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So GW announces 8th with the release of Primaris marines and Death Guard.

People then start talking about how it's, "yet another space marine release with no love for chaos." Is everyone forgetting about the new Death Guard faction of Chaos who are also being released? I'm confused as to why people think it's all marines and no Chaos.

Yes, loyalists get new figures. So do we as Chaos. Loyalists are the most popular faction, of course a new edition is going to have a release with some new figures of them in it. And Chaos is also a really popular faction. Well, check out thos awesome minis we get on release.

Sorry to sound like I'm ranting, it's just really weird seeing so many people say this. I know Eldar and Drukhari and Nids and Orks and everyone else don't get new figures in the new set, saying marines are getting another update while our armies die with finecast. I totally get that side of things. Chaos was also in a bit of a rut, with some of the oldest minis in the hobby (obviously excluding poor factions like the Battle Sisters). So one old faction is having some updates! (Along with Thousand Sons).

People are sad that we just got traitor legions, and then took those benefits away 6 months later.
But they will come back when the codices drop.

Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

Chaos Marines got pretty shafted through most of 6th and 7th until Traitor Legions was released. Chaos player complained that their 'dex was weak and old and they were justified in this.

However after the Thousand Son's, Traitor Legions, and Death Guard releases of the past 6 months, it's really just reflexive bitching at this point. It's the same whining that already asserts that "Chaos sux in 8th!!!" despite almost no games being played and the rules not yet fully released.

And don't hand me crap like, "Oh the rules have all been leaked!" cause no they haven't (played lots of Stronghold Assault and Cities of Death have you?) and even if they were no one's played anything like enough games to truly judge any faction's relative strength.

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

We haven't seen the new codex yet...

Just anger that we got something we'd been asking for over a decade now (legion rules please), then they got taken away a few months after they were added. As well as the marks that had been our only compensation for loss of legion rules.

It has left people very salty. Thousand sons in particular, due to the way this edition kinda screwed them up.

Because Chaos is more than Death Guard, or even Thousand Sons. Yes, we got some new DG stuff, and late last year we got some new TS stuff, but If you're playing anything other than that, you have nothing new.

Our basic troop kit is one of the oldest out there. If you run Emperor's Children and Noise Marines, you have to buy the basic CSM box, then purchase the Noise Marine upgrade kit from GW. Both of them if you want ONE special back pack and head. With the exception of Ahriman (who is still based on his old 3rd ed metal, just in plastic and better detailed) and Kharn, all our named HQ's are 2nd/3rd ed metals that were moved to Fine Cast. Abbadon is actually SHORTER than an Imperial Terminator model. Ya know, the absolute chosen of the Chaos Gods. Shorter than your average tactical Terminator. Obliterators/Mutilators are, without a doubt the most horrendous models in all of 40k. Berzerkers look like they just tripped over a rock. Our range is really all over the place as far as models go.

Meanwhile, the entire SM line has been kept up to date, even all the ones with books separate from the main SM codex. BA have Sanquinary Guard/Death Company. DA have their veterans, DW Knights, RW Black Knights, custom LS's, and fliers. SW have new Wulfen, the Santa Sleigh, Bjorn, TW Cav. Hell, even Deathwatch have brand new kits.

We know we're getting DG, but not every CSM player plays DG. I've played CSM since the 3.5 dex, and have never done anything w/ DG, other than a couple of PM squads in 5th edition where all our Cult units were Troops. I play Night Lords and Thousand Sons. Word Bearers literally have NOTHING. They didn't even get anything remotely resembling a unique unit until 6th ed w/ the Dark Apostle. Night Lords have a single upgrade kit (that looks horrible, I might add). Iron Warriors, same thing.

So we technically have as many 'sub-factions' as Imperial SM, yet absolutely none of the same kind of support. And, here we are again, with yet another SM faction coming to the forefront that is getting all new models, vehicles, HQ's, etc., that (if most peoples fears/thoughts are true) are simply going to be expanded and will eventually replace the current marines. So yet another barrier to us getting a fully updated model range.

So yeah, Death Guard is nice, but it would be nice to have basic updated troops, and support for our various other subfactions, too.

I know a feel Xeno players who feels that CSM is just another Space Marine subfaction.

So it's not Space Marines and Chaos Marines are equals.

It's more like Blood Angels and Chaos Space Marines are equals

Because chaos space marine players use what space marines get as a benchmark of what they should get. Which is silly, it's like getting mad that there's more racks of Yankee's gear than there is of the local highschool lacrosse team. There's a reason for that and if you don't see it it's because you don't want to.

They should be comparing themselves to more appropriate factions like Inquisition or SoB or Squats or Exodites. Then they'd feel better.

we're getting a plastic typhus with the DG update, we can assume plastic noise marines will come soonish, relax, it's VERY clear GW has a plan.

You have much more than every Ork Clan, Eldar Craft-world, Tau Sept, etc... I don't want to deny how GW has neglected Chaos all this years. But Chaos Space Marines have been alongside Space Marines the most supported faction this past 1,5 years. Not all players are Thousand Sons or Death Guard yeah, but as you count all Space Marines Subfactions as Space Marines Releases, that should count too.

BrianDavion wrote:
we're getting a plastic typhus with the DG update, we can assume plastic noise marines will come soonish, relax, it's VERY clear GW has a plan.

I like having you around Brian, you post quite often what I want to

Because csm players don't pay attention to what is happening with other armies. Which means they don't realize that for most armies the subfaction you play is determined entirely by the color scheme you use. Nor did they notice that every army in the game lost any subfaction rules they might have had.

Seriously, marine chapters mean as little as Chaos marks do now. With all supplements gone any cool rules from them are gone and that affects Tau, SM, Eldar, CSM and Orks. Tau didn't even keep the farsight enclaves list while csm kept the Thousand Sons list putting them ahead of Tau in the "special rules for subfactions" department.

On a side note, there was a lot of complaining about the traitor legions book not being good enough when it released. There is a very vocal group within the csm player base that complains about everything. Generally, they should just be ignored.

orkychaos wrote:
Because csm players don't pay attention to what is happening with other armies. Which means they don't realize that for most armies the subfaction you play is determined entirely by the color scheme you use. Nor did they notice that every army in the game lost any subfaction rules they might have had.

Seriously, marine chapters mean as little as Chaos marks do now. With all supplements gone any cool rules from them are gone and that affects Tau, SM, Eldar, CSM and Orks. Tau didn't even keep the farsight enclaves list while csm kept the Thousand Sons list putting them ahead of Tau in the "special rules for subfactions" department.

On a side note, there was a lot of complaining about the traitor legions book not being good enough when it released. There is a very vocal group within the csm player base that complains about everything. Generally, they should just be ignored.

To be fair it didn't even come close to putting CSM on par with say tau (or at least the more abusive varieties of tau). It just finally patched the major issues to make us solidly mid range, neither cheese nor borderline non functional. Poor Tyranids and Orks never got even that much admittedly (and a few are worried still haven't, but that's probably a bit premature).

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

If you've got the rules leaks you gotta give them to us. I wasn't expecting those to come out until like a month from now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

If you've got the rules leaks you gotta give them to us. I wasn't expecting those to come out until like a month from now.

Who said I have anything?!
Who said that anyone can easily go to /tg/ and find things on the subject?!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

If you've got the rules leaks you gotta give them to us. I wasn't expecting those to come out until like a month from now.

Presumably he just means the ones in the index https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B4IGo22sDo4zdEtrRmEyelg2TkU

That or there are new leaks regarding the remaining units and/or morty himself, or possibly the death guard codex as a whole.

He also isn't entirely wrong, the new IC are pretty good, but the new units honestly look less useful to me than the blight launcher plague marines can take. Seriously the blight drone makes spawn look insanely good by comparison (and that is a sad metric to fail by).

Tiberius501 wrote:So GW announces 8th with the release of Primaris marines and Death Guard.

People then start talking about how it's, "yet another space marine release with no love for chaos." Is everyone forgetting about the new Death Guard faction of Chaos who are also being released? I'm confused as to why people think it's all marines and no Chaos.

Yes, loyalists get new figures. So do we as Chaos. Loyalists are the most popular faction, of course a new edition is going to have a release with some new figures of them in it. And Chaos is also a really popular faction. Well, check out thos awesome minis we get on release.

Sorry to sound like I'm ranting, it's just really weird seeing so many people say this. I know Eldar and Drukhari and Nids and Orks and everyone else don't get new figures in the new set, saying marines are getting another update while our armies die with finecast. I totally get that side of things. Chaos was also in a bit of a rut, with some of the oldest minis in the hobby (obviously excluding poor factions like the Battle Sisters). So one old faction is having some updates! (Along with Thousand Sons).

Go to the Zerker Threads and then make this statement.

bhollenb wrote:Chaos Marines got pretty shafted through most of 6th and 7th until Traitor Legions was released. Chaos player complained that their 'dex was weak and old and they were justified in this.

However after the Thousand Son's, Traitor Legions, and Death Guard releases of the past 6 months, it's really just reflexive bitching at this point. It's the same whining that already asserts that "Chaos sux in 8th!!!" despite almost no games being played and the rules not yet fully released.

And don't hand me crap like, "Oh the rules have all been leaked!" cause no they haven't (played lots of Stronghold Assault and Cities of Death have you?) and even if they were no one's played anything like enough games to truly judge any faction's relative strength.

Yes they must be just complaining because their complainers. Not like my Thousand Sons now have no reason to bring more then 1 Sorcerer, and DG has access to more Psychic Powers then TS do.

ERJAK wrote:Because chaos space marine players use what space marines get as a benchmark of what they should get. Which is silly, it's like getting mad that there's more racks of Yankee's gear than there is of the local highschool lacrosse team. There's a reason for that and if you don't see it it's because you don't want to.

They should be comparing themselves to more appropriate factions like Inquisition or SoB or Squats or Exodites. Then they'd feel better.

Yes because their entire setup is almost the same except CSM are MORE CC Orientated so which faction do you think would have drop pods? The SM that could easily develop a Transport that dropped

orkychaos wrote:Because csm players don't pay attention to what is happening with other armies. Which means they don't realize that for most armies the subfaction you play is determined entirely by the color scheme you use. Nor did they notice that every army in the game lost any subfaction rules they might have had.

Seriously, marine chapters mean as little as Chaos marks do now. With all supplements gone any cool rules from them are gone and that affects Tau, SM, Eldar, CSM and Orks. Tau didn't even keep the farsight enclaves list while csm kept the Thousand Sons list putting them ahead of Tau in the "special rules for subfactions" department.

On a side note, there was a lot of complaining about the traitor legions book not being good enough when it released. There is a very vocal group within the csm player base that complains about everything. Generally, they should just be ignored.

Actually some of us do. Like the fact that Blood Angels are getting unique equipment for their Chapter. Which I like and hope they do this for every faction. It probably wont happen but it would be pretty awesome if it did. To your side note the reason why people complained about Traitor Legions is because they wanted a rebooted Codex a fixed codex yes the Traitor Legions stuff was cool, but the problem was to play CSM you need 0 CSM and 478,529,034,875,629,348 Cultists. Imagine if you said I want to play Space Marines and peoples response was "Well your going to need a lot of Guardsman then" does that sound even mildly reasonable to you?

Now to the everyone is complaining, Not everyone is complaining, some people are complaining and they have every right to. DG currently have more Psychic powers then TS which makes no sense. Have you seen the list of units I'm "allowed" to use in a Thousand Sons army? Most of the units on the list have nothing to do with Thousand Sons and the ones that do are not worth bringing. My Army o' Sorcerers has no reason to bring more then 1 MAYBE 2 Sorcerers, my units are crap in CC but then there supposed to be cause Thousand Sons, but there also crap at shooting, not because they don't hit or don't have good weapons but they simply don't have the model count 20-40 PPM on average doesn't get you a lot of models. The one thing my army did well was mind bullets and now they cant even do that well. Okay fine well at least I can boost my shooting because prescience right? Nope, 1 cast and you have a little better then 50% chance of getting it off and if it doesn't go off too bad. So what the hell are my options, bring 20 SOT in 1 squad and Ahriman, and bring the remaining 850 points in the 1850 army as Tzzangors/Cultists I was better off before Warzone Fenris II then I am now.

with all due respect I remember when I first got into 40k, your average advice for lsit building was "take scouts not tac Marines"

 Talamare wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

If you've got the rules leaks you gotta give them to us. I wasn't expecting those to come out until like a month from now.

Who said I have anything?!
Who said that anyone can easily go to /tg/ and find things on the subject?!

Because you're Implying you got all the new Death Guard rules, like the new Mortarion and Terminators and stuff on hand and you're hiding it from us.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

If you've got the rules leaks you gotta give them to us. I wasn't expecting those to come out until like a month from now.

Who said I have anything?!
Who said that anyone can easily go to /tg/ and find things on the subject?!

Because you're Implying you got all the new Death Guard rules, like the new Mortarion and Terminators and stuff on hand and you're hiding it from us.

Also, from what I saw during the demo game, the new DG rules are pretty cool. Still T5, 5+ feel-no-pain (Disgustingly Resiliant), re-roll wound rolls of 1 in combat. Poxwalkers replenish models when they kill dudes, which will be even easier with Typhus sitting nearby. They haven't got any big vehicle reveals and such yet, but GW have said more DG is on the way.

Because they like being wrong.

Chaos got a gakton of new stuff in total.

Just a note-

Chaos is pretty good in 8th, Khorne Berserkers attacking twice is filthy, and KSons can spam a bunch of mortal wounds sorta well.

Demon princes and blenders and most things for chaos are pretty good, no reason to complain, so far two gods have their own faction (KSons and DG) and Khorne releases are coming up soon enough I hear, even slannesh will be updated (all rumors mind you).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vryce wrote:
Because Chaos is more than Death Guard, or even Thousand Sons. Yes, we got some new DG stuff, and late last year we got some new TS stuff, but If you're playing anything other than that, you have nothing new.

Our basic troop kit is one of the oldest out there. If you run Emperor's Children and Noise Marines, you have to buy the basic CSM box, then purchase the Noise Marine upgrade kit from GW. Both of them if you want ONE special back pack and head. With the exception of Ahriman (who is still based on his old 3rd ed metal, just in plastic and better detailed) and Kharn, all our named HQ's are 2nd/3rd ed metals that were moved to Fine Cast. Abbadon is actually SHORTER than an Imperial Terminator model. Ya know, the absolute chosen of the Chaos Gods. Shorter than your average tactical Terminator. Obliterators/Mutilators are, without a doubt the most horrendous models in all of 40k. Berzerkers look like they just tripped over a rock. Our range is really all over the place as far as models go.

Meanwhile, the entire SM line has been kept up to date, even all the ones with books separate from the main SM codex. BA have Sanquinary Guard/Death Company. DA have their veterans, DW Knights, RW Black Knights, custom LS's, and fliers. SW have new Wulfen, the Santa Sleigh, Bjorn, TW Cav. Hell, even Deathwatch have brand new kits.

We know we're getting DG, but not every CSM player plays DG. I've played CSM since the 3.5 dex, and have never done anything w/ DG, other than a couple of PM squads in 5th edition where all our Cult units were Troops. I play Night Lords and Thousand Sons. Word Bearers literally have NOTHING. They didn't even get anything remotely resembling a unique unit until 6th ed w/ the Dark Apostle. Night Lords have a single upgrade kit (that looks horrible, I might add). Iron Warriors, same thing.

So we technically have as many 'sub-factions' as Imperial SM, yet absolutely none of the same kind of support. And, here we are again, with yet another SM faction coming to the forefront that is getting all new models, vehicles, HQ's, etc., that (if most peoples fears/thoughts are true) are simply going to be expanded and will eventually replace the current marines. So yet another barrier to us getting a fully updated model range.

So yeah, Death Guard is nice, but it would be nice to have basic updated troops, and support for our various other subfactions, too.

The thing is that DG and KSons are basically their own armies. KSons got like 5 incredible kits (I just built some exalted sorcerers and 20 rubric marines, gorgeous models), and the DG are getting like ~5-7 new kits that look amazing. Iron Hands have literally nothing special, no characters or anything. So many sub factions have been thrown away by GW, CSM and SM are the few too armies that even have fleshed out sub factions (my beloved Yme-Loc Eldar are barely cannon, and have less that two sentences devoted to them across all of 40k) Emperors children literally has 100x more stuff dedicated to /just/ emperors children than the Dark Eldar have dedicated to the Kabal of the Black Heart, literally the most powerful Kabal in Commoragh and the main flagship Kabal, oh but other Kabals must have some cool rules or maybe a special character - nope. Nothing. DE have three total special characters, One being a second edition metal and the others being ugly as balls (Urien Rakarth, not in the good HC type way) and the other being sorta cool but unusable on the table.

I was one of the people who was initially quite upset, but I've calmed down now, so I can offer my own perspective.

I appreciate that for lots of armies (Tau, Orks, etc.) faction rules are just colour schemes. The difference with CSM is that GW have put out Legion rules, both in 3.5ed and Traitor's Hate. In 4th they then took them away for no particular reason, not to return for 10 years. So although GW have said that they will be coming back, they do have form for doing weird things with CSM that they haven't done to any other army. So you can understand why they're worried, even if they should have some confidence that these things will be returning.

TonyH122 wrote:
I was one of the people who was initially quite upset, but I've calmed down now, so I can offer my own perspective.

I appreciate that for lots of armies (Tau, Orks, etc.) faction rules are just colour schemes. The difference with CSM is that GW have put out Legion rules, both in 3.5ed and Traitor's Hate. In 4th they then took them away for no particular reason, not to return for 10 years. So although GW have said that they will be coming back, they do have form for doing weird things with CSM that they haven't done to any other army. So you can understand why they're worried, even if they should have some confidence that these things will be returning.

Wait until a codex, I am assuming Traitor Legions sold really well, so GW understands the want for traitor legion rules, space marines don't have chapter tactics, so at least the playing field is equal now.

Just because you've had something before isn't a good reason to get it before everyone else (or get it when everyone else doesn't)

They are saying this because its not new stuff its just old stuff. Now by that I mean its new models to replace the death guard but not new units (well as long as you put blinkers on and ignore the drone and pox walkers) .

basicly it boils down to space marines have far to much stuff and they get revamped and more new stuff at least a few times an addition.

But the hope is that since choas is meant to be a main faction this addition that they get new stuff we already know they are getting new plague marine boxes and terminator boxes and of course the big guy. Although thats all we get that we know but we know space marines new faction will get alot new vehicles and at least 4 new boxes of troops and a bunch of character models and maybe a flyer and all done in quick order and that is where the problem for people lies.

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

hard to tell until you will have the Death Guard codex, index isn't enough to judge real army strenght in 8th

 blackmage wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Traitor Legion was AMAZING

8e Death Guard is mediocre at best. The new models look great tho.

hard to tell until you will have the Death Guard codex, index isn't enough to judge real army strenght in 8th

The Index list, even as a stop gap has managed to misplace 3 units that have been Death Guard staples since they were first distinguished as a faction - all the way back in 3rd edition with the Index Astartes articles. That's a strange decision. A very strange decision indeed. And it bodes poorly.

The possibility of getting Scarab Occult'd is not something people want - oh hey, your Death Guard Terminators can now only have X and Y. I mean, consider....

That Thousand Sons Terminators, even with their fixed layout still managed to get shafted. 'Oh, you must have power swords' - there have only been 2 Chaos Terminator Power Sword arms in the entire range and one of them was on the wrong bloody side. How did they expect Thousand Son players to have armed their Terminators with swords when they literally didn't even make the option available for the most part?

Funny, Space Wolves look better when you make them out of AoS Chaos Kits. Wonder why that doesn't work for Chaos chapters...?

Saw this effort in Maitland a few months ago - too bad the guy who made them thinks that's a finished paint job.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zcnj38l0x51066g/20170604_212704.jpg?dl=0

Because saying Death Guard/Thousand Sons stuff is 'Chaos' is like saying that a Blood Angels or Dark Angels release means the 'Space Marines' received a release. Yeah, technically they did but only people running Death Guard/Blood Angels/Thousand Sons/Dark Angels actually GET that stuff.

Everybody else - the majority of Chaos players - received Traitor Legions and then had the rules torn away from 'em in eight months.

Meanwhile, Primarines are for EVERY loyalist chapter, complete with many new kits.

With that being said, the only complaints I've really seen from Chaos players are that Traitor Legions got taken away - which settled down when everybody read they were coming back in a jiffy - and some Death Guard players being irked they lost stuff like Fiends, Havocs, etc. It honestly feels like "S-STUPID CHAOS WHINERS!11!" is some sort of meme that loyalist players have to vomit up on reflex or else they get withdrawal symptoms or something.