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So I have been playing since 2nd edition (and early in second edition when there were only a few codex) and if you read the leak in the comments section of http://natfka.blogspot.com/2017/05/grey-knights-ahriman-daemons-and-more.htm which has basically all the rules and codexs then you might be freaking out right now. I reviewed all of the Chaos stuff and I was extremely disappointed. I play thousand sons and Tzeentch daemons and I am unimpressed with what they have done. The rubics still seem over-costed when you consider they have to pay 2 points for their weapon, the sorcerer has to pay 12 points for a force sword and can only use the baby smite ability. There is also no Thousand Son powers (but there is Deathguard!?!?), and the Tzeentch powers for the deamons seem sub-par. Then I remembered that I lived though this before..........

The transition from 2nd to 3rd had the same thing. A generic book to create generic armies that lost much of the character of the old armies and seem to be incomplete. Well this time around even more so. But to me 8th edition will not be a failure if at launch it is sub-par or unbalanced. There are 600+ units in this game and play testing all of them sufficiently is probably not realistically possible for the staff at GW without it taking years. GW is going to need feed back from players to truly balance the game, which is what they said they are going to do. If you have been playing long enough you remember when GW would try to shut down websites that leaked info, and now GW is providing "leaks". Also, in some of their faction focus they seem to expressly acknowledge major issues (aka knight armies unbalance, etc.) which would be unheard of at the time of 4th/5th. So I am going to give GW the benefit of the doubt this time to see if they actually do things differently. What I would like to see is:

1. A Codex that fixes any initial launch simplification for each of the major factions within the next two years or so, including things like real psyker powers, warloard traits, faction specific FOC, etc. to bring back the flavor.

2. at about a year from now, a real fix for any unbalanced (under or over costed) units. And make no mistake, there will be lots of units at launch which are over or under costed by points or Power. I will give GW a year because realistically they will need feed back from 100s of 1000s of games from the community to really balance everything just do to the sheer number of units and variations of those units in the game.

If at this time-ish next year GW has not taken any action on community feed back (as they said they would) and have only put out like 2 codex (probably both marine) then it is safe to say that nothing has changed and maybe it is time to truly leave the game for good.

Also, I don't play AOS, but anyone who does, how has that experience shaped what you think will happen with 40k, in terms of support and rules from GW?

Thoughts?

I wouldn't base too much of the future on how AoS has gone. GW has already taken this edition 1000% more seriously than they did AoS at launch, and have gotten rid of a few of the most annoying parts of it in the conversion to 40k.

Also, it seems like they're handling the codes releases much differently than AoS. In AoS the codexes are rather superfluous to the game, and the generals handbook has what really matters. I dunno.

The reason you're hearing more cringe than normal is because:

1) this is the age of the internet. Back then if you wanted to make your displeasure known, it's largely restricted to angry letters (as in post-and-mail) to the company or going around your local scene and complaining about it a lot. Since the former is basically a private affair and the latter is a rather embarrassing experience, it will definitely be a lot less noticeable than right now. A lot of people (like us) will want our opinions known online even though we probably wouldn't do so in live company.

2.) A lot of the old guard who have "lived through it' have actually left. GW either cheesed them out with the crap rules of 7E or priced them out of the hobby with the recent prices. In fact all of my RL friends who have played since 3rd edition have since all left the hobby, which is why I'm bumming around here. Not saying all of them have left, but a significant chunk have. Back then a lot of people do remember 2nd edition and still had the old codexes, now the vast majority of players are, bare minimum, 5th edition vintage, and a lot are actually from end of 6th-7th. GW also has shifted gears and been trying to market the game to a wider, newer audience, whereas before it was very much word of mouth. Hence I'm willing to bet a lot of the current players haven't actually lived through this.

3.) Finally, balanced or not, a change of such upheaval will definitely be jarring for people. For better or for worse, it is still a massive change. And people don't like change even if they know objectively it will be for the better (and this change is far from Objective to say the least) so some anxiety is to be expected.

GW is going to make possibly it's biggest move in the coming weeks, and this could be pivotal for the hobby in general. But for good or for bad all we can do is watch now.

Anyone who imagines over 600 units being totally fine at launch just isn't being realistic.

Their loss.

Good points raised.
I was one of those starting in second and saw the 3rd edition changing of the guard.
Yes, the generic rules for each army I would expect to be a bit disappointing but that is typical of any established game going through a rules overhaul.
I must admit that lately GW has been publishing faster than ever so it will be interesting to see how they handle things.

I had suggested in the past to publish unit by unit and formation by formation rules as their means of update.
Like in WD if they have one for each army it could give some real-time balance to the game and then compile a codex as a new model wave push goes out.

For some silly reason I am not as concerned probably because I am FAR happier with how they are approaching 8th over 6th and 7th editions.
I played part way through 6th and stopped.
7th I gave it a try and disliked it even more.
GW has little to lose with me and everything to gain.
Heck, Armageddon Shadow War got me buying models I never dreamed buying (as an army, but as a team ).

I've played 4th and 7th ed. I play nids. When I first heard about the changes I was optimistic.

But when they started leaking things, I went more and more pesimistic. Today I saw Tyranids index. I'll just say that, when you buy flyrants and mawlocs during 7th ed, and GW claims they will balance the game in the 8th ed, what you expect is not the gakky rules that virtually everything will hit your flyrant and your Mawloc needs to deploy more than 1" from enemies and it only does 0-3 impacts to the units that are within 2". And that's just to name a few units. I expected to be dissapointed, but not that much.

So, now again, GW says it wants its custommers happy, then nerfs everything its customers have paid for (like they did from 4th to 5th with carnifexes or from 5th to 6th with tervigons). I do really hope this changes in the following months, other way, I will leave.

In relation with that, I'm considering playing fanmade codices, like lots of Fantasy players decided to do after AOS was released. Yep, I'm refering to something like the 9th age of warhammer fantasy. The most wonderful part is that these type of codices ALREADY exist, and are pretty more balanced than the 7th ed were. So, if GW fails me again (like it has done with this index) during the following months, I'll abandon GW rules and go play fanmade, which I'm convinced it will be better than 8th anyway.

I lived the Ravening Hordes for WHFB and I frankly found that release way better.
Said this, and even taking in account the almost zero trust I have for the design team, I think that the best thing is to wait and see.
No army burning or something like that

I just hope that the following codices are not copypaste of the same old even when a given unit is not functional. In other words, I agree completely that is to be expected that many units may not not well-tuned in day 1. My problem is that I doubt the design team is even aware of what is wrong in unit X, and if it is, these are people prone to over-adjustments in one direction or another.

To be honest I was super hopeful when the announcement came. As the rules leaks started I was getting happier and happier, and now that the full leaks have happened...i feel like we're heading back into 3rd edition again. The DA rules seem like they ripped out what made them unique and are pushing the different marines back to generic space marines. The guard leaks seem like taking tanks is gonna be way too expensive. I'm trying not to be overly pessimistic, but if I'm being honest my enthusiasm has waned considerably.

Darkagl1 wrote:
To be honest I was super hopeful when the announcement came. As the rules leaks started I was getting happier and happier, and now that the full leaks have happened...i feel like we're heading back into 3rd edition again. The DA rules seem like they ripped out what made them unique and are pushing the different marines back to generic space marines. The guard leaks seem like taking tanks is gonna be way too expensive. I'm trying not to be overly pessimistic, but if I'm being honest my enthusiasm has waned considerably.

I think that we should focus on good design - it the rules are quick, balanced and model the gameworld sufficiently well.

After a redesign, is normal that things will look more "vanilla" but probably the codices will add more flavour. Is better to have less now, get accustomed, and add new complexity later. This is for the sake of the game, the players, and the designers.
Maybe I am biased because when I started a Khorne Berzerker was just a fearless marine with pistol+CCW and 1 additional attack. Half edition later, like 3-4 additional rules were piled on that.

My great problem is that I keep seeing clunky stuff like the Obliterators or that repulsive Ork weapon in which you roll 4 dice and players alternate the choice of the Stat the roll is assigned to. This is little Timmy homebrew tier.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:
To be honest I was super hopeful when the announcement came. As the rules leaks started I was getting happier and happier, and now that the full leaks have happened...i feel like we're heading back into 3rd edition again. The DA rules seem like they ripped out what made them unique and are pushing the different marines back to generic space marines. The guard leaks seem like taking tanks is gonna be way too expensive. I'm trying not to be overly pessimistic, but if I'm being honest my enthusiasm has waned considerably.

I think that we should focus on good design - it the rules are quick, balanced and model the gameworld sufficiently well.

After a redesign, is normal that things will look more "vanilla" but probably the codices will add more flavour. Is better to have less now, get accustomed, and add new complexity later. This is for the sake of the game, the players, and the designers.
Maybe I am biased because when I started a Khorne Berzerker was just a fearless marine with pistol+CCW and 1 additional attack. Half edition later, like 3-4 additional rules were piled on that.

My great problems is that I keep seeing clunky stuff like the Obliterators or that repulsive Ork weapon in which you roll 4 dice and players alternate the choice of the Stat the roll is assigned to. This is little Timmy homebrew tier.

I'm trying to stay positive. Jink just seems so bleh and that's the fundamental ravenwing change so that seems bad. The tank issue could be fixed with points changes eventually or maybe I'm undervaluing them.

Darkagl1 wrote:

I'm trying to stay positive. Jink just seems so bleh and that's the fundamental ravenwing change so that seems bad. The tank issue could be fixed with points changes eventually or maybe I'm undervaluing them.

The way jink and ravewing interacted was too much. If for flavour you mean that, I am out TBH.

Having played 2nd, a bit of 3rd/4th and then quit...and having played a handful of 7th (just really pushing plastic around -letting someone else tell me the stats, etc.) I'm optimistic about 8th.

The biggest reason you're seeing so much whinging is because you have maybe 70% of the 40K population who have never played a version which isn't just warmed over 3rd ed. (i.e. the basis for stat lines and builds which started with 3rd and ran through 7th).

What saddens me though is that about 80% of the pissing and moaning I've seen has been from people who seem to be currently enjoying meta-driven or loophole-driven armies/benefits, etc. While I see a bit of "oh these guys look a bit expensive", I see far more of "boo, the 30+ models I armed identically to abuse this loophole are invalidated now!". No one is that stupid - anyone building an internet list or some meta-driven nonsense knows damn well when they're found some unintended combo/loophole, etc...and should have been well prepared to have their models invalidated. I admit I'm happy to see some scatter-bike players upset and some marine guys with 400 grav weapons get miffed. Good.

Realistically no one will know how this stuff plays out until the plastic meets the table. Then I'll watch genuine criticisms, etc.

Meh, don't think the rules are going to be worth all the flaming, hating, and whining. I got way tto drawn into the narrative vs matched, WAAC and the kiddy pool .

W8 Ahriman is just Tzeentch sorcerer number X rulewise now?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

Darkagl1 wrote:

I'm trying to stay positive. Jink just seems so bleh and that's the fundamental ravenwing change so that seems bad. The tank issue could be fixed with points changes eventually or maybe I'm undervaluing them.

The way jink and ravewing interacted was too much. If for flavour you mean that, I am out TBH.

Well I personally think there is room for jink to be a worthwhile benefit for the ravenwing while not being the silliness that is rerollable invulnerable saves that it was in 7th and the relatively pointless 5++ It is in 8th. Personally I think either +1 armor when advancing or -1 to get hit when advancing would have been perfectly sound, reasonably flavorful, and tactically meaningful. Part of the issue with 5++ is under the new ap system it just isn't worth what it used to be. Ap3 weapons of 7 are ap-2 now so you'd get a 5+ anyway. Ap2 becomes ap-3 which means jink is a +1 armor bonus there but you have to be catching lascannon shots. Ap1 become -4 which gets the +2 armor bonus in the past jink mattered way more because marines often didn't get the save and mattered for ravenwing because of the reroll. New jink doesn't do that and comes with a non insignificant coat to your own shooting (which is fine). -1 to hit seems perfectly appropriate and would have made me quite happy.

 Elbows wrote:
Having played 2nd, a bit of 3rd/4th and then quit...and having played a handful of 7th (just really pushing plastic around -letting someone else tell me the stats, etc.) I'm optimistic about 8th.

The biggest reason you're seeing so much whinging is because you have maybe 70% of the 40K population who have never played a version which isn't just warmed over 3rd ed. (i.e. the basis for stat lines and builds which started with 3rd and ran through 7th).

What saddens me though is that about 80% of the pissing and moaning I've seen has been from people who seem to be currently enjoying meta-driven or loophole-driven armies/benefits, etc. While I see a bit of "oh these guys look a bit expensive", I see far more of "boo, the 30+ models I armed identically to abuse this loophole are invalidated now!". No one is that stupid - anyone building an internet list or some meta-driven nonsense knows damn well when they're found some unintended combo/loophole, etc...and should have been well prepared to have their models invalidated. I admit I'm happy to see some scatter-bike players upset and some marine guys with 400 grav weapons get miffed. Good.

Realistically no one will know how this stuff plays out until the plastic meets the table. Then I'll watch genuine criticisms, etc.

Sing it brother. Yeah I noticed most of the bemoaning are coming from people with either current hot units (Wraithknights, Flyrants, Free SM Transports) because what they bought is now no longer an "I win" button. For me, my Zerks got nerfed by 2 editions, then nerfed again by a bad codex. I am HYPED to finally be able to run my World Eaters again, since the stats for them just look utterly insane. Same goes for my Genestealers led by a Broodlord; that hasn't been a thing for three whole editions now! It wasn't even powerful when it was a thing, but it was fun, and now there's a chance it might actually be viable. And not to mention I can finally run a footslogging Daemon Prince without it being a comical waste of points (it probably is still a waste of points but at least it's not a flat out insult to the opponent). And don't even get me started on Old One Eye or the Carnifexes.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
And don't even get me started on Old One Eye or the Carnifexes.

I would like to know what exactly do you see in the carnifexes entry to say they are that good. 8 wounds, T7 and 3 attacks looks like a ton of cr*p to my eyes. Not to mention how badly the "new" (copypasted from 4th ed) insctintive behavior affects it.

For one, the Fex actually has 4 attacks base, and can go up to 5 attacks with two pairs of scything talons. Another thing is that the screamer-killer (minus the screaming part) comes to just over 90 points for a giant living wrecking ball. Unlike other gribblies, the fex doesn't lose effectiveness with the loss of wounds. It also has Movement 7" and can be taken in broods that no longer have to remain together (one of the biggest problems they have right now is they're stuck in a unit). I love the fact that they're actually spammable for something that's essentially a monstrous creature.

I ignore Instinctive behaviour. Any good Tyranid player would always be ready to either cancel or mitigate it's effects. If it actually becomes a problem, then something has gone seriously wrong outside of a unit choice.

Agree completely with the op.
Started second.
Lived through third... Dropped out. Came back maybe ten years later. Dropped out. Came back a few years later.
This new edition seems promising.
The new corporate attitude is most promising.
The problem with the hobby now seems to be the attitude of newer players. These people often have a collectible card game mindset. Their focus is on list building and meta forecasting. When I began the mindset by and large was from RPG games.
Totally different animal.

I played Lost and the Damned and my army was rendered illegal when the Gav codex came out. I skipped playing them for 4th/5th and went for Orks.

Massive gutting of options isn't exactly good for your image.

Everyone is going to complain someway or another about their armies they play, when it comes to the new edition. I have heard a lot of Imperial and Xenos players as well complain.

We don't know the real rules yet. GW, is finally listening to its players and fan base and hopefully have fixed the game from many OP armies.

Again, everyone will complain and say things aren't fair, the rules haven't been published yet, let's just wait.

SwarmHead wrote:
I've played 4th and 7th ed. I play nids. When I first heard about the changes I was optimistic.

But when they started leaking things, I went more and more pesimistic. Today I saw Tyranids index. I'll just say that, when you buy flyrants and mawlocs during 7th ed, and GW claims they will balance the game in the 8th ed, what you expect is not the gakky rules that virtually everything will hit your flyrant and your Mawloc needs to deploy more than 1" from enemies and it only does 0-3 impacts to the units that are within 2". And that's just to name a few units. I expected to be dissapointed, but not that much.

So, now again, GW says it wants its custommers happy, then nerfs everything its customers have paid for (like they did from 4th to 5th with carnifexes or from 5th to 6th with tervigons). I do really hope this changes in the following months, other way, I will leave.

In relation with that, I'm considering playing fanmade codices, like lots of Fantasy players decided to do after AOS was released. Yep, I'm refering to something like the 9th age of warhammer fantasy. The most wonderful part is that these type of codices ALREADY exist, and are pretty more balanced than the 7th ed were. So, if GW fails me again (like it has done with this index) during the following months, I'll abandon GW rules and go play fanmade, which I'm convinced it will be better than 8th anyway.

Flyrant was OP. All the Tyranid codex was useless, but the Flyrant was very powerfull. They have toned the Flyrant down and basically have made EVERYTHING else much more usefull. How a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th?! They are one of the most upgraded faction, like Orks!

I play Tau and they are one of the factions that has receive more the nerfbat. And I'm not mad! Thats a necesity for the good of the game! How can people be so blind? Is not what is good for you, is what is good for the game. The greater good!

 Galas wrote:
Is not what is good for you, is what is good for the game. The greater good!

I smell heresy.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
I lived the Ravening Hordes for WHFB and I frankly found that release way better.
Said this, and even taking in account the almost zero trust I have for the design team, I think that the best thing is to wait and see.
No army burning or something like that

I just hope that the following codices are not copypaste of the same old even when a given unit is not functional. In other words, I agree completely that is to be expected that many units may not not well-tuned in day 1. My problem is that I doubt the design team is even aware of what is wrong in unit X, and if it is, these are people prone to over-adjustments in one direction or another.

So much agree with this, but with the caveat that the "flavor" that was eliminated was the OP garbage that made 2nd Ed. unplayable. I also find it funny that 2nd Ed. holdovers are the ones looking forward to 8th the most. They've been trying to forcefeed 2nd Ed. back into 40K since 5th.

Seems to me, 90% of everyone in the army specific threads around the web are saying they got nerfed and vanilla-ed.

So most likely, they got it pretty close to right...

I've played on and off (more off than on for the last 13 years), then Grandma got my boy some Nids for a gift... So, off I go starting my 5th army with the Ad-Mech/Skits. (Don't have enough Necros to play anymore, all orig models, but none of the "cool kid" units it seems. I do however have enough models to run a pure DC 2000 point army, like the old days. Figure with a lil "house rule" help, ye old Waaaghband and GorkaMorka crew could make an appearance, and finally the "boy that conversion really didn't turn out and/or what an awful paint job I did" screw it, make them Chaos figs...

All of them look like a good way to spend a couple of hours with some folk, play with my son, and spend a couple more grand when it is all said and done...

Pedroig wrote:
Seems to me, 90% of everyone in the army specific threads around the web are saying they got nerfed and vanilla-ed.

So most likely, they got it pretty close to right...

I was just about to say, " It seems like nobody is very happy with the changes and everyone is saying they are being hit with the nerf bat." That does indeed sound like the game balance is going pretty well. It has been my experienced that well balanced miniatures wargames make both players feel like they at the disadvantage.

I am not saying that 8th is going to be free of trouble spots, but I have to agree with the posters that it does seem like much of the gnashing of teeth have been from exploit/loophole unit setups and/or stuff pretty far from what would be considered fluffy. Some of these players going as far as saying, "I didn't play it because it was powerful. I just like the model." Well, if that is true, then put the model in your army list and make the best of its ability and enjoy the model you claim to like. You come off disingenuous when you say you like the model and got it not because it was crazy good, but won't field it now that it isn't 'good'.

Ive been playing since 2nd, and played every edition since then. The thing i learned by 4th was GW giveth, and GW taketh away.

Collect models based on personal preference, not gimmicky lists. Collect a varied army and learn how to use every unit. Your collection will become flexible and you can weather the changes easily.

I enjoyed 7th, and I'm looking forward to 8th.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Ive been playing since 2nd, and played every edition since then. The thing i learned by 4th was GW giveth, and GW taketh away.

Having played since 1st, i think this is the most true of every edition change. Some things get better, some thing get worse. Overall balance remains relatively wonky. Fans keep saying things will get better over time. Someone crunches the numbers and picks out the problems within the first week (sometimes sooner depending on leaks). Prices go up. In the grand scheme of things, little changes.

Maybe this will be the fabled promised edition of the rules where things are only improved and the game only gets better. But about 20 or so years of following/playing 40k tells me its not likely.

 Galas wrote:
Flyrant was OP. All the Tyranid codex was useless, but the Flyrant was very powerfull. They have toned the Flyrant down and basically have made EVERYTHING else much more usefull. How a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th?! They are one of the most upgraded faction, like Orks!

I play Tau and they are one of the factions that has receive more the nerfbat. And I'm not mad! Thats a necesity for the good of the game! How can people be so blind? Is not what is good for you, is what is good for the game. The greater good!

I'll tell you how a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th. When a tyranid player spends around 300 $ on Flyrants, Mawlocs, Ripper Swarms, Mucolid Spores... And the next edition they get a huge nerf (Swarms "deep striking" at 9" from any enemy and spores at 12" is really, really useless, and the Mawloc entry is TOTAL trash, not to mention flyrant is practically useless now). So, now after I spent around 300 $ in all that stuff... they become unplayable. What can you play now? Genestealers, broodlord, tervigon, gaunts... I'll have to spend around 300 $ again to have a playable army... Yep, that makes me so happy.

I'm pretty sure these little compilation codexes are basically just a beta test that we're taking part in.

Simply put it's pretty obvious some units are not costed correctly and some options are either sup par or pointless. However at first glance the game already seems to be a major step up from 7th. Given GW's admittance to mistakes recently I have some hope that they'll own up to issues that are revealed at launch and fix them. The points being on a couple of pages in the back of the book are pretty clear of that since you'd only need to replace a couple of pages to update points costs.

Now the test is whether GW is actually waiting to hear feedback before they write the main codexes and release them, or if GW has already got them made in a warehouse somewhere and they're just going to contain the same screw ups these do. If that happens it will be evidence that GW hasn't changed nearly as much as we hoped they had.

SwarmHead wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Flyrant was OP. All the Tyranid codex was useless, but the Flyrant was very powerfull. They have toned the Flyrant down and basically have made EVERYTHING else much more usefull. How a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th?! They are one of the most upgraded faction, like Orks!

I play Tau and they are one of the factions that has receive more the nerfbat. And I'm not mad! Thats a necesity for the good of the game! How can people be so blind? Is not what is good for you, is what is good for the game. The greater good!

I'll tell you how a Tyranid player can be unhappy with 8th. When a tyranid player spends around 300 $ on Flyrants, Mawlocs, Ripper Swarms, Mucolid Spores... And the next edition they get a huge nerf (Swarms "deep striking" at 9" from any enemy and spores at 12" is really, really useless, and the Mawloc entry is TOTAL trash, not to mention flyrant is practically useless now). So, now after I spent around 300 $ in all that stuff... they become unplayable. What can you play now? Genestealers, broodlord, tervigon, gaunts... I'll have to spend around 300 $ again to have a playable army... Yep, that makes me so happy.

Well, as somebody else mentioned: If your mindset is about spamming certain OP units, to get an advantage over other players, you don't deserve it any better. Its nothing PRO about netlisting and beating up players who want to play a more generalized and fluffy army instead of Spamhammer. Now your Models aren't OP anymore, just as mediocre as everything else. The weaknesses of your army result from the lack of options due to spamming, not from weak rules.

You shouldn't blame the hammer for not being capable to saw. Blame yourself for not owning the right tools!


From what I have seen so far, everything looks promising in general. Many interesting doors have opened. There are some things I am not sure if I will like them, but it is far to early to tell. I think even though the rules are basically all available now, nobody is really capable of making a statement about what will work and what not until they have tried it in several games, cause there are to many changes. Hence, I don't get all the whining.

I play Guard, Marines, Nids, DE, Necrons and Tau. Nothing I saw makes me feel like I wanne cry, but there were a lot of things which made me smile like:
- Plasma rules (Executioner)
- Genestealers + Broodlord
- Pulsecarbine for Strike Teams are now an interesting pick (shoot while running from the enemy due to new ranged assault weapons mechanics)

But thats just my opinion...