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The average Scion started training before the average Scout. For the rest I am not sure enough numbers were given.

 Bobthehero wrote:
The average Scion started training before the average Scout. For the rest I am not sure enough numbers were given.

Well since most Scouts start spend their early life on deathworlds on in gangs, you could argue they've always been training compared to a Scions pampered military school upbringing.

Scion training starts when they're found, some will train at 4-5 some at around the age someone becomes a Scout. Older ons might be possible, but at this point they're hardly orphans.

And the Schola is anything but pampering.

Scouts are as young as 18 years old, sometime 16 years old. The average Space Marines start is recruited at age 12 (the prime age for Geneseed Implantation which ends with the Black Carapace at age 18), passes a few years in tank being implanted organs and adapting to them, receives basic military instruction learn how to speak High Gothic, read and write in the case of those who come from feral, feudal world and lower hive. Considering that Space Marines love to recruit there, that represents most of them.

Scions start their training at age 6 and finish it at age 22. The youngest Scion has about 16 years of military training and instruction while the youngest Scout has 6. That's a huge difference in terms of quality of training.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Plasma pistols are 15pts for astartes, they maybe be 10pts for guard but guard are only BS3.
It's also a bit more than double damage, instant deathing marines can be pretty significant.
The blood angels have a 25pt relic plasma pistol and it all it does is remove gets hot.

I still really don't think you should be having army-wide scout, you're storm troopers not stealth troopers. And I especially disagree with stacking it.

I will change the price for 25 pts since Instant Death on T4 is indeed rvery good, but I would say that the Relic of the Blood Angel is pure crap that nobody in his right mind would use .10 pts for no Get's Hot is completly overcosted in my opinion.

The stacking of stealth to shrouded to stealth AND shrouded is a core mechanic of those Special Rules. For example, if you take a Tempestus Scion squad beneath the Umbra Mobile Shield Generator, they will have a 4+ cover save in plain sight. That's how the core rule book says those two special rules should interract. They are stackable.

kirotheavenger wrote:Plasma pistols are 15pts for astartes, they maybe be 10pts for guard but guard are only BS3.
It's also a bit more than double damage, instant deathing marines can be pretty significant.
The blood angels have a 25pt relic plasma pistol and it all it does is remove gets hot.

I still really don't think you should be having army-wide scout, you're storm troopers not stealth troopers. And I especially disagree with stacking it.

Absolutely this. You're getting essentially two +1S plasma pistols for an absolute steal. 25 points is far more solid.

I'd also err on another five points for the relic sword - you're getting just under the strength of a power fist, at initiative AP2 (which is on average Space Marine tier), the fact it's two handed affects it little, because if it were a power fist, it wouldn't get another attack anyway (no other specialist weapons). I'm getting an at initiative power fist swapping a pip of strength for master crafted. If we assume that the master crafted cancels out the pip of strength lost, I think it's reasonable to say that at initiative AP2 is more than 5 points.

epronovost wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Heart of the Sun heirloom.
For 5pts more than a plasma pistol it doubles the firerate and adds one strength?

I would advice against comparing anything to Eldar. The codex known for being almost universally above the power curve.

Also I'm not sure if I've addressed this before, but most of your army still has stealth
Your Insidias Scions even have Shrouded. I know you want to represent the stealthy aspect the Scions can take on occasionally, but that isn't how other units work it. Space Marine scouts don't get stealth, they get infiltrate. And stacking stealth and a camocloak onto a model to get shrouded is just insane, that's like Tau's apparently-invisible stealth suits levels of hiding.

Stealth suits have both Shrouded and Stealth for a basic 4+ cover save. That's almost invisible. Shrouded is very, very stealthy.

Space Marines Scouts don't have stealth because they are rookies and, as rule, the Adeptus Astartes doesn't consider reconnaissance and stealth as important. That's why this duty, which is given to specialists and veterans in all other armies in the 40K universe and in our own universe because its so god damn important, is given to the worst Space Marine imaginable. Only Space Wolves and the Raven Guard and their descendants seems to view stealth and scouting as important and, in the case of the Raven Guard, their scout do have stealth (and so do their Space Marines). It's the same thing for the Night Lords who also have stealth.

Ork Kommandos all have the Stealth rule in addition to Infiltrate and Move Through Cover including their Nob. They don't have anything close like a Camocloak. If orks can be this stealthy, why not humans who trained extansively in covert operation like ork kommando do?

Comparing regular Scout Space Marines to Scions would like comparing them to Imperial Guardsmen. Both are not as heavily trained as a full feldge Scion since one is still in training (perhapse not even adults in some country, much larger, heavier and smellier which makes them a lot less discrete) and the other is just a regular G.I Joe. Scions are not ment to be "occasionnaly stealthy" its the other way around. They are "occasionnaly" brazen. Thus, for all these reasons, the Stealth Rule will remain.

I disagree.
Scouts are not rookies - hell, they have a better WS and equal BS to your Scions. Not to mention their augments, and selection process. Read some of the Scout entires as to their typical capabilities and missions - you'll find that they are more than capable of stealth missions. Now, even if the regular Scouts wouldn't what about the dedicated Scout Sergeants who train them and do said stealth operations? No stealth.

I'd be wary of saying the Adeptus Astartes doesn't think stealth is important. The Raven Guard, Ultramarines (Vigil Opertii), Raptors, even the Codex would disagree. Stealth has it's place for the Astartes. However, it is often passed over in place of a shock and awe strike - something also exhibited in Scion lore. And yes, Raven Guard have it, but that's across the Chapter - not specifically on their stealth units.

If Ork Kommandoes get stealth, then why not Space Marine Scouts? There's no reason Scions should get stealth over actual stealth dedicated units, when Scions show more sign of being a shock and awe army rather than a stealthy one. Everything, from their armour, weapons, tactics, wargear highlight them not as a stealth force, but as a rapid strike one. Scions are far more brazen than stealthy. And both basic Scions and Scouts are comparable in ability.

epronovost wrote:Scouts are as young as 18 years old, sometime 16 years old. The average Space Marines start is recruited at age 12 (the prime age for Geneseed Implantation which ends with the Black Carapace at age 18), passes a few years in tank being implanted organs and adapting to them, receives basic military instruction learn how to speak High Gothic, read and write in the case of those who come from feral, feudal world and lower hive. Considering that Space Marines love to recruit there, that represents most of them.

Scions start their training at age 6 and finish it at age 22. The youngest Scion has about 16 years of military training and instruction while the youngest Scout has 6. That's a huge difference in terms of quality of training.

Not quite. A Space Marine is often taken from actual Death Worlds. As such, they are already being trained.
A Scion has to be orphaned first, and as you say, start training at 6. Already, Space Marine has a lead of 6 years.

Space Marine must then attract the favour of the recruiters, and be taken in, usually requiring a feat of incredible skill. This is typically before puberty, around 12 years.
Scions continue their training regardless.

Both are given hypnotherapy, to educate and indoctrinate them. Due to the enhanced cognitive abilities of Astartes, it is reasonable to assume that they can learn very quickly and more. Scions are not as mentally capable.

A Space Marine can spend decades as a Scout. They have a far longer term of service than a normal Scion.
It's not fair to say that a Scout is lesser than a Scion. Not to knock Scion training, but it's no more intense than Space Marine training.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
Plasma pistols are 15pts for astartes, they maybe be 10pts for guard but guard are only BS3.
It's also a bit more than double damage, instant deathing marines can be pretty significant.
The blood angels have a 25pt relic plasma pistol and it all it does is remove gets hot.

I still really don't think you should be having army-wide scout, you're storm troopers not stealth troopers. And I especially disagree with stacking it.

I will change the price for 25 pts since Instant Death on T4 is indeed rvery good, but I would say that the Relic of the Blood Angel is pure crap that nobody in his right mind would use .10 pts for no Get's Hot is completly overcosted in my opinion.

The stacking of stealth to shrouded to stealth AND shrouded is a core mechanic of those Special Rules. For example, if you take a Tempestus Scion squad beneath the Umbra Mobile Shield Generator, they will have a 4+ cover save in plain sight. That's how the core rule book says those two special rules should interract. They are stackable.

Yes, but having Stealth on SHOCK troops is the issue. They are not stealthy. They're a hard hitting, rapid movement force, relying on close ranged firepower and skill to take out their enemy. Not a bunch of expert stealthers somehow clad in some of the best and heaviest armour available to mortal men.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Absolutely this. You're getting essentially two +1S plasma pistols for an absolute steal. 25 points is far more solid.

I'd also err on another five points for the relic sword - you're getting just under the strength of a power fist, at initiative AP2 (which is on average Space Marine tier), the fact it's two handed affects it little, because if it were a power fist, it wouldn't get another attack anyway (no other specialist weapons). I'm getting an at initiative power fist swapping a pip of strength for master crafted. If we assume that the master crafted cancels out the pip of strength lost, I think it's reasonable to say that at initiative AP2 is more than 5 points.

I indeed changed the Heart of the Sun for 25 pts. It's indeed a better price.

For the Blade of Terra, I would say that 20 pts is a relatively fair price. At S5 you can't instant kill anybody (except my Gretchin HQ, but that doesn't count). It doesn count for a lot in my opinion. Striking at Initiative 4 isn't such a great advantage. Most HQ or good close combat unit strike simultaniously or faster. Those who don't usualy have a T5 or even more. The Initiative malus of the Power Fist isn't an as important malus on a Tempestor Prime or a Commissar Lord than on a Space Marine Captain for example. I would rather knock out the special rule Mastercraft than drop the price. The Blade of Terra is already superior to a "traditionnal" Two-Handed Power Sword which have a S+1, AP:2 stat line anyway.

PS: I changed the price.

Your Shock Sword is still too powerful. It's definitely not 5 points worse than a Power Maul.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Your Shock Sword is still too powerful. It's definitely not 5 points worse than a Power Maul.

How about 7?

I'd actually lean towards making it S+1 instead.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd actually lean towards making it S+1 instead.

After play testing the Armis Scions, they would struggle with strength 4 while strength 5 gives them a bit of a fighting chance (those weapons were S+1 for a few days). It's especially true against orks. Scions are really bad against horde units like them and being capable of holding them off with a squad of Armis Scion is really helpful to relieve some pressure around objectives.

...

So you noticed a weakness, and instead of accepting "Yeah, this is an elite army of GEQs, so they will have some bad matchups," you decided to buff them to make them have no weaknesses?

 JNAProductions wrote:
...

So you noticed a weakness, and instead of accepting "Yeah, this is an elite army of GEQs, so they will have some bad matchups," you decided to buff them to make them have no weaknesses?

An army shouldn't loose simply because it faces another one. A good codex should give you tools to fight on a somewhat even ground against all other armies else why even play the game. You will still have strength and weakness, but you will have chances of winning against every other army. Armis Scions aren't rolling orks at all. Even with Armis Scions, you would be stupid not to notice that this army is especially good against elite army with low model count like Craftworld Eldars, Sisters of Battle, Tau and Space Marines (but far from unbeatable by any of them due to the low strength of their guns and small numbers). They are much worst against Orks, Tyranids (if they don't go Nidzilla), Guards, Dark Eldar and Skitarii (their worst matchup in my opinion). Armis Scions are holding up at the price of not having as much firepower. They provide tools to fight in a different way and, if you list tailor around them and the Hoplite Formation, present a very different sort of Scion army that can take some by surprise and gives an opportunity to make an army of something else than Aer Scion Bomb + aircrafts. If you make them S4, you will never take them over Aer Scions and especially Ignis Scions, with which they are in direct competition, and are already more tempting then them in most cases. "Bad matchups" at a fundamental level (AKA my codex has no tools to help me fight on a somewhat even ground against another codex) is probably the most discussed problem in 40K as we speak.

I don't know what two-handed swords you're looking at but Blood Angel's have two-handed swords that just get mastercrafted.
We have a 20pt relic for a standard AP2 power sword. Which is btw considered one of our only 2 relics (the rest are total bollocks, such as a safety first plasma pistol for 25pts...)

I meant stacking stealth as in giving Insidious Scions stealth AND a camocloak to get shrouded, no other dedicated stealth unit in the game reaches that point, except maybe Eldar Rangers. But those probably have more time training and the oldest astartes, let alone a human.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I don't know what two-handed swords you're looking at but Blood Angel's have two-handed swords that just get mastercrafted.
We have a 20pt relic for a standard AP2 power sword. Which is btw considered one of our only 2 relics (the rest are total bollocks, such as a safety first plasma pistol for 25pts...)

I meant stacking stealth as in giving Insidious Scions stealth AND a camocloak to get shrouded, no other dedicated stealth unit in the game reaches that point, except maybe Eldar Rangers. But those probably have more time training and the oldest astartes, let alone a human.

Eldar rangers do indeed have shrouded thanks to the same shenanigan of stacking stealth and a camo-cloak to get shrouded (Catashan snipers used to have something like that too, but only in jungles and wood terrain and without camocloak). Usualy, eldar rangers are teenagers who don't want to follow the Path because it's long, borring and tedious by design very few of them, the Pathfinders, are dedicated to being rangers for more than a few decades.

The two-handed sword that gives +1 S and AP 2 is the Klaive or the Archite Glaive (Dark Eldar stuff). The Executionner Great Blade of the Sister of Silence is also S +1 and AP 2. These are none artifact level two-handed Power Swords. I did removed the Mastercrafted, but kept the price at 20 pts.

epronovost wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Absolutely this. You're getting essentially two +1S plasma pistols for an absolute steal. 25 points is far more solid.

I'd also err on another five points for the relic sword - you're getting just under the strength of a power fist, at initiative AP2 (which is on average Space Marine tier), the fact it's two handed affects it little, because if it were a power fist, it wouldn't get another attack anyway (no other specialist weapons). I'm getting an at initiative power fist swapping a pip of strength for master crafted. If we assume that the master crafted cancels out the pip of strength lost, I think it's reasonable to say that at initiative AP2 is more than 5 points.

I indeed changed the Heart of the Sun for 25 pts. It's indeed a better price.

For the Blade of Terra, I would say that 20 pts is a relatively fair price. At S5 you can't instant kill anybody (except my Gretchin HQ, but that doesn't count). It doesn count for a lot in my opinion. Striking at Initiative 4 isn't such a great advantage. Most HQ or good close combat unit strike simultaniously or faster. Those who don't usualy have a T5 or even more. The Initiative malus of the Power Fist isn't an as important malus on a Tempestor Prime or a Commissar Lord than on a Space Marine Captain for example. I would rather knock out the special rule Mastercraft than drop the price. The Blade of Terra is already superior to a "traditionnal" Two-Handed Power Sword which have a S+1, AP:2 stat line anyway.

PS: I changed the price.

Let's compare the sword to the fist:
Sword is S5, AP2, and Master crafted. It can't get another attack because of Two Handed. 20 pts.
Fist is S6, AP, Unwieldy. It can't get another attack cause there's no other Specialist Weapons in the Codex. 15 points.
For five points, you replace a point of strength (which, whilst causing ID, only does so to GEQ or Eldar models, who would either have a higher initiative anyway, or also be using a fist of some kind) for master crafted, and ignore Unwieldy for five. If your initiative was very low, 2 perhaps, I'd say five points is fine. But your initiative is 4, and that's equal to the majority of Space Marines, the majority of GEQ, who are wounded on 2+ still, better than Orks, Necrons, etc etc. You have a decent weapon skill, even better on the Lord Commissar, to actually make use of it, with mastercrafted helping a lot.

Even the Blood Angels one only allows for the player to ignore Unwieldy. No strength buffs, no master crafted, and that's the same price as what you're paying now. I understand you want the "zomg AP2 at initiative" relic, but as it is, there's no reason for me ever to take a power fist as this relic remains, unless my character has already bought a relic (the rest of which I think are fairly priced). Take a look at one of the guard relics - they get a S+2 AP3 sword for the same as a power fist. Your guys get an extra point of AP2, and master crafted (master crafted alone is 5 points, as we see from codex: grey knights and Inquisition.)
I'd make it less of an auto take, because this weapon does have potential to be very effective - dropping the strength by one or upping the price by five would be fine.

I've been think of a way to revoncile the stealth thing, because you currently have an army of highly trained specialist stealth storm troopers.
You could give everyone doctrines, either as an upgrade like Guard vets or one for free like Smurf chapter tactics.
These could be like get stealth, melta bombs or deepstrike.
This would allow you to represent the type of missions the scions are on.
Although I'm not a fan of this as this is kind of what formations do (hint hint)

Also I'm generally not a fan of Ignis Scions, you say they're a bit like Sternguard but firstly Scions are pretty much an army of veterans (you're like what deathwatch are to space marines imo) and you can't really a sternguard like unit since since lasguns don't have ammunition
Perhaps you could replace them with a special weapons team of some sort, still using the veterans statline if you like (+1 attack and leadership) but say a 6man team with 3 special weapons, or even like the D-99 which I believe get 5 man squads with 5 special weapons.

.

@Sgt_Smudge

Considering that I already removed Mastercrafted, I would say that S: +2, AP: 2 Two-Handed Sword for 20 pts is pretty reasonnable. S:+1, AP: 2 Two Handed Sword for 20 pts appears to me a bit weak, especially on a Tempestor Prime or Commissar Lord. But if you do think its too much, I will augment the price at 25 pts, but retain the S+2

@Kirotheavenger

There is already a form of Special Weapon Squad in the Command Squad of Tempestus Scions. It's a five man squad with the option for up to four special weapons. They also have slightly better stats than regular Scions (one more WS and I).

Ignis Scions, were pretty much exactly like Sternguard, instead of having different special ammo though they have combi-weapons and a few extra grenades and special equipment. Now that they have shifted to Specialised squad with some point requirements at your request, they are now either Sternguard, Vanguard and Techmarine. I can't say I am that satisfied with them right now. They appear a bit too much like the Swiss Knife of the army.

BTW, the very first formation does a bit that by allowing Infiltration to replace Deep Strike. But no matter what, Stealth remains.

The last idea I flirted about universal Stealth on Scion would be to replace Universal Stealth for a Special Rule called Ambush that provides the same bonus should the unit not have moved during their movement phase. I decided to drop it since it would make no difference for Insidias Scions while pretty much all other Scions would almost never benefit from it due to the range of their weapons that forces them to move all the time to stay alive and doing their job. Stealth is one of the most important aspect of this army for two reasons:

1) Scions are a black op. army. They move fast, in utter silence and strike with precision. They are the polar opposite the Astra Millitarum in terms of speed and application of firepower. They are extremely offensive, unlike Sister of Battle who are defensive troops designed to block and push back the enemy's hordes. Unlike Space Marines who are brutal and fast, the Shock Troopers of the Imperium, they can't attack in a good old fashion of shock and awe tactic an enemy strong point because their armor (and bodies) are too weak, their firepower too low and specialised. The Imperium forces are multiple branches that complement each others. Scions, to exist, must do things that no other armed group in the Imperium can do as well as them. Space Marines cannot hold battlefronts of hundreds of kilometers because they aren't numerous enough and don't have enough heavy tanks and artillery. They are too mobile to serves as a shield like Sisters of Battle, neither do they have the number to make a deep system of defense (with the possible exception of Salamanders and Immperial Fist). They are too large and noisy because of their armors and weapons to make good black op troops (with the exception of the Raven Guard and successor of course). Stealth is thus mandatory to represent a specialisation that Space Marines and Sisters don't have. Without it, they are nothing more than Marines in weak armor, no toughess or strength, relatively low and specialised firepower and worse Deep Striking since they don't hanve Drop Pods.

2) Scions have average at beast resistence thanks to 4+ armor save and T3. They are also costing quite a bit. A regular Tempestus Scion cost almost as much as a Space Marine. The firepower needed to wash them of the board is far from being imposing. Stealth allows them to Deep Strike in terrain safely thanks to Move Through Cover and use it at full efficiency thanks to Stealth. It gives them a much needed little boost to their resistence. It also allows them to use Deep Strike, not only as a delivery system for some special weapons in a suicidal manner, but also as a positioning method by unsing the specificity of the board to change battlefield condition and doing it in such a fashion that a stiff output of small arm firepower will destroy them.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Considering that I already removed Mastercrafted, I would say that S: +2, AP: 2 Two-Handed Sword for 20 pts is pretty reasonnable. S:+1, AP: 2 Two Handed Sword for 20 pts appears to me a bit weak, especially on a Tempestor Prime or Commissar Lord. But if you do think its too much, I will augment the price at 25 pts, but retain the S+2

The issue is less the Mastercrafted, and more the AP2 at Initiative. If your initiative was very low, like 2 or 3, I wouldn't be too bothered, but seeing as you're now going at the same time as the "elite" armies, ie Space Marines and Eldar, it does have a marked advantage.

You are able to ignore the armour of every Scion, Ork, Tau, Guardsman, etc etc before they even strike. The Space Marines and Eldar regular troops have to endure your own attacks too, and higher initiative models won't care about that. Still, you are essentially getting a slightly weaker power fist, that still wounds GEQ on a 2+, and wounds MEQ on a 3+, ignoring all armour. It's a pretty powerful weapon - keep Mastercrafted, it's not the issue. It's just too much of an auto-take right now for points.

Again, two handed doesn't really affect the weapon. Power fists essentially have two handed, because there's no other way that I can see to get another Specialist Weapon onto a model with a power fist.

But no matter what, Stealth remains.

Not even when it doesn't fit the fluff of the army?
You're throwing in stealth to make it like they're these masters of stealth and hiding from the enemy. Problem is, that's not Scions. The Scions are so valued because of their initiative in combat, their loyalty, their ability to storm a position (as their prior name - Storm Troopers - suggested) and their skill in doing so. Not for being stealthy.

Their vehicles are fast moving, gunships, flyers, rapid wheeled trucks, their guns are bright and close ranged, their armour is bulky and bright, their very essence is as a speartip, an elite human force capable of the numbers Space Marines can't, with a bit less training and skill.
Guardsmen are the sledgehammer and anvil.
Space Marines are the scalpel.
Scions are the bit between the two - an axe or spear, perhaps.

When were spears stealthy?

I think that Stealth should be removed from Scions as a base, and instead a Scion army given psuedo-Chapter Tactics, such as:

Aerial Doctrine - All Scion units gain Deep Strike, and scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking.
Stealth Doctrine - All Scion units gain Stealth.
Firebase Doctrine - All Scion units may reroll 1s To Hit with any hot-shot weapon.
etc etc

That way, instead of making Scions this shock/stealth hybrid, make the player decide what doctrine their scions are using.
Or, as I feel is appropriate, make Formations for it, and disallow bulkier units (vehicles) and certain infantry units (Aer Scions) and force other units to be taken (Insidias Scions). Or just add Stealth as another rule for the Tempestus Dagger formations.

Stealth army wide is not fitting without specialisation though, because it doesn't fit typical Scion combat doctrine.

epronovost wrote:

@Kirotheavenger

There is already a form of Special Weapon Squad in the Command Squad of Tempestus Scions. It's a five man squad with the option for up to four special weapons. They also have slightly better stats than regular Scions (one more WS and I).

Ignis Scions, were pretty much exactly like Sternguard, instead of having different special ammo though they have combi-weapons and a few extra grenades and special equipment. Now that they have shifted to Specialised squad with some point requirements at your request, they are now either Sternguard, Vanguard and Techmarine. I can't say I am that satisfied with them right now. They appear a bit too much like the Swiss Knife of the army.

BTW, the very first formation does a bit that by allowing Infiltration to replace Deep Strike. But no matter what, Stealth remains.

The last idea I flirted about universal Stealth on Scion would be to replace Universal Stealth for a Special Rule called Ambush that provides the same bonus should the unit not have moved during their movement phase.

A command squad is just what it sounds like, it isn't a special weapons squad. You can only have 1-2 max in a standard CAD.

With your auxilliary grenade launcher does that mean they can fire 1 krak, 1 frag, 1 haywire and 1 defensive grenade per game?
I believe the way current auxilliary grenade launchers work is that they can choose between frag/krak grenades and have essentially infinite ammo.
If you wanted to keep it a one-shot thing, it should be a one-shot thing, not a 4 shot thing.

Currently, army wide you have move-through cover and stealth. Many of your more specialist units have scout.
Are your storm troopers really as stealthy as a space marine scout, who's entire role is as a scout.. Your guys are similar to pocket astartes, not guys that do absolutely everything as well as if not better than the relevant specialist troops from the relevant codexs.

Also as a point every other sniper in the game is an actual sniper, your Insidius guys aren't snipers, they're heavy weapons crews.

Also I just noticed your Insidius Scions are BS5, that means they shoot better than a Sternguard veteran.
You're supposed to be the best of the humans, not better than the best of the superhumans.
I know you want them to be better than regular Scions, but you can't. The granularity of 40k doesn't allow it.
Same thing for your squad sergeants.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

I think that Stealth should be removed from Scions as a base, and instead a Scion army given psuedo-Chapter Tactics, such as:

Aerial Doctrine - All Scion units gain Deep Strike, and scatter 1d6 when Deep Striking.
Stealth Doctrine - All Scion units gain Stealth.
Firebase Doctrine - All Scion units may reroll 1s To Hit with any hot-shot weapon.
etc etc

That way, instead of making Scions this shock/stealth hybrid, make the player decide what doctrine their scions are using.
Or, as I feel is appropriate, make Formations for it, and disallow bulkier units (vehicles) and certain infantry units (Aer Scions) and force other units to be taken (Insidias Scions). Or just add Stealth as another rule for the Tempestus Dagger formations.

Stealth army wide is not fitting without specialisation though, because it doesn't fit typical Scion combat doctrine.

I quite like this, I'm not a massive fan of everyone having some kind of successor-tactics like Smurfs do, but it seems a popular idea (I guess people want more than a paint job to express their army)

@kirotheavenger

Tau Snipers have BS: 5. They aren't more gifted for precision than humans according to both fluff and rules. Snipers are specialists. Sterguards are mighty space marines with a tacticaly fluid role they are super tactical squads not snipers. That's why they have mid-range weapons, special ammo, great close combat capacity, etc. The comparision isn't apt. Long Fanged are perhapse the only equivalent of long range specialist, but they uses canons, not snipers.

Scouts aren't specialist. They are Space Marine in training who serve a specialist role (they used to have WS: 3, BS: 3 for two edditions because of that). Kommando are specialist. They have move through cover and stealth.

Auxiliary grenade launcher can fire one grenade of each type you have to represent more limited ammunition in terms of grenade. I might change it infinitie ammunition, but that would require a serious price hike.

epronovost wrote:
@kirotheavenger

Tau Snipers have BS: 5. They aren't more gifted for precision than humans according to both fluff and rules. Snipers are specialists. Sterguards are mighty space marines with a tacticaly fluid role they are super tactical squads not snipers. That's why they have mid-range weapons, special ammo, great close combat capacity, etc. The comparision isn't apt. Long Fanged are perhapse the only equivalent of long range specialist, but they uses canons, not snipers.

Scouts aren't specialist. They are Space Marine in training who serve a specialist role (they used to have WS: 3, BS: 3 for two edditions because of that). Kommando are specialist. They have move through cover and stealth.

Auxiliary grenade launcher can fire one grenade of each type you have to represent more limited ammunition in terms of grenade. I might change it infinitie ammunition, but that would require a serious price hike.

Read some books about scouts, they might be training but they're astartes, their training is practically special ops.
You used the example of kommandos, fine we can use those as an example. Your average bloke is as stealthy as a specialist ork stealth unit. That is the issue that I was trying to convey.

Sternguard are the veteran space marines that showed particular aptitude for ranged combat.
Have you seen the Tau sniper drone models? They have a spotter carrying a targeting device about as big as himself. Your Scions are using at best a fancy scope, it doesn't compare.
As I said, I know you want these guys to be elite. But rather than looking at existing elite human troopers (D-99, existing Tempestus, and even astartes) you're looking at all the different specialist troopers in every codex you can find and going ''why can't Scions do that if [insert dedicated specialist unit here] can too?''
You're going to (and to a large extend have) end up with an army so disproportionately elite everyone would beg Matt Ward to return.

epronovost wrote:
@kirotheavenger

Tau Snipers have BS: 5. They aren't more gifted for precision than humans according to both fluff and rules.

The Tau "sniper" doesn't actually fire a shot. He acts as a spotter for the sniper drones, and spots using the giant markerlight device - which we can logically assume increases his BS without creating redundant equipment.

Snipers are specialists. Sterguards are mighty space marines with a tacticaly fluid role they are super tactical squads not snipers. That's why they have mid-range weapons, special ammo, great close combat capacity, etc. The comparision isn't apt. Long Fanged are perhapse the only equivalent of long range specialist, but they uses canons, not snipers.

Sternguard are actually the best shots and ranged combatants in their Chapter. They are shooting experts, as Vanguard are combat experts.

Funnily enough, Tactical Squads aren't just scrubs. They're actually the most experienced of all the non-Veteran Space Marines. Progression goes Scout, Devastator, Assault Marine, Tactical. The progression above that is squad sergeant or Veteran. Tactical Marines are already super - no need for super Tactical Squads. The Vanguard and Sternguard are just Veterans that are experts of their variety of combat and split into squads.

Scouts aren't specialist. They are Space Marine in training who serve a specialist role (they used to have WS: 3, BS: 3 for two edditions because of that). Kommando are specialist. They have move through cover and stealth.

Really not true.
A Scout IS a Space Marine in training. They aren't fit to be frontlines like the rest of their power armoured brethren. Instead, they are given the role of acting as the stealth and support specialists of their Chapter, taking on evasive and sabotage roles like a traditional scout and stealther. Not in the thick of combat. They are the stealth specialists of their Chapter.

Kommandos are very ingenuitive in their stealth. I won't say they shouldn't have it. I just think that if Scions can get it army-wide, why not Scouts?

@Sgt_Smudge

Tau Snipers are spotters and shooter for drones they remote control indeed, but they also have a side arm they can shoot at BS 5. They do have markerlight, but they have BS 5 without using them and BS 6 when they do (or reduce the cover). What makes you say that Insidias Scions don't have all sorts of scopes and targetting devices?

There is no such thing as a Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminator specialist. There is only veterans who select in the Chapter armory the weapons that are going to be the most useful. Because of the specificity of the Space Marine training, there is no such thing as specialisation. A Veteran might be a Sterguard in a battle and a Vanguard in the other should the tactic favor one style or the other.

@kirotheavenger

My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando. If I was to make an fandex on Boss Snikrot, everybody, even the lowly bloke would have Stealth because they are all a form of Kommando. It's the same thing. My army is an expansion where the lowly bloke is the elite scout and stealth unit of another Codex: Astra Millitarum.

I am happy at your attempt to try a rewrite of the Scion Codex. I Have been playing Scions for about 3 years now and get a game in about once a week. The army is playable up to about 1500 points if it is a CAD game but outside of that you might as well not even show up. I really believe the codex could be fixed with several small changes that would make them mildly competitive while staying in the fluff.

The Tempestor Prime needs 3 wounds, a refactor field and, LD9 stubborn.

Tempestor stat line WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 A2 I4 LD8 Stubborn. Give them access to melta bombs.

Scions stat line WS4 BS4 S3 T3 W1 A1 I4 LD 8.

Hot-shot lasgun as Assault 2 instead of rapid fire.

Taurox Prime should be Armor 11 all around. and have a points dropped to around 65pts. Give its missile launcher access to Skyfire of flak missiles. Reduce the cost of the Auger Array to 10-15 points.

Give their codex access to the Vendetta.

Don't Make there be different types of scion squads. They dont need a "Elite" choice from the codex. Let them take doctrines the same way IG veterans can. Make a stealthy infiltration doctrine upgrade, a close combat upgrade doctrine upgrade, a specialized deep strike upgrade. The squad would purchase the upgrade and gain a few special rules and equipment choices.

Utilize the Clarion Vox Network as a Orders bubble. Think of it as a 18 in. combat doctrines bubble like the space smurfs. The tempestor prime chooses a doctrine and all units within that bubble can use it if thy pass a Ld check. You can still use the Vox-castor for re-rolls. Let the tempestor issue orders to his own squad that give them small boosts (sniper, ignores cover, fleet....)

Allow them to combat squad like space marines. This would allow you make some real tactical decisions like have half of them sit on a objective will the others hunt a tank or one group lays down suppression fire with volley guns while the other group closes with the enemy.

The only way I can see them with a Elite, Heavy Support, or LoW codex choice if it was some kind of flyer. If you want those just bring in allies or imperial knights.

The only other formation they really need is a dedicated deep strike one. Think of something like the Nemesis Strike Force that allows them to alpha strike the enemy.

epronovost wrote:
@Sgt_Smudge

Tau Snipers are spotters and shooter for drones they remote control indeed, but they also have a side arm they can shoot at BS 5. They do have markerlight, but they have BS 5 without using them and BS 6 when they do (or reduce the cover). What makes you say that Insidias Scions don't have all sorts of scopes and targetting devices?

There is no such thing as a Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminator specialist. There is only veterans who select in the Chapter armory the weapons that are going to be the most useful. Because of the specificity of the Space Marine training, there is no such thing as specialisation. A Veteran might be a Sterguard in a battle and a Vanguard in the other should the tactic favor one style or the other.

@kirotheavenger

My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando. If I was to make an fandex on Boss Snikrot, everybody, even the lowly bloke would have Stealth because they are all a form of Kommando. It's the same thing. My army is an expansion where the lowly bloke is the elite scout and stealth unit of another Codex: Astra Millitarum.

Do a codex on stealth specialists, but those specialists aren't Tempestus. Tempestus are storm troopers, if you want a stealth codex why are they flying aircraft with more firepower than battle tanks?

There is a very good reason that Insidious Scions don't have the same equipment that a Tau firespotter doesn't have, and that reason is that the equipment is as big as the spotter and precludes him from firing a rifle.
He fires his pistol at BS5 because 40k has no system for different guns using different BS.

You say in one sentence that your guys have all training of a Devastator yet are as stealthy as the stealthy people in other codex's.
Sternguard veterans are those veterans that excelled at range combat, not those veterans that decided to pick up a bolter that day. It's in the codex. They occupy the same statline because that's how 40k works, if they made them BS5 they're now as good shots as some of the best shots in the galaxy, BS6 or higher is exceedingly rare.
You have sergeants getting BS5 simply because they're sergeants, and heavy weapons teams getting BS5 because you're calling them snipers.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, 40k doesn't have the granularity to allow better shots to be better shots, because even a stat change of 1 up or down is a massive difference both in performance and in relative terms.

BTW, the Sergent are all with the same stats then the unit they follow with one more Ld and A which is standard in all of 40K with a few exception.

The Tempestor Secundus is a junior officer like the Platoon leader who does have +1 WS, BS, A and Ld in the Imperial guard Codex. Mine Gets +1 BS, A, W and Ld. They are, due to their role, more similar to Chaplain or Librarian in a sense they are second in command as the name Secundus was supposed to imply. So no, my sergeant don't have BS 5 because they are sergent, they have BS 5 because they are officers and officers do have perks that sergent don't.

My snipers aren't a heavy weapon team because their weapons are weaker than the weakest heavy weapon (the Heavy Bolter in their case).

Tau Snipers have BS 5 without the massive boost of markerlight technology. They are even better with it. Their big screen is because the remote control 3 drones at the same time. They thus need three screens and control panels to pilot them. This take a lot of space. If tau can be BS 5 on sniper, why not similar specialist from other armies?

Your whole army enjoys +1 leadership because they're veterans.
An imperial guard veteran is BS4, but BS4 is the standard until you get to really fething good shots, because that's how 40k works.
A sergeant is an officer and an officer is a sergeant. Just because a quirk of the imperial guard is orders doesn't mean their sergeants are any more elite than others.

I would take a heavy hot-shot rifle over a heavy bolter any day. S6 AP3 on a BS5 platform is *insane*. And like I said, every other sniper ever is an actual sniper.
Insidious Scions should not be significantly better shots than elite space marines, hell I'm pretty sure even Eldar Rangers are only BS4

The big targetting device the Tau firespotter gets isn't the markerlight, markerlights are way smaller.
He is not similar to your Tempestus either. Firstly your Tempestus are stealth specialists still. Secondly, he carries around a bigarse targeter. Thirdly, you're carrying heavy weapons.

Your Scions are far too elite. They're supposed to be humans, you are pushing them to boundaries surpassing the elite superhumans!
Why? Because this one alien has it under completely different circumstances and I want it.

He has it on the exact same circomstances with the same sort of efficiency (which is rather average). Both of them are sniper specialists. The only different is that one is behind friendly lines and uses several drones piloted simultaniously thanks to a drone controler, which according to its description doesn't have any sort of advanced targetting device. If it has it in its description outside of your imagination, please show it to me else we might very well say that this tau who are no superior to humans in terms of capacity is just that good of a shot. The drone controller is described as screen and controler for a handful of drones with an integrated Markerlight System that can boost its BS further. The only difference between the two of them is that Insidias Scions line their shot without having to proxy through a drone and operate behind enemy line instead of behind friendly lines. BTW, snipers are heavy weapons by pure definition of the rule. They are all heavy 1. so is this one.

S6 AP: 3 on BS5 platfrom will kill surely one man per turn per man UNLESS they have cover saves, invulnerable saves, feel no pain, reanimation protocol, you know stuff that everybody can get or easily ignore thanks to numbers (who cares about three dead orks per turn). At 35 pts pieces, just shoot them with an ignore cover weapon like, let say a Whirlwind, or worse a Wyverne that cost less than the full squad and outrange them by 18' and your problem has just disapeared in a big ass explosion. After play testing them, no, they are rather well priced and not all that dangerous, but they are pretty good at killing high value elite units that aren't TEQ or in dense cover. They are no better, point for point, than Tau Sniper Drones units.

An Imperial Guard Junior Officer Stats is WS: 4, BS: 4, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+. The base stats of a guardsmen is WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 1, Ld: 7, Sv: 5+, a sergent guardsmen is WS: 3 BS: 3, S: 3, T: 3, W: 1, I: 3, A: 2, Ld: 8, Sv: 5+. A Tempestor Secundus is WS: 4, BS: 5, S: 3, T: 3, W: 2, I: 4, A: 2, Ld: 8, SV; 4+. Compared to the base stats of a Tempestus Scion the boost is almost identical as the boost between Junior Officers and regular guardsmen which is what they are supposed to be Junior Officers. Yes, junior officers always had superior stats to sergent and regular troopers because being an officer and not just as squad leader means higher stats in 40K.

Scions are human and none of them is surpassing the superhuman Space Marines at anything but stealth (and even then, Raven Guard equals them in that domain and all others). BS 5 isn't above and behond what Space Marines can have. Why should i care more about what Space Marines have with Scouts and Sternguard than what Tau and Orks have with units that are actually closer in design and battlefield roles? Space Marines aren't really closer to humans than orks or taus except perhapse in general appearence.

epronovost wrote:@Sgt_Smudge

Tau Snipers are spotters and shooter for drones they remote control indeed, but they also have a side arm they can shoot at BS 5. They do have markerlight, but they have BS 5 without using them and BS 6 when they do (or reduce the cover).

And this is most likely because the writers haven't figured a way to have a model with split BS.

What makes you say that Insidias Scions don't have all sorts of scopes and targetting devices?

Because I have no model for them, and they have nothing indicating that in their lore. And that also apllies to Scion Sergeants. Giving them BS5, better than actual SUPERHUMANS, because they're snipers is not appropriate.

There is no such thing as a Sternguard, Vanguard and Terminator specialist.

Not true. Codex says otherwise.

There is only veterans who select in the Chapter armory the weapons that are going to be the most useful. Because of the specificity of the Space Marine training, there is no such thing as specialisation. A Veteran might be a Sterguard in a battle and a Vanguard in the other should the tactic favor one style or the other.

Again, not true. The Codex makes it very clear that there are different specialities in the First Company.

@kirotheavenger

My standard bloke is a man or woman with a training and a quality that compares to a fully trained Space Marine (AKA a young Devastator, but who lacks all the genetic enhancement that makes the Space Marine superior) in the same domain than that of the ork kommando.

So they wouldn't have stealth then. In fact, if they were as well trained as a Devastator, they would have WS4 and BS4. S, T, I, W, A, Ld would not be affected for this. Devastators have no Stealth. Why should yours?

If I was to make an fandex on Boss Snikrot, everybody, even the lowly bloke would have Stealth because they are all a form of Kommando. It's the same thing. My army is an expansion where the lowly bloke is the elite scout and stealth unit of another Codex: Astra Millitarum.

But that's not Scions.

If you want to make an army of Stealth Guardsmen, go ahead. But don't try and take Scions out of their role. They are Shock Troopers, hard and fast hitters, not stealth experts.

epronovost wrote:BTW, the Sergent are all with the same stats then the unit they follow with one more Ld and A which is standard in all of 40K with a few exception.

The Tempestor Secundus is a junior officer like the Platoon leader who does have +1 WS, BS, A and Ld in the Imperial guard Codex. Mine Gets +1 BS, A, W and Ld. They are, due to their role, more similar to Chaplain or Librarian in a sense they are second in command as the name Secundus was supposed to imply. So no, my sergeant don't have BS 5 because they are sergent, they have BS 5 because they are officers and officers do have perks that sergent don't.

But that runs counter to what you outlined a Sergeant/Officer gets.

You said that a normal Sergeant upgrade is typically a point of WS, a point of BS, a extra attack, and extra Ld. However, the scaling of 40k doesn't allow that with Junior Officer-come-Sergeants. It's simply ludicrous to believe that the equivalent of a Sergeant of the Tempestus (which already have Sergeants, why reinvent the wheel?) is a better shot that a genetically engineered veteran of the most prestigious fighting force of the Imperium?

My snipers aren't a heavy weapon team because their weapons are weaker than the weakest heavy weapon (the Heavy Bolter in their case).

But they aren't Snipers - they don't have the Sniper rule. If they are just using something like a lascannon to snipe, fair play. But it doesn't make them snipers.

Tau Snipers have BS 5 without the massive boost of markerlight technology. They are even better with it. Their big screen is because the remote control 3 drones at the same time. They thus need three screens and control panels to pilot them. This take a lot of space. If tau can be BS 5 on sniper, why not similar specialist from other armies?

Because if we look at snipers from other armies, we see that just "being a sniper" doesn't mean anything for BS.

I can take sniper rifles on Imperial Guard special weapon teams. No BS buff.
Scouts can get snipers. No BS buff.
Kroot can have snipers. No BS buff.
Stalker bolter Deathwatch. No BS buff.
Eldar Pathfinders. No BS buff.

Still want to say that having a sniper makes you a better shot instantly? The Tau is the anomaly here.

kirotheavenger wrote:Your whole army enjoys +1 leadership because they're veterans.
An imperial guard veteran is BS4, but BS4 is the standard until you get to really fething good shots, because that's how 40k works.
A sergeant is an officer and an officer is a sergeant. Just because a quirk of the imperial guard is orders doesn't mean their sergeants are any more elite than others.

This. Veterancy is very understated, because of the granularity of 40k. A Scout is not as good of a shot as a Sternguard Veteran, yet the game doesn't reflect that. A Scout is just as good with a blade as a Vanguard Veteran, yet that isn't shown.

A simple +1 Ld and BS shows your Veterancy. Having BS4 for a human is VERY good. Being BS5 on base infantry is too good.

Your Scions are far too elite. They're supposed to be humans, you are pushing them to boundaries surpassing the elite superhumans!

This is the issue. You're trying to push Scions into a niche they aren't meant to fill (stealth and infiltration) and be elite - the problem is, they're elite to HUMANS. Not genetically engineered demigods. Space Marines are given just as, if not more, arduous training as Scions, and their genetic implants only make them stronger. They'll survive more, meaning they will live longer to gain yet more experience. Scions, whilst absolutely the pinnacle of human ability, are still not as good as Astartes. This just isn't reflected - you're making Space Marines minus a few things and plus all the rest.

Howscat wrote:
Don't Make there be different types of scion squads. They dont need a "Elite" choice from the codex. Let them take doctrines the same way IG veterans can. Make a stealthy infiltration doctrine upgrade, a close combat upgrade doctrine upgrade, a specialized deep strike upgrade. The squad would purchase the upgrade and gain a few special rules and equipment choices.

Utilize the Clarion Vox Network as a Orders bubble. Think of it as a 18 in. combat doctrines bubble like the space smurfs. The tempestor prime chooses a doctrine and all units within that bubble can use it if thy pass a Ld check. You can still use the Vox-castor for re-rolls. Let the tempestor issue orders to his own squad that give them small boosts (sniper, ignores cover, fleet....)

I like these ideas, simplicity is a good thing.