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It's a big galaxy. I don't mind not knowing who Cawl was until tecently because we don't even know the name of a single currently sitting high lord of Terra. If they aren't important enough to know about why would Cawl be? Its only this specific (and absurd) turn of events that would ever bring out attention to him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*by currently sitting highlords, I mean those sitting before rowvoat came back

Backgroundwise they're terrible.

Absolutely terrible. Cawl seems to be a gigantic Mary Sue for the Imperium and it's kind of cringeworthy.

He's 10,000 years old - what? I remember reading somewhere that after 1,500 years they tend to put Tech PRiests down as they either go full terminator or bat-guano insane...and here Cawl is, 10,000 years old and fit as a fiddle.

He supposedly had the relevant knowledge from Bobby Girlyman, who conveniently woke up to put it into play - hang on a minute.

Are you telling me that a random, previously unheard of Tech-Priest and a Primarch who showed zero interest in the whole geneseed side of things are more capable of producing new super-marines without flaw than....

Say....

Fabius Bile? The guy who BEFORE the Heresy was widely regarded as second only to the Emperor in his understanding of genetics and how geneseed worked? The guy who's had ten thousand years and training from various sources including Dark Eldar Haemonculi to get things done. The guy who cloned Primarchs?

It's a giant gaping hole of Lore that GW forgot Fabius even existed for.

Bleh.

That's the first thing that occured to me to during Cawl's release. A 10,000 years old tech-priest? Really? Ugh, says the reader of 40k for 20 years now.

Obvious Mary Sue setup for Primaris marines, which could have easily has more engrossing fluff that what they got.

At least they are a good opportunity for the Alpha Legion to infiltrate them with the tech stolen from the Raven Guard, setting up a new Heresy. It'd be about time the Alpha Legion stopped twirling their moustaches, and do something worth a damn.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
That's the first thing that occured to me to during Cawl's release. A 10,000 years old tech-priest? Really? Ugh, says the reader of 40k for 20 years now.

I hate that too, it really doesn't fit the existing fluff. But my headcanon is that he's kind of Ship of Theseus. All mechanical and organic bits have been replaced many, many times. Nothing of the original Belisarius Cawl remains, except his vast knowledge, backed up in databanks and auxilary cortexes.

It seems pretty clear to me that GW are going to use this as a trojan update to space marines.

They want to keep marines as the tough elite army in the game and so they've effectively given them a rules adjustment and a model adjustment without invalidating their old lines.

But I fully expect the primaris rules to be the standard marine rules in 5 years.

This way they get to effectively have marine players buy their armies twice over. How else do you keep selling to players that already have everything.

Hellebore wrote:
It seems pretty clear to me that GW are going to use this as a trojan update to space marines.

They want to keep marines as the tough elite army in the game and so they've effectively given them a rules adjustment and a model adjustment without invalidating their old lines.

But I fully expect the primaris rules to be the standard marine rules in 5 years.

This way they get to effectively have marine players buy their armies twice over. How else do you keep selling to players that already have everything.

Agreed. Everything is getting scaled up, not just space marines. Look at the nurgle cultists AKA pox walkers. Online they appear to be as tall as, if not taller, than today's standard marines. It honestly makes me mad.

Today a marine and a PRIMARIS have different point values. Next update they will close the point gap between them, making PRIMARIS marines the only sane choice. After that, no more standard marines, just antiquated looking models

PS: I wonder how they'll write a CSM version of PRIMARIS marines being developed at the exact same time. If chaos has no access to them, I will change my tune and accept them as a truly innocent seperate troop choice. But you couldn't model these guys as CSM today because they have aquilas on their chests.

This is a very tight poll with the community clearly very split

I saw the primaris marines in the flesh so to speak.

The Captain is terrible. He has the pot belly of a middle aged airsoft player

Too stupid from the fluff standpoint.
"The story is moving forward" is not an argument, both WHFB and 40k new fluff is quite bad.

Nonetheless, I am intrigued by the new edition they herald.

Weird poll question... I think it's a Positive release, but I still personally hate the Primarus marines.

Seeing that the new DG are smaller than the Primaris by a significant amount, I'm not sure was GW's game with the Primaris is. Are they just going to outclass Chaos Space Marines from now on in terms of size/strength? Are Chaos going to get upgraded in a future release (making this new release redundant)? Are Chaos just going to get traitor Primaris at some point and we'll just have two scales of Space Marines running around from now on?

Like others have said, I'm pretty torn about this release, and it leaves a lot of uncertainty about investing in either of these ranges for the time being.

 Accolade wrote:
Seeing that the new DG are smaller than the Primaris by a significant amount, I'm not sure was GW's game with the Primaris is. Are they just going to outclass Chaos Space Marines from now on in terms of size/strength? Are Chaos going to get upgraded in a future release (making this new release redundant)? Are Chaos just going to get traitor Primaris at some point and we'll just have two scales of Space Marines running around from now on?

Like others have said, I'm pretty torn about this release, and it leaves a lot of uncertainty about investing in either of these ranges for the time being.

I think the Primaris quite simply are going to be a more elite choice for Space Marine players, similarly to how Guard players got the Militarum Tempestus.

The Primaris are not going to replace the 'ordinary' Marines. Ordinary Marines are GW's most profitable product line by far. It is way too risky for GW to mess with that, they would be gambling with their entire existance as a company. They are not going to do that.

Model range perspective :

Mostly Negative - The only range that did not need a huge boost of models was Marines - now even more resources will be allocated to slightly large Marines as well as all the other Marine ranges. Those Factions still without basic palstic models - less chance of new stuff. Especially since they will undoubatedly have to do special snowflake models for the Special snowflake chapters.

Background:: Meh - its ok, could be worse but so many more interesting things in 40k to do.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Seeing that the new DG are smaller than the Primaris by a significant amount, I'm not sure was GW's game with the Primaris is. Are they just going to outclass Chaos Space Marines from now on in terms of size/strength? Are Chaos going to get upgraded in a future release (making this new release redundant)? Are Chaos just going to get traitor Primaris at some point and we'll just have two scales of Space Marines running around from now on?

Like others have said, I'm pretty torn about this release, and it leaves a lot of uncertainty about investing in either of these ranges for the time being.

I think the Primaris quite simply are going to be a more elite choice for Space Marine players, similarly to how Guard players got the Militarum Tempestus.

The Primaris are not going to replace the 'ordinary' Marines. Ordinary Marines are GW's most profitable product line by far. It is way too risky for GW to mess with that, they would be gambling with their entire existance as a company. They are not going to do that.

Scions are even a troops choice in Index Imperium 2.

is it just moe or are the people whom are negitive about Primaris Marines mostly non Marine players? tempted to start a poll with more options

BrianDavion wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
Seeing that the new DG are smaller than the Primaris by a significant amount, I'm not sure was GW's game with the Primaris is. Are they just going to outclass Chaos Space Marines from now on in terms of size/strength? Are Chaos going to get upgraded in a future release (making this new release redundant)? Are Chaos just going to get traitor Primaris at some point and we'll just have two scales of Space Marines running around from now on?

Like others have said, I'm pretty torn about this release, and it leaves a lot of uncertainty about investing in either of these ranges for the time being.

I think the Primaris quite simply are going to be a more elite choice for Space Marine players, similarly to how Guard players got the Militarum Tempestus.

The Primaris are not going to replace the 'ordinary' Marines. Ordinary Marines are GW's most profitable product line by far. It is way too risky for GW to mess with that, they would be gambling with their entire existance as a company. They are not going to do that.

is it just moe or are the people whom are negitive about Primaris Marines mostly non Marine players? tempted to start a poll with more options

Two things are not mutually exclusive

I have Space Wolves (without Wolfy Wolf Wolves), Dark Angels and Ultramarine armies as well Sisters, Guard, and all Xenos.

 Accolade wrote:
Seeing that the new DG are smaller than the Primaris by a significant amount, I'm not sure was GW's game with the Primaris is. Are they just going to outclass Chaos Space Marines from now on in terms of size/strength? Are Chaos going to get upgraded in a future release (making this new release redundant)? Are Chaos just going to get traitor Primaris at some point and we'll just have two scales of Space Marines running around from now on?

Like others have said, I'm pretty torn about this release, and it leaves a lot of uncertainty about investing in either of these ranges for the time being.

especially with Primogenitor coming out as a novel, if chaos primaris analogues are to be a thing, I'd hope The Fabulous Bill should be responsible.


And Cawl is irksome. A new character, fine - and he can be retroactively added to both 40k and heresy novels, but I agree a 10,000 year old tech priest is a background no-no. More importantly, he is just too good at everything - designing armour, fine, but if he's a magos artificer designing super-armour (gullimans plate and Mk10), he's not (or shouldn't) simultaneously be a ballistcae (his name is on the bolt rifle pattern) and a biologis on a par with fabius bile. I really, really wish theyd given a nod to the cursed founding, afriel strain or raptor project and implied soneone else did the biology for him.

Models are great, rules suck and their fluff is awful.

Oh...and Cawl also figure out about the Pylons, which was apparently not something anyone else knew (aside from inquisitors Qixos and Eisenhorn and basically any other inquisitor with dealings with cadia prior to the gathering storm series.

The annoying thing is, he could have found Gullimans self-assembly armour, just not built it himself. He's introduced as an explorator archmagos - a sort of tech priest indiana jones - so the iron revenant could have had all sorts of stuff on it prior to abbadon blowing it up.

Equally, the gene tech for the primaris could have been commisioned by gulliman, in secret....and never deployed due to his "death" - it didn't need to be Cawl he commisioned it from. In fact (especially the "new armour design" bit) it makes no sense it not being Zagreus Kane he asked to do it. But if you woke Gulliman Up and he then said "by the way there should be some secret labs left [here]" that would make more sense to me.

 SeraphimXIX wrote:
Models are great, rules suck and their fluff is awful.

What do you like about the models?

The captain has a beer belly and the interceptors look they are from the cast of Rollerball.


Also btw the Deathguard are also upscaled. Side by side with the Primaris they are not much smaller.

If they were just a new updated range for existing marines, they would be fine.

The new background is garbage however and just results in all sorts of stupid absurdities, particularly when coupled with the Harry Potter-esque Hocus Pocus-ey Faux-latin naming conventions GW seems increasingly intent on pushing with evey Imperial release.

Leaked fluff has Primaris as Astartes 2.0 initiated during the Heresy to bolster the loyalist forces, but the Heresy ended before the Primaris could be fielded. After their numbers were full enough, they participated in the Indominus Crusade and were greatly depleted in numbers. At the time of Roboute's "resurrection", the Primaris have been in active service and in circulation for millennia. Also, there is a discrepancy in the Imperial calendar, which has a thousand year gap in what day it actually is throughout the Imperium. Guilliman didn't just wake up yesterday, it was 112 years earlier than the current narrative.

So ... yeah.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Leaked fluff has Primaris as Astartes 2.0 initiated during the Heresy to bolster the loyalist forces, but the Heresy ended before the Primaris could be fielded. After their numbers were full enough, they participated in the Indominus Crusade and were greatly depleted in numbers. At the time of Roboute's "resurrection", the Primaris have been in active service and in circulation for millennia. Also, there is a discrepancy in the Imperial calendar, which has a thousand year gap in what day it actually is throughout the Imperium. Guilliman didn't just wake up yesterday, it was 112 years earlier than the current narrative.

So ... yeah.

SJ

Incorrect. Primaris Marines where developed in the immediate aftermath of the Heresy, per Gulliman's orders. they where not DEPLOYED however, and mostly kept in stasis unless being brought out for training. (presumably they wheren't deployed earlier because Gulliman's approval was needed) the disreprecny in the calender I suspect is going to mostly be used to explain some oddities in the dates (things like "well the Ultramarines second company where supoidvly at Cadia, Damnos and here all in M.41 999)

Model wise they're the best looking space marines I've ever seen. They've tempted me back into the game even after what AoS did to WFB. I even picked up a box of Tempestus Scions at the Yodabashi the other day.

Damn you GW and your plastic crack!

Very negative.
Marines are the LAST faction that needs more stuff.

Some factions still lack plastics for a decent chunk of their range (or even their entire range) there is no point model-wise.

Some factions didn't get anything new in forever now, there is no point innovation-wise.

Most factions just don't have nearly as many options as marines do. and then marines gets even more.

And the primaris are not even intresting! they are marines with two wounds and better guns, but they are highly standardized. there is nothing they do that's all that special or unique, except the inceptors who outright copy what is a crisis suit.


Primaris add nothing new to the game, and the little they add to the marines is directly by stepping on xeno's territory.
They are further marinazing a game that is already too marine dominant.
I can't think on a single faction not MORE needing of new releases than the marines.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Very negative.
Marines are the LAST faction that needs more stuff.

Some factions still lack plastics for a decent chunk of their range (or even their entire range) there is no point model-wise.

Some factions didn't get anything new in forever now, there is no point innovation-wise.

Most factions just don't have nearly as many options as marines do. and then marines gets even more.

And the primaris are not even intresting! they are marines with two wounds and better guns, but they are highly standardized. there is nothing they do that's all that special or unique, except the inceptors who outright copy what is a crisis suit.


Primaris add nothing new to the game, and the little they add to the marines is directly by stepping on xeno's territory.
They are further marinazing a game that is already too marine dominant.
I can't think on a single faction not MORE needing of new releases than the marines.

This is so true. Diversity of armies being collected is a key part of the enjoyment of this game to me.

There are already enough games of power armour vs power armour, and I suspect these Adeptus Restartes will just make that worse

The grimdark thing to do would be to have Primaris Marines be infected or corrupted somehow, or perhaps be some kind of secret army for Cawl that he's going to use for his own nefarious purposes.

You know some of them are going to fall in any case and you'll get Primarus Chaos Marines.

Awful fluff, awful motivations, ok but stupidly huge and boring minis.

 Greenizbest wrote:
Positive, the old SM models are way too small considering they are supposed to be 8ft tall death machines but are the same height as Imperial Guardsmen.

I wish they would have just replaced the current Marines outright instead of this weirdness in the lore with 2 Marine types.

Why not just replace the guardsmen with smaller ones? They need update anyway, and less people would be affected. New armour and better proportioned marines could have been the same scale as existing ones, just it wouldn't be such a grand cash grab GW loves.

It's a miniatures game, not action man. Everything got smaller now because of moronis marines.

Plumbumbarum wrote:
Awful fluff, awful motivations, ok but stupidly huge and boring minis.

 Greenizbest wrote:
Positive, the old SM models are way too small considering they are supposed to be 8ft tall death machines but are the same height as Imperial Guardsmen.

I wish they would have just replaced the current Marines outright instead of this weirdness in the lore with 2 Marine types.

Why not just replace the guardsmen with smaller ones? They need update anyway, and less people would be affected. New armour and better proportioned marines could have been the same scale as existing ones, just it wouldn't be such a grand cash grab GW loves.

It's a miniatures game, not action man. Everything got smaller now because of moronis marines.

Because people are automatically thinking "MAKE MARINES BIGGA!" and completely neglect that humans (and tau infantry) are far too big in comparison to anything else in the game, including their own vehicles,battlesuits, etc

Could be worse - could be Bolt Action - the vehicles took tiny when next to the official figures.

Negative.

Uber-Marines steal the Marine´s limelight. In a few years all marine players are expected to field Uber-Marines in GW stores. Old school marines will be frowned upon. Seriously, GW has an unhealthy size fetish. Do they have to compensate something?