone that isn't very skilled will have trouble taking it down as you march forward. If we're talking a total noob against an experienced top tier player, then honestly, there is no army that can smash their way through. while the armies are incredibly unbalanced, a top tier competitive player will still be able to take on anything a new player can throw at him.

Last I checked Necrons have to move toward the enemy to do damage and don't have any unit that will literally wipe units out by aiming at them.

pm713 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 cox.dan2 wrote:
To me Necrons are the most powerful, I think it's because a newbie could pick up Necrons and do well. A beginner I think would have trouble with Eldar if they weren't sure what to take.
I would much rather take my chances against an Eldar army than a Necron one. Scatbikes don't scare me, wraiths do.

I've seen people without a clue what they're doing smash their way through games with the crutches of scatbikes and wraithknights. That's how op they are. Can't do that with Necrons.

Of course you can. Build Decurion and everything in your army is so hardy it doesn't really matter what you use, anyone that isn't very skilled will have trouble taking it down as you march forward. If we're talking a total noob against an experienced top tier player, then honestly, there is no army that can smash their way through. while the armies are incredibly unbalanced, a top tier competitive player will still be able to take on anything a new player can throw at him.

Last I checked Necrons have to move toward the enemy to do damage and don't have any unit that will literally wipe units out by aiming at them.

Guess it has been a long time since you checked.

Necrons have to move toward the enemy to do damage

I know. I said that.

anyone that isn't very skilled will have trouble taking it down as you march forward.

The thing about Necrons is they don't die, they won't blast you off the table turn 1, but they'll keeping coming like robotic cockroaches. They'll reanimate, make 3+ invuls, and Gauss the crap out of armies.
I'm not saying Eldar aren't elite/OP because they definitely are and have OP weapons.

 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

I wouldn't call Marines the most powerful army. They epitomize the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" which tends to keep them very high on the list, but prevents them from preforming well against very specialized armies (like Eldar and Tau).

If you were trying to get the overall most powerful army "list", an Eldar CAD is where you need to start. Scaterbikes and WK list only have fewer weaknesses that any other units in the game.
2 of those weaknessed are:
A) Drop Pod Grav, and LOTS of it and
B) Flyer Spam, whether it be Dakka Flyrants or loads of HelDrakes.

So now that we have or CAD and know it's weaknesses, what powerful addition could we add? What formation isn't weak against those threats and can, in fact, out Alpha-Strike an Alpha-Strike?
Oh yeah, Riptide-Wing.

I'm actually surprised that this list isn't more common:

Spoiler:

Eldar CAD:
Farseer on bike
5 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes

WK (Wraithcannons or Glaive/Shiled, take your pick) w/ 2 Scatter lasers

Void Shield Generator w/ 3 Shields

Riptide-Wing:
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT

------------------------------------and that a good few points under 1850

-

It's not more common because paying for scatbike models is a pain in the bank, and the list would get one pickup game before the group exiled whoever brought it.

 Selym wrote:

 Galef wrote:

Spoiler:

I wouldn't call Marines the most powerful army. They epitomize the "Jack of all trades, Master of none" which tends to keep them very high on the list, but prevents them from preforming well against very specialized armies (like Eldar and Tau).

If you were trying to get the overall most powerful army "list", an Eldar CAD is where you need to start. Scaterbikes and WK list only have fewer weaknesses that any other units in the game.
2 of those weaknessed are:
A) Drop Pod Grav, and LOTS of it and
B) Flyer Spam, whether it be Dakka Flyrants or loads of HelDrakes.

So now that we have or CAD and know it's weaknesses, what powerful addition could we add? What formation isn't weak against those threats and can, in fact, out Alpha-Strike an Alpha-Strike?
Oh yeah, Riptide-Wing.

I'm actually surprised that this list isn't more common:

Spoiler:

Eldar CAD:
Farseer on bike
5 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes
3 Scatter bikes

WK (Wraithcannons or Glaive/Shiled, take your pick) w/ 2 Scatter lasers

Void Shield Generator w/ 3 Shields

Riptide-Wing:
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT
Riptide with Ion A, EWO & VT

------------------------------------and that a good few points under 1850

-

It's not more common because paying for scatbike models is a pain in the bank, and the list would get one pickup game before the group exiled whoever brought it.

I feel the need to burn all knowledge of that list before the local TFG sees it. It looks nasty.

 Selym wrote:
Simple, no-thought-required list I just made up, using 2000 points and Eldar CAD. Fairly few shenanigans, and no formations, but will beat out most other armies quite happily:

Eldar:

Farseer Skyrunner w/Singing Spear [120 pts]
Farseer Skyrunner w/Singing Spear [120 pts]

Windriders (x10) w/10x Scatterlasers [270 pts]
Windriders (x10) w/10x Scatterlasers [270 pts]

Warp Spiders [95 pts]
Wraithguard (x5) [160 pts]
Wave Serpent w/Bright Lance [115 pts]

Fire Prism [125 pts]
Fire Prism [125 pts]
Nightspinners (x2) [200 pts]

Wraithknight [295 pts]

[1,995 pts]

This list is garbage. 10 man scat packs? What a joke, thier footprint is huge and its a complete waste/overkill to use 40 s6 shots at a single target. Wraithknight with no scatterlazer so you can use D cannons on real threats but still shoot the lazers at what you want to charge. Non FW eldar tanks including fire prisms and night spinners are simply not good. Relatively low armor and when you jink you cant even fire thier main guns, no thanks.

You did say you slapped this list together and it shows. You clearly dont play eldar and just think you can field anything and win games. This is as mediocre an eldar list (with no formations) as ive ever seen. You really shouldnt just buy the hype that any eldar units can be thrown on a table and the game is won.

Tis true, only played one game of eldar, but it's better than the crap you can put together in the other armies I have played.

Split up the scatbikes a bit, works better.

 cox.dan2 wrote:
To me Necrons are the most powerful, I think it's because a newbie could pick up Necrons and do well. A beginner I think would have trouble with Eldar if they weren't sure what to take.
I would much rather take my chances against an Eldar army than a Necron one. Scatbikes don't scare me, wraiths do.

Necrons lack dakka to an extent, they lack a lot of abilities. They only really excel in durability. 4+ armor saves with 4+ RP makes it hard to kill them.

Eldar on the other hand are the Easy mode of Warhammer 40k. Scat Bikes, Wraithknights, Spiders...these are idiot proof units. It doesn't take much skill to put 12 bikes on the table, say "I am going to shoot that unit" and then wipe it out in a single turn.

While we're discussing what various armies are good at...

What are Sisters of Battle good at?

My general lack of being able to have an army on the table after turn 3 in recent years has made me wonder whether I haven't been playing to their strengths, but that would require me to know what their strengths are.

So far all I can think of is that they're less-durable Space Marines who are worse in melee but have a potent DPS cooldown they can use sometimes.

 Pouncey wrote:
While we're discussing what various armies are good at...

What are Sisters of Battle good at?

My general lack of being able to have an army on the table after turn 3 in recent years has made me wonder whether I haven't been playing to their strengths, but that would require me to know what their strengths are.

So far all I can think of is that they're less-durable Space Marines who are worse in melee but have a potent DPS cooldown they can use sometimes.

Fielding mass bolters. Points per bolter, they have an amazing ratio... but what good is that when the bolter gets left further and further behind with every passing day?

Their main strength right now is that they are IoM, so they can ally in most anything. And that's not really an amazing strength. The Sisters, like many of the smaller codex (skitarii, tempestus, gk, etc) are mainly a source for an ally detachment now. They're missing too many parts to be a full army on their own.

If I were you (or if I were still playing Sisters,) I'd start by allying in some Grav Cents. Paint them like your sisters and do a headswap to some cool female head. After that, you've already started to get your mits into the SM codex and you can start looking at what is in there that will help you against whatever is in your local meta. Modifying stuff can be a lot of fun.

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
While we're discussing what various armies are good at...

What are Sisters of Battle good at?

My general lack of being able to have an army on the table after turn 3 in recent years has made me wonder whether I haven't been playing to their strengths, but that would require me to know what their strengths are.

So far all I can think of is that they're less-durable Space Marines who are worse in melee but have a potent DPS cooldown they can use sometimes.

Fielding mass bolters. Points per bolter, they have an amazing ratio... but what good is that when the bolter gets left further and further behind with every passing day?

Their main strength right now is that they are IoM, so they can ally in most anything. And that's not really an amazing strength. The Sisters, like many of the smaller codex (skitarii, tempestus, gk, etc) are mainly a source for an ally detachment now. They're missing too many parts to be a full army on their own.

Uhh, given that my only opponent fields a lot of foot horde armies without anything heavier than a light dreadnought, I think that "mass bolters" thing is sounding pretty good for my local "meta".

That said, I do really, REALLY like the concept of a combined IoM army that bulks out most of its stuff with IG, has a couple of squads of Sororitas, and one or two small squads of Marines. Just from a fluff perspective it sounds almost perfect.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
While we're discussing what various armies are good at...

What are Sisters of Battle good at?

My general lack of being able to have an army on the table after turn 3 in recent years has made me wonder whether I haven't been playing to their strengths, but that would require me to know what their strengths are.

So far all I can think of is that they're less-durable Space Marines who are worse in melee but have a potent DPS cooldown they can use sometimes.

Fielding mass bolters. Points per bolter, they have an amazing ratio... but what good is that when the bolter gets left further and further behind with every passing day?

Their main strength right now is that they are IoM, so they can ally in most anything. And that's not really an amazing strength. The Sisters, like many of the smaller codex (skitarii, tempestus, gk, etc) are mainly a source for an ally detachment now. They're missing too many parts to be a full army on their own.

Uhh, given that my only opponent fields a lot of foot horde armies without anything heavier than a light dreadnought, I think that "mass bolters" thing is sounding pretty good for my local "meta".

Well, with that in mind, you're probably just wasting too many points getting the shiny toys. You'll want to drop off a lot and replace it with more bolters... an expensive prospect when all there is is metal models, though. A cheaper alternative is allying in some pie-plates from IG or SM.

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
While we're discussing what various armies are good at...

What are Sisters of Battle good at?

My general lack of being able to have an army on the table after turn 3 in recent years has made me wonder whether I haven't been playing to their strengths, but that would require me to know what their strengths are.

So far all I can think of is that they're less-durable Space Marines who are worse in melee but have a potent DPS cooldown they can use sometimes.

Fielding mass bolters. Points per bolter, they have an amazing ratio... but what good is that when the bolter gets left further and further behind with every passing day?

Their main strength right now is that they are IoM, so they can ally in most anything. And that's not really an amazing strength. The Sisters, like many of the smaller codex (skitarii, tempestus, gk, etc) are mainly a source for an ally detachment now. They're missing too many parts to be a full army on their own.

Uhh, given that my only opponent fields a lot of foot horde armies without anything heavier than a light dreadnought, I think that "mass bolters" thing is sounding pretty good for my local "meta".

Well, with that in mind, you're probably just wasting too many points getting the shiny toys. You'll want to drop off a lot and replace it with more bolters... an expensive prospect when all there is is metal models, though. A cheaper alternative is allying in some pie-plates from IG or SM.

I have enough bolter ladies to field a decent army. Though I might take a flamer in each squad purely for a bit of anti-charge protection. Oh, and I found a use a couple of years ago for the stormbolter ladies that came with the old boxed 10-woman squads they sold in their stores - cheap Superiors! : D

And now that you mention it, spending the points on an Exorcist when my opponent's highest AV is 11 seems silly. Particularly in 1,000 point games.

SIsters are not a bad army. You can spam flamers and melta very nicely.

It's just that if you want to win tournaments with them, they are horribly monobuild, and as such not a particularly interesting army to play on a competetive level.

This is another reason people often play Eldar. Not only are they strongest, just about their entire codex is viable competetively, offering massive freedom in experimenting with your own army lists and tactics.

 Ashiraya wrote:
SIsters are not a bad army. You can spam flamers and melta very nicely.

It's just that if you want to win tournaments with them, they are horribly monobuild, and as such not a particularly interesting army to play on a competetive level.

This is another reason people often play Eldar. Not only are they strongest, just about their entire codex is viable competetively, offering massive freedom in experimenting with your own army lists and tactics.

They also have exactly 0 answers to fliers, which is mostly a problem against necron of all people, and they have the double whammy of getting hit hard by both pie plates and grav guns. Sisters as a pure army are a bad army. They are the perfect example of a bad army, but since they are iom, they have the option of fixing what they lack. What they do have are fairly solid base choices. It would be like calling necrons a good army if they were a single sheet with just warriors, immortals and the ghost ark. Very solid base for something else, but you'd hardly call that a "good army."

 Ashiraya wrote:
SIsters are not a bad army. You can spam flamers and melta very nicely.

It's just that if you want to win tournaments with them, they are horribly monobuild, and as such not a particularly interesting army to play on a competetive level.

This is another reason people often play Eldar. Not only are they strongest, just about their entire codex is viable competetively, offering massive freedom in experimenting with your own army lists and tactics.

Tournaments aren't a problem for me. I've got no interest in even entering one.

I think my problem with getting tabled is that my opponent uses a semi-competitive list and has stuck to it long enough to get good with it, whereas I rewrite my list for every game and choose a ton of vaguely fluffy choices each time. Stuff like a Scout Squad with one sniper rifle, one heavy bolter, the Sergeant with a pistol and CCW, and everyone else with a bolter.

 Ashiraya wrote:
SIsters are not a bad army. You can spam flamers and melta very nicely.

It's just that if you want to win tournaments with them, they are horribly monobuild, and as such not a particularly interesting army to play on a competetive level.

This is another reason people often play Eldar. Not only are they strongest, just about their entire codex is viable competetively, offering massive freedom in experimenting with your own army lists and tactics.

Sisters = good army
Space marines = weak




No way, no way at all you can not just be trolling here.

I'm going to change the list I originally posted. I am going to remove Necrons. This means I think that Tau and Eldar are now the strongest armies.

When claiming an army is good, please provide evidence in the form of a list.

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
SIsters are not a bad army. You can spam flamers and melta very nicely.

It's just that if you want to win tournaments with them, they are horribly monobuild, and as such not a particularly interesting army to play on a competetive level.

This is another reason people often play Eldar. Not only are they strongest, just about their entire codex is viable competetively, offering massive freedom in experimenting with your own army lists and tactics.

Sisters = good army
Space marines = weak




No way, no way at all you can not just be trolling here.

I believe I have made my points rather clear. Perhaps saying that SoB is a good army is unclear (they are certainly not well designed) and it is more correct to say that they are a good list (since from a competetive standpoint they are just one list really.)

When I say 'good' I naturally say in comparison to the average. SoB will never challenge Necrons or Eldar, but they can deal massive hurt on even decent armies like Orks, putting them firmly around mid tier - which qualifies as 'good' as far as I can tell.

Also, superfriends is still not the same thing as the overall strength of Codex: Space Marines, and it is getting somewhat tiring to have to repeat that.

 Ashiraya wrote:


they can deal massive hurt on even decent armies like Orks, putting them firmly around mid tier - which qualifies as 'good' as far as I can tell.

Right, because space marines can't obliterate orks. SoB also have no real anti flyer, magic, assault units, are lower toughness, less choice of weapons, lack of units overall, no non-apoc formations, no way to deal with high toughness monsters aside from lucky melta/exorcist shots to name a few things. But yeah, space marines, a codex babyed by GW with awnsers to everything and anything are weaker. For sure, no doubt.

Obviously, Dark eldar is the most powerful army.

They have many Str D weapons and a lot of differents ways to spam invisibility.