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So we filmed our first Genestealer Cult review and battle report, and something really wonky came up with Cult Ambush and Deployment.

Josh and I had a long discussion on whether or not you were supposed to "deploy" via Cult Ambush (if you choose to of course), or whether they just arrive on the Genestealer Cult first turn.

I had just assumed that once it was time to do Infiltrations, I take a unit that I want to Infiltrate, declare that it's using the Cult Ambush rules, roll on the Cult Ambush chart, and then "deploy" them on the board.

Josh thought that it might mean that instead, you just hold off on those until your first turn, and then roll on the table. I like this second option as it makes the Cult more powerful, but I didn't think it was right, so we did it the other way.

The other weird part is that it says you can't move in the Movement phase on the "turn" that you deploy or arrive from reserves. Well, you don't "deploy" on any turn. It's before the game starts. Does it mean the first turn? Or does it use the word "deploy" to mean the options 3+ on the table where you "set up" your models?

So how do you think it should be played?

The Cult Ambush abilities are just a form of Infiltration. You choose to deploy which ever units that are going to Infiltrate and then choose to roll on the table if you want to use the ambush rules.

I had totally missed the part about not being able to move in the movement phase which changes a few ideas I had originally come up with.

I agree with the first part (although I also agree that it could be wrong), but I don't agree that you can't move first turn.

It says the "turn" you deploy. When you deploy it is not yet a turn. I wonder if when they say "deploy" they mean the 3+ results on the Cult Ambush table that say you "set up" your models.

It's poor wording all around unfortunately.

Speaking of poor wording:

There is no restriction that the Primus in a Subterranean Uprising must actually join any of the units from the Uprising itself. Could the Primus join a unit that's not from this formation, so long as that unit also deployed by Cult Ambush? For example, could he join a unit of Neophytes from the First Circle or Doting Throng? If yes, would he count as being a unit from the Subterranean Uprising, and thus allow the Neophytes to roll 2d6-pick one?

 MagicJuggler wrote:
Speaking of poor wording:

There is no restriction that the Primus in a Subterranean Uprising must actually join any of the units from the Uprising itself. Could the Primus join a unit that's not from this formation, so long as that unit also deployed by Cult Ambush? For example, could he join a unit of Neophytes from the First Circle or Doting Throng? If yes, would he count as being a unit from the Subterranean Uprising, and thus allow the Neophytes to roll 2d6-pick one?

Formation special rules do not confer to units outside of the formation. IC do not confer their rules to units they are attached to and vice versa. Otherwise they are considered to be a part of the joined unit for all rules purposes. Not only would the other unit not get to roll 3 dice, the primus would not either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 miniwargaming wrote:
So we filmed our first Genestealer Cult review and battle report, and something really wonky came up with Cult Ambush and Deployment.

Josh and I had a long discussion on whether or not you were supposed to "deploy" via Cult Ambush (if you choose to of course), or whether they just arrive on the Genestealer Cult first turn.

I had just assumed that once it was time to do Infiltrations, I take a unit that I want to Infiltrate, declare that it's using the Cult Ambush rules, roll on the Cult Ambush chart, and then "deploy" them on the board.

Josh thought that it might mean that instead, you just hold off on those until your first turn, and then roll on the table. I like this second option as it makes the Cult more powerful, but I didn't think it was right, so we did it the other way.

The other weird part is that it says you can't move in the Movement phase on the "turn" that you deploy or arrive from reserves. Well, you don't "deploy" on any turn. It's before the game starts. Does it mean the first turn? Or does it use the word "deploy" to mean the options 3+ on the table where you "set up" your models?

So how do you think it should be played?

You do not deploy via Ambush. You deploy via infiltrate which allows you to roll on the table. After that you are correct, deployment is not turn so you can still move on the following (first) turn. It's more powerful to hit the table during deployment. A roll of 5 will let you shoot during deployment before the game even begins.

You also deploy when you come on from reserves, by which point there is a turn

So this counts as deploying via infiltrate, meaning that servo skulls make GSC a sad day?

 luke1705 wrote:
So this counts as deploying via infiltrate, meaning that servo skulls make GSC a sad day?

No its a different rule, it just triggers off of infiltrate

 CrownAxe wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
So this counts as deploying via infiltrate, meaning that servo skulls make GSC a sad day?

No its a different rule, it just triggers off of infiltrate

I disagree. You infiltrate in order to roll on ambush. Ambush modifies how the infiltrate works but yiu very clearly have to infiltrate first.

Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.

 miniwargaming wrote:
Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.

At the very least it is ambiguous. I'm still not 100% sure

iirc in the FAQ there was a similar question about letting the Genestealers and the Patriarch infiltaring when Deathwatch Overkill formation was the only way to play GSC

they said No Servo-Skulls do not effect them

As I pointed out in another thread, I think the first part of the rule is what qualifies you to use Cult Ambush; you have to Infiltrate or be arriving from Reserves. However, if you meet the requirements, the rule explicitly states that *instead* of using the normal rules for deploying or arriving from reserves, you roll on the Cult Ambush table which has its own rules. At that point, I you don't use the normal rules for Infiltrate or arriving from Reserves. I would then argue that, with the Ghosar Quintis Broodkin FAQ being very relevant to this discussion as it too is a modification or replacement of the normal Infiltration rules, you would then not be affected by rules that interact with the normal rules for Infiltrating...like Servo Skulls.

From what I've seen it says:

"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."

Okay, from this special rule, it sounds like the unit must have already successfully been selected to Infiltrate or to successfully arrive from Reserves. At that point, you get to roll for Cult Ambush and continue from there. The next part says,

"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

So, from the sound of this, you are either deploying the unit (such as during deployment), or are arrive from Reserves. This means that the unit which is Infiltrating is now deploying via Cult Ambush.

So, due to some poor wording, it may sound like you are arriving with these units instead of deploying, but the wording itself (and ever other location that it seems to come up) specifies deploying OR arriving via the Cult Ambush, and one could only deploy via Cult Ambush if you were, in fact, deploying.

You set up before the game as per infiltrate. That part is normal and understood. When the rules refer to not moving in the movement phase that turn, they are referring to redeploying from ongoing reserves. That happened at the start of the movement phase, or rather before it, and so would put your super infiltrating units even closer to enemies than wanted.

 miniwargaming wrote:
Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.

The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".

40k has permission based rules. A model can only do what it has permission to do under the circumstances that allow it to do those things.

i.e. a model that is infantry has permission to move 6" during the movement phase.

The cult ambush rule has very clear requirements for when you can use it and what it does.

1 - The Requirments) The unit must either be a) infiltrating or b) arriving from reserves or ongoing reserves

2 - The Permissions) If A or B then the unit has permission to roll on the Cult Ambush Chart. It doesn't have to mind you, it just has the option to.

3 - The restrictions/permissions that are redacted) It must follow the result on the chart instead of whatever it would have been doing before rolling on the chart (i.e. you could not choose instead to infiltrate normally if you happened to roll a 1 or 2). It cannot move during the movement phase in which it arrives.

At no point in the rule does it say it replaces the infiltration that it HAS to be doing to use the chart to begin with. It does not say you can a) deploy normally, b) infiltrate, or c) cult ambush. It, in fact, says you HAVE to be doing b for any other part of the rule to take effect. Cult ambush is a roll added during infiltrate that modifies your permissions. It's still infiltrate.

You forgot one restriction, one that Yarium pointed out:

"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

If infiltrating, that's not an issue, but if the unit is coming on from reserves, you still have the restriction of having to make a Reserves roll to see what turn you come on. When you are arriving from Reserve, then you roll on the CA table to see how you're coming on. It's a point some people are ignoring in the other thread on this were ignoring, thinking that anything in reserves was also coming in on turn 1 when it isnt.

 doctortom wrote:
You forgot one restriction, one that Yarium pointed out:

"Unless otherwise specified, ambushing units move onto the table as described for other Reserves and cannot move any further during the Movement phase of the turn they deploy or arrive on the battlefield."

If infiltrating, that's not an issue, but if the unit is coming on from reserves, you still have the restriction of having to make a Reserves roll to see what turn you come on. When you are arriving from Reserve, then you roll on the CA table to see how you're coming on. It's a point some people are ignoring in the other thread on this were ignoring, thinking that anything in reserves was also coming in on turn 1 when it isnt.

I agree. We were specifically talking about infiltration so I was focusing in on that. But entering from reserves requires a roll like normal. You do not get permission to roll on the ambush table until you arrive from reserves. Ambush does not replace it, it only modifies it.

 Lance845 wrote:
I agree. We were specifically talking about infiltration so I was focusing in on that. But entering from reserves requires a roll like normal. You do not get permission to roll on the ambush table until you arrive from reserves. Ambush does not replace it, it only modifies it.

Unless its Ongoing Reserves, of course.

I did ask this question on Facebook after watching the BatRep (good video, BTW, Matt. Hopefully the Dice Gods will show you more favor next time, though). Hopefully I'll get a response or it'll be addressed in a GSC FAQ.

 Lance845 wrote:

 miniwargaming wrote:
Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.

The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".

"....instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally." It actually does in the first sentence. Infiltration is a form of deployment, see the rulebook pg 167.

So yes, Cult Ambush is performed as a replacement to infiltration per deployment.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 miniwargaming wrote:
Sorry Lance845, but that's not how it works. It says that instead of Infiltrating or arriving from reserves normally they roll on the table. It replaces it, not modifies it.

The rule never has any line that says "instead of infiltrating".

"....instead of deploying or arriving from reserves normally." It actually does in the first sentence. Infiltration is a form of deployment, see the rulebook pg 167.

So yes, Cult Ambush is performed as a replacement to infiltration per deployment.

Quoting about 1/3rd of the first sentence to say that it say "instead of infiltrating" when the words "infiltrate" and "infiltrating" are nowhere in the quote you are providing is just plain crap evidence to support your argument.

Lets quote the entire sentence.

"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve, can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite, instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally."

Lets take that all in together as the single statement that it is instead of picking out only the parts you want.

Units with this special rule that Infiltrate, or that arrive from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve,

The unit needs the special rule Cult Ambush and if deploying it must Infiltrate to use cult ambush. Otherwise it must be entering the table from Reserve or Ongoing Reserve. Important here. If the unit is in Reserve it must roll to enter the table from reserve. Once successful THEN it can roll on the table to see HOW it arrives. Cult Ambush does not replace the Reserves roll. Likewise, the unit MUST infiltrate to roll on the table. It cannot roll on the table UNTIL it Infiltrates.

can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table, opposite,

They don't have to do it, they have a choice. The table is on the opposite page.

instead of deploying or arriving from Reserves normally.

Whatever result you roll replaces the normal methods for placing your models from whichever method of entering you were using. If you Infiltrated, the roll changes the 12" etc rule to whatever result you rolled. I.E. you can not choose to continue to infiltrate normally. Once you roll on the table you must accept the result, you have no ability to go back to normal deployment methods.

A synonymous wording for the rule would be...

"A unit with this special rule may choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table if they deploy via Infiltrate or arrive from Reserves or Ongoing Reserves. Units that choose to roll on the table must arrive according to the result."


Don't quote the last 1/3rd of a sentence and expect it to carry any weight without the other 2/3rds to define what it's actually talking about.

Infiltrate is the method of deployment. So instead of deploying...normally" is "instead of infiltrate(ing) ... normally"

It's like the transitive property.

If deployment can be infiltration, and infiltration can be cult ambush, then deployment can be cult ambush.

@Lance845- Actually I was quoting the relevant sentence. Your wildly over complicating things here.


Infiltration IS a form of normal deployment as presented in the BRB, the rule for CA states INSTEAD of deployment as normal.

This tells us two crucial things.

1. CA isn't infiltration

2. CA is done as deployment

 Red Corsair wrote:
@Lance845- Actually I was quoting the relevant sentence. Your wildly over complicating things here.


Infiltration IS a form of normal deployment as presented in the BRB, the rule for CA states INSTEAD of deployment as normal.

This tells us two crucial things.

1. CA isn't infiltration

2. CA is done as deployment

2.CA is done as deployment or as coming on from reserves or ongoing reserves, if the player wishes to do so. (CA isn't always deployment)

The sentence with only the relevant information for deployment goes like this...

"Units with this special rule that Infiltrate can choose to roll on the Cult Ambush table instead of deploying normally."

Nowhere in the cult ambush rules does it say a unit "deploying via ambush" cannot charge in the first turn. And yet, in the last sentence of #6 on the CA table...

"Unlike other units that infiltrate..."

This would be because Ambush is not separate from Infiltrate. The restriction of not being able to charge is a part of CA because CA is part of Infiltrate. If it was it's own thing it would need to clarify that units deploying via CA cannot charge on their first turn. It doesn't. Because you infiltrate FIRST, and then roll on the table. The restrictions applied to Infiltrate also apply to CA unless the roll contradicts and supersedes it.

Again your adding language where it doesn't exist. Your entire argument revolves around assumptions you have made.

The rule never states you infiltrate first, it says instead of. IE in place of. Infiltration is a prerequisite for cult ambush. CA replaces infiltration from then on if you choose to use that deployment.

You can claim CA and infiltration are one and the same all you want, but you haven't demonstrated within the rules that they are. In fact the rules are demonstrating the opposite.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Again your adding language where it doesn't exist. Your entire argument revolves around assumptions you have made.

The rule never states you infiltrate first, it says instead of. IE in place of. Infiltration is a prerequisite for cult ambush. CA replaces infiltration from then on if you choose to use that deployment.

You can claim CA and infiltration are one and the same all you want, but you haven't demonstrated within the rules that they are. In fact the rules are demonstrating the opposite.

What are you talking about?

The rule says units that infiltrate. Not units that have the Infiltrate special rule. That is language that says you must infiltrate first.

Show me where in the CA rule it says that you cannot charge in the assault phase following deployment or entering the table from reserves. Show me. Because that is adding language that does not exist, UNLESS, like I have been saying, CA is in addition to the other methods of entering the board. In which case, THOSE methods have that restriction.

Because it is still reserves. Moving on from reserves (deploying) doesnt alter that you turned up from reserves. So you would still be restricted from charging at that point.