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"Pay to play" is a legitimate criticism of any game exactly because it contradicts fairness.

I appreciate that people do not require these toys to survive. But that point is immaterial to the fact that businesses want to have a reputation for fair dealing. Scalper-friendly practices like creating an false sense of scarcity/urgency undermine the relationship between GW and its customers.

It contradicts fairness of the game, but not fairness to access to the product, which is what GW should be concerned about. If they cared about access to fairness in the game, all product would need to be free, and they wouldn't be able to stay in business. Because that's the only "Fair" access to product.

I'm not sure if you're aware that this continues to be a sense of "deserving" access to product that is a luxury item. No matter what financial cost, you have to pay "something" to play the game. Whether or not you can afford to play "high end" is a case of determining if you value that or not. It is not something that GW owes anyone.

In other words, access to the product is only "unfair" if you don't want to pay what people are selling for.

EDIT: Scratch that. That's still fair. It's just not what someone would want. It can NOT be unfair, as it is not a necessity.

Whoa no one is even close to arguing GW should give away its products for free. I get that you want to build a false dilemma but come back down to earth. There is room for improvement between the current practice and the Soviet Utopia. It's really simple: Sold Out, especially in contrast to Temporarily Out of Stock, implies the product may never be available again, which drives scalping. It would be better for customers for GW to mark every out of stock product that they can reprint as "Inform Me When Back In Stock" and thereby avoid helping the scalpers.

There is no false dilemma here, and none is being created. You've said there is "unfairness" in people scalping. That is false, regarding business practices. GW can not, and is no way responsible for, the financial repercussions of selling their product.

You're putting a moral burden upon GW that does not belong. There is no "morality" in selling a luxury item. [With an argument for addictive substances not withstanding.] The only way they would have a moral obligation would be if this was a necessity. Which it clearly is not.

You're attempting to put a moral burden on a company, for the "immoral" behavior of their customers. Even then, it truly is just a downside of the free market. No morality, just desire and availability. GW could put, "Gone unless we ever feel like making it again" and that would be the most accurate statement. So does an end user believe that they will eventually make more? Maybe. If they do, are they patient enough to wait for that, or will they pay the premium on-top-of-premium for immediate access to the product?

Not a moral issue. Purely a financial transaction. Unless the purchaser believes they are owed something. That they deserve access, and that is being withheld. Only then can a sense of "unfairness" be applied. Only then can it become a moral issue of denial of something that is fairly and justly due. Again, that's not a real-world thing, when it comes to a luxury item.

And I'm sure GW love the scalping practice.

GW make X amount of product to make a profit on.
They make the same amount of money whoever buys it.
Secondly, it means the real GW customers desperately buy everything the second it's released to avoid being scalped.

It's all a win-win situation for GW.

Well, as above, but less cynical. Quite frankly, if I was a GW employee, and knew that the market value was higher than list price, I'd take advantage of my employee discount and then enjoy a double-whammy of profit.

Seriously, if they get a 40% discount, and then sell at a 50% markup, they'd be making a killing.

The kick of it is that GW could just as easily sell the dice at that higher / scalper price, and people would still pay it. Quite frankly, people should be kissing GW's fat wallet that they have an opportunity to buy the dice at less than market value at all. Winners rejoice, and the slow / unlucky still have to pay full pop / market value.

Of course, that would indicate that a person had a sense of gratitude for their luxury item, instead of a feeling of getting what they already deserved.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Well, as above, but less cynical. Quite frankly, if I was a GW employee, and knew that the market value was higher than list price, I'd take advantage of my employee discount and then enjoy a double-whammy of profit.

Seriously, if they get a 40% discount, and then sell at a 50% markup, they'd be making a killing.

The kick of it is that GW could just as easily sell the dice at that higher / scalper price, and people would still pay it. Quite frankly, people should be kissing GW's fat wallet that they have an opportunity to buy the dice at less than market value at all. Winners rejoice, and the slow / unlucky still have to pay full pop / market value.

Of course, that would indicate that a person had a sense of gratitude for their luxury item, instead of a feeling of getting what they already deserved.

They'd be fired if they did that.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Manchu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
How is it exactly surprising that specialty dice, a long-standing limited run item, were a limited run?

Pretty surprising in the BB case. The excellent boxed set comes with color-coded team dice. It made sense that the third available team would have its own dice, as well. Since the Skaven team did not seem to be limited, it followed that the dice would probably not be limited. Even now, I don't believe "limited" means anything more than "we will reprint if/when it suits us." After seeing the GC Cult dice fly off the website, I had a much stronger case for constructive notice regarding the 1k Sons dice. But if you look at ebay, those prices are closer to MSRP. I wonder if it is because there is confidence in among customers that 1k Sons dice will be back or if custom dice just have a stronger value for BB than 40k/AoS.

With all the dice they rarely if ever seem to be marked as limited edition. Hell for the GSC dice when they sold out initially they were marked as temporarily out of stock.

LOL no I haven't burdened GW with any frivolous moral responsibility. Rather, I have simply explained that it's in the best interests of a business to have a reputation for fair dealing among its customers. Practices that foster/encourage scalping, or strongly appear to do so, undermine that reputation and the business's relationship with its customers - and, ultimately, the very brand of the product. GW's current practices result in a problem. Maybe it's not your problem personally but who cares? it's a problem nonetheless. During the worst years of GW's anti-customer era, there was always someone on the internet willing to defend whatever GW was doing because "blah blah blah luxury item" and it was never convincing. It still isn't. The reason is, the issue is brand experience rather than some Ayn Rand nonsense about the amorality of capitalism.

Um, you've exactly done that. You've expressed that they've acted unfairly. I'm left of centre, please don't associate me with right-wing politics.

The best interests of a business have nothing to do with fairness. Walmart treats their employees and suppliers poorly. Some might even say unfairly. They succeed in business.

This is not a case of whether or not it's a problem for me. I'd like to have fancy dice. I don't defend GW. I deny the validity of an argument saying that a luxury item CAN be unfairly priced, because it can't be. I have not seen one defense of that notion supplied. GW CAN'T unfairly price a package of "special dice", nor can anyone. Unfair can only be applied to a necessity. A scalper can't UNFAIRLY price their resold dice, because they're not a necessity. It's not a "problem" for anyone. They choose how to spend their money and live with the consequences.

Sure it's not nice, but business in any form isn't "nice". Why should scalping be any different? They buy a product, and resell it at a higher value. Same as every other successful store / business in the history of human kind.

It's only dice.

Of course "fairness" can be applied to the cost of items that are not strictly necessary for survival. Fairness is a subjective experience but that doesn't make it any less real. A customer may not care if Wal Mart fleeces its employees but he does care if Wal Mart is fleecing him.

Are scalpers just distributors by another name? No. As Yodhrin alluded, distributors create value to the customer by making product available to them (which can involve taking advantage of pricing difference across markets). Scalpers charge mark ups without creating value. Scalpers actually rely on sabotaging market efficiency in order to drive price.

Yeah, having been through something similar with shortages jumping prices absurdly, scalpels get no love from me.

I've got no problem with someone buying two copies, one to use and another to sell at a later date when its no longer available. It's when they make it impossible to buy the item at its normal cost or jump the price 50%, 100%, or 200%+ that they need to be drowned in the gene pool.

The "buy two copies" trick can certainly be part of the problem, especially when, for whatever reason, demand far exceeds supply and the sole supplier is fickle about communicating its intentions on restocking.

 Dropbear Victim wrote:
By scalping theyre taking away hobby budget that could have been spent on other things. They indirectly rob the producers and stockists via less sales of other stuff, and outright rob end consumers.

By that logic, Doc Marten are indirectly robbing miniature producers if I chose to buy a new pair of boots instead of a Storm Raven...


Scalpers aren't 'robbing' anyone. If the price is clearly displayed, and you choose to pay that price, that's entirely on you. Scalping wouldn't happen if people refused to pay inflated prices.

For what it's worth, those inflated prices quite often aren't even set by the scalpers. Sellers will set their prices based on what they see the product selling for elsewhere.


Hell, back when I was doing Bitz selling, and GW were producing army boxes with limited ed minis in them, I used to buy the army boxes and split them up for eBay. Many of the limited edition minis sold for ridiculous amounts of money... but every single one of them was listed on eBay for a starting price of 99c.

People will pay what they are willing to pay.

 insaniak wrote:
Scalpers aren't 'robbing' anyone. If the price is clearly displayed, and you choose to pay that price, that's entirely on you. Scalping wouldn't happen if people refused to pay inflated prices.

The whole reason I dislike scalpers is because I don't pay the inflated prices. Instead I just miss out on stuff.

I also dislike scalping because it creates an artificial market that leeches off the rest of the community. The same way buying stuff off recasters competes for hobby dollars but those recasters aren't adding anything to the community, scalping competes for money that could go to people who actually contribute.

At the end of the day I just see it as leeching. We can argue about how bad it is or who is to blame for it (and I certainly place a large amount of the blame at GW's feet), but either way it's still just parasitic in my eyes.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The whole reason I dislike scalpers is because I don't pay the inflated prices. Instead I just miss out on stuff.

Yes, exactly. The people who pay the scalpers' prices aren't generally the ones complaining because, after all, they still accepted the bargain. The people who complain are those who get shut out because a market has been undermined by scalping.

I feel Scalping is wrong in community forums like the one in question and feel they can do their scalping on eBay (where the same dice could be found for half the price), but its the site owners decision on what they allow or not.

It's a compelling reason not to buy LE products at resale.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The whole reason I dislike scalpers is because I don't pay the inflated prices. Instead I just miss out on stuff.

That's a reason to dislike the practice of releasing stuff in limited quantities, rather than a reason to dislike scalpers.

I also dislike scalping because it creates an artificial market that leeches off the rest of the community. The same way buying stuff off recasters competes for hobby dollars but those recasters aren't adding anything to the community, scalping competes for money that could go to people who actually contribute.

Assuming that the extra money spent on the scalped stuff would have gone to other hobby-related purchases instead if the purchaser had payed normal retail for that product...


It's hard to say with any sort of certainty that this would actually happen.

 insaniak wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The whole reason I dislike scalpers is because I don't pay the inflated prices. Instead I just miss out on stuff.

That's a reason to dislike the practice of releasing stuff in limited quantities, rather than a reason to dislike scalpers.

It can be both. It is for me.


Also, great post back there, Yodhrin. Despite our often disagreeing on things, posts like that are why you're not on ignore.

 Manchu wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The whole reason I dislike scalpers is because I don't pay the inflated prices. Instead I just miss out on stuff.

Yes, exactly. The people who pay the scalpers' prices aren't generally the ones complaining because, after all, they still accepted the bargain. The people who complain are those who get shut out because a market has been undermined by scalping.

NO. Dead wrong. You don't miss out on a single thing. You weren't owed anything. You lost nothing. You didn't get what you wanted, but you didn't lose anything. Because you didn't spend your money on an optional item.

If it was food, that would be different. You'd lose out on nutrition, something you NEED. Instead, you didn't get what you WANTED. But you didn't lose. Unless you felt you were entitled to that item in the first place. Which you aren't. Misunderstanding not getting what you wanted with not getting something you deserved or needed, is the root of the irritation. The problem is not with scalping. The problem is with people thinking they deserve something because they want it.

The market has not been undermined. The market's integrity is valid. The market value for an item has been paid. Basic economics. Scalping can not exist in situations where the "original" seller has correctly priced the value of an item. Where this item is undervalued by the original seller, then room is left for people willing to take a risk by purchasing excess quantities to make a profit by reselling.

If I buy wheat from a farmer, and resell it at a profit, then that's legitimate. If I buy every single grain of wheat, and then sell it for more than it would be worth in an open market [monopoly] then that would be morally wrong. But that's a foodstuff. That's a necessity. If I buy every single model GW ever makes, and then resell them at a profit, that's me taking a risk. It's what makes scalping work. If the dice were sold for double their list price, you wouldn't have scalpers, because the risk vs reward system would not exist.

This complaint is exactly equal to saying that GW should increase their pricing on dice, so that scalpers can't mark them up. Instead of taking advantage of the opportunities to buy product at a lower than market value and being grateful, complaining that they have to pay the proper, market value for something. Such a perspective.

The analysis absolutely does not hinge on the good in question being required for survival or the consumer being somehow "deserving" or otherwise entitled. You can keep beating that horse but it was never even alive, my friend.

The retail market is about bringing goods and customers together. What scalpers do is step in between goods and customers in order to charge the customers for that very interference.

 Manchu wrote:
. What scalpers do is step in between goods and customers in order to charge the customers for that very interference.

Which can only happen if the goods are being presented in a limited quantity at a price that is lower than the market will bear.

If the original seller produces enough quantity to satisfy demand and/or raises his price (in order to limit demand to a specific level) then the scalper has no platform.

You are preaching to the choir:

 Manchu wrote:
Sure but the only reason people get away with fleecing others like that is because GW sets the whole thing up in the first place.

However the claim that scalper-inflated prices indicate MSRP is "below market" is nonsense.

In other news, I think I just seriously suggested that GW should raise their prices.

Oy...

Yeah, that is more than a bit silly.

GW doesn't need to end scalping (as if it could!) it just needs to change practices that help or appear to help scalpers, like being so opaque about print runs and reprints.

As Kanluwen mentioned, clarifications (or perhaps the change of heart?) regarding the Blanche-inspired Adepta Sororitas sculpt is a step in the right direction.

 insaniak wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The whole reason I dislike scalpers is because I don't pay the inflated prices. Instead I just miss out on stuff.

That's a reason to dislike the practice of releasing stuff in limited quantities, rather than a reason to dislike scalpers.

Well in the part of my post you didn't quote I said I also place plenty of the blame at the feet of GW.

It doesn't stop me disliking scalpers. There are respectable ways to make money, scalping is not one of them. At least used car salesmen provide a service, scalpers are simply parasites.

I also dislike scalping because it creates an artificial market that leeches off the rest of the community. The same way buying stuff off recasters competes for hobby dollars but those recasters aren't adding anything to the community, scalping competes for money that could go to people who actually contribute.

Assuming that the extra money spent on the scalped stuff would have gone to other hobby-related purchases instead if the purchaser had payed normal retail for that product...


It's hard to say with any sort of certainty that this would actually happen.

Of course nothing can be said with certainty, but given the finite nature of a person's finance I don't think it's a terribly large stretch of the imagination.

If things are kept in stock there would be no need for scalping and it helps to create another thing GW does not want the re-casting market (maybe not for dice though )

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
At least used car salesmen provide a service, scalpers are simply parasites.

Given how many of GWs limited releases have sold out within minutes of going on sale over the last few years, it could be argued that scalpers make those releases available to potential buyers who missed the initial feeding frenzy...

Of course nothing can be said with certainty, but given the finite nature of a person's finance I don't think it's a terribly large stretch of the imagination.

The point is that someone having a finite hobby budget doesn't mean that they'll spend that entire budget on other things if they don't buy this one thing here.

While I acknowledge that I'm probably not typical, I went for a fairly long stretch where Limited Ed models (either direct from GW or tracked down on eBay) were all that I was buying for myself, as I just didn't need anything else. If there was nothing available on a given week/month/whatever, then I just didn't buy anything.

So a given limited release being available for less wouldn't have made me throw money at GW for other stuff. It just would have resulted in me spending less.

 insaniak wrote:
it could be argued

But do you really want to make and defend that argument?