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Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: An informed citizenry is America's best defence against any dodgy dealings on Capitol Hill.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Very wise words.
Very wise words indeed. Too bad everyone is too busy with social media, video games and celebrity gossip to be bothered with becoming well informed. Opiate of the mass and blah, blah
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: An informed citizenry is America's best defence against any dodgy dealings on Capitol Hill.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Very wise words.
Very wise words indeed. Too bad everyone is too busy with social media, video games and celebrity gossip to be bothered with becoming well informed. Opiate of the mass and blah, blah
-
It's the 3 cycles of democracy: Revolution, corruption, tyranny, repeat ad infinitum. I think the USA is hovering somewhere between corruption and tyranny.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Nah, we're in the 4th cycle: apathy. Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter how much we might be outraged at our chosen party, when election day comes, most will still vote for whoever their party has thrown up, because who's really going to vote for the other party?
"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks
Tannhauser42 wrote: Nah, we're in the 4th cycle: apathy. Like I said earlier, it doesn't matter how much we might be outraged at our chosen party, when election day comes, most will still vote for whoever their party has thrown up, because who's really going to vote for the other party?
Then you, and anybody else you can find, must be the people to break the tradition and vote third party.
I''ve probably used this example before on the USA politics thread, but my party, SNP (Scottish National Party) which campaigns for Scottish independence and an end to the UK, started off decades ago as a fringe movement and went through tough times.
The Labour party were the dominant force in Scotland, and remained there for decades. Such was their dominance, they weighed the vote, they didn't count it, come election time. In some parts of Scotland, a traffic cone could have been the Labour candidate and they still would have won.
But years later, the SNP have smashed the Labour party to pieces and have controlled the Scottish 'state legislator' for 10 years now and will be pushing for another independence referendum pretty soon. Not bad for a party that at one time could have fitted its entire membership into a phone booth.
Yes, the American political system is obviously different, but even small parties can win in the end if you keep up the good fight.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Rosebuddy wrote: The Democrats are just so endlessly stupid because their slavish devotion to building bridges and meeting halfway only works if the other side is interested in cooperation rather than gaining power to do as they please, and is so extreme that Democrats will try to compromise before even making demands of their own. They're idiots and cowards and the way forward lies through them instead of with them.
Is this serious or sarcastic?
How would that possibly work as sarcasm? Have you seen the massive political losses the Democratic Party is taking and have been taking for a decade? Disgust is the only appropriate reaction.
Somewhat agreed. The Democrats must learn that it is impossible to compromise with the deluded. The modern GOP is the party that wants everything, burns the house down when it doesn't get what it wants, and then blames the Democrats for the fire. And their supporters believe it. Democrats must go scorched earth, run more candidates in every election, refuse to compromise, just like the GOP, and attack Republicans in the same ways that Republicans attack them. It's been proven that the high road doesn't work. The GOP suppresses minority votes and gerrymanders heavily. The Democrats cannot tolerate that. Attack it. HATE it.
And if they succeed and finally get a majority, they can justify it, as it was for the greater good. Time to go Full Machiavelli.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 17:06:48
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
Rosebuddy wrote: The Democrats are just so endlessly stupid because their slavish devotion to building bridges and meeting halfway only works if the other side is interested in cooperation rather than gaining power to do as they please, and is so extreme that Democrats will try to compromise before even making demands of their own. They're idiots and cowards and the way forward lies through them instead of with them.
Is this serious or sarcastic?
How would that possibly work as sarcasm? Have you seen the massive political losses the Democratic Party is taking and have been taking for a decade? Disgust is the only appropriate reaction.
Somewhat agreed. The Democrats must learn that it is impossible to compromise with the deluded. The modern GOP is the party that wants everything, burns the house down when it doesn't get what it wants, and then blames the Democrats for the fire. And their supporters believe it. Democrats must go scorched earth, run more candidates in every election, refuse to compromise, just like the GOP, and attack Republicans in the same ways that Republicans attack them. It's been proven that the high road doesn't work. The GOP suppresses minority votes and gerrymanders heavily. The Democrats cannot tolerate that. Attack it. HATE it.
And if they succeed and finally get a majority, they can justify it, as it was for the greater good. Time to go Full Machiavelli.
And welcome to the monkey poo throwing match.
It might work but US Political system look like a death match.
Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.
Anyway, this doesn't seem like a good idea. I get there are problems with the way things can and have been handled, so why not try to fix those problems rather than neuter independent oversight?
It's interesting that places like CNN and the BBC are running this as their big banner article on their websites, and even Fox News is running it with a practically identical headline...but as a smaller side story... behind how Assange is saying that Obama is trying to weaken trump to distract from hacked emails...
We are so...so screwed...
Eh... it's a dept that's only 8 years old, that has had numerous problems for both side of the aisle.
However, the politics of this looks incredibly awful... I'm with Tanner... if it's so bad, try to fix it in a bipartisan manner.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vash108 wrote: Pence is just as frightening to me with his theocratic views.
:rolls eyes:
This will be the new 'Obama is a secret muslim'... amirite?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 17:17:10
The difference being, Obama is not a muslim. There is ample proof that Pence puts his religion over the country.
Here are some objective facts. I know those don't matter anymore, but I choose to fight for reason. This is copy/pasted from an outside source.
In the three years since Pence took office, he:
• Pushed through legislation making harsher penalties for drug crimes against the protests of numerous major legal organizations including the Indiana Bar Association, as well as most Hoosiers
• Inherited a phenomenal state balance sheet from Mitch Daniels and used it as an excuse to push tax cuts so extreme (would have caused a tremendous deficit) that the Republican-controlled Congress shut him down
• Tried and failed to amend the Indiana constitution to ban gay marriage, despite widespread polling that showed that Hoosiers didn't support it, and despite the vociferous condemnation of virtually every major business in the state
• Since his gay marriage amendment failed, he literally, as payback (not exaggerating, the signing ceremony was invite only, no media was allowed or invited, but someone leaked a picture that showed Pence surrounded by well-known anti-LGBT extremists), came back with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which was a genuine political circus. It humiliated Indiana on the national stage, directly harmed Indianapolis, and was met with, perhaps, the fiercest backlash by the people of any state in the Union. The extraordinary protests of Hoosiers and businesses allowed the state GOP leaders to basically coerce--to his visible chagrin--Pence to amend the law and "fix it" (this was actually the front page of the biggest newspaper in Indiana).
• The RFRA was such a debacle that Pence ended up hiring an expensive out-of-state public relations firm to heal Indiana's national image. He couldn't answer why he chose an out-of-state firm. He couldn't answer why he chose such an expensive firm, when there are many firms in Indiana that could have done the job. It was eventually canceled, and was yet another waste of taxpayer money. To date, the RFRA has cost Indianapolis (a city that fought against it, changed the official tourism website to rainbow colors, and hung a huge rainbow banner at the airport) $60 million, and the total cost--to the economy and reputation--to the rest of the state is unknown.
• During the gay marriage supreme court fight, he literally sent the Indiana attorney general to other states to advise them on how to craft their laws and fight gay marriage nationally. He did this on the taxpayer dollar. He continued to spend taxpayer money fighting gay marriage in the courts and with lawsuits despite, at the time, everyone knowing what the Supreme Court decision was going to be. It was basically a political stand by Pence; an expensive political stand that Hoosiers didn't support.
• He fought to pass a law preventing cities from passing their own minimum wage statutes. Is this "small government"?
• He has acted like a strongman (think Turkey's Erdoğan), doing everything in his power to make Glenda Ritz, the state superintendent and an elected official, quit her job, and barring that, stripping her of the power given to her by the Indiana constitute and the Hoosiers that elected her through backroom deals, conspiracy, and highly technical legal challenges. Just Google "Mike Pence Glenda Ritz." You could write a thesis on it.
• Everyone, literally everyone, was on board for receiving a huge federal grant for preschool funding. The Indiana Department of Education was literally in the final stages of the application process--and the federal government was happy with Indiana and going to give us an especially large chunk of money--when Pence came in and shut it down for no reason because accepting money from the feds became politically untenable among the national GOP tea partier crowd. And, of course, you can't be elected president--Pence's eyes were always on the future--without support from the GOP's far right base. After shutting down the process, he has recently been opining that it would be a good idea to get federal money to fund preschools... A year after he gak all over the Dept of Education's proposal to do just that.
• The HIV epidemic in southern Indiana is out of control and among the worst in the country. Of course, we could provide free needles for heroin addicts like has been done in many states to curb HIV problems, but that is politically repugnant to Mike Pence. He also managed to get the Planned Parenthoods in that part of the state shut down, eliminating the opportunity for poor people to get tested. The HIV epidemic, which never had to be an epidemic, continues, and Pence gets to push the problem on our future governor as he goes to join Trump on the national stage.
• Speaking of Planned Parenthood, Pence is highly proud of his accomplishment at passing the single most restrictive abortion law since Roe vs Wade. The law, HEA 1337 is far stricter than anything even in the Deep South and is almost certainly unconstitutional. He knows that it's probably unconstitutional. Nevertheless, Indiana taxpayers will spend millions of dollars for our attorney general to fight the law all the way to the Supreme Court, just so Pence could make his political statement.
• He literally tried to make a state-run news agency that he would then give exclusive interviews and access to. I don't even know if that's legal, but he tried to do it and was promptly crucified by the media and even his own party.
• He asserted authority to ban Syrian refugees from being settled in Indiana. He has no authority. No governor has. He knew that, but he was planning to be a GOP presidential candidate, and he needed to show that he was strong and anti-Muslim refugee to appease the national GOP base. He took leadership role in this discriminatory crusade, appearing on national TV to preach his ignorance. This particular event managed to throw multiple refugee settlement organizations into disarray--which, by the way, actually include the Catholic Church of Indiana (the arch bishop of Indianapolis publicly criticized the governor)--and several Syrian refugees which were well into the process of moving to Indiana had to be relocated to another state. Pence didn't back down until the courts affirmed that his order was unconstitutional.
• He shut down a highly successful energy efficiency program--one of the first in the nation, making Indiana a trailblazer--initiated by the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission with the support of previous governor Mitch Daniels. He did this for no good reason, other than to signal to his far-right constituents that he was fighting against Obama's evil despotic EPA.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 17:23:10
Peregrine - If you like the army buy it, and don't worry about what one random person on the internet thinks.
It's hard to disagree with that stance, though. As a neutral observer, I think it's high time the Democrats cried havoc and let slip the dogs of war. Give the GOP a dose of their own medicine.
Take the nuclear option - and refuse to co-operate or compromise with the GOP, stage mass walk outs, have its members refuse to attend the Senate or Congress and see how the GOP like playing it out in half-empty chambers.
The American people might sit up and take notice and wonder what the feth is going on.
It sounds drastic and it is, but to this neutral observer, there's only one language the GOP understands.
At any rate, with the Executive, senate, congress and a friendly SCOTUS, the GOP will probably get arrogant anyway and not give two hoots for the Democrats. The Democrats may as well take a long vacation.
The Democrats could also harness the energy of the protest groups and peacefully bring the country to a standstill with mass rallies and demonstrations by taking a leaf out of the 1960s playbook.
If the GOP wants to play hardball then the Democrats should face them front and centre.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/01/03 17:36:48
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Verviedi wrote: The difference being, Obama is not a muslim. There is ample proof that Pence puts his religion over the country.
Here are some objective facts. I know those don't matter anymore, but I choose to fight for reason. This is copy/pasted from an outside source.
In the three years since Pence took office, he:
Spoiler:
• Pushed through legislation making harsher penalties for drug crimes against the protests of numerous major legal organizations including the Indiana Bar Association, as well as most Hoosiers
• Inherited a phenomenal state balance sheet from Mitch Daniels and used it as an excuse to push tax cuts so extreme (would have caused a tremendous deficit) that the Republican-controlled Congress shut him down
• Tried and failed to amend the Indiana constitution to ban gay marriage, despite widespread polling that showed that Hoosiers didn't support it, and despite the vociferous condemnation of virtually every major business in the state
• Since his gay marriage amendment failed, he literally, as payback (not exaggerating, the signing ceremony was invite only, no media was allowed or invited, but someone leaked a picture that showed Pence surrounded by well-known anti-LGBT extremists), came back with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which was a genuine political circus. It humiliated Indiana on the national stage, directly harmed Indianapolis, and was met with, perhaps, the fiercest backlash by the people of any state in the Union. The extraordinary protests of Hoosiers and businesses allowed the state GOP leaders to basically coerce--to his visible chagrin--Pence to amend the law and "fix it" (this was actually the front page of the biggest newspaper in Indiana).
• The RFRA was such a debacle that Pence ended up hiring an expensive out-of-state public relations firm to heal Indiana's national image. He couldn't answer why he chose an out-of-state firm. He couldn't answer why he chose such an expensive firm, when there are many firms in Indiana that could have done the job. It was eventually canceled, and was yet another waste of taxpayer money. To date, the RFRA has cost Indianapolis (a city that fought against it, changed the official tourism website to rainbow colors, and hung a huge rainbow banner at the airport) $60 million, and the total cost--to the economy and reputation--to the rest of the state is unknown.
• During the gay marriage supreme court fight, he literally sent the Indiana attorney general to other states to advise them on how to craft their laws and fight gay marriage nationally. He did this on the taxpayer dollar. He continued to spend taxpayer money fighting gay marriage in the courts and with lawsuits despite, at the time, everyone knowing what the Supreme Court decision was going to be. It was basically a political stand by Pence; an expensive political stand that Hoosiers didn't support.
• He fought to pass a law preventing cities from passing their own minimum wage statutes. Is this "small government"?
• He has acted like a strongman (think Turkey's Erdoğan), doing everything in his power to make Glenda Ritz, the state superintendent and an elected official, quit her job, and barring that, stripping her of the power given to her by the Indiana constitute and the Hoosiers that elected her through backroom deals, conspiracy, and highly technical legal challenges. Just Google "Mike Pence Glenda Ritz." You could write a thesis on it.
• Everyone, literally everyone, was on board for receiving a huge federal grant for preschool funding. The Indiana Department of Education was literally in the final stages of the application process--and the federal government was happy with Indiana and going to give us an especially large chunk of money--when Pence came in and shut it down for no reason because accepting money from the feds became politically untenable among the national GOP tea partier crowd. And, of course, you can't be elected president--Pence's eyes were always on the future--without support from the GOP's far right base. After shutting down the process, he has recently been opining that it would be a good idea to get federal money to fund preschools... A year after he gak all over the Dept of Education's proposal to do just that.
• The HIV epidemic in southern Indiana is out of control and among the worst in the country. Of course, we could provide free needles for heroin addicts like has been done in many states to curb HIV problems, but that is politically repugnant to Mike Pence. He also managed to get the Planned Parenthoods in that part of the state shut down, eliminating the opportunity for poor people to get tested. The HIV epidemic, which never had to be an epidemic, continues, and Pence gets to push the problem on our future governor as he goes to join Trump on the national stage.
• Speaking of Planned Parenthood, Pence is highly proud of his accomplishment at passing the single most restrictive abortion law since Roe vs Wade. The law, HEA 1337 is far stricter than anything even in the Deep South and is almost certainly unconstitutional. He knows that it's probably unconstitutional. Nevertheless, Indiana taxpayers will spend millions of dollars for our attorney general to fight the law all the way to the Supreme Court, just so Pence could make his political statement.
• He literally tried to make a state-run news agency that he would then give exclusive interviews and access to. I don't even know if that's legal, but he tried to do it and was promptly crucified by the media and even his own party.
• He asserted authority to ban Syrian refugees from being settled in Indiana. He has no authority. No governor has. He knew that, but he was planning to be a GOP presidential candidate, and he needed to show that he was strong and anti-Muslim refugee to appease the national GOP base. He took leadership role in this discriminatory crusade, appearing on national TV to preach his ignorance. This particular event managed to throw multiple refugee settlement organizations into disarray--which, by the way, actually include the Catholic Church of Indiana (the arch bishop of Indianapolis publicly criticized the governor)--and several Syrian refugees which were well into the process of moving to Indiana had to be relocated to another state. Pence didn't back down until the courts affirmed that his order was unconstitutional.
• He shut down a highly successful energy efficiency program--one of the first in the nation, making Indiana a trailblazer--initiated by the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission with the support of previous governor Mitch Daniels. He did this for no good reason, other than to signal to his far-right constituents that he was fighting against Obama's evil despotic EPA.
Some very opinionated reportings on the facts.
Do you want me to respond? If so, please provide the link where you got this.
Beside, at cursory look, that's not an argument that he's a living, breathing theocrat.... it's just a listing of one-side rant against Pence.
It's hard to disagree with that stance, though. As a neutral observer, I think it's high time the Democrats cried havoc and let slip the dogs of war. Give the GOP a dose of their own medicine.
Take the nuclear option - and refuse to co-operate or compromise with the GOP, stage mass walk outs, have its members refuse to attend the Senate or Congress and see how the GOP like playing it out in half-empty chambers.
Cool... let 'em try.
The American people might sit up and take notice and wonder what the feth is going on.
It sounds drastic and it is, but to this neutral observer, there's only one language the GOP understands.
Won't work. They control the House/Senate/WH. The only reason nothing of significant worked in the last few years was that Obama simply veto'ed or threatened to veto many GOP passed bills.
At any rate, with the Executive, senate, congress and a friendly SCOTUS, the GOP will probably get arrogant anyway and not give two hoots for the Democrats. The Democrats may as well take a long vacation.
'Tis why it'll be suicide for Democrats.
The Democrats could also harness the energy of the protest groups and peacefully bring the country to a standstill with mass rallies and demonstrations by taking a leaf out of the 1960s playbook.
If the GOP wants to play hardball then the Democrats should face them front and centre.
Cool.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 17:49:05
Verviedi wrote: The difference being, Obama is not a muslim. There is ample proof that Pence puts his religion over the country.
Here are some objective facts. I know those don't matter anymore, but I choose to fight for reason. This is copy/pasted from an outside source.
In the three years since Pence took office, he:
Spoiler:
• Pushed through legislation making harsher penalties for drug crimes against the protests of numerous major legal organizations including the Indiana Bar Association, as well as most Hoosiers
• Inherited a phenomenal state balance sheet from Mitch Daniels and used it as an excuse to push tax cuts so extreme (would have caused a tremendous deficit) that the Republican-controlled Congress shut him down
• Tried and failed to amend the Indiana constitution to ban gay marriage, despite widespread polling that showed that Hoosiers didn't support it, and despite the vociferous condemnation of virtually every major business in the state
• Since his gay marriage amendment failed, he literally, as payback (not exaggerating, the signing ceremony was invite only, no media was allowed or invited, but someone leaked a picture that showed Pence surrounded by well-known anti-LGBT extremists), came back with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which was a genuine political circus. It humiliated Indiana on the national stage, directly harmed Indianapolis, and was met with, perhaps, the fiercest backlash by the people of any state in the Union. The extraordinary protests of Hoosiers and businesses allowed the state GOP leaders to basically coerce--to his visible chagrin--Pence to amend the law and "fix it" (this was actually the front page of the biggest newspaper in Indiana).
• The RFRA was such a debacle that Pence ended up hiring an expensive out-of-state public relations firm to heal Indiana's national image. He couldn't answer why he chose an out-of-state firm. He couldn't answer why he chose such an expensive firm, when there are many firms in Indiana that could have done the job. It was eventually canceled, and was yet another waste of taxpayer money. To date, the RFRA has cost Indianapolis (a city that fought against it, changed the official tourism website to rainbow colors, and hung a huge rainbow banner at the airport) $60 million, and the total cost--to the economy and reputation--to the rest of the state is unknown.
• During the gay marriage supreme court fight, he literally sent the Indiana attorney general to other states to advise them on how to craft their laws and fight gay marriage nationally. He did this on the taxpayer dollar. He continued to spend taxpayer money fighting gay marriage in the courts and with lawsuits despite, at the time, everyone knowing what the Supreme Court decision was going to be. It was basically a political stand by Pence; an expensive political stand that Hoosiers didn't support.
• He fought to pass a law preventing cities from passing their own minimum wage statutes. Is this "small government"?
• He has acted like a strongman (think Turkey's Erdoğan), doing everything in his power to make Glenda Ritz, the state superintendent and an elected official, quit her job, and barring that, stripping her of the power given to her by the Indiana constitute and the Hoosiers that elected her through backroom deals, conspiracy, and highly technical legal challenges. Just Google "Mike Pence Glenda Ritz." You could write a thesis on it.
• Everyone, literally everyone, was on board for receiving a huge federal grant for preschool funding. The Indiana Department of Education was literally in the final stages of the application process--and the federal government was happy with Indiana and going to give us an especially large chunk of money--when Pence came in and shut it down for no reason because accepting money from the feds became politically untenable among the national GOP tea partier crowd. And, of course, you can't be elected president--Pence's eyes were always on the future--without support from the GOP's far right base. After shutting down the process, he has recently been opining that it would be a good idea to get federal money to fund preschools... A year after he gak all over the Dept of Education's proposal to do just that.
• The HIV epidemic in southern Indiana is out of control and among the worst in the country. Of course, we could provide free needles for heroin addicts like has been done in many states to curb HIV problems, but that is politically repugnant to Mike Pence. He also managed to get the Planned Parenthoods in that part of the state shut down, eliminating the opportunity for poor people to get tested. The HIV epidemic, which never had to be an epidemic, continues, and Pence gets to push the problem on our future governor as he goes to join Trump on the national stage.
• Speaking of Planned Parenthood, Pence is highly proud of his accomplishment at passing the single most restrictive abortion law since Roe vs Wade. The law, HEA 1337 is far stricter than anything even in the Deep South and is almost certainly unconstitutional. He knows that it's probably unconstitutional. Nevertheless, Indiana taxpayers will spend millions of dollars for our attorney general to fight the law all the way to the Supreme Court, just so Pence could make his political statement.
• He literally tried to make a state-run news agency that he would then give exclusive interviews and access to. I don't even know if that's legal, but he tried to do it and was promptly crucified by the media and even his own party.
• He asserted authority to ban Syrian refugees from being settled in Indiana. He has no authority. No governor has. He knew that, but he was planning to be a GOP presidential candidate, and he needed to show that he was strong and anti-Muslim refugee to appease the national GOP base. He took leadership role in this discriminatory crusade, appearing on national TV to preach his ignorance. This particular event managed to throw multiple refugee settlement organizations into disarray--which, by the way, actually include the Catholic Church of Indiana (the arch bishop of Indianapolis publicly criticized the governor)--and several Syrian refugees which were well into the process of moving to Indiana had to be relocated to another state. Pence didn't back down until the courts affirmed that his order was unconstitutional.
• He shut down a highly successful energy efficiency program--one of the first in the nation, making Indiana a trailblazer--initiated by the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission with the support of previous governor Mitch Daniels. He did this for no good reason, other than to signal to his far-right constituents that he was fighting against Obama's evil despotic EPA.
Some very opinionated reportings on the facts.
Do you want me to respond? If so, please provide the link where you got this.
Beside, at cursory look, that's not an argument that he's a living, breathing theocrat.... it's just a listing of one-side rant against Pence.
Whem, one has proof, that Pence has theocratic tenancies (from his repeated attempts to put his own religion into law) and the other had no proof whatsoever, that Obama is a Secretmuslim™. It being one-sided has nothing to do with it.
Also, you complain that what he posted is one-sided is hilarious.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
You may dismiss it out of hand, Whembly, but the old rules no longer work, and the rulebook is likely to go out the window and be ran over by a Sherman tank, with Trump at 1600.
The Democrats may as well try something radical.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: You may dismiss it out of hand, Whembly, but the old rules no longer work, and the rulebook is likely to go out the window and be ran over by a Sherman tank, with Trump at 1600.
The Democrats may as well try something radical.
Although I don't think they should go as far as mass protests to shut down the country (unless there is adiquite reason, like attacks on the first amendment or some-such), I do think they should use the Gingrich tactic. Their number one goal should be to re-capture the Senate in 2020, and if scorched earth politics are what is required, than scorched earth politics is what it will be. Make Republican senators own every one of Trump's gakky decisions. Make them either defend him or refute him, not the wishy-washy "I don't support him, but I won;t denounce him" gak. And try to harness the anger to make gains in State governments.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Verviedi wrote: The difference being, Obama is not a muslim. There is ample proof that Pence puts his religion over the country.
Here are some objective facts. I know those don't matter anymore, but I choose to fight for reason. This is copy/pasted from an outside source.
In the three years since Pence took office, he:
Spoiler:
• Pushed through legislation making harsher penalties for drug crimes against the protests of numerous major legal organizations including the Indiana Bar Association, as well as most Hoosiers
• Inherited a phenomenal state balance sheet from Mitch Daniels and used it as an excuse to push tax cuts so extreme (would have caused a tremendous deficit) that the Republican-controlled Congress shut him down
• Tried and failed to amend the Indiana constitution to ban gay marriage, despite widespread polling that showed that Hoosiers didn't support it, and despite the vociferous condemnation of virtually every major business in the state
• Since his gay marriage amendment failed, he literally, as payback (not exaggerating, the signing ceremony was invite only, no media was allowed or invited, but someone leaked a picture that showed Pence surrounded by well-known anti-LGBT extremists), came back with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act which was a genuine political circus. It humiliated Indiana on the national stage, directly harmed Indianapolis, and was met with, perhaps, the fiercest backlash by the people of any state in the Union. The extraordinary protests of Hoosiers and businesses allowed the state GOP leaders to basically coerce--to his visible chagrin--Pence to amend the law and "fix it" (this was actually the front page of the biggest newspaper in Indiana).
• The RFRA was such a debacle that Pence ended up hiring an expensive out-of-state public relations firm to heal Indiana's national image. He couldn't answer why he chose an out-of-state firm. He couldn't answer why he chose such an expensive firm, when there are many firms in Indiana that could have done the job. It was eventually canceled, and was yet another waste of taxpayer money. To date, the RFRA has cost Indianapolis (a city that fought against it, changed the official tourism website to rainbow colors, and hung a huge rainbow banner at the airport) $60 million, and the total cost--to the economy and reputation--to the rest of the state is unknown.
• During the gay marriage supreme court fight, he literally sent the Indiana attorney general to other states to advise them on how to craft their laws and fight gay marriage nationally. He did this on the taxpayer dollar. He continued to spend taxpayer money fighting gay marriage in the courts and with lawsuits despite, at the time, everyone knowing what the Supreme Court decision was going to be. It was basically a political stand by Pence; an expensive political stand that Hoosiers didn't support.
• He fought to pass a law preventing cities from passing their own minimum wage statutes. Is this "small government"?
• He has acted like a strongman (think Turkey's Erdoğan), doing everything in his power to make Glenda Ritz, the state superintendent and an elected official, quit her job, and barring that, stripping her of the power given to her by the Indiana constitute and the Hoosiers that elected her through backroom deals, conspiracy, and highly technical legal challenges. Just Google "Mike Pence Glenda Ritz." You could write a thesis on it.
• Everyone, literally everyone, was on board for receiving a huge federal grant for preschool funding. The Indiana Department of Education was literally in the final stages of the application process--and the federal government was happy with Indiana and going to give us an especially large chunk of money--when Pence came in and shut it down for no reason because accepting money from the feds became politically untenable among the national GOP tea partier crowd. And, of course, you can't be elected president--Pence's eyes were always on the future--without support from the GOP's far right base. After shutting down the process, he has recently been opining that it would be a good idea to get federal money to fund preschools... A year after he gak all over the Dept of Education's proposal to do just that.
• The HIV epidemic in southern Indiana is out of control and among the worst in the country. Of course, we could provide free needles for heroin addicts like has been done in many states to curb HIV problems, but that is politically repugnant to Mike Pence. He also managed to get the Planned Parenthoods in that part of the state shut down, eliminating the opportunity for poor people to get tested. The HIV epidemic, which never had to be an epidemic, continues, and Pence gets to push the problem on our future governor as he goes to join Trump on the national stage.
• Speaking of Planned Parenthood, Pence is highly proud of his accomplishment at passing the single most restrictive abortion law since Roe vs Wade. The law, HEA 1337 is far stricter than anything even in the Deep South and is almost certainly unconstitutional. He knows that it's probably unconstitutional. Nevertheless, Indiana taxpayers will spend millions of dollars for our attorney general to fight the law all the way to the Supreme Court, just so Pence could make his political statement.
• He literally tried to make a state-run news agency that he would then give exclusive interviews and access to. I don't even know if that's legal, but he tried to do it and was promptly crucified by the media and even his own party.
• He asserted authority to ban Syrian refugees from being settled in Indiana. He has no authority. No governor has. He knew that, but he was planning to be a GOP presidential candidate, and he needed to show that he was strong and anti-Muslim refugee to appease the national GOP base. He took leadership role in this discriminatory crusade, appearing on national TV to preach his ignorance. This particular event managed to throw multiple refugee settlement organizations into disarray--which, by the way, actually include the Catholic Church of Indiana (the arch bishop of Indianapolis publicly criticized the governor)--and several Syrian refugees which were well into the process of moving to Indiana had to be relocated to another state. Pence didn't back down until the courts affirmed that his order was unconstitutional.
• He shut down a highly successful energy efficiency program--one of the first in the nation, making Indiana a trailblazer--initiated by the Indiana Utility Regulatory Commission with the support of previous governor Mitch Daniels. He did this for no good reason, other than to signal to his far-right constituents that he was fighting against Obama's evil despotic EPA.
Some very opinionated reportings on the facts.
Do you want me to respond? If so, please provide the link where you got this.
Beside, at cursory look, that's not an argument that he's a living, breathing theocrat.... it's just a listing of one-side rant against Pence.
Whem, one has proof, that Pence has theocratic tenancies (from his repeated attempts to put his own religion into law)
I get that his opposition from SSM is a thing AND is attempting to justify it because of his religious beliefs... but, that's not the same thing as he's a 'Theocrat'.
Words means something man...
and the other had no proof whatsoever, that Obama is a Secretmuslim™.
:shrugs:
Just look at his actions...
a) he defends Islam whenever he cans...
b) he ignores Christians...
c) he absolute despises Israel to almost toeing the anti-semitic line.
So, you can see why that is brought up. I disagree with it... as, I believe he only worships the tenets of statisms/liberalisms.
Also, you complain that what he posted is one-sided is hilarious.
He didnt' source the information, so I'm perfectly happy to consider it vaporware, as I'm too lazy to break it up and verify it.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: You may dismiss it out of hand, Whembly, but the old rules no longer work, and the rulebook is likely to go out the window and be ran over by a Sherman tank, with Trump at 1600.
The Democrats may as well try something radical.
Although I don't think they should go as far as mass protests to shut down the country (unless there is adiquite reason, like attacks on the first amendment or some-such), I do think they should use the Gingrich tactic. Their number one goal should be to re-capture the Senate in 2020, and if scorched earth politics are what is required, than scorched earth politics is what it will be. Make Republican senators own every one of Trump's gakky decisions. Make them either defend him or refute him, not the wishy-washy "I don't support him, but I won;t denounce him" gak. And try to harness the anger to make gains in State governments.
That might work...
But that's a tall order in the midterm as D's are defending quite a bit of seats in red states.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: You may dismiss it out of hand, Whembly, but the old rules no longer work, and the rulebook is likely to go out the window and be ran over by a Sherman tank, with Trump at 1600.
The Democrats may as well try something radical.
Although I don't think they should go as far as mass protests to shut down the country (unless there is adiquite reason, like attacks on the first amendment or some-such), I do think they should use the Gingrich tactic. Their number one goal should be to re-capture the Senate in 2020, and if scorched earth politics are what is required, than scorched earth politics is what it will be. Make Republican senators own every one of Trump's gakky decisions. Make them either defend him or refute him, not the wishy-washy "I don't support him, but I won;t denounce him" gak. And try to harness the anger to make gains in State governments.
I think Trump will be the Democrats greatest weapon. I think the American public will quickly tire of Trump booming down at them from twitter and whilst anything previously said can be dismissed as campaign talk, Trump will now have to make the hard decisions.
Candidate Obama and President Obama were miles apart, and I think the same thing will happen to Trump.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Vash108 wrote: What did he ignore christians about again?
O.o
ISIS systematic elimination of Christians and other religious and ethnic minorities in the Middle East. Obama and his administration has said/done anything.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: You may dismiss it out of hand, Whembly, but the old rules no longer work, and the rulebook is likely to go out the window and be ran over by a Sherman tank, with Trump at 1600.
The Democrats may as well try something radical.
Although I don't think they should go as far as mass protests to shut down the country (unless there is adiquite reason, like attacks on the first amendment or some-such), I do think they should use the Gingrich tactic. Their number one goal should be to re-capture the Senate in 2020, and if scorched earth politics are what is required, than scorched earth politics is what it will be. Make Republican senators own every one of Trump's gakky decisions. Make them either defend him or refute him, not the wishy-washy "I don't support him, but I won;t denounce him" gak. And try to harness the anger to make gains in State governments.
I think Trump will be the Democrats greatest weapon. I think the American public will quickly tire of Trump booming down at them from twitter and whilst anything previously said can be dismissed as campaign talk, Trump will now have to make the hard decisions.
Yup. Can't hide behind his predecessors or twittah.
Candidate Obama and President Obama were miles apart, and I think the same thing will happen to Trump.
Wait... you saying President Trump may not be this egotistical, misygonist, racist, anti-semtic donkey-cave? o.O
Care to wager something?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/01/03 18:10:40
Whembly, I was thinking more along the lines of things like giant walls, locking up Clinton, and trade wars with China, might hit the brick wall of cold, hard reality.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
I get that his opposition from SSM is a thing AND is attempting to justify it because of his religious beliefs... but, that's not the same thing as he's a 'Theocrat'.
He's trying to put his religion in law. I'm 95% sure that's the defonition of a theocrat.
:shrugs: Just look at his actions... a) he defends Islam whenever he cans...
You mean he doesn't lump all Muslims together and attack them? Golly-gee, I must be a Secretmuslim™ too.
b) he ignores Christians...
How does he ignore Christians? He's a christian himself.
c) he absolute despises Israel to almost toeing the anti-semitic line.
Whowhatnow? He hasn't just supported Israel blindly, and attacked some of their bad/illegal practices, but that's neither anti-semetic nor and indicator that someone is Muslim. And he's certainly no anti-Semite. Anti-Zionist, maybe, but he seems to still back Israel, just go after things it shouldn't be doing.
So, you can see why that is brought up. I disagree with it... as, I believe he only worships the tenets of statisms/liberalisms.
Statism! God, your turning into my pseudo-libertarian cousin.
He didnt' source the information, so I'm perfectly happy to consider it vaporware, as I'm too lazy to break it up and verify it.
And you also don't source most of what you say. Neither to I. Neither do most people on this forum. It's assumed that 95% of this stuff is a google away, so unless it's very specific, it's generally not sourced.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/01/03 18:27:01
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Vash108 wrote: What did he ignore christians about again?
O.o
ISIS systematic elimination of Christians and other religious and ethnic minorities in the Middle East. Obama and his administration has said/done anything.
The Egyptian Coptics...
fething Little Sisters of the Poor...
Need I go on?
So Within the United States... which our government has control of... how has he hurt christians, with the passing of any laws or discrimination.
Vash108 wrote: What did he ignore christians about again?
O.o
ISIS systematic elimination of Christians and other religious and ethnic minorities in the Middle East. Obama and his administration has said/done anything.
You mean, aside from reinsert US forces in the region (even if in a smaller scale than before), launch airstrikes agains ISIS and in direct support of freindly Iraqi and Kurdish ground forces against ISIS? There were no US aid drops to trapped Yazidi refugees or airstrikes in support of defending militia?
While there could potentially be more done, the idea that *nothing* has been done is a bit silly.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: Whembly, I was thinking more along the lines of things like giant walls, locking up Clinton, and trade wars with China, might hit the brick wall of cold, hard reality.
Ah...
-Giant walls ain't happening... the trick for the Trump administration is to somehow prove the he's an anti-illegal-immigration hawk. We'll see...
-Locking up Clinton ain't going to happen...I think people can be swayed since she lost, and is now essentially out of office, that's punishment enough (I think Trump alluded to that much). However, I'm still in the camp that a thorough investigation and proper accounting in all facets of her rogue email server and her foundation..
-As for trade wars with China... I can actually see that happening, and it's going to be massively disruptive.
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