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 Bach wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Either way, the 225 points of Orks could not even stop the Riptide for more than a single turn.

I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the megaknobs in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?

Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?

So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.

The comment about the smart missiles summarizes the problem with this thread. Lots of mis perception, which is unfortunate because it shows that some of the comments here are being fueled by gaming experiences where the rules are not being followed or not understood.

Also, you got the average wrong on the riptide attacks, it would go something like this against megaknobs:

3 attacks X .5 = 1.5 hits X .83 to wound = 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. That's a lot closer to 1 than it is to 2. So on average, it kills a megaknob every two turns. And the Mega knobs can generate enough wounds to best the Riptide in combat for two rounds, for sure, even after suffering 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. Morale checks do matter as a fallback with the riptide is at it'scan go off it's own table edge is game over. So Megaknobs can win this and for comparable points.

In addition you mention the 'plethora of other Tau units". That's interesting because when we add in other Tau units, we are then talking about armies and codexes as being issues rather than just one unit, as you suggest with the Overwatch. Whole different issue.

I will give you the SMS not hitting rear armor, I apparently play against a lot of Tau players who cheat. Regardless, you are still comparing MORE points of orks versus 1 single Riptide. More often then not though, Meganobz are using Trukkz to transport themselves across the table because BWs are just not worth the investment. 110pts for a AV14/12/10vehicle that has ZERO weapons or special rules beyond the ability to transport 22 models.

I won't get involved in to much more theory hammer but I will leave you with this. If the Ork player doesn't bring Meganobz in a Battlewagon we have zero answers for a Riptide not even talking about a riptide wing. Everything else we own is either to slow or to weak to do much to this thing, the best we could theoretically do is swamp it in bodies but that really never works when Tau can delete most of our army before the end of turn 2. Riptides need a nerf, I am sorry you feel you would never again win a game without your cheese but that is the case.

 Bach wrote:


A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike.

I read this quite often. I admit that for some unit could make thematically sense (say, Warp Talons flying out of the warp, or Vanguard Vets because yes).

Nonetheless, I find it a disturbing trend. Is like with thunderwolves and some khorne: they are the few units people use for assaults because the game is so shooty and the use of transports for assault so nerfed that one has to resort to point-and-click units. Killing diversity in the process. How many Howling Banshees do you people face?

What about instead, you know, go back to an acceptable scale of the game in unit size, resilience of big monsters, and overall rate of fire?

There's a Tau formation that always hits the rear. Make sure whether your opponent was using that formation or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bach wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
So, how's this look:

XV104 Riptide - 205ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 3+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry
Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever.
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 205pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 5pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex, but Stimulant Injector increases to 65 points)

Heavy Burst Cannon: R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 8 --OR-- R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Nova-Charge
Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: R30 S7 AP4, Heavy 5
R30 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.

Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all saves. Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase.
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.


Additionally, DELETE the Riptide Wing formation and immediately and forever ban any formations or effects that would replicate its effects.

See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.

A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.

Assault from deepstrike is actually much better vs Eldar than Tau. The only real defense vs Tau is being extremely resilient to damage.

 Bach wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
So, how's this look:

XV104 Riptide - 205ppm
WS2 BS3 S5 T6 A3 W5 I2 Ld 9 Sv 3+/5++, Jet Pack Infantry
Wargear: Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster, Riptide Shield Generator, Nova Reactor, Multi-Tracker, Blacksun Filter
Special Rules: Move Through Cover, Extremely Bulky, Nova Hazard
Nova Hazard: A squad of XV104 Riptides may never be joined by Independent Characters under any circumstances whatsoever.
Options: May add up to two additional Riptide Shas'Vres - 205pts each
May take up to two shielded missile drones (stats as per codex) per Riptide: 25ppm
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Plasma Rifle: free
May replace the Twin-Linked Fusion Blaster with a Twin-Linked Smart Missile System: 5pts
May replace the Heavy Burst Cannon with a Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: 10 pts
May take up to two items from the Support Systems List: (Costs and restrictions as per Codex, but Stimulant Injector increases to 65 points)

Heavy Burst Cannon: R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 8 --OR-- R24 S6 AP4, Heavy 12, Rending, Nova-Charge
Riptide Ion Accelerator Cannon: R30 S7 AP4, Heavy 5
R30 S9 AP2, Ordnance 1, Large Blast, Gets Hot, Nova-Charge, Long Cycle Time
Long Cycle Time: This fire mode may never be used with Interceptor.

Riptide Shield Generator: A model with a Riptide Shield Generator has a 5+ invulnerable save.
Nova Reactor: At the beginning of the Movement Phase, a model with a Nova Reactor may choose to roll 1d6. On a roll of 1 or 2, it suffers a wound that ignores all saves. Feel No Pain may be used normally. On a roll of a 3 or higher, the model may select exactly one benefit from the choices below, which shall last until the beginning of the controlling player's next movement phase.
Primary Weapon: The model may use the Nova-Charge profiles for its primary weapons
Ripple Fire: The model may fire its secondary weapon twice, counting as a single weapon for all purposes
Quick Escape: When making a Thrust Move, the model rolls 4d6 instead of the normal 2d6.


Additionally, DELETE the Riptide Wing formation and immediately and forever ban any formations or effects that would replicate its effects.

See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.

A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.

Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".

SemperMortis wrote:

 Bach wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Either way, the 225 points of Orks could not even stop the Riptide for more than a single turn.

I think you're wrong. If the Riptide is truly undercosted, the 5 extra points for the megaknobs in battlewagon shouldn't matter because apparently the Riptide is undercosted and should be worth more than 225 points?

Well a Riptide fully loaded is 225, a unit of Meganobz and a Battlewagon transport clocks in at 230 naked and around 255 with the usual upgrades. Secondly, That unit will be traveling 12 inches every turn and not firing and using flat out to move an extra 6, it still won't reach the riptide for 2 full turns. On Turn 1 the riptide will be in range to hit it with 4 S5 missiles into its rear armor, glancing on 5s pens on 6. It will get a minimum of 2 full turns of this. When the MA Nobz finally get close enough (if they get that far) to charge they will face Overwatch against a plethora of other Tau units. Lets say by some miracle they whether that storm of fire and suffer zero wounds (something I have yet to be able to do mind you) in CC the Riptide strikes first at Initiative 2 with 3 attacks hitting on 4s, 50/50 2 will hit those 2 will wound (wounding on 2s) and 1 Nob is dead before it gets to swing. When they swing back I have 8(12) 2/3rds of which will hit, so 6 (8), those will mostly wound 5 (7) because of S9. Against a 3++ and 5+++ that equals out to about 1-2 wounds. So worst case scenario the Riptide will be losing CC by 2 and testing at LD7 or more likely at LD8 but very easily he won that CC because MC's means he swings at AP2 at initiative. Fun stuff math isn't it?

So many different scenarios could play out in that math above, but for the most part I gave the Tau player the gakky end of the stick and it still ended up winning or at the very least surviving to fight a 2nd round of combat.

The comment about the smart missiles summarizes the problem with this thread. Lots of mis perception, which is unfortunate because it shows that some of the comments here are being fueled by gaming experiences where the rules are not being followed or not understood.

Also, you got the average wrong on the riptide attacks, it would go something like this against megaknobs:

3 attacks X .5 = 1.5 hits X .83 to wound = 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. That's a lot closer to 1 than it is to 2. So on average, it kills a megaknob every two turns. And the Mega knobs can generate enough wounds to best the Riptide in combat for two rounds, for sure, even after suffering 1.245 unsaved wounds per turn. Morale checks do matter as a fallback with the riptide is at it'scan go off it's own table edge is game over. So Megaknobs can win this and for comparable points.

In addition you mention the 'plethora of other Tau units". That's interesting because when we add in other Tau units, we are then talking about armies and codexes as being issues rather than just one unit, as you suggest with the Overwatch. Whole different issue.

I will give you the SMS not hitting rear armor, I apparently play against a lot of Tau players who cheat. Regardless, you are still comparing MORE points of orks versus 1 single Riptide. More often then not though, Meganobz are using Trukkz to transport themselves across the table because BWs are just not worth the investment. 110pts for a AV14/12/10vehicle that has ZERO weapons or special rules beyond the ability to transport 22 models.

I won't get involved in to much more theory hammer but I will leave you with this. If the Ork player doesn't bring Meganobz in a Battlewagon we have zero answers for a Riptide not even talking about a riptide wing. Everything else we own is either to slow or to weak to do much to this thing, the best we could theoretically do is swamp it in bodies but that really never works when Tau can delete most of our army before the end of turn 2. Riptides need a nerf, I am sorry you feel you would never again win a game without your cheese but that is the case.

Ok so you agree with me that the Riptide is not undercosted as I compared an Ork unit with 5 more points than the Riptide? So those 5 more points for the Orks makes all of the diference. Cool, glad you agree. You know, playing Orks is rough, even when I was spamming firewarriors and dropping in crisis suits, it was the same story then and it's the same story now ...but now we're mad at the riptide. If you ever wonder about how good it is, why not ask you Tau opponent to make a non Riptide list and see how it goes? Because against a bad codex like the Orks, substituting that 225 points into several other units won't necesasrily improve your odds of winning - maybe just the opposite - epescially when you realize that some the smaller units are probably more effective and more cost efficient against your army than the overkill and cost of Str 8/9 AP2 pie plates.

Why would anyone say that the Riptide is not unecosted? that thing is tankier then some Super Heavies/GMC's, can out the firepower of several tanks downrange and can out manoeuvre everything else it faces on the battlefield, barring Scatbikes. Oh, and it outranges many heavy weapons units too.

How the hell is a 225 point model capable of doing all of this not undercosted? Please answer me this?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Bach wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
<snippity

See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.

A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.

Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".

Which is exactly what I was thinking. That said, dropping the 3++ Nova Charge option, increasing FNP to 65 points AND also reducing the armor to 3+ might have been too much durability nerfing. Opinions?

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Bach wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
<snippity

See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.

A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.

Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".

Which is exactly what I was thinking. That said, dropping the 3++ Nova Charge option, increasing FNP to 65 points AND also reducing the armor to 3+ might have been too much durability nerfing. Opinions?

Keep the 3++ if you are changing to 3+ armor. If you keep 2+ armor, limit it to a 4++ save. I think FNP for T6 models should be very expensive, and so 65 seems fair. There is also the matter of making the base IA AP 3 instead of AP 2.

Martel732 wrote:

jade_angel wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Bach wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
<snippity

See, this is just overkill. Way too much overthinking that. Even limiting the range of the Ion at 30 inches... most of my kills are well within that area.

A better and easier rule change, which would probably make assault armies more fun to play overall, is to allow some types of units (as a general rule) to assault out of deepstrike. Not needing some special formation but lets say all jump pack troops can make a disorderly charge out of it. Right there would a be a reason to take jump troops over bikes, and you can have a real opportunity destroy shooty units, before being shot at, or at the very least - tie them up for less points and shut them down.

Its a fricking Linebreaker unit, there is no way in hell that it needs weapons with a longer range than 30".

Which is exactly what I was thinking. That said, dropping the 3++ Nova Charge option, increasing FNP to 65 points AND also reducing the armor to 3+ might have been too much durability nerfing. Opinions?

Keep the 3++ if you are changing to 3+ armor. If you keep 2+ armor, limit it to a 4++ save. I think FNP for T6 models should be very expensive, and so 65 seems fair. There is also the matter of making the base IA AP 3 instead of AP 2.

Actually, I made it R30 and base AP4, and dropped the Overcharge mode entirely (but buffed to Heavy 5 when firing in non-Nova mode).

Lemme run a few numbers to see which makes more sense.

EDIT: on further consideration, keeping 2+ armor but only a 5+ invuln makes more sense, to maintain more distinction between the Riptide and Ghostkeel. The Ghostkeel's cover tricks make it resilient against long-range antitank fire but it's fairly vulnerable to close-in bombardment with light weapons. The Riptide should be the inverse - relatively weak to long-range AT but very resistant to anti-infantry shooting. Both are still pretty resilient, though. (The Ghostkeel is much easier to instagib, however).

I don't have a problem with the IA killing meqs, I DO mind it zorfing MANZ, terminators, SG, and oblits. I Tau want AP 2, they should have to overcharge or take plasma/fusion/rail guns.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't have a problem with the IA killing meqs, I DO mind it zorfing MANZ, terminators, SG, and oblits. I Tau want AP 2, they should have to overcharge or take plasma/fusion/rail guns.

I suppose AP3 for the 5-shot mode isn't totally unreasonable, actually - it'd be a half-range version of the Hammerhead ion cannon with a stronger but less accessible blast mode. I was thinking AP4 for consistency with other ion weapons, but then, there's already one AP3 one.

I don't mind the Riptide being super tough and very killy. But it's TOO tough against too many things and TOO killy against too many things.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't mind the Riptide being super tough and very killy. But it's TOO tough against too many things and TOO killy against too many things.

I fully agree. My thought is "killy enough that you can't ignore it, tough enough to demand much of an army's firepower to kill it quickly, thus protecting other units".

72" S8 AP2 large pie plates is insane. I don't know why Tau players don't understand this. Even if it were S7, it would be a lot better because T4 could take FNP and not be doubled out. A single pie plate is doing the damage of 15 or so BS 4 plasma guns in some cases. Who thinks 15 plasma guns on one MC is fair?

The counter of course are invisible ICs that are T5 with stacked saves tanking the damage. Tau players fail to understand that no one else can kill such abominations, either, and all they have really accomplished is raising the survival bar so high that half the codices in the game might as well not show up.

is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

 carldooley wrote:
is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

Depends on the probability of that event occurring.

Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)

 carldooley wrote:
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)

Three questions:

1) how likely is that the marines are situated all within the 5" area?

2) how easier is to remove or silence the Russ, compared to remove or neutralize a riptide?

3) 72", str 8, AP2, ignore cover are weapon features belong to FOUR DIFFERENT RUSSES - did you take it in consideration?

 carldooley wrote:
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)

You are assuming that the Russ is alive long enough to fire on the Marines, the Marines are clustered tightly together, the Russ does not scatter and the Marines are in the open and not in a dedicated transprt.
On the other hand the Riptide can quite easily be BS 5/6 with Ignores Cover, better AP and more shots, each of which is a blast. The Riptide is also far faster and far tougher.

Not by itself. A riptide is BS3 natively. If its controlling player wants the pie plate, it requires multiple rolls: gets hot, scatter and so on. A leman russ only requires one. Something that people seem to overlook: the firing platform (riptide) may not be in range of your guns, but the support that can give it increased BS, ignore cover and so on sure as hell will be.

Martel732 wrote:


The counter of course are invisible ICs that are T5 with stacked saves tanking the damage. Tau players fail to understand that no one else can kill such abominations, either, and all they have really accomplished is raising the survival bar so high that half the codices in the game might as well not show up.

The danger to me here is chicken or egg, as long as invisi-stars exist, and you only have 1 turn if you go first to try and kill it, I want my chance to do so. And they want to invisi-star because i might 1 shot them if they don't get it. But super-friends invisi-stars won't go away unless Riptide goes away which won't go until invisi-star goes away, etc, ad naseum

The suggestion you and Jade_angel have making its primary weapon shorter is fine, keep it in line with its 2ndary weapons, and changing to ap3 is also ok, and it at least is a little different than all the s7ap4 we already have (missile-sides, missle pod crisis suits, missile drones, ion rifles, cyclic ion blasters, ion cannon, quad ion cannon)

And politely request that making FNP 50 points would be more reasonable than 65, if you bother to leave it as an option. I'd rather it not be an option. But charging 1/3rd the cost of a new unit, or a really well equipped crisis suit, or another broadside seems a bit overzealous? After all the shield generator (4++) is 50 points on the ghost keel and the storm-surge


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
Leman Russ Main Battle Tank vs 10 man Tactical Space Marine unit. Battle Cannon Str8 AP3 72" Ordnance 1 vs T4 Sv3 guys.
A statistically better chance of happening as it doesn't have the chance to get hot (Than a Riptide)

You are assuming that the Russ is alive long enough to fire on the Marines, the Marines are clustered tightly together, the Russ does not scatter and the Marines are in the open and not in a dedicated transprt.
On the other hand the Riptide can quite easily be BS 5/6 with Ignores Cover, better AP and more shots, each of which is a blast. The Riptide is also far faster and far tougher.

assuming the riptide will always have 5+ markerlights on its unit, and can fire 2ce every turn with blasts is at least as much of an assumption that the Russ is alive and unshaken.

 carldooley wrote:
is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.

So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.

 carldooley wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.

So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.

A defiler and leman russ are trash. I'd hope you know this, and are just being difficult, but they are terrible units.

Second, the hypothetical scenario that leads to this is completely imaginary. For remove 170 points you'd have to have all 10 marines under a pie plate, not fail to wound one, and no cover saves. The odds of this happening, just the placement alone, is just...what? No.
A much more common scenario is 3-5 models a turn per riptide. 4 is probably the most common, with 3's being a bad scatter but still getting the unit and anything over 5 because your opponent bunched up for a variety of reasons. But 10?
Even at 4 models per turn, that's ~60 points per turn with the occasional extra points thrown in when the PGs or something die. Average of 17 ppm figure roughly 68 or 70 points per turn. The riptide earns its points back over 3-4 turns roughly, 4 being the most common number.


The biggest reason why the tides are superior is that they are incredibly easy to remove turn 1. Lots of units can pod in, move quickly, or just bring down their HP relatively quickly and pop them. It's much easier to stop them firing for 2-3 turns then it is for the riptide to be stopped over the course of the game.

The next biggest reason is mobility. A leman russ that is outdeployed is worthless for half the game, maybe longer. It's slow and can't re-position well. For a unit that needs to be firing over the first 2-3 turns to stop assaults from happening.

Last, the formation. Before the formation, the Tides were good but not broken. They were extremely hard to remove, but could be ignored if you wanted to reach CC quickly and deal with the rest of the army. Now that isn't the case, the wing formation allows them to fire twice, often on turn 1-2 before CC is joined. This makes the 3 tides go from 24 dead models by turn 2 to 36 dead models by turn 2. It's a big difference, 50% increase, not to mention their Nova reactors being more reliable increasing their toughness.
To contrast, 4 Leman russes, assuming they can fire every turn which is often not the case, will kill 4 less models by turn 2 IF they all get to fire and none of them get targetted. This is extremely rare, as any IG player will tell you. If a leman russ could fire for 5-6 turns at a target it wanted to fire at every game, it would be beyond broken.

Not a lot of armies can have 36 wounds put on their units by turn 2 from 700 points of the army and still make it across the table. Some can, if they have invuls and are incredibly fast (or can 1 turn the riptides). But if your army lacks that kind of thing, the riptide wing just destroys your army before you get off the ground in most cases.
The one thing it's weak against, MSU body spam, Tau fire warriors and other suits do extremely against. The Tau are well designed this way compared to other armies that have glaring weaknesses and can't cover it up.

A much more common scenario is 3-5 models a turn per riptide. 4 is probably the most common, with 3's being a bad scatter but still getting the unit and anything over 5 because your opponent bunched up for a variety of reasons

You guys are aware that, when properly spaced, pie plates cover 3 models at most? Getting 4 is a mistake by your opponent, getting 5 means he really doesn't care.

Tau players fail to understand that no one else can kill such abominations, either, and all they have really accomplished is raising the survival bar so high that half the codices in the game might as well not show up.

You seem to fail to understand that by now around half the codices are able to play on the same level as riptide wings, and that the other half will struggle against any of them in a competitive match. It's not Tau's and not the Riptide's fault.

Ushtarador wrote:

A much more common scenario is 3-5 models a turn per riptide. 4 is probably the most common, with 3's being a bad scatter but still getting the unit and anything over 5 because your opponent bunched up for a variety of reasons

You guys are aware that, when properly spaced, pie plates cover 3 models at most? Getting 4 is a mistake by your opponent, getting 5 means he really doesn't care.

Properly spaced 4 is still quite doable. Try it out yourself, you don't need to cover the entire model. When I use Riptides, 4 is very much the mode.
3 is if the enemy is properly spaced in such a way that minimizes the blast weapon and manages it nearly perfectly every turn, and you don't scatter at all. It's possible, but somewhat rare. Keep in mind, a 5" blast template is centered around a little less then an inch base and must just clip the other models to count as hit. It's not unrealistic to get 4 models. It has 2" of room on each side, a little more, which is the spacing amount.

I already admitted 5 or above is a mistake. It does happen against horde armies or if your opponent is dealing with terrain. Sometimes if they are eager for melee.

The good news with the riptide is your opponent wants to space out to ensure you get 3-4 models per turn, and not 5+. This often means that they don't bunch up, so any kills you do get push the melee unit back. I've faced null jetbike armies that don't reach combat till turn 4, I kill so much from the front between the formation and the suits. As someone who plays combat armies, it's very annoying.

Keep in mind, my original response was towards someone who claimed the same template would get all 10 models at once...

 Bach wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

I will give you the SMS not hitting rear armor, I apparently play against a lot of Tau players who cheat. Regardless, you are still comparing MORE points of orks versus 1 single Riptide. More often then not though, Meganobz are using Trukkz to transport themselves across the table because BWs are just not worth the investment. 110pts for a AV14/12/10vehicle that has ZERO weapons or special rules beyond the ability to transport 22 models.

I won't get involved in to much more theory hammer but I will leave you with this. If the Ork player doesn't bring Meganobz in a Battlewagon we have zero answers for a Riptide not even talking about a riptide wing. Everything else we own is either to slow or to weak to do much to this thing, the best we could theoretically do is swamp it in bodies but that really never works when Tau can delete most of our army before the end of turn 2. Riptides need a nerf, I am sorry you feel you would never again win a game without your cheese but that is the case.

Ok so you agree with me that the Riptide is not undercosted as I compared an Ork unit with 5 more points than the Riptide? So those 5 more points for the Orks makes all of the diference. Cool, glad you agree. You know, playing Orks is rough, even when I was spamming firewarriors and dropping in crisis suits, it was the same story then and it's the same story now ...but now we're mad at the riptide. If you ever wonder about how good it is, why not ask you Tau opponent to make a non Riptide list and see how it goes? Because against a bad codex like the Orks, substituting that 225 points into several other units won't necesasrily improve your odds of winning - maybe just the opposite - epescially when you realize that some the smaller units are probably more effective and more cost efficient against your army than the overkill and cost of Str 8/9 AP2 pie plates.

No, in fact nowhere do I even remotely come close to saying that the Riptide is NOT undercosted I have in fact said the opposite, IT IS UNDERCOSTED AND OVERPOWERED.

Its funny you think that because I have a unit that can TIE UP a Riptide for 1-2 turns by turn 3 that Its ok. Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the tau codex is stupid but we are not talking about the rest of the Tau codex atm we are talking about the Riptide.

Name a Single unit in the game that can do more for 225pts then the riptide can? Is there a single unit in the game which brings as much to the table as a Riptide for such a cheap cost? Nothing is as fast, as shooty and as durable as a Riptide and yet you keep blathering about how its not under priced.

At the moment the only reliable way to remove riptides is to use Grav cannons on them, which is great and all but unfortunately only 1 faction (SM) has access to those weapons and the rest of us are stuck trying to remove the stupid things with CC units or blasting away all game at it with Las/plasma/autocannon or the equivalent for the force.

I am sorry dude but your toy is in drastic need of a nerf.


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Fun fact, if the Ork player fails his charge for whatever reason, the Riptide can jump away that turn and still fire off a huge S8 AP2 pie plate which can double out the Meganobz who won't get a save But hey, Bach says its not OP or under priced.

 carldooley wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.

So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.

You are willingly ignoring people that points out WHY there is a huge difference between the defiler/russ and the riptide.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 carldooley wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
is it fair that a 150 point model can remove 170 point units a turn from 6 feet away?

Totally. I remember having a **** fit back when Defilers were introduced, and suddenly Chaos had an indirect firing Battle Cannon hitting my squads. Basilisk could do the same and was cheaper, too. This is back in 3rd Ed. The thing is you eventually learn to accept and then counter it.

So is the defiler/leman russ undercosted because it can do so or is the riptide fairly costed because we choose to do so? You cannot have it both ways.

You are willingly ignoring people that points out WHY there is a huge difference between the defiler/russ and the riptide.

Not at all. I am well aware of the difference, as I use both the riptide and the leman russ (and when I played CSM I had 3 defilers).
The point that I was trying to make was that losing stuff to pie plates is nothing new, and before anyone says it: I know why people have a.problem with the. EWO and the IA (which is what people actually seem to have a problem with): you get to place the plate before the squad spreads out.

Before I played Tau I was curious as to what all the hubbub was about? In my mind, the unit that was entering from reserves was the delivery vehicle, the drop pod, but not the unit contained within. In my mind, that makes the drop pod the only legal target, and the only way to target the squad would have been scatter or if they had been too close to the model when deployed. Targeting the unit deploying from it made as much sense as targeting a unit deploying from a rhino, because who puts their models inside their vehicles?

**edit** Actually, it reminds me of something that I found funny at the time: reading through the tactical squad's entry in the SM codex, (the last one, I think) I came across the transport entry for them. it said something along the lines of the squad could take a rhino or a razorback and if they numbered 10 models they could take a Drop Pod. What it didn't say was 'instead'. Meaning in my mind, that they could take both in a list.

No, what people seem to have a problem with is that the combination forces people to change their tactics, much like what happened in the beginning when people started using knights or psykers started using invisibility. My initial response, which hasn't changed much, was that if you brought a drop list and you saw EWOs spread among your opponent's army, then you had 3 choices (after my initial impressions (above) were corrected): deploy aggressively towards your target (and risk the pie plate of doom), take cover behind the drop pod (prior to the GW FAQ), or drop it empty and deploy on the table. But no? just nerf the thing.

How about this (which I suggest, while knowing that people will never go for the targeted change): Change the cost of the IA to 15, and the EWO to 20. The IA isn't the problem, the fact that it removes the chance to react to its firing is. Make the EWO as expensive as the Velocity Tracker. That way, us Tau players are paying 35 points for the combo, the same as the Drop Pod that we are invalidating.

Has anyone actually played a Tau army against a massively deepstriking army, like the new Blood Angels Terminators or Droppods or Grey Knights Paladins with FnP, without a Riptide? If yes: How often? Who won the game?

Please don't get me wrong: I understand, that spamming Riptides and of course the formation itself can be a huge problem. But you are all talking about the Riptide as a single model. Maybe - just maybe - GW wanted the Riptide as this huge aggression and psychological effect? (I know - GW is not able to think )

As a Blood Angel, CSM and Sisters-player, I know that it is no easy enemy, but untill now, i managed one or two - not easily, but I've managed. And as a Tau player, I have at least two turns each game, where I do not have the 3++ because of bad rolls.

Because of my experience in a casual gaming area - next year, I will play 40K for 20 years - I have that feeling that many of you guys are overreacting as soon as it comes to the Riptide as a single model.