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 ClockworkZion wrote:
Really? So... What bonuses do Thousand Sons get from their LT?

Try looking at the full data sheet to find out.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
What about from being Tzeentch?

Probably nothing

 ClockworkZion wrote:
What bonuses or penalties do the Inceptors get from their CT?

Does it matter? Pick something the gap is only going to widen.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
What does the Thousand Sons banner do?

What do you think they do? +1 ld and some gak bonus like always.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Are we accounting that 1 in 6 attacks by CSM in melee get an extra attack

Thats a chainsword thing not a CSM thing Rubrics don't have chainswords.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Why aren't we looking at how many wounds from shooting the Inceptors will take at 19-24"? You know, the range they can't shoot but be shot for situations where they don't start inside their range band (perhaps they landed and wiped out some cultists and are now focusing on the Rubrics)?

Because its .4 wounds and would only be 1 turn it literally makes no difference

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Why assume they make the charge when averages mean they need to roll a 9+ to make the charge and even with a reroll are less likely to make it on turn one instead of being Overwatched, then shot again the next turn and counter-charged?

Because they have jet packs which is almost guarnteed to give them some bonus for charging.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I don't see the objectivity of having all information present and accounted for, not fairness by accounting for situations that would hurt the Inceptors. Everything in this thread is geared towards supporting the assumption that in a straight fit the Inceptors will ALWAYS have and advantage despite the fact that it's impossible for that to actually be true.

Think harder. Look harder...

Oh and its not an assumption when Inceptors can DS on turn 1 and guarnteed get the first round of firing. Every fething game.

Random but... where are people getting the free 3" move when disembarking from? I can't find reference to it in the leaked rules or any of the articles. Unless people are extrapolating from the deepstriking rules.

Because I'd like to see if it does indicate this is a "free" move, more than likely I'd expect it to count against the unit's movement for the turn.

Edit: was looking on the movement page, didn't see the transport sidebar. That's interesting to say the least.

SilverAlien wrote:


Considering my comparison showed them being outshot by both lower and the same power units, I'd say it likely indicates something. It may indicate power isn't just a vague measure but a generally useless one, or that rubrics are over priced, or that their is a rule that makes the sorcerer more than dead weight/a melee deterrent.

We can actually learn quite a bit if people would stop and think.

The only function of power is to be able to quickly make a game without worrying about making a list. The simple fact that it doesn't considers weapons or upgrades should tell you how useless it is for actual balance.

And your comparison doesn't consider the fact that Rubrics are actually tougher targets against most weapons.

Tyran wrote:
The only function of power is to be able to quickly make a game without worrying about making a list. The simple fact that it doesn't considers weapons or upgrades should tell you how useless it is for actual balance.

Power is considering that fact that all upgrades are taken for the power point listed.

This is what the thread has devolved into...

The numbers prove that Interceptors are not only better than Rubrics, but a MAGNITUDE BETTER.

The responses are... MAYBE THERE WILL BE SOME HIDDEN SUPER SECRET SUPER RULE THAT CHANGES THAT!


Altho, I do like the idea of Warpflamer Rubrics. Ignoring the reach of the weapon. It actually is fairly strong.

An average of 14 shots compared to the 8 Bolters could provide.

14 shots that autohit...

T3, 5+, = 14 * 2/3 = 9.33
T3, 4+, = 14 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 7.77
T4, 3+, = 14 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 4.66
T4, 2+, = 14 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 3.50
T7, 3+, = 14 * 1/3 * 2/3 = 3.11
T8, 3+, = 14 * 1/6 * 2/3 = 1.55

JNA reference values
T3, 5+, 0-12"
4 Wounds from Rubrics
6.67 Wounds from Inceptors

T4, 3+, 0-12"
2 Wounds from Rubrics
4 Wounds from Inceptors

T7, 3+, 0-12"
1.33 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

T8, 3+, 0-12"
.67 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

Okay, let's assume an 8" max (at the end of the movement phase).

Kills one and a half Inceptors, Inceptor player picks the nearest to die to get an extra 1".

They're now 9" away. They move their 10", putting them 19" away-outside the average threat range, and JUST BARELY inside the maximum threat range. (Unless the Inceptors weren't bunched together, or their base is bigger than 1", in which case they're OUTSIDE the MAXIMUM threat range.)

ERJAK wrote:
Basically if both players are playing well it's a close goddam fight that comes down to either what else is going on in the battle, dice, equipment choices or how on fire the aspiring sorcerer is.

Seriously, in a vacuum chamber 'I stand 17" away in cover you stand 17" away in cover' fight, how fire the aspiring sorcerer is is the single biggest determining factor since he can kill the entire squad of inceptors in 2 psychic phases despite their defenses if he rolls extremely well, whereas the entire inceptor squad needs 4ish turns to kill the rubrics if they're full strength for all 4.

If close combat happens the rubrics are at a MASSIVE advantage, even with less attacks swinging secons AND wounding on 5s for the regular guys.

They are at a slight advantage in melee. Not "MASSIVE". Do the math 1.15 wounds for rubrics .71 wounds for Inceptors if you include the charge damage it becomes 1.21.

Tyran wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


Considering my comparison showed them being outshot by both lower and the same power units, I'd say it likely indicates something. It may indicate power isn't just a vague measure but a generally useless one, or that rubrics are over priced, or that their is a rule that makes the sorcerer more than dead weight/a melee deterrent.

We can actually learn quite a bit if people would stop and think.

The only function of power is to be able to quickly make a game without worrying about making a list. The simple fact that it doesn't considers weapons or upgrades should tell you how useless it is for actual balance.

And your comparison doesn't consider the fact that Rubrics are actually tougher targets against most weapons.

Tougher than plague marines? No they are not. If I must I'll be glad to go through and show that, there is not a single weapon in the game rubrics are tougher against. Hypothetically, assuming the rubrics can get a 4+ invulnerable vs 1 damage weapons with high AP, a str 10+ ap-4 damage 1 weapon would be marginally better vs plague marines (save on a 5+ vs 4+, all else equal) but that's literally it. But that's literally the only time it'd be the case, and no such weapon currently exists. In all other cases plague marines are as tough or tougher, again despite having a lower power.

 Charistoph wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The only function of power is to be able to quickly make a game without worrying about making a list. The simple fact that it doesn't considers weapons or upgrades should tell you how useless it is for actual balance.

Power is considering that fact that all upgrades are taken for the power point listed.

Power doesn't really considers that, because you cannot assume that the units being used will have all the upgrades or weapons. And there are units whose entire role is dependent on upgrades and weapons.

For example Tyranid termagants, there is literally a difference of 3 times the firepower between a devilgant and the standard version, and they are going to have the same power cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Tougher than plague marines? No they are not. If I must I'll be glad to go through and show that, there is not a single weapon in the game rubrics are tougher against.

Lasguns in open terrain is one, although I was actually thinking about Rubrics vs Inceptors.

I gotta say, this is the dumbest thread I've ever read on dakkadakka, yet reminds me why I hardly come here.

No one here knows what's entirely in this new edition, and yet you talk like it's already completely released. Hilarious.

Tyran wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Tougher than plague marines? No they are not. If I must I'll be glad to go through and show that, there is not a single weapon in the game rubrics are tougher against.

Lasguns in open terrain is one, although I was actually thinking about Rubrics vs Inceptors.

You realize a 3+ save and a 5+ FNP beats a 2+ save, correct?

Inceptors are a different story, but my point is that the rubrics toughness doesn't mitigate their poor firepower, as plague marines are cheaper, have roughly as much firepower (including the rubric's sorc), and are quite a bit tougher than either.

Inceptors actually have the same rough durability vs lasgun fire in the open. Rubrics get a 2+ save, but inceptors have more wounds overall, and have 2w each so they can take a wound without losing firepower. Plasma and other high AP single damage weapons favor rubrics, but str 4/5 or 8/9 swing advantage to inceptors. So durability is mostly a wash.

 Shadelkan wrote:
I gotta say, this is the dumbest thread I've ever read on dakkadakka, yet reminds me why I hardly come here.

No one here knows what's entirely in this new edition, and yet you talk like it's already completely released. Hilarious.

Yes we only have the unit and weapon profiles, core rules, and rules for all listed abilities. No way we could possibly compare them.

All we are missing is the icon of flame and potential army wide bonuses for taking certain factions, which we assume are roughly equivalent if they even still exist. We aren't really going out on that much of a limb.

 Talamare wrote:
This is what the thread has devolved into...

The numbers prove that Interceptors are not only better than Rubrics, but a MAGNITUDE BETTER.

The responses are... MAYBE THERE WILL BE SOME HIDDEN SUPER SECRET SUPER RULE THAT CHANGES THAT!


Altho, I do like the idea of Warpflamer Rubrics. Ignoring the reach of the weapon. It actually is fairly strong.

An average of 14 shots compared to the 8 Bolters could provide.

14 shots that autohit...

T3, 5+, = 14 * 2/3 = 9.33
T3, 4+, = 14 * 2/3 * 5/6 = 7.77
T4, 3+, = 14 * 1/2 * 2/3 = 4.66
T4, 2+, = 14 * 1/2 * 1/2 = 3.50
T7, 3+, = 14 * 1/3 * 2/3 = 3.11
T8, 3+, = 14 * 1/6 * 2/3 = 1.55

JNA reference values
T3, 5+, 0-12"
4 Wounds from Rubrics
6.67 Wounds from Inceptors

T4, 3+, 0-12"
2 Wounds from Rubrics
4 Wounds from Inceptors

T7, 3+, 0-12"
1.33 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

T8, 3+, 0-12"
.67 Wounds from Rubrics
2 Wounds from Inceptors

Except your never going to be in range. If you bring a bunch of units filled with flamers people are going to sit back pop your transports first turn and then shoot you down as you slog forward at 9" a turn. Its not a viable strategy in the slightest.

SilverAlien wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Tougher than plague marines? No they are not. If I must I'll be glad to go through and show that, there is not a single weapon in the game rubrics are tougher against.

Lasguns in open terrain is one, although I was actually thinking about Rubrics vs Inceptors.

You realize a 3+ save and a 5+ FNP beats a 2+ save, correct?

Inceptors are a different story, but my point is that the rubrics toughness doesn't mitigate their poor firepower, as plague marines are cheaper, have roughly as much firepower (including the rubric's sorc), and are quite a bit tougher than either.

Inceptors actually have the same rough durability vs lasgun fire in the open. Rubrics get a 2+ save, but inceptors have more wounds overall, and have 2w each so they can take a wound without losing firepower. Plasma and other high AP single damage weapons favor rubrics, but str 4/5 or 8/9 swing advantage to inceptors. So durability is mostly a wash.

No it doesn't, you need a 4+ FNP to equal a 2+ save.

As for Inceptors, you also have to consider multi-damage weapons.

"Before I say anything else.

SilverAlien wrote:If it turned every wound by an inferno weapon into a mortal wound, it'd almost be good enough to give rubrics equal firepower in rapid fire range. Not quite as good, but almost. +1 str wouldn't be enough either, +2 might shift the balance in a couple matchups but again not that much.

An entire unit shooting nothing but mortal wounds with AP-2 and all this gets of you is a "meh"? Are you out of your mind?

Back on topic.
Somebody asked for example of icons and stuff (Jnp?)

Rubriccs already have one up on the inceptors with the icon. The inceptors have nothign equivalent.
Then Atsknf is most likely going to remain some kind of protetction for battleshocks or leadership modification like the butcher cannon array.

VotLW was partly offensive. Potent, but directed vs marines. we're comparing against a marine unit so that won't be a problem either way.
So death to the false emperor could still be offensive. Could be hatred, could be preferred enemy, ie working with shooting as well.
That would be better not in terms of power but in that every unit can use it compared to the previous melee only.
...Or the rumoured more attacks on 6's. (are those exploding?)

Then the icon of flame used to do more damage. It still might, but likely not like it used to given how many people complained how bad it was.
So all bets are off on this one. It could give bolters a conflagerate kind of effect, it could cause mortal wounds on a 6.
It could also be a protection. Iirc it was described as being hard to look at in the lore and so could cause enemy units to gain -1 to hit rubrics.
We know that kind of effect is a thing from orcs and it would be fluffy. Or it could replace blessing of tzeentch and improve their armour or invuln sav, who knows.

With just preferred enemy TSons put three wounds into the inceptors at 18 inch. The next turn inceptors kill maybe one rubric.
The inceptors won't want to assault Rubrics as they are utterly worthless in CC vs rubrics with their now 5 attacks vs the rubrics 2+ save and the sorcerer can kill an inceptor a turn, more if you can smite into melee. And their hammer of wrath ain't gonna do gak.
The turn after TSons finish them off and even should one guy stays alive he can't do much of anything.
That's not even counting whatever the icon would do.

Again though, the whole comparison is flawed.
There's not only those two units on the board and killing is most certainly not the only way they are valuable.
And let's not pretend like you can just deepstrike next to any unit you want, bubblewrapping is easier than ever.

X----9"-----R----9"-----/-----9"----C----9"-----X

With R being a rubric and C being cultists, you can leave a whopping 18 inch between those two units and your opponent will NOT be able to deepstrike in between.
That's a straight line and only cultists on one side, but you get the idea. Deepstriking close will not be as easy as people think it is

 Shadelkan wrote:
I gotta say, this is the dumbest thread I've ever read on dakkadakka, yet reminds me why I hardly come here.

No one here knows what's entirely in this new edition, and yet you talk like it's already completely released. Hilarious.

Not knowing everything isnt what its about there is very little in the dark now and there is a huge gap between these units. Unless you think the icon will double thier damage, which is unreasonable to say the least. Notice in the data sheet there is no Mark of Tzeentch. They just have a 5+ invul save which only comes into effect vs AP -3 which is going to be rare.

Tyran wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

Tyran wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

SilverAlien wrote:
Tougher than plague marines? No they are not. If I must I'll be glad to go through and show that, there is not a single weapon in the game rubrics are tougher against.

Lasguns in open terrain is one, although I was actually thinking about Rubrics vs Inceptors.

You realize a 3+ save and a 5+ FNP beats a 2+ save, correct?

Inceptors are a different story, but my point is that the rubrics toughness doesn't mitigate their poor firepower, as plague marines are cheaper, have roughly as much firepower (including the rubric's sorc), and are quite a bit tougher than either.

Inceptors actually have the same rough durability vs lasgun fire in the open. Rubrics get a 2+ save, but inceptors have more wounds overall, and have 2w each so they can take a wound without losing firepower. Plasma and other high AP single damage weapons favor rubrics, but str 4/5 or 8/9 swing advantage to inceptors. So durability is mostly a wash.

No it doesn't, you need a 4+ FNP to equal a 2+ save.

As for Inceptors, you also have to consider multi-damage weapons.

Oh wow my bad, I don't know why I had it backwards in my head like that. Major screw up on my part. Should've checked the numbers to be safe.

Multi damage weapons also bypass the tsons saves, so I was giving them a small advantage there. Still, not convinced either is more durable overall, just situationally more durable.

 Roknar wrote:
"Before I say anything else.

SilverAlien wrote:If it turned every wound by an inferno weapon into a mortal wound, it'd almost be good enough to give rubrics equal firepower in rapid fire range. Not quite as good, but almost. +1 str wouldn't be enough either, +2 might shift the balance in a couple matchups but again not that much.

An entire unit shooting nothing but mortal wounds with AP-2 and all this gets of you is a "meh"? Are you out of your mind?

Back on topic.
Somebody asked for example of icons and stuff (Jnp?)

Rubriccs already have one up on the inceptors with the icon. The inceptors have nothign equivalent.
Then Atsknf is most likely going to remain some kind of protetction for battleshocks or leadership modification like the butcher cannon array.

VotLW was partly offensive. Potent, but directed vs marines. we're comparing against a marine unit so that won't be a problem either way.
So death to the false emperor could still be offensive. Could be hatred, could be preferred enemy, ie working with shooting as well.
That would be better not in terms of power but in that every unit can use it compared to the previous melee only.
...Or the rumoured more attacks on 6's. (are those exploding?)

Then the icon of flame used to do more damage. It still might, but likely not like it used to given how many people complained how bad it was.
So all bets are off on this one. It could give bolters a conflagerate kind of effect, it could cause mortal wounds on a 6.
It could also be a protection. Iirc it was described as being hard to look at in the lore and so could cause enemy units to gain -1 to hit rubrics.
We know that kind of effect is a thing from orcs and it would be fluffy. Or it could replace blessing of tzeentch and improve their armour or invuln sav, who knows.

With just preferred enemy TSons put three wounds into the inceptors at 18 inch. The next turn inceptors kill maybe one rubric.
The inceptors won't want to assault Rubrics as they are utterly worthless in CC vs rubrics with their now 5 attacks vs the rubrics 2+ save and the sorcerer can kill an inceptor a turn, more if you can smite into melee. And their hammer of wrath ain't gonna do gak.
The turn after TSons finish them off and even should one guy stays alive he can't do much of anything.
That's not even counting whatever the icon would do.

Again though, the whole comparison is flawed.
There's not only those two units on the board and killing is most certainly not the only way they are valuable.
And let's not pretend like you can just deepstrike next to any unit you want, bubblewrapping is easier than ever.

X----9"-----R----9"-----/-----9"----C----9"-----X

With R being a rubric and C being cultists, you can leave a whopping 18 inch between those two units and your opponent will NOT be able to deepstrike in between.
That's a straight line and only cultists on one side, but you get the idea. Deepstriking close will not be as easy as people think it is

Show your math there is no way Inceptors are losing 3 wounds with rerolling 1s at 18" they only get 4 shots. At most its 1.2 including smite.

 Roknar wrote:
"Before I say anything else.

SilverAlien wrote:If it turned every wound by an inferno weapon into a mortal wound, it'd almost be good enough to give rubrics equal firepower in rapid fire range. Not quite as good, but almost. +1 str wouldn't be enough either, +2 might shift the balance in a couple matchups but again not that much.

An entire unit shooting nothing but mortal wounds with AP-2 and all this gets of you is a "meh"? Are you out of your mind?

Note the wording: every wound into a mortal wound. A mortal wounds only advantage is ignoring saves. In every scenario I ran the numbers for, the rubrics still can't match the firepower of the inceptors.

So if the rubrics totally ignores all armor saves, they still struggle. That's how awful their firepower is comparatively. I don't think you realize just how pitiful the rubrics firepower is by comparison. They are really really sad.

My god, reading back at the posts made in the time I wrote that makes me regret spending so much time on it. This thread could just as well be a traditio thread, except for chaos.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
"Before I say anything else.

SilverAlien wrote:If it turned every wound by an inferno weapon into a mortal wound, it'd almost be good enough to give rubrics equal firepower in rapid fire range. Not quite as good, but almost. +1 str wouldn't be enough either, +2 might shift the balance in a couple matchups but again not that much.

An entire unit shooting nothing but mortal wounds with AP-2 and all this gets of you is a "meh"? Are you out of your mind?

Note the wording: every wound into a mortal wound. A mortal wounds only advantage is ignoring saves. In every scenario I ran the numbers for, the rubrics still can't match the firepower of the inceptors.

So if the rubrics totally ignores all armor saves, they still struggle. That's how awful their firepower is comparatively. I don't think you realize just how pitiful the rubrics firepower is by comparison. They are really really sad.

Yes as best I can tell 3.2 of the 8 power points comes from the Sorcerer.

 Roknar wrote:
My god, reading back at the posts made in the time I wrote that makes me regret spending so much time on it. This thread could just as well be a traditio thread, except for chaos.

So... you can't actually show any reason mathematically the rubrics aren't hot garbage, we've all basically accepted the icon isn't going to magically double their firepower, so the next step is insulting people by comparing them to someone who hasn't even been in this thread. Who quite a few of you seem to take remarkable joy in constantly harassing regardless. Honestly, if that constitutes a good usage of your time it is literally impossible for anything you do to be considered a waste by comparison.

SilverAlien wrote:


Oh wow my bad, I don't know why I had it backwards in my head like that. Major screw up on my part. Should've checked the numbers to be safe.

Multi damage weapons also bypass the tsons saves, so I was giving them a small advantage there. Still, not convinced either is more durable overall, just situationally more durable.

The extra damage is far more punishing on the Inceptors, as they pay premium for that extra wound and they have so little models.

Tyran wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:


Oh wow my bad, I don't know why I had it backwards in my head like that. Major screw up on my part. Should've checked the numbers to be safe.

Multi damage weapons also bypass the tsons saves, so I was giving them a small advantage there. Still, not convinced either is more durable overall, just situationally more durable.

The extra damage is far more punishing on the Inceptors, as they pay premium for that extra wound and they have so little models.

Fair enough, I think it depends on weapon. A d3 weapon for example will always negate the rubric's save, but will still deal 1 w to the inceptor 33% of the time. I'd say only the d6 or flat 2/3 damage weapons are dramatically more punishing for inceptors.

Is anyone taking into account the scorcerer using his psychic power in melee?

Nothing in the leaked rules prevents a psyker from attempting to manifest powers based on enemy proximity. So remember that if he survives a single round of combat that he will be blasting that unit again.

Why would the Inceptors close to CC, when they can kite with superior mobility?

I guess one answer is to finish off a highly weakened Rubric squad, but still.

 Lance845 wrote:
Is anyone taking into account the scorcerer using his psychic power in melee?

Nothing in the leaked rules prevents a psyker from attempting to manifest powers based on enemy proximity. So remember that if he survives a single round of combat that he will be blasting that unit again.

Its only a wound a turn on average and risks wiping out almost the entire squad.

Tyran wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The only function of power is to be able to quickly make a game without worrying about making a list. The simple fact that it doesn't considers weapons or upgrades should tell you how useless it is for actual balance.

Power is considering that fact that all upgrades are taken for the power point listed.

Power doesn't really considers that, because you cannot assume that the units being used will have all the upgrades or weapons. And there are units whose entire role is dependent on upgrades and weapons.

Better question, why would the Power Rank NOT be made without all those upgrades that unit size allows for?

Tyran wrote:For example Tyranid termagants, there is literally a difference of 3 times the firepower between a devilgant and the standard version, and they are going to have the same power cost.

Sure they do, NOW. But in a month or so, will they be so different in the new datasheets? We've seen that Power Weapons are more balanced out between Str bonus and AP then they have ever been. Aside from GW's normal ability to shoot itself in the mouth through its foot when it comes to balance, what tells you to assume that there will be such an actual power difference between the different GunGants?

That mental image LMAO OH GOD

Also things like chaos daemons will allow you to summon them by way of keywords and if you're not in matched play you don't pay points ts for the side board.

How many spells can the inceptors counter in a round?

Last edition mark of tzeench gave a +1 to invulnerable saves, if that stayed the same then rubric marines would NEVER have less than a 4+ save. Meaning they will always have better saves against missiles, lascannons, melta guns, plasma guns, and all the other high strength good ap shooting that exists in the game.

A tri-las predator destroys inceptors outright, but would be a horrible idea to throw at rubric marines since every damage above 1 is wasted and they'll have a 4++ in the open.

As for the banner, the rubrics are automitons, held together by sorcery. Similar units in AOS can take banners that return fallen members to life.

Counter an extra d3 models returning for free every turn.

You have no clue what their wargear does, and I've seen what thematic and perfectly viable options are available to draw from as game mechanics.

As has been stated many times this thread, the whining is unnecessary and we don't have enough information to actually back up your claim of imbalance.

Good day, ladies and gentlemen.

Power level is with upgrades included, confirmed in the first live Q&A.

Inceptors are not better than TS on paper. Plz read my first post on page 2.
Multiwounds isn't wasted on TS in partcular due to their +1 AS on 1 damage weapons.

Bare in mind this kind of vacuum model says current TS are good so take with a grain of salt.