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 EverlastingNewb wrote:
Malal life Matters?
I don't even know if Malice/Malal ever was canon, although a God of Disbelief sounds pretty nonsensical & paradox.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
You really only run into issues when you start to ask questions about why dead guys (Eldrad!) get retconned into being up and walking around so their rules can stick around.

Not that difficult. It's more of jump bit backward on time.

If you were to read book about last alliance in LOTR you wouldn't be wondering why Gil-Galad is walking despite being dead in timeframe of lords of the rings would you?

GW simply went bit back in time for their time line. Aka went to the time of last alliance.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:
If all lore is true.... does this mean we can remove ultramarines as a first founding chapter and put Crimson Fists back up there?

Not necessarily. I like the thought that the current Primarch history and list of names is defined by what the 41st millennia has been told rather than what actually happened. And the Heresy novals read more like a docu-drama than a historical record. We "know" there were 20 Primarchs, of which all were found, two were lost, leaving 19 by the end of the Crusade. 20 - 2 =/= 19. Lord Commander Roboute Gilliman did exist, and was elevated to Primarch status. The Crimson Fists were an original Legion and a chapter of the Iron Fists. Is it to hard to concieve that perhaps the history we are told now is not the truth?

That is what 40k canon is for me: All lies, half-truths, and propaganda.

SJ

It does take some getting used to the shifting lore-scape.

One reason my Ultras are the 3rd company is that we used to be the 3rd chapter of the 1st founding. Had some banners with a “III” on them.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
That is what 40k canon is for me: All lies, half-truths, and propaganda.

SJ

Absolutely. Although some of it is more true than others. And there are exceptions to almost everything.

nareik wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
I don't think that the idea of canon can be easily applied to 40k, beyond the names of primarchs, what legion they are attached to etc. Story wise there have been too many contributors, creating too many contradictions, with an editing team too small to maintain consistency at the publication rate they are on.

I like to view all the contradicting fluff as representing different potential futures (or paths of the Skein, if you will). All of them could be true, depending on how events unfold.

My favorite canon was the Tau approach to war. Small units, and not holding objectives if it meant too many losses. Then we play objective games and have an arms buildup where we have the Riptide then the Ghostkeel and the Stormsurge. If I was to play Tau canonically in a normal game, I would need to table my opponent to win; no holding objectives, and so on. hmm. . .

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Not that difficult. It's more of jump bit backward on time.

If you were to read book about last alliance in LOTR you wouldn't be wondering why Gil-Galad is walking despite being dead in timeframe of lords of the rings would you?

GW simply went bit back in time for their time line. Aka went to the time of last alliance.

you mean Warp Travel caused time travel is a GW plot device, and not Chaos being chaos-ey? I thought that it was just the vagaries of the warp, but I suppose that it makes sense when you see multiples of the same special character on the field, fighting each other; it is at different times in their own timeline. . .
More reason to grant Tau access to Warp travel. Then Aun'va can make a comeback as he is traveling through the warp from before he died, even if the Tau Empire didn't have access to such tech before he died. . . nope, doesn't work there. . .

 carldooley wrote:
you mean Warp Travel caused time travel is a GW plot device, and not Chaos being chaos-ey? I thought that it was just the vagaries of the warp, but I suppose that it makes sense when you see multiples of the same special character on the field, fighting each other; it is at different times in their own timeline. . .
More reason to grant Tau access to Warp travel. Then Aun'va can make a comeback as he is traveling through the warp from before he died, even if the Tau Empire didn't have access to such tech before he died. . . nope, doesn't work there. . .

Actually, FTL travel mucking with time travel is realistic.

If you could manage to travel faster than light, you'd start traveling back in time a bit. The faster you go, the further back in time you go.

A 5-minute trip (from the pilot's perspective) at 400 times the speed of light would result in traveling back in time over 13 Earth years.

 Madoch1 wrote:

Old, neglected, retconned races (hrud and saharduin, etc)

If you've been around long enough, hrud even being a thing that existed is novel.

 Pouncey wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
you mean Warp Travel caused time travel is a GW plot device, and not Chaos being chaos-ey? I thought that it was just the vagaries of the warp, but I suppose that it makes sense when you see multiples of the same special character on the field, fighting each other; it is at different times in their own timeline. . .
More reason to grant Tau access to Warp travel. Then Aun'va can make a comeback as he is traveling through the warp from before he died, even if the Tau Empire didn't have access to such tech before he died. . . nope, doesn't work there. . .

Actually, FTL travel mucking with time travel is realistic.

If you could manage to travel faster than light, you'd start traveling back in time a bit. The faster you go, the further back in time you go.

A 5-minute trip (from the pilot's perspective) at 400 times the speed of light would result in traveling back in time over 13 Earth years.

No, that's not how time dialation works, nor how physics models faster than light travel. Physics actually does allow for time travel, however, causality creates issues with events that have already happen. There is an entire branch of theoretical physic ls trying to work out what would happen if travel into the past could occur. Gravity slows time. Speed slows time. The reason why people think faster than light travel is related to time travel is due to the common examples given to demonstrate how traveling faster than light could cause you to be able to see yourself in the past before you left for your journey, which breaks the generally held belief that meaningful information cannot exceed the speed of light. Check out theories on causality and quantum errasure.

SJ

 carldooley wrote:
you mean Warp Travel caused time travel is a GW plot device, and not Chaos being chaos-ey? I thought that it was just the vagaries of the warp, but I suppose that it makes sense when you see multiples of the same special character on the field, fighting each other; it is at different times in their own timeline. . .
More reason to grant Tau access to Warp travel. Then Aun'va can make a comeback as he is traveling through the warp from before he died, even if the Tau Empire didn't have access to such tech before he died. . . nope, doesn't work there. . .

No. I mean GW descripes currently events pre-13th black crusade. Eldrad died DURING 13th black crusade. Obviously he's not dead since death has not yet happened.

Did chaos warp cause characters in Silmarillion being alive despite them being dead during LOTR book?

tneva82 wrote:
No. I mean GW descripes currently events pre-13th black crusade.

Except when they're explicitly describing events post-Black Crusade - like Atlas Infernal.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
No. I mean GW descripes currently events pre-13th black crusade.

Except when they're explicitly describing events post-Black Crusade - like Atlas Infernal.

Yeah well obviously GW can write whatever time frame they want. Otherwise they couldn't write now stuff to horus heresy either. And Tolkien couldn't have worked on Silmarillion either if he was locked with time reference he has to write.

I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

 Selym wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

Be fair, the Imperial Navy absolutely smashed the heretics all over the place! Total command of the stars by the end. That would cut off your supply lines tout d'suite frankly.

Until the ground forces just opened up some man-sized holes in the warp and used that to get around. See: DoW Dark Crusade.

And here we have the reason that Disney scrapped the Star Wars Expanded Universe. It is possible that not all of it is headed to the trash heap, considering that they did bring Thrawn back. . .

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

May I refer you back to here:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
...which seems more logical than an argument that the background events surrounding Eldrad's death have been retconned - except for those which haven't (the Battle of Tyrok Fields, the Relictors being declared Excommunicate, the return of Altansar, the capture of Mordakka, the Third Sphere Expansion etc. etc.) - and we've never actually been told what has and hasn't been retconned but should totally know because reasons.

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

More or less.

I guess some Black Library authors might be doing things with it, but the studio so far has mostly gone back to the beginning.

Probably because GW has learned it's lessons from a player-based campaign.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 Selym wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

Be fair, the Imperial Navy absolutely smashed the heretics all over the place! Total command of the stars by the end. That would cut off your supply lines tout d'suite frankly.

Not to mention free reign on orbitally bombarding Chaos armies into annihilation without any kind of effective response, as well as having free reign with their own troop movements and supply lines to ship to embattled warzones fresh troops. It's kind of a massive strategic advantage.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 Selym wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

Be fair, the Imperial Navy absolutely smashed the heretics all over the place! Total command of the stars by the end. That would cut off your supply lines tout d'suite frankly.

That's funny - here on Earth we seem to get by without interstellar supply lines just fine.

Noone's bombing whatever we use for carrying supplies from space, either

Everything in 40K lore should be considered canon regardless of age, unless GW have overridden it with something more recent, or have explicitly said that it is no longer canon.

Usually if there is canon conflict, it is best to assume that the most recent piece of information that caused the conflict is the one that is now accurate.

G.A

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 Selym wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

Be fair, the Imperial Navy absolutely smashed the heretics all over the place! Total command of the stars by the end. That would cut off your supply lines tout d'suite frankly.

That's funny - here on Earth we seem to get by without interstellar supply lines just fine.

Yeeesss... but we don't have half the US Army on Proxima Centauri either.

Sure, the troops won't starve, or maybe not run out of ammo, but you're not getting any more Black Legionnaires without difficulty, and those Dark Mechanicus Mass Conveyors aren't shipping you any Traitor Titans or anything any time soon either!

 Bobthehero wrote:
Noone's bombing whatever we use for carrying supplies from space, either

We're not relying on 10,000 year old supertech that requires rare and exotic materials to maintain.

Or living on a planet that has likely been strip-mined to fethery.

Or on a planet that may not even have Earth-like processes by which to create useful materials.

That said, the 13th Black Crusade probably included some pretty badass sorcerors that could just wish such things into existence...

 Selym wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Noone's bombing whatever we use for carrying supplies from space, either

We're not relying on 10,000 year old supertech that requires rare and exotic materials to maintain.

Or living on a planet that has likely been strip-mined to fethery.

Or on a planet that may not even have Earth-like processes by which to create useful materials.

That said, the 13th Black Crusade probably included some pretty badass sorcerors that could just wish such things into existence...

Canonically the forces of Chaos can use jegenesh (spelling?) to suck up water from one source, and transport it through the warp to another. But I don't think they can move troops through the warp because they don't have a webway-equivalent.

Quite obviously, modern day Earth is not part of an interstellar battlefront against a galactic empire.

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Noone's bombing whatever we use for carrying supplies from space, either

We're not relying on 10,000 year old supertech that requires rare and exotic materials to maintain.

Or living on a planet that has likely been strip-mined to fethery.

Or on a planet that may not even have Earth-like processes by which to create useful materials.

That said, the 13th Black Crusade probably included some pretty badass sorcerors that could just wish such things into existence...

Canonically the forces of Chaos can use jegenesh (spelling?) to suck up water from one source, and transport it through the warp to another. But I don't think they can move troops through the warp because they don't have a webway-equivalent.

There was a warp portal thing that appeared in Gaunt's Ghosts in His Last Command. IIRC, they where destroyed when the Imperium conducted Exterminatus.

As I said, nothing prevents the Imperial Navy from blowing up said warp portals from orbit. Which is essentially what happened in His Last Command.

Of course Chaos has never really been depicted has having a massive webway scale style system of warp portals. Otherwise what would be the point of the Cadian Gate or any of the Black Crusades up until this point? Chaos could just appear directly on Holy Terra or any other planet with ''warp portals'' and forgo any need to go through the Cadian Sector at all.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Noone's bombing whatever we use for carrying supplies from space, either

A spaceship has more guns than a planet?

Deploying anti space weaponry is a long process, it needs materials and ammunition the Chaos forces probably don't have on the ground.

The planet is also not fully under Chaos control, either.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 Selym wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

Be fair, the Imperial Navy absolutely smashed the heretics all over the place! Total command of the stars by the end. That would cut off your supply lines tout d'suite frankly.

That's funny - here on Earth we seem to get by without interstellar supply lines just fine.

no but in war time we do need supply lines. see the battle of the atlantic. I doubt the forces of chaos are able to scrounge much, given I imagine the Cadian forces are likely conducting scorched earth tactics

BrianDavion wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Gen.Steiner wrote:

 Selym wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
I thought the 13th black crusade was basicly retconned out by now anyway.

If anything results in a non-IOM victory, it isn't canon.

Be fair, the Imperial Navy absolutely smashed the heretics all over the place! Total command of the stars by the end. That would cut off your supply lines tout d'suite frankly.

That's funny - here on Earth we seem to get by without interstellar supply lines just fine.

no but in war time we do need supply lines. see the battle of the atlantic. I doubt the forces of chaos are able to scrounge much, given I imagine the Cadian forces are likely conducting scorched earth tactics

I'm sure they brought along plenty of cultists to eat.