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I did see one other thread about this but it was mostly arguing whether a unit with BS 0 could use psychic shriek and I couldn't find a clear answer.

Snap shot entry says abilities that don't use BS can't use snapshots. Witchfire entry says that to-hit rolls must be made. FAQ entry on page 1 adds the part where Shriek auto hits.

But only snap shots can be taken against invisible units. Shriek can't snap shot.

Having a disagreement with friends over this. I have a migraine and need help slogging through this one.

BS0 has no relevance for this argument.
BRB Snap Shots says, " Any shooting attack that does not use BS cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot."
FAQ says, "no To Hit roll is required - the attack hits automatically."

Unlike FMCs/Flyers "Hard to Hit" rule, Snap Shots doesn't say anything about auto-hitting. Compare those two wordings to see how GW could've easily stated this for SS but didn't.

So Psychic Shriek doesn't actually not use BS, it just doesn't require it.

Although...isn't there something about some GSC with BS0 who CAN use Psychic Shriek....

So does Psychic Shriek auto hit invisible units?

But yeh, snap shots makes them bs1, then shriek hits automatically anyway even after that modification.

PsycicSpaceElf wrote:
So does Psychic Shriek auto hit invisible units?

Shriek doesn't roll to hit so it can't snap shot. So it can't hit invisible units

 CrownAxe wrote:

PsycicSpaceElf wrote:
So does Psychic Shriek auto hit invisible units?

Shriek doesn't roll to hit so it can't snap shot. So it can't hit invisible units

Ding, Ding, we have a winner.

Shots that auto-hit cannot be resolved as snap-shots
Invisibility forces shooting attacks to be resolved as snap-shots
Ergo, Shriek cannot be resolved against an Invisible unit.

-

They're arguing that the 5th sentence of the first paragraph on Witchfires allows Psychic Shriek to be fired as a Snap Shot.

"Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in the same way as other shooting attacks"

So their argument seems to be that Psychic Shriek can make snap shots, which reduce the shooter's Ballistic Skill to 1, but that it always hits so it doesn't matter.

PsycicSpaceElf wrote:
They're arguing that the 5th sentence of the first paragraph on Witchfires allows Psychic Shriek to be fired as a Snap Shot.

"Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in the same way as other shooting attacks"

So their argument seems to be that Psychic Shriek can make snap shots, which reduce the shooter's Ballistic Skill to 1, but that it always hits so it doesn't matter.

The witchfires rules also say all witchfires must roll to hit and we aren't doing that with psychic shriek now are we?

I appreciate the replies.

The errata entry for psychic shriek is supposed to be placed after the 4th sentence in the first paragraph of the Witchfire entry. Right after the sentence where it says that witchfires have to roll to hit. The errata specifically states that Psychic Shriek does not roll to hit, but hits automatically.

it is a bit confusing that the rulebook seems to give permission for witchfires to snapshot.

That is the part that my friend is hung up on. If it can snap shot then it can be used against invisible units.

(Errata 2017 BRB)

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of
the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon
profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek);
where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically.’


(Witchfire entry BRB)

Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons.

The answer would be... yes. Psychic shriek can be used against invisible units and auto hits them. There is no need to roll

mchammadad wrote:
(Errata 2017 BRB)

Page 27 – The Psychic Phase, Witchfire
Add the following sentence after the fourth sentence of
the first paragraph:
‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon
profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek);
where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically.’


(Witchfire entry BRB)

Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons.

The answer would be... yes. Psychic shriek can be used against invisible units and auto hits them. There is no need to roll

None of what you said lets Shriek snap fire. Snap Fire's restriction on "can not shoot if you don't roll to hit" is still there. In fact your 2nd quote proves that it still follows normal snap fire rules because it makes snap shots in the same way as other shooting weapons.

Actually, couldn't you interpret the FAQ errata as saying Psychic Shriek bypasses shooting entirely? "No To-Hit roll is required" could just as easily mean "there is no shooting test". Then it's a moot point whether it can Snap Fire or not and it auto-hits the invisible unit.

Audustum wrote:
Actually, couldn't you interpret the FAQ errata as saying Psychic Shriek bypasses shooting entirely? "No To-Hit roll is required" could just as easily mean "there is no shooting test". Then it's a moot point whether it can Snap Fire or not and it auto-hits the invisible unit.

No, you couldn't. Since making a shooting attack has several steps, out of which hitting is only one step. You are still making a shooting attack which explicitly does not roll to hit.

Another rule prevents attacks that do not roll to hit to be used when only snap-shots can be used, ergo, you cannot use auto-hit to circumvent invisibility.

This was both a buff and a debuff to flying demon princes, no, you don't need to have a discussion and roll to hit on 2+ to shriek, but you won't be jinking while you do it.
Flipping this by having the target rather than the shooter force snap shots changes nothing.

(Witchfire Powers (BRB)

Witchfire
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when
shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and
cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a
witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically. Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons. Saves can be taken against Wounds from
witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack, and hits are allocated to the
closest target models to the Psyker.

Unlike firing a shooting weapon though, a Psyker can manifest several different witchfire
powers during the same phase (assuming he has enough Warp Charge) and each can
target a different unit if you so choose. Manifesting witchfire powers does not prevent the
Psyker (or his unit) from firing weapons in the following Shooting phase, nor does it
prevent the Psyker’s unit from Running, Turbo-boosting or moving Flat Out. A Psyker
who manifests a witchfire power can target a different unit with his other ranged weapons
in the Shooting phase. Witchfire powers cannot be used to make Overwatch
attacks.

There are several different sub-types of witchfire, each applying slightly different
targeting restrictions. If the witchfire does not list a sub-type, or simply describes itself as
a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the
following subtypes, use the rules for that sub-type

(FAQ ruling Starts here)

‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon
profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek);
where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically

The ENTIRE witchfire ruling is right here. Since this is not a blast, or a template or a overwatch attack it clearly states that you can use it even when firing snap shots AND because it does not have a profile it automatically hits

It's basically saying that, "This attack needs a roll of a 6 to hit, it automatically rolls a 6 to hit"

It is not a blast,or a template, it is not a sub type of witchfire (Nova,Beam,Focussed witchfire) and it has no profile, it hits the target automatically according to these very rules

"no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically "

If you do not make a hit roll,you do not use your BS, triggering the snap shot clause
" Any shooting attack that does not use BS cannot be 'fired' as a Snap Shot."

Trying very hard to explain why they are different things isn't working, because they aren't.

But you CAN make a To Hit roll. It's just not required.
And even if you do make the roll, it hits automatically, regardless of what the roll is.

This is the debate we've had pre-faq about what happens if you roll to hit with Shriek and miss. We decided that it didn't matter if you hit or miss, the effects still occur. Well now we've got that it just auto hits.

But you can still roll if you want, which means that BS is considered.

mchammadad wrote:
(Witchfire Powers (BRB)

Witchfire
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when
shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and
cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a
witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically. Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons. Saves can be taken against Wounds from
witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack, and hits are allocated to the
closest target models to the Psyker.

Unlike firing a shooting weapon though, a Psyker can manifest several different witchfire
powers during the same phase (assuming he has enough Warp Charge) and each can
target a different unit if you so choose. Manifesting witchfire powers does not prevent the
Psyker (or his unit) from firing weapons in the following Shooting phase, nor does it
prevent the Psyker’s unit from Running, Turbo-boosting or moving Flat Out. A Psyker
who manifests a witchfire power can target a different unit with his other ranged weapons
in the Shooting phase. Witchfire powers cannot be used to make Overwatch
attacks.

There are several different sub-types of witchfire, each applying slightly different
targeting restrictions. If the witchfire does not list a sub-type, or simply describes itself as
a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the
following subtypes, use the rules for that sub-type

(FAQ ruling Starts here)

‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon
profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek);
where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically

The ENTIRE witchfire ruling is right here. Since this is not a blast, or a template or a overwatch attack it clearly states that you can use it even when firing snap shots AND because it does not have a profile it automatically hits

It's basically saying that, "This attack needs a roll of a 6 to hit, it automatically rolls a 6 to hit"

It is not a blast,or a template, it is not a sub type of witchfire (Nova,Beam,Focussed witchfire) and it has no profile, it hits the target automatically according to these very rules

Go find the snap shooting rules. Those will add on to your knowledge posted above. If an attack does not actually roll to-hit, such as a blast weapon (or Psychic Shriek, for example), then it can not be snap fired. You're ignoring the fact that it's still a shooting attack as a result of being a witchfire and thus still follows rules for shooting attacks except where explicitly noted otherwise. It hits automatically but is still never anywhere given permission to snap fire.

Rules like 'Invis', 'Hard to Hit' and 'Jink' force any shooting attack to be resolved as Snap-shots.
Shooting attacks that auto-hit cannot be resolved in this manner and will auto-fail.

It is that simple.
Shriek is a shooting attack that auto-hits. If anything forces it to be resolved as snap-shots (see above) it cannot be resolved at all.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
But you CAN make a To Hit roll. It's just not required.
And even if you do make the roll, it hits automatically, regardless of what the roll is.

This is the debate we've had pre-faq about what happens if you roll to hit with Shriek and miss. We decided that it didn't matter if you hit or miss, the effects still occur. Well now we've got that it just auto hits.

But you can still roll if you want, which means that BS is considered.

Even if this were the case (most would say it isn't) the fact that Shriek now has the "auto-hit" verbiage means that the "cannot be resolved as snap-shots" comes into play.
So go ahead and roll that dice that doesn't matter. It still auto-hits and thus cannot be resolved against rules that force snap-shots.

-

Snap Shots (BRB)

Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire
‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap
Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when
units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that
specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may
only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special
rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at
Ballistic Skill 1.

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1.

Witchfire powers still count as balistic skill 1 (Unless the model has BS 0) Psychic shriek is an auto hit shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

There, instead of speculating the rules. I actually print the full rule so i cant be disputed

So.... please.... enlighten me.... where does it say in here that an ability that still uses BS and auto hits can't be used in snap shots

 Galef wrote:
Rules like 'Invis', 'Hard to Hit' and 'Jink' force any shooting attack to be resolved as Snap-shots.
Shooting attacks that auto-hit cannot be resolved in this manner and will auto-fail.

It is that simple.
Shriek is a shooting attack that auto-hits. If anything forces it to be resolved as snap-shots (see above) it cannot be resolved at all.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
But you CAN make a To Hit roll. It's just not required.
And even if you do make the roll, it hits automatically, regardless of what the roll is.

This is the debate we've had pre-faq about what happens if you roll to hit with Shriek and miss. We decided that it didn't matter if you hit or miss, the effects still occur. Well now we've got that it just auto hits.

But you can still roll if you want, which means that BS is considered.

Even if this were the case (most would say it isn't) the fact that Shriek now has the "auto-hit" verbiage means that the "cannot be resolved as snap-shots" comes into play.
So go ahead and roll that dice that doesn't matter. It still auto-hits and thus cannot be resolved against rules that force snap-shots.

-

I'll have to get the wording, but wouldn't this mean Nova powers also can't hit invisible? I think they also read that they "automatically hit".

From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: How does the Invisibility psychic power work in relation to nova and beam powers, and Template and Blast weapons not initially targeting the invisible unit?

A: You cannot choose to target an invisible unit with such attacks, but should models from the unit end up beneath the template, marker or line of fire, then they can be hit using the normal rules. The invisible unit would be hit if it was on the line of a beam, if it was in the range of a nova, or if a blast ended up being scattered onto it. For Template weapons, as long as you follow the rules – ensuring that the template ‘covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly units’ – then if the invisible unit was also fully or partially under the template, it would be hit.

mchammadad wrote:
Snap Shots (BRB)

Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire
‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap
Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when
units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that
specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may
only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special
rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at
Ballistic Skill 1.

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1.

Witchfire powers still count as balistic skill 1 (Unless the model has BS 0) Psychic shriek is an auto hit shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

There, instead of speculating the rules. I actually print the full rule so i cant be disputed

So.... please.... enlighten me.... where does it say in here that an ability that still uses BS and auto hits can't be used in snap shots

The amazing thing is you proved yourself wrong and didn't even see it.

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Psychic Shriek, although a shooting attack, does not use Ballistic Skill. It never has. Hence the BS0 model that can still cast it, though would not be able to use any shooting attacks that use BS.

Witchfire powers still count as balistic skill 1 (Unless the model has BS 0) Psychic shriek is an auto hit shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

Witchfire powers don't "count as ballistic skill" anything. You use the BS value on the models datasheet. Except in the case of witchfires that hit automatically. Which can not be snap shot.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Main Rulebook FAQ:

Q: How does the Invisibility psychic power work in relation to nova and beam powers, and Template and Blast weapons not initially targeting the invisible unit?

A: You cannot choose to target an invisible unit with such attacks, but should models from the unit end up beneath the template, marker or line of fire, then they can be hit using the normal rules. The invisible unit would be hit if it was on the line of a beam, if it was in the range of a nova, or if a blast ended up being scattered onto it. For Template weapons, as long as you follow the rules – ensuring that the template ‘covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly units’ – then if the invisible unit was also fully or partially under the template, it would be hit.

Maybe it's just from reading briefs that has me doing this, but the "automatically hits" language shows up identically for Novas and the FAQ answer for Psychic Shriek. Main rulebook for Novas:

A nova power automatically targets and hits all enemy units...

The FAQ on Psychic Shriek:

However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon profile...no To Hit roll is required - the attack hits automatically.

In law, there is a legal principle, adopted by the Rhenquist Court, that states: "interpret the same or similar terms in a statute the same way". This comes from old common law. I don't see why the same reasoning that makes it true from a legal jurist standpoint doesn't work here.

In this case, the legislature (GW) made a statute (rule). They then made an amendment (FAQ). In the rule and the FAQ they say the exact same thing: "the attack hits automatically". We shouldn't apply inconsistent definitions for this. If Novas, which are a sub-classification of Witchfires, hit then profile-less Witchfires should also hit since they are explained as operating the same way with the same terms.

In other words, it's a definition by analogy: is Psychic Shriek more like a Nova or more like a Flamer? It's pretty obvious it's more like a Nova. The Nova interpretation should be our guide and not the Flamer.

Is Psychic Shriek described as a Nova in its description? If not, then its not a Nova.

 Ghaz wrote:
Is Psychic Shriek described as a Nova in its description? If not, then its not a Nova.

I wasn't saying it was, but we have a situation where we want to apply a rule to Psychic Shriek that doesn't specifically mention Psychic Shriek or its class. Thus, we have to analogize it to something else: Nova or Flamer (Template weapon). It's not either, but what is it more like? Since identical wording is used in the BRB and FAQ, I'd say it's more like a Nova than a Flamer.

Audustum wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Is Psychic Shriek described as a Nova in its description? If not, then its not a Nova.

I wasn't saying it was, but we have a situation where we want to apply a rule to Psychic Shriek that doesn't specifically mention Psychic Shriek or its class. Thus, we have to analogize it to something else: Nova or Flamer (Template weapon). It's not either, but what is it more like? Since identical wording is used in the BRB and FAQ, I'd say it's more like a Nova than a Flamer.

Wouldn't matter either way though since like is not the same as. The rules and/or FAQs specified a situation in which novas or templates could hit invisible but no such rule exists for Psychic Shriek. That means it is subject to normal rules which state simply and clearly that shooting attacks that do not use BS cannot be fired as snap shots.

mchammadad wrote:(Witchfire Powers (BRB)

Witchfire
Witchfire powers are shooting attacks. Indeed, they are often referred to as psychic
shooting attacks, and many have profiles similar to ranged weapons. Just like when
shooting a weapon, a Psyker must be able to see the target unit (or target point) and
cannot be locked in combat if he wishes to manifest a witchfire power. Similarly, a
witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically. Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons. Saves can be taken against Wounds from
witchfire in the same way as for any other shooting attack, and hits are allocated to the
closest target models to the Psyker.

Unlike firing a shooting weapon though, a Psyker can manifest several different witchfire
powers during the same phase (assuming he has enough Warp Charge) and each can
target a different unit if you so choose. Manifesting witchfire powers does not prevent the
Psyker (or his unit) from firing weapons in the following Shooting phase, nor does it
prevent the Psyker’s unit from Running, Turbo-boosting or moving Flat Out. A Psyker
who manifests a witchfire power can target a different unit with his other ranged weapons
in the Shooting phase. Witchfire powers cannot be used to make Overwatch
attacks.

There are several different sub-types of witchfire, each applying slightly different
targeting restrictions. If the witchfire does not list a sub-type, or simply describes itself as
a psychic shooting attack, use the rules given above to resolve it. If it has one of the
following subtypes, use the rules for that sub-type

(FAQ ruling Starts here)

‘However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon
profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek);
where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically

The ENTIRE witchfire ruling is right here. Since this is not a blast, or a template or a overwatch attack it clearly states that you can use it even when firing snap shots AND because it does not have a profile it automatically hits

It's basically saying that, "This attack needs a roll of a 6 to hit, it automatically rolls a 6 to hit"

It is not a blast,or a template, it is not a sub type of witchfire (Nova,Beam,Focussed witchfire) and it has no profile, it hits the target automatically according to these very rules

mchammadad wrote:Snap Shots (BRB)

Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire
‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap
Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when
units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that
specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may
only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special
rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at
Ballistic Skill 1.

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1.

Witchfire powers still count as balistic skill 1 (Unless the model has BS 0) Psychic shriek is an auto hit shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

There, instead of speculating the rules. I actually print the full rule so i cant be disputed

So.... please.... enlighten me.... where does it say in here that an ability that still uses BS and auto hits can't be used in snap shots

Jacksmiles wrote:

mchammadad wrote:
Snap Shots (BRB)

Under specific circumstances, models must fire Snap Shots – opportunistic bursts of fire
‘snapped’ off in the general direction of the target. The most common occurrences of Snap
Shots are when models with Heavy weapons move and shoot in the same turn or when
units make Overwatch shots. If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than
shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of
those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot).

The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that
specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, along with any other restrictions (some may
only modify Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch Snap Shots, for example). If a special
rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at
Ballistic Skill 1.

Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1.

Witchfire powers still count as balistic skill 1 (Unless the model has BS 0) Psychic shriek is an auto hit shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

There, instead of speculating the rules. I actually print the full rule so i cant be disputed

So.... please.... enlighten me.... where does it say in here that an ability that still uses BS and auto hits can't be used in snap shots

The amazing thing is you proved yourself wrong and didn't even see it.

In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot.

Psychic Shriek, although a shooting attack, does not use Ballistic Skill. It never has. Hence the BS0 model that can still cast it, though would not be able to use any shooting attacks that use BS.

Witchfire powers still count as balistic skill 1 (Unless the model has BS 0) Psychic shriek is an auto hit shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

Witchfire powers don't "count as ballistic skill" anything. You use the BS value on the models datasheet. Except in the case of witchfires that hit automatically. Which can not be snap shot.

Lets break this down shall we?

A Psyker uses their own BS to use a witchfire - Check

A witchfire cannot be used in either Overwatch or if it is either a template of Blast (Because of the Snap shot rule)

"Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordnance, or those that have certain special
rules, such as Blast, cannot be fired as Snap Shots. In addition, any shooting attack that
does not use Ballistic Skill cannot be ‘fired’ as a Snap Shot. These exceptions aside, Snap
Shots are treated in the same manner as any other shooting attack made with a Ballistic
Skill of 1."

A Snap shot (unless there is another rule that expresses that it Overrides snap shots) cannot fire if it is a template, Blast or does NOT use a BS


"If a special rule doesn’t specifically state that it affects Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at
Ballistic Skill 1." This means that a witchfire is resolved at BS 1 unless the power in question has a statement that doesn't make it resolve at BS 1

" Similarly, a witchfire power must roll To Hit, unless it is has the Blast special rule, in which case it
scatters as described in the Blast special rule, or it is a Template weapon, which hit
automatically. Psykers can make Snap Shots in the Psychic phase with witchfire powers in
the same way as with other shooting weapons."

This states that witchfire powers CAN fire snap shots, but must follow the rules outlined in snap shots - in this case it must not be:

- a blast,template or a shooting that doesn't use a BS (Note that there, BS not 'Roll to hit')

Then we come to the main part:

"However, some witchfire powers do not have a weapon
profile (such as the Telepathy power, Psychic Shriek);
where this is the case, no To Hit roll is required – the
attack hits automatically"

This is the main nail for this entire thing, It does NOT state any rule that effects Snap Shots, is not a Template or Blast so is resolved at BS 1

This means it is perfectly legal under the rules for Snap shots as it is a shooting attack that is resolved at BS 1

The auto hit is redundant in this argument because nowhere in the rules does it state that it needs to roll to hit for snap shots, ONLY that it has a BS and is not a template of Blast or has a ruling that says it cannot snap shot

a psyker (unless they are BS 0) resolves and witchfire attacks at a BS of 1 unless it has a rule that says otherwise, in the case of psychic shriek it is resolved at BS 1 but is an automatic 6, no roll is required

I never proved myself wrong, it is plainly put right here for everyone.

The rules speak for themselves

If it is not rolling to hit in what way is Psychic Shriek using BS? At no point in the resolution of that ability do you ever look at or apply the BS. That is pretty much definition of not used.

just because it's not used doesn't mean it isn't there

just because a person uses a flamethrower doesn't mean he has no BS

mchammadad wrote:
just because it's not used doesn't mean it isn't there

just because a person uses a flamethrower doesn't mean he has no BS

Irrelevant. The rule says shooting attacks that don't use BS can't be fired as snap shots, nothing about whether the model has BS. No roll to hit, no use of BS, no snap shot.