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Hey People,

So after Traitors Hate came out and I saw the Helldrake Terror Pack (HTP), I felt like this might be my answer to a question I've had for awhile. Can the HTP give me enough -Leadership to my opponent to make Slaanesh Psychic powers actually worthwhile?

I am thinking 3 Helldrakes with Baleflamers running alongside with Noise Marines, Heralds and a KoS. I am using the FW KoS model for Distraction Boob **cough** i mean carnifex.

I just feel like there is potential with the HTP and the newer slaanesh psychic powers.

There is some good synergy between pinning, -LD and mark of slaanesh warp talons/mutilators/terminators and so on.

(because you have good chance of forcing go to ground so these units can charge through difficult terrain at full initiative).

Well, one issue I see, is that although the synergies are great. They all excel at doing the same thing ... killing infantry, and not armor.

If you already have three helldrakes, you really don't need so much more help killing infantry. All your noise marines and KOS will just make you even better at killing infantry. But you will then run into huge problems with armor, imperial knights, etc etc. So, you have to make sure you round it out with stuff that can kill armor.

Another issue is objective taking. helldrakes can't take objectives. And noise marines aren't fast unless you are riding them in Rhinos. You will need to consider if you have enough stuff to hold and take objectives.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Well, one issue I see, is that although the synergies are great. They all excel at doing the same thing ... killing infantry, and not armor.

If you already have three helldrakes, you really don't need so much more help killing infantry. All your noise marines and KOS will just make you even better at killing infantry. But you will then run into huge problems with armor, imperial knights, etc etc. So, you have to make sure you round it out with stuff that can kill armor.

Another issue is objective taking. helldrakes can't take objectives. And noise marines aren't fast unless you are riding them in Rhinos. You will need to consider if you have enough stuff to hold and take objectives.

If you wan't to adress the lack on anti-vehicle take the raptortalon formation in traitors hate, equip your marines with both meltaguns and melta bombs and you not only have a way to kill vehicles but they can also be used to target infantry to, again in the theme of these lists, lower the enemy leadership by 2. Seems like some crazy synergy to me.

In no way it's reliable for vehicle hunting. 6 meltaguns without reliable arrival, scatter and mishaps...rhino marines are more reliable as antitank than deepstriking raptors.

Rhino's are easily opened a assault claw will be better since you already have access to forge world.

 koooaei wrote:
In no way it's reliable for vehicle hunting. 6 meltaguns without reliable arrival, scatter and mishaps...rhino marines are more reliable as antitank than deepstriking raptors.

Comm relays are a thing and not a bad one if you want to hide a min-squad of noise marines with blastmasters. 90% chance of them landing is decently reliable.

Melta drop without scatter mitigation is gona fail you >50% of games. And another half of more or less successful drops will end up with them missing with their shots and attacks.

If you still think it's gona serve you well, remember that Blood Angels have 2 melta assault marines in precise droppods that DON'T mishap and more often than not position you where needed. Can arrive 1-st turn. And they don't do too well as vehicle hunters. Now count in your full scatter ds that's gona be most likely out of melta range due to you not willing to risk a complete mishap too much.

It can work from time to time but it's too unreliable to be a prime source of antitank.

I'm not trying to discourage you or something, i've just played my past 3 games with a termie annihilation force. 1 game they did 0 damage due to reserve rolls and mishaps. Ended up as a 450 pt handicap. 2-d game they didn't do much either. 3-d game they murdered some eldar cause i was lucky with deepstrikes. Take into account that they have 12" double tap range. And still they're very unreliable on regular maps with impass and units everywhere.

I was also running a mutilator list with 6 solo mutilators and 2-3 solo obliterators. And scatter + mishap + reserve rolls was a huge factor once again. Even trough they scattered only d6 within 6" of a banner it still was enough to get awful results from time to time. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I'd say the success rate of close-ranged deepstrikes is around 40-50% from the first try. Around 30-40% if you don't take comms relay. See, it's easy to DS when you have something like a centstar, fewer units and a more open map and 24" range. Things change dramatically when you need to get within 6" and you have a lot of other stuff rolling around.

 koooaei wrote:
Melta drop without scatter mitigation is gona fail you >50% of games. And another half of more or less successful drops will end up with them missing with their shots and attacks.

If you still think it's gona serve you well, remember that Blood Angels have 2 melta assault marines in precise droppods that DON'T mishap and more often than not position you where needed. Can arrive 1-st turn. And they don't do too well as vehicle hunters. Now count in your full scatter ds that's gona be most likely out of melta range due to you not willing to risk a complete mishap too much.

It can work from time to time but it's too unreliable to be a prime source of antitank.

I'm not trying to discourage you or something, i've just played my past 3 games with a termie annihilation force. 1 game they did 0 damage due to reserve rolls and mishaps. Ended up as a 450 pt handicap. 2-d game they didn't do much either. 3-d game they murdered some eldar cause i was lucky with deepstrikes. Take into account that they have 12" double tap range. And still they're very unreliable on regular maps with impass and units everywhere.

I was also running a mutilator list with 6 solo mutilators and 2-3 solo obliterators. And scatter + mishap + reserve rolls was a huge factor once again. Even trough they scattered only d6 within 6" of a banner it still was enough to get awful results from time to time. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. I'd say the success rate of close-ranged deepstrikes is around 40-50% from the first try. Around 30-40% if you don't take comms relay. See, it's easy to DS when you have something like a centstar, fewer units and a more open map and 24" range. Things change dramatically when you need to get within 6" and you have a lot of other stuff rolling around.

It really isn't difficult to not bugger up a deepstrike, unless your playing with a lot of impassible terrain. How are you mishaping so often? Surely you don't roll towards enemy troops that often with your deepstrikes

I do have to say that i have terrible luck with deepstriking. I was planning on putting noise marines in rhinos, but as elden said, i think he is right in the fact that im gonna do great against infantry but not much else.

The KoS will be decent enough to take out something big if it gets there, but its still a gamble. There is no way to include sorcerors in a raptor talon formation is there? I was thinking about adding a cabal with jet packs to a raptor talon formation, but i didnt think they would be able to deep strike and assault same turn if the sorc's were attached to the unit. I am new to CSM so some of the stuff is unknown to me.

WikkedTiki wrote:
I do have to say that i have terrible luck with deepstriking. I was planning on putting noise marines in rhinos, but as elden said, i think he is right in the fact that im gonna do great against infantry but not much else.

The KoS will be decent enough to take out something big if it gets there, but its still a gamble. There is no way to include sorcerors in a raptor talon formation is there? I was thinking about adding a cabal with jet packs to a raptor talon formation, but i didnt think they would be able to deep strike and assault same turn if the sorc's were attached to the unit. I am new to CSM so some of the stuff is unknown to me.

Yeah the new FAQ stated that independant characters that join units don't get their special rule, so you unfortunatly cant charge the same turn with them. Might I reccomend a Slanneshi Daemon Prince instead of a KoS, with wings you have increased survivability and can catch up to vehicles with relative ease, whereas unfortunatly with the KoS, you can only more 6 inches like infantry, so tanks and other vehicles will outrun you for a good 1 to 2 turns before your run move gets you close enough. I love using my KoS but trying to catch up with vehicles is a pain trust me.

So, basic probibility will tell you exactly how reliable DS is. I prefer that over anecdotal luck stories. That said, with banners and multiple redundant cheap options (raptors, termies, oblits), you have some good options for AV hunting with just DS. For 300 pts if you wanna DS something drop 3 helbrutes. Armor is an option; I'd say give one or more Heldrakes the Cannon, and consider a forgefiend BL formation or an Allied Soul Grinder, LOW Knight, or just some cheap as chips laspreds. They work man. Don't be scared of simple fix it options, it's 135 or so pts.

Another option is Daemon Princes. Flying, psychic levels, access to CSM and Daemon weapon list depending on how you decide to bring em. Iron Arm + Lash of Despair, Warp Speed + Daemon Weapon, Slaanesh can put out some table flipping levels of hurt with these guys and they are just as durable as any other alignment, not something the purple folk get much. Bonus point, they can run crazy fast, so feel free to lose the wings and run through cover if you are in a point crunch. Most games I can manage to find something within fleet running range +3'' if it comes to it.

Lastly, no rock and roll rape parade is complete without bikers. A min squad with meltas can turbo boost and reliably position and a large pack with the FnP banner and a chaos lord is not technically a deathstar, but does require a significant investment of points and turns to bring down.

Well, if your not too attached to the Daemons, I would say take some sorcerers instead Give them MOS and against vehicle heavy lists have them roll 2 times on Excess Powers. Symphony of Pain increases the strength of sonic weaponry by 1 and it stacks, you only need 2 casts for your blast masters to be strength 10. And yes you can cast it on vehicles it says "enemy units" not enemy non-vehicle units

On the other hand you could put the Sorcerers on SoS, stick them with bikers with meltas, and then come on and wreck gak, blind and pin units suffering from reduced LD with Sensory Overload, and either debuff the BS of units that sill threaten you or buff your sonic weapons so they can kill things threatening them with Symphony of Pain, and use Hysterical Frenzy to turn your T5 I5 Bikers into CC gods with either more attacks, more initiative, or more strength. Watch the panic in that Eldar player's eyes as let him know your bikers are I 6. Those would only be like 200 points per unit too, not cheap but not too expensive for a unit that could possibly come on blow up a land raider, pin/ blind a threatening unit and debuff a third unit by -1 WS/BS and make them take more damage from sonic weaponry.

Absolutely do not mark your Sorcerers.

Relying on getting a specific power to try and boost an already mediocre unit is a bad idea, plus it interferes with discipline focus. Rolling on Telepathy and getting Shriek is much better than trying to boost sonic weaponry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Absolutely do not mark your Sorcerers.

Relying on getting a specific power to try and boost an already mediocre unit is a bad idea, plus it interferes with discipline focus. Rolling on Telepathy and getting Shriek is much better than trying to boost sonic weaponry.

agreed, unless you are running a fluffy game.

If your rolling your sorcerer with bikes you might as well go for survivability rather than damage, let the melta on the bikes take out the vehicles , not psychic powers, although, that being said if your running a lot of vehicles with your slanneshi CSM just roll on heritech, a great discipline with some pretty crazy vehicle killing powers.

I disagree. If, and that's a big if, you want a particular power from the marked tables, they are easier to get than a normal psychic power. And psychic focus doesn't matter a whole lot if you ask me.

In order to get any one particular power you'll want at least 3 lvl 3 psykers, unmarked sorcerers in the case of rolling something like invisibility. That works pretty well and that's only a 3 in 6 chance per psyker.
Here, it's 2 in 3 chance, so a 66 vs a 50 % chance to get the power you want. You get the chaos discipline primaris because of chaos focous and you can always simply pick the primaris from another discipline.
So if you still want shriek...just get shriek or prescience, those are the only primaris you'd want to cast anyway, maybe summoning too, but the rest just kind of...exist and you rarely have the warp charges to waste on them.

Of course, whether or not the marked powers are something you want to invest in so heavily is up to the player. More often than not they aren't worth it.
The normal disciplines are generally better unless you have something very specific in mind, like base strength 10 csm, which is cool and all but not at all worth the points and efforts to pull that off reliably.

So to reiterate, marked powers are better for getting a specific power, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I agree that you're better off going unmarked outside of experimentation and fun.

Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

In reguards to anti vehicle, Why roll on for a spell that is +1 strength to obscure weapons when you can roll for a spell that literally strips several hull points off enemy models and has generally usefull spells on the rest of the disipline? The powers from the new disiplines are flat out better for utility and strength. (Heritech)

Saying it saves points isn't really an argument though. Sure it does, but it's not like the marks are bad, plus you unlock steeds which are good too.
The slaanesh powers aren't bad either. They're not invisibility levels of broken, but they're not bad.

It may not be worth it to you, but they're pretty fluffy and they do allow for some pretty silly combos.
40k isn't just about what gives you the best chance to win and diversity should absolutely be encouraged.
It's up the players to decide how many concessions they are willing to make.

A marked sorcerer is definitely making concessions, but it's hardly on the same level as possessed or warp talons.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

Why would I want a higher chance to get a bad power instead of rolling on a table with several good powers? Telepathy has tons of great powers, so you want to roll on there entirely.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

Why would I want a higher chance to get a bad power instead of rolling on a table with several good powers? Telepathy has tons of great powers, so you want to roll on there entirely.

Telepathy has 2 great powers and 1 subjectivly good one (shrouded), it also has the most useless powers in game aswell, I personally don't roll on it unless I need invisibility.

 Roknar wrote:
I disagree. If, and that's a big if, you want a particular power from the marked tables, they are easier to get than a normal psychic power. And psychic focus doesn't matter a whole lot if you ask me.

In order to get any one particular power you'll want at least 3 lvl 3 psykers, unmarked sorcerers in the case of rolling something like invisibility. That works pretty well and that's only a 3 in 6 chance per psyker.
Here, it's 2 in 3 chance, so a 66 vs a 50 % chance to get the power you want. You get the chaos discipline primaris because of chaos focus and you can always simply pick the primaris from another discipline.
So if you still want shriek...just get shriek or prescience, those are the only primaris you'd want to cast anyway, maybe summoning too, but the rest just kind of...exist and you rarely have the warp charges to waste on them.

Of course, whether or not the marked powers are something you want to invest in so heavily is up to the player. More often than not they aren't worth it.
The normal disciplines are generally better unless you have something very specific in mind, like base strength 10 csm, which is cool and all but not at all worth the points and efforts to pull that off reliably.

So to reiterate, marked powers are better for getting a specific power, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I agree that you're better off going unmarked outside of experimentation and fun.

Its actually a 1/6+1/5+1/4 chance which comes out to about 61 percent chance, with 3 psykers your only getting a 90% chance, diminished returns and all.

With the Chaos powers, its a 1/3+1/2 which comes out to be 83%

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I disagree. If, and that's a big if, you want a particular power from the marked tables, they are easier to get than a normal psychic power. And psychic focus doesn't matter a whole lot if you ask me.

In order to get any one particular power you'll want at least 3 lvl 3 psykers, unmarked sorcerers in the case of rolling something like invisibility. That works pretty well and that's only a 3 in 6 chance per psyker.
Here, it's 2 in 3 chance, so a 66 vs a 50 % chance to get the power you want. You get the chaos discipline primaris because of chaos focus and you can always simply pick the primaris from another discipline.
So if you still want shriek...just get shriek or prescience, those are the only primaris you'd want to cast anyway, maybe summoning too, but the rest just kind of...exist and you rarely have the warp charges to waste on them.

Of course, whether or not the marked powers are something you want to invest in so heavily is up to the player. More often than not they aren't worth it.
The normal disciplines are generally better unless you have something very specific in mind, like base strength 10 csm, which is cool and all but not at all worth the points and efforts to pull that off reliably.

So to reiterate, marked powers are better for getting a specific power, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I agree that you're better off going unmarked outside of experimentation and fun.

Its actually a 1/6+1/5+1/4 chance which comes out to about 61 percent chance, with 3 psykers your only getting a 90% chance, diminished returns and all.

With the Chaos powers, its a 1/3+1/2 which comes out to be 83%

No, thats not how math works. You don't add them together. Roknar is correct

This explains why you though you could making a 2+/3++ rerollable with FNP deathstar for only 200 pts

Reavas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

Why would I want a higher chance to get a bad power instead of rolling on a table with several good powers? Telepathy has tons of great powers, so you want to roll on there entirely.

Telepathy has 2 great powers and 1 subjectivly good one (shrouded), it also has the most useless powers in game aswell, I personally don't roll on it unless I need invisibility.

First why are they bad what makes them bad the primas power is a S4 AP4 Assault 4 Blind, Pinning, Concussive, that is good against both necrons and Tau (troops) and if you happen to have a bunch of heldrakes flying around reducing everyone's LD it makes pinning much more likely granted you have to wound with it but still.

Second I can't stand Telepathy, in particular invisibility. I refuse to use it, its stupidly overpowered, and it does not make the game more fun, but much less fun in my experience. So if I roll it i will end up not using it so I avoid the table all together.

Thanks for correcting me on that, but each roll is still a 1 in 6 chance. You do get an increasing chance of rerolls, but you're not more likely to get any particular power per roll.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Reavas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

Why would I want a higher chance to get a bad power instead of rolling on a table with several good powers? Telepathy has tons of great powers, so you want to roll on there entirely.

Telepathy has 2 great powers and 1 subjectivly good one (shrouded), it also has the most useless powers in game aswell, I personally don't roll on it unless I need invisibility.

First why are they bad what makes them bad the primas power is a S4 AP4 Assault 4 Blind, Pinning, Concussive, that is good against both necrons and Tau (troops) and if you happen to have a bunch of heldrakes flying around reducing everyone's LD it makes pinning much more likely granted you have to wound with it but still.

Second I can't stand Telepathy, in particular invisibility. I refuse to use it, its stupidly overpowered, and it does not make the game more fun, but much less fun in my experience. So if I roll it i will end up not using it so I avoid the table all together.

That's four shots on a BS4 model. At S4. Pass.

Also you're basically admitting that the Telepathy table is just that much better with that second statement. Nobody cares if you're wanting to be a special snowflake and not use it out of principle. It is part of the game.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Reavas wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those powers aren't worth it is the point.

Fishing for something from the new tables, Biomancy, and Telepathy is better because the powers are better, it saves points, and lets the Sorcerers join a unit of any mark instead of confining them to one.

Simply put, it is a garbage idea and shouldn't be encouraged.

What powers what do they each do what are they good against?

Really? Fishing for a Spell with a 66% chance is better than going after an 80% percent chance of getting a spell, and you still have 1 more roll that you can use to pick up a primas power somewhere else so he could still get Psychic Shriek or Smite, if he wanted.

Why would I want a higher chance to get a bad power instead of rolling on a table with several good powers? Telepathy has tons of great powers, so you want to roll on there entirely.

Telepathy has 2 great powers and 1 subjectivly good one (shrouded), it also has the most useless powers in game aswell, I personally don't roll on it unless I need invisibility.

First why are they bad what makes them bad the primas power is a S4 AP4 Assault 4 Blind, Pinning, Concussive, that is good against both necrons and Tau (troops) and if you happen to have a bunch of heldrakes flying around reducing everyone's LD it makes pinning much more likely granted you have to wound with it but still.

Second I can't stand Telepathy, in particular invisibility. I refuse to use it, its stupidly overpowered, and it does not make the game more fun, but much less fun in my experience. So if I roll it i will end up not using it so I avoid the table all together.

The slaanesh powers are decent, but the new disciplines in particular are better yet. They also don't rely on several factors interacting, which is awesome when it works out, but is utterly unreliable.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
I disagree. If, and that's a big if, you want a particular power from the marked tables, they are easier to get than a normal psychic power. And psychic focus doesn't matter a whole lot if you ask me.

In order to get any one particular power you'll want at least 3 lvl 3 psykers, unmarked sorcerers in the case of rolling something like invisibility. That works pretty well and that's only a 3 in 6 chance per psyker.
Here, it's 2 in 3 chance, so a 66 vs a 50 % chance to get the power you want. You get the chaos discipline primaris because of chaos focus and you can always simply pick the primaris from another discipline.
So if you still want shriek...just get shriek or prescience, those are the only primaris you'd want to cast anyway, maybe summoning too, but the rest just kind of...exist and you rarely have the warp charges to waste on them.

Of course, whether or not the marked powers are something you want to invest in so heavily is up to the player. More often than not they aren't worth it.
The normal disciplines are generally better unless you have something very specific in mind, like base strength 10 csm, which is cool and all but not at all worth the points and efforts to pull that off reliably.

So to reiterate, marked powers are better for getting a specific power, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea. I agree that you're better off going unmarked outside of experimentation and fun.

Its actually a 1/6+1/5+1/4 chance which comes out to about 61 percent chance, with 3 psykers your only getting a 90% chance, diminished returns and all.

With the Chaos powers, its a 1/3+1/2 which comes out to be 83%

No, thats not how math works. You don't add them together. Roknar is correct

This explains why you though you could making a 2+/3++ rerollable with FNP deathstar for only 200 pts

OMG your stupid, yes it is how math works, in particular its how statistics work. It's called a dependent sample, each subsequent result is dependent on the previous roll. So the first roll is 1/6 then if you roll the same result you re-roll so it becomes 1/5 then after that you have to re-roll BOTH of those results leaving you with 1/4 this means on the last roll you have a 25% chance by itself.

Where in that post did I say death star? I said UNIT, not deathstar, in particular a mutilator with MoT and a lvl 3 sorcerer that rolled 1 time on 3 different tables, which has a 0.5% probability of occurring, plus a herald with bolt of change, you use endurance on the unit to get a 4+ FnP, then use bolt of change to buff that, cast cursed earth and you now have a 2+/3++, cast Veil of time and boom you have exactly what I described, its POSSIBLE, that doesn't make it LIKELY.

We want likely results, not IT CAN HAPPEN HEART OF THE CARDS!