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We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

 Roknar wrote:
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?

Again the keyword is that it is says, They, and Each other, in regards to deploying.

if I start my deployment phase put down an IG platoon, Some Tanks etc, by the time I get to my psychic phase, are those units deploying?

No they have been deployed the step of deploying has been completed.

So if I summon units now, THEY, the units, will not be deploying within 12 of each other.

We at this point have deployed units and a deploying unit. The wording for 12" would be for "they" to both be deploying.

This only happens at the deployment phase where you have simultaneous deploying taking place. I feel this qualifies as RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?

They are not. If you board someone and their reserves do not come in, they lose for not having any units deployed.

Because you were indicating that the "deploy" in "deploy for battle" and "deploy from Deep Strike" were two separate or different things.

Your example didn't help because in game terms, you disembark from a Rhino, not deploy from it.

I'll give you the transport thing because I don't have my book in front of me and I forgot what it had for wording.

But for the rest of it I wasn't referring to units or armies are or even psychic powers. I was referring to the fact that just because two separate rules have the word deploy in them, doesnt mean they act the same. The counter arguments were trying to link them and i was stating that you just cant link two things because they share a word.

I thought it was clearly evident in how I wrote it, but possibly not. I'm not always elegant with my wording.

Editing to add quote

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?

What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?

I would say they mean the same thing. Deploy/Deploying do not really have any other iteration in the game.

I am surprised how many people are still denying the FAQ/errata.
As others have stated, you cannot deploy them 12" in the deployment phase a the beginning of the game (as with any CTA allies). But are fully free to summon them and deploy them within a shorter range, or at the max but you do suffer the with one eye open effect.

If people are still arguing over the deployment part after the game beings, all I can say is ignore them. FAQ, Errata and even on the Warhammer community page has said you can.

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?

What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?

All units in the two Deathwing detachments must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

If they are not starting the game "deployed for battle", then why would any Conjured units?

Tsol wrote:I am surprised how many people are still denying the FAQ/errata.
As others have stated, you cannot deploy them 12" in the deployment phase a the beginning of the game (as with any CTA allies). But are fully free to summon them and deploy them within a shorter range, or at the max but you do suffer the with one eye open effect.

If people are still arguing over the deployment part after the game beings, all I can say is ignore them. FAQ, Errata and even on the Warhammer community page has said you can.

Because the FAQs, like many in this cycle, contradict what is actually written in the rules. Because the OP was asking why some people didn't think it would work.

Where is the FAQ on this, out of curiosity? It is not in the BRB Update where it should be. The FAQ referenced in the OP is more about accessing and using the spell. It doesn't state anything about the unit not Mishapping when it deploys. That is applying an unstated implication.

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?

What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?

All units in the two Deathwing detachments must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

If they are not starting the game "deployed for battle", then why would any Conjured units?

Tsol wrote:I am surprised how many people are still denying the FAQ/errata.
As others have stated, you cannot deploy them 12" in the deployment phase a the beginning of the game (as with any CTA allies). But are fully free to summon them and deploy them within a shorter range, or at the max but you do suffer the with one eye open effect.

If people are still arguing over the deployment part after the game beings, all I can say is ignore them. FAQ, Errata and even on the Warhammer community page has said you can.

Because the FAQs, like many in this cycle, contradict what is actually written in the rules. Because the OP was asking why some people didn't think it would work.

Where is the FAQ on this, out of curiosity? It is not in the BRB Update where it should be. The FAQ referenced in the OP is more about accessing and using the spell. It doesn't state anything about the unit not Mishapping when it deploys. That is applying an unstated implication.

Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.

BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.

Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.

If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.

What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?

I'm totally for servants of the corpse-emperor succumbing to the sweet temptations that the chaos gods offer them. Soon their whole gilded over, but rotten throughout world will collapse!

EDIT

I'd have to agree with Charitoph that they are talking about when the unit deploys, not the army. I did have a question about them describing moving on from reveserves as deployment, but I did find a reference to that in the Deep Strike Mishap table, so they do consider it deploying (going by what is said in Reserves in general, there might have been a question as to whether it counted as deployment), so a unit coming in from reserves is definitely deploying.

This gets compounded by the FAQ question saying that SM characters can take malefic daemonolgy, but not specifically addressing summoning as part of that. As it stands, by RAW you can get summoning but you couldn't use it. I would suspect that RAI is that if they're allowing malefic daemonolgy for the SMs, that they'd allow summoning to work also and that there would need to be a way for them to come on to the board, but that's just an opinion. It would definitely be something to talk about beforehand with your opponent if you suddenly want your Librarians summoning chaos demons.

 doctortom wrote:
EDIT

I'd have to agree with Charitoph that they are talking about when the unit deploys, not the army. I did have a question about them describing moving on from reveserves as deployment, but I did find a reference to that in the Deep Strike Mishap table, so they do consider it deploying (going by what is said in Reserves in general, there might have been a question as to whether it counted as deployment), so a unit coming in from reserves is definitely deploying.

This gets compounded by the FAQ question saying that SM characters can take malefic daemonolgy, but not specifically addressing summoning as part of that. As it stands, by RAW you can get summoning but you couldn't use it. I would suspect that RAI is that if they're allowing malefic daemonolgy for the SMs, that they'd allow summoning to work also and that there would need to be a way for them to come on to the board, but that's just an opinion. It would definitely be something to talk about beforehand with your opponent if you suddenly want your Librarians summoning chaos demons.

Can you elaborate on how exactly, RAW, you can get it but you can't use it?
I read the phrasing and I don't see how that conclusion is reached.

 Charistoph wrote:

Roknar wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
We know that they make a difference between deployment and deploying. CTA says that you can't deploy within 12 when deploying for battle.
They could have left out the deploying for battle part and it would still have made sense.
Adding prepare for battle only makes sense if they're limiting the restriction to the deployment phase.
Summoning happens during the game so wouldn't be affected by that CTA restriction.

From how they use "deploy for battle" in other parts as well, I'm pretty sure they mean deploying in the deployment phase.

So are Terminators in a Deathwing detachment "deployed for battle" when the game starts or not?

What's your point? I don't know what the rules are for that. Aren't they all put into reserve?
You put units into reserve instead of deploying them, so I guess not?

All units in the two Deathwing detachments must start the game in Deep Strike Reserves.

If they are not starting the game "deployed for battle", then why would any Conjured units?

They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.

That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.

@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

 doctortom wrote:
@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

Well I understand that there was an FAQ.
But as I stated a bit further up, even RAW would not interpret into deepstrike mishaps occurring on summons and that is putting the FAQ aside.

So my query was as to what the initial argument against it was.

 doctortom wrote:
Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

As I said, I don't see how summoning is a problem for CTA units, but I'd like to say this for the marine faq.
Marines are allowed to conjure daemons, as everybody else is too. That doesn't have any impact on what happens when they do though.
Marines get to summon daemons on a 2+ as the faq says, but if you believe that being CTA allies would apply when summoning, then they would still mishap when manifesting the power since you can't deploy them within the 12 inch area.
I'd argue that only the final position counts in this scenario though as the initial part doesn't actually place any restrictions. Put it where you want it to arrive and then check where it *actually* arrives.

 Roknar wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

As I said, I don't see how summoning is a problem for CTA units, but I'd like to say this for the marine faq.
Marines are allowed to conjure daemons, as everybody else is too. That doesn't have any impact on what happens when they do though.
Marines get to summon daemons on a 2+ as the faq says, but if you believe that being CTA allies would apply when summoning, then they would still mishap when manifesting the power since you can't deploy them within the 12 inch area.
I'd argue that only the final position counts in this scenario though as the initial part doesn't actually place any restrictions. Put it where you want it to arrive and then check where it *actually* arrives.

This is incorrect though.

CTA rules state that " THEY cannot be within 12" of EACH OTHER when DEPLOYING"

"They" is more than one unit.
"Each other" is radius from one unit to another unit.

Lets say I am playing first, deploy/deploying my forces.
My first turn, are the units that were deploying in my deployment, deployed or still deploying?
They are deployed, they are no longer performing the action deploying.
If THEY were deploying they would both be arriving, two units deploying.

CTA only applies to units deploying within 12" of each other. If I summon some deamons at this point and they arrive next to a CTA, lets say 8" away, we have a deployed unit and a deploying unit.
We do not have THEY "two or more units" deploying within 12" of each other. The only time you can apply the rule would be in the deployment phase.

Ceann wrote:Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.

BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.

Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.

If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.

What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?

1) You deploy from Deep Strike, Outflank, or even just Arriving From Reserves.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

2) Deep Striking units which are attempting to Deploy can Mishap.

If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.

3) Ally considerations are between two units of different Factions, this is the "they" they are talking about. A Librarian and Bloodletters qualifies as this.

The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.

4) In most cases, a unit is already deployed when you start putting another one down, even in deployment, and simultaneously is never stated in the CTA rule. Your interpretation would mean that so long as I didn't put a Daemon model and Marneus Calgar on the table at the same time, I could just put them right next to each other without difficulty. No indication is made for Deployment that it is "all at the same time" any more than my old Necron Praetorians Deep Striking next to my Crusader Squad.

Roknar wrote:They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.

That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.

If Deathwing Terminators who are in Deep Strike Reserves are not "deployed for battle", then why would they not be "deployed for battle" when they arrived from Deep Strike?

What defines as "deployed for battle" as only in the Deployment part of preparing a game?

In Deployment, armies are deployed for battle. The units are deployed on the table or placed in Reserves, though the potential Conjured units would also be set aside as well so they can be brought at hand. Armies are the sum collection of your detachments. Detachments are the sum collection of your units. Units are the sum collection of your models.

So, while the army may be deployed when the game starts, the individual units may not be, and most definitely not for units you plan ot Conjure. CTA comes in to play when units from different Factions with that level of Alliance are deployed for battle.

What makes the "deploy for battle" any different than "deploy from Deep Strike" or "deploy from Reserves"?

doctortom wrote:@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

You missed my point. I was saying that even if you believe it is a problem, the marine faq isn't any exception. Being able to conjure units wouldn't allow you to circumvent the issue, that's a separate thing, so the Marine faq wouldn't be a contradiction.

As for CTA requiring two units "deploying", you never have two units both "deploying" as you first have to finish deploying the one unit before you can deploy the other. So CTA wouldn't matter, ever, with that reading.

The CTA rule just means that you can't deploy any two CTA units within 12 inch of each other.

 Charistoph wrote:

Ceann wrote:Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.

BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.

Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.

If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.

What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?

1) You deploy from Deep Strike, Outflank, or even just Arriving From Reserves.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

2) Deep Striking units which are attempting to Deploy can Mishap.

If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.

3) Ally considerations are between two units of different Factions, this is the "they" they are talking about. A Librarian and Bloodletters qualifies as this.

The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.

4) In most cases, a unit is already deployed when you start putting another one down, even in deployment, and simultaneously is never stated in the CTA rule. Your interpretation would mean that so long as I didn't put a Daemon model and Marneus Calgar on the table at the same time, I could just put them right next to each other without difficulty. No indication is made for Deployment that it is "all at the same time" any more than my old Necron Praetorians Deep Striking next to my Crusader Squad.

Roknar wrote:They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.

That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.

If Deathwing Terminators who are in Deep Strike Reserves are not "deployed for battle", then why would they not be "deployed for battle" when they arrived from Deep Strike?

What defines as "deployed for battle" as only in the Deployment part of preparing a game?

In Deployment, armies are deployed for battle. The units are deployed on the table or placed in Reserves, though the potential Conjured units would also be set aside as well so they can be brought at hand. Armies are the sum collection of your detachments. Detachments are the sum collection of your units. Units are the sum collection of your models.

So, while the army may be deployed when the game starts, the individual units may not be, and most definitely not for units you plan ot Conjure. CTA comes in to play when units from different Factions with that level of Alliance are deployed for battle.

What makes the "deploy for battle" any different than "deploy from Deep Strike" or "deploy from Reserves"?

doctortom wrote:@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

I think that you are missing my point.

When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.

Deepstriking is a deploy/deployment, I have no objection to this.

CTA states, CTA UNITS,are treated exactly like desperate allies, but cannot deploy within 12" of each other when THEY are deploying for battle.

Key points.

1. UNITS, not unit.
2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
3. THEY, is more than one unit.
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.

Your deployment phase is the only time that models are put on the table at the same time and all considered to have arrived at the same time, when you finish placing them.
Once a unit has been placed down once the game is started, it is now deployed, it is not performing the action deploying.
If I summon daemons, the UNIT is deployed normally, there is no deepstrike mishap.

The wording of CTA requires UNITS "more than one" to deploying within 12" of EACH OTHER.
We do not have units deploying, we have a unit, one unit, deploying, there is no other deploying unit within 12".
We only have ONE unit performing the action of deploying, not UNITS.
All of your statements were correct, except the CTA wording requires the UNITS involved to be deploying in order to be applicable.

 Charistoph wrote:

Spoiler:

Ceann wrote:Units do not mishap when they deploy. I have reiterated as such and the rules are worded so that doesn't actually happen, even in the BRB.

BRB Page 127.
Cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying for battle.

Of EACH OTHER when THEY are deploying. The only time multiple deployments take place is during initial deployment.
I.E two units or more "they" units cannot be within 12" when deploying.

If on your first turn you conjure some daemons and they come within 12" of a unit, nothing happens, there is no "each other" also deploying for them to be within 12" of.
You do not have "They" deploying, you have a single unit deploying.
Once you have started the game any unit on the board is already deployed, they are not deploying.
The wording of the rule only accounts for units deploying simultaneously.
The conjuring is a single unit deploying.

What part of all of this is being interpreted in some other way?

1) You deploy from Deep Strike, Outflank, or even just Arriving From Reserves.

Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves and then deploy them as follows:

2) Deep Striking units which are attempting to Deploy can Mishap.

If any of the models in a Deep Striking unit cannot be deployed, because at least one model would land partially or fully off the table, in impassable terrain, on top of a friendly model, or on top of or within 1" of an enemy model, something has gone wrong. The controlling player must roll on the Deep Strike Mishap table and apply the results.

3) Ally considerations are between two units of different Factions, this is the "they" they are talking about. A Librarian and Bloodletters qualifies as this.

The Allies Matrix below shows the levels of alliance between units that have different Factions in the same army.

4) In most cases, a unit is already deployed when you start putting another one down, even in deployment, and simultaneously is never stated in the CTA rule. Your interpretation would mean that so long as I didn't put a Daemon model and Marneus Calgar on the table at the same time, I could just put them right next to each other without difficulty. No indication is made for Deployment that it is "all at the same time" any more than my old Necron Praetorians Deep Striking next to my Crusader Squad.

Roknar wrote:They don't? I was arguing that the CTA restriction applies to deployment phase, while conjured units appear during the psychic phase and so wouldn't be affected by the CTA restriction.
Ergo, anybody than can summon daemons can do so without them mishapping as they are allowed to deploy within 12 of the psyker.

That rule only applies when deploying within 12 WHEN deploying for battle. So it depends on what they mean by deploying for battle.
For me that only makes sense if they're referring to the deployment phase.

If Deathwing Terminators who are in Deep Strike Reserves are not "deployed for battle", then why would they not be "deployed for battle" when they arrived from Deep Strike?

What defines as "deployed for battle" as only in the Deployment part of preparing a game?

In Deployment, armies are deployed for battle. The units are deployed on the table or placed in Reserves, though the potential Conjured units would also be set aside as well so they can be brought at hand. Armies are the sum collection of your detachments. Detachments are the sum collection of your units. Units are the sum collection of your models.

So, while the army may be deployed when the game starts, the individual units may not be, and most definitely not for units you plan ot Conjure. CTA comes in to play when units from different Factions with that level of Alliance are deployed for battle.

What makes the "deploy for battle" any different than "deploy from Deep Strike" or "deploy from Reserves"?

doctortom wrote:@ceann: Never mind, I forgot the BRB FAQ answer mentioned back in the first post, and was only going off of the daemonology FAQ question in the Space Marine Codex.

Given the BRB FAQ says they can summon demons, then they can summon demons. Even if CTA allies ruleswould apply normally to the summoned demons, I would say the FAQ indicates a specific overriding of the restriction from those rules, as you are given permission to summon them and it would have to be within the range normally prohibited for CTA allies. I would say advanced > basic makes it a moot point about what CTA says.

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.

Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.

Deploying for battle is irrelevant to the resolution.

 Charistoph wrote:

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.

There is sense to it. A mishap doesn't stop you from deploying a unit, it just delays it, unless it blows up. So even if they do mishap automatically, they could still arrive somewhere else or later.

 doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.

Why do you apply the mishap rules? It is not required.


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BRB Page 132

Standard Deployment Method.

1. The players roll off. The winner of the roll-off decides who will deploy first and will deploy second.

2. The side DEPLOYING first must set up all units in their army.

3. The the other side sets up all the units in their army.

4.The player that DEPLOYED first can choose to take the first or second turn.


CTA explicitly states UNITS, not unit, UNITS deploying withing 12" of EACH OTHER. This page clearly shows us per step 2 that the player is DEPLOYING their army.

Step 4 clearly shows us that at step for the units are DEPLOYED. They are therefore no longer DEPLOYING.

The statement on CTA notates UNITS may not be withing 12" of each other when THEY are DEPLOYING.

DEPLOYING has already finished, THEY are no longer deploying. When you perform a summon a UNIT, not UNITS, not a THEY, is deploying. THEY and DEPLOYING indicates that you have two or more units performing the action deploying.

A single unit deploying is not UNITS deploying.
The 12" only applies for the deployment step, a mishap is not required for a summon, the requirements for the statement are not being met. I am reading off the entire rule, not cherry picking one or two words, the entire statement is being evaluated.

If I summon some bloodletters, are UNITS deploying within 12" of EACH OTHER? No.

I said IF you apply the CTA rules.

And yes, it says "units". In this case "units" would be the summoned unit and the unit doing the summoning. In all cases, being within 12" means that there has to be a unit already on the board and one being deployed. Their use of "units" is not specifically 2 units deploying at the same time. I don't see this as a reason that invalidates the CTA rules. I do see the specific permission for summoning to say that you can summon them onto the board, however.

 doctortom wrote:
I said IF you apply the CTA rules.

And yes, it says "units". In this case "units" would be the summoned unit and the unit doing the summoning. In all cases, being within 12" means that there has to be a unit already on the board and one being deployed. Their use of "units" is not specifically 2 units deploying at the same time. I don't see this as a reason that invalidates the CTA rules. I do see the specific permission for summoning to say that you can summon them onto the board, however.

The key term for me is "when THEY are deploying"
I would assert that it is 2 units deploying at the same time because it notates "each other", identifying the relationship between both of them performing the same action.
Per page 132, "they" would only be deploying per step 2 of the deployment method at step 4 it states deployed, meaning deploying is no longer occurring.

A deepstrike/summon would be an instance of a unit, not units, deploying.
Be careful with terminology on this, we have a UNIT, not units.
Models are in a unit.
We do not have a "THEY" deploying, we have a deployed and deploying unit.

A 5 man tactical squad is a unit, regardless of many models are in said unit.

It was written in general, to cover all deployment, so the use of "they" is understandable without it indicating that it is excluding units deploying later than others.

Ceann wrote:I think that you are missing my point.

When you are deploying in your deployment phase, all of the units are being deployed at the same time, regardless of when you physically put them on the table is not relevant. At the end of the phase, all of those units finish deploying. Anything that was not deploying is put in reserves.

I am not missing your point. If you actually read the points I wrote, I addressed this point. Wherein does it state that units deploying in deployment are being "deployed at the same time"?

Ceann wrote:1. UNITS, not unit.
3. THEY, is more than one unit.

If there is only one unit present, then no Ally rules are being called upon, so no reason to enforce.

Ceann wrote:2. Deploy/deploying with 12" of EACH OTHER
4. Summoning only has one unit performing the action deploy/deploying, not two.

The Conjuror is already deployed, otherwise they would not be able to use the Power. The other unit is attempting to deploy. The second has to be deployed within 12" of the first. What in the rulebook makes this any different between putting a Devilfish on the table and a Carnifex right next to it during deployment?

So, unless you can demonstrate your pre-point of all units being deployed at the same time during deployment to be valid, all you have is RAI.

Roknar wrote:There is no definition in the book as to what exactly they mean by deploying for battle. Reading between the lines though seems to indicate that they are referring to the deployment phase.
With your definition, deploying for battle is identical to deploying full stop. That means you could read the CTA as "units...cannot deploy within 12" of each other when they are deploying" which is completely redundant.
Writing redundant rules isn't exactly a rare thing with GW but still, it makes more sense when reading it with the deployment phase in mind.

Either way, there is no way to definitively rule one way or the other on what "deploying for battle" really means.

That's my point. Without a way to differentiate "deploying for battle" for a Fortification, a Deep Striking Terminator unit, and a Conjured Daemon unit, we rather have to treat them as the same.

The rulebook uses "deploy" when units are placed on the table. So, until I can identify that "for battle" is exclusive to the deployment phase, I must consider it in the same light as I would for a Deep Striking unit.

doctortom wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Not really. It no more addresses the CTA situation than Drop Pod's Open Top addresses restrictions against Charging after Arriving From Reserves or Arriving From Deep Strike. Just being allowed to use the power doesn't mean the units are not held accountable to the rest of the rules.

That's not an apt comparison. Even if you can't charge after arriving from reserves or arriving from deep strike, you DO get to arrive from reserves or deep strike. You are given permission to summon. If you summon you get an automatic mishap if you apply the CTA allies rules. There's no sense in specifying they can summon if they can't summon and get them on the board.

Quite an apt comparison. You were stating that since they were given permission to Summon Daemons, they would override the CTA rules, even though it is never referenced by the Power, the FAQ, or the CTA rules in any form. The FAQ doesn't do anything more to stop me from Conjuring that Daemon unit on to Impassable Terrain, either, should it override that as well?

Open-Topped Vehicles provide the Assault Vehicle rule which allows a unit that Disembarked this turn to Charge. It makes no reference to Reserves Charging, nor do the restrictions on Reserves Charging ever mention units being Disembarked from a Transport. Deep Strike does, but only to go so far as to say that the disembarked unit is Deep Striking, too, nothing about if the Vehicle is Open-Topped.

Do we casually allow permissions to override restrictions they do not address, or do we consider those restrictions in play until they are directly addressed by the rule in question?

Interesting. I'm not declaring for RAW either way, but consider this:
If I have a BA squad deep strike on turn 2, as part of the formation that allows them to make a disordered charge from deepstrike, could they ever successfully charge a CTE army? If they are deploying then they could never get withing 12" of the enemy (out of charge range). Would this actually trigger a deep strike mishap? If I drop BA hammernator squad 6" from the enemy HQ, and they do not scatter, is this therefore an invalid deployment RAW?