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Apple fox wrote:
Gretchin Climbing all over the tank, Droping things down exhaust pipes. Pulling off bits and peaces, and blocking the weapons with a wrench

It actually Kinda cool

"sir, a single grot is blocking the path of our 70 tonne war machine"

"better give him the right of way, reverse"

"sir, a second gretchin is behind us, blocking our path"

"we could crush either effortlessly with simple physics but, lets just stop the engine and open all hatches instead"

"it's only fair"

I give you 8th ed tank physics

"Sir, why don't we just move sideways with our tracks?"

"Good idea, Jenkins! Engage a Tokyo Drift!"

"Sir, the Gretchin are now standing on opposite corners of the tank, each exactly 1 inch away on the diagonal, so square root of 2 over 2 inches away from our cardinals, and the ABS engages if we approach within an inch of either."

"...when did Orks learn trigonometry 101? Rotate at a diagonal and move!"

"Sir, there's now a Snotling on our side".

Suspension of real world reality is one thing. Suspension of internal consistency reality is another.

xmbk wrote:
Suspension of real world reality is one thing. Suspension of internal consistency reality is another.

And your point is?

xmbk wrote:

Spoiler:

Tyran wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
All games are an abstract representation of some scenario, real or imaginary. As such, the mechanics of the game are occasionally going to create odd interactions that aren't "realistic". We accept those interactions to be able to play a game within a reasonable time frame.

With the size of the armies used in an average 40K games, we need a fair bit of abstraction so a 1500pt game doesn't take all day. So, we will see some odd interactions crop up. So yes, a single Grot being able to make a Land Raider stop moving is "unrealistic", but I can live with it if in return vehicles have a level of durability appropriate to their cost, which seems to be the case with 8th.

If you want a realistic game, go play Advanced Squad Leader. It's got rules for every possible scenario. However, be aware it's got a set of rules the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica, and you'll spend a not-inconsiderable amount of time looking up things on graphs.

That rationalization could be used for anything. This is easily fixed, and it currently leads to laughable levels of reality suspension.

The game always had laughable levels of reality suspension. The question is why should vehicles get exemption to rules that effect everyone else?

Suspension of real world reality is one thing. Suspension of internal consistency reality is another.

We went way passed that with most space marines, and like every big stomp robot :O
A lot of things in this game would probably be well capable from extracting itself from CC, Daemons, jetbikes and even things like terminators could probably have rules about how they move in and out of combat without as much issues. But it does need to come with rules that function without issue.

Take the above Grots, if they are climbing on the tank as they probably would Should they not also get rules to latch on. But i do support large tanks getting something to push themselves out of combat, but not to much in the way of damage.

 Crablezworth wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
Gretchin Climbing all over the tank, Droping things down exhaust pipes. Pulling off bits and peaces, and blocking the weapons with a wrench

It actually Kinda cool

"sir, a single grot is blocking the path of our 70 tonne war machine"

"better give him the right of way, reverse"

"sir, a second gretchin is behind us, blocking our path"

"we could crush either effortlessly with simple physics but, lets just stop the engine and open all hatches instead"

"it's only fair"

I give you 8th ed tank physics

"Sir, there is a small crater ahead, about 3 inches deep"

"Everyone, prepare for impact, we all know there's a one in six chance we're never getting out of that devilish thing!"

I give you 7th ed tank physics.

 jeff white wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I played a game of 8th, my world eaters against my friends iron warriors. He moved his shooting platform land raider halfway up the field and i managed to charge and surround it with berzerkers. Over two rounds of combat where the berzerkers went twice, they did three wounds to it and he couldn't get away.

Moral of the story: I have better things to do with my berzerkers and your shooting platforms should stay the hell away from my melee units. If you give me the chance to lock you down I will, but I won't if there are better targets (which there weren't).

What if those were gretchin? Ork boyz? Conscripts?
Jump troops? Scouts?
Shutting down a heavy vehicle with foot troops regardless is not a good thing.
Right?

A good thing?

He moved his land raider up to mid field where it didn't belong and I took advantage of the situation and used the game's rules to lock the tank down. Is this a "good" thing? That is completely subjective. I would say, as a melee army, this is a very good thing since it allows me to use my opponent's stupidity against him. If I ran a mechanized army I would understand that I need to play way smarter to deal with this scenario, maybe have a babysit melee unit or ensure I stay away from the melee or have a chaff bubble. It doesn't matter what might do this to me, it might happen and I need to understand it might happen and I need to at least have some plan against it should it look like it is going to happen.

There is no other argument here. These are the rules. You can chose to make them fit more into how you want them to fit and hope your friends all feel the same and will play it that way, or you can play the game as written. Is it a "good" thing? In the context of the rules, I would say it is. It punishes the tank for doing something it shouldn't have with no support. It punishes bad play and keeps tanks from being too good against infantry, and tanks are already really good this edition. Oh, I could also surround the tank with four helbrutes, or 10 flesh hounds, or 4 other tanks. Our reality has nothing to do with Warhammer 40k and never will. The rules are the rules.

You can always comment on 40k's facebook page about it and they might look into changing it when they update the rules.

Ran into this comment on /r/warhammer40k about vehicle melee:

kanible wrote:Second 8th ed game I tried my opponent put my vanquisher into a stalemate by locking it in combat with his Valkyrie. Couldn't fall back because it was already at the edge of the board.

Essentially I was swinging my turret left to right and he was flapping his cargo door up and down like some slowed battlebots episode

And before you go "Valkyries cannot charge", remember they can also hover.

Hmmm I played a game of 8th that used a lot of tanks finally and it felt strange when a few did get into combat. It makes sense on the turn it charges, but after that it's just not clear what the rules are meant to represent narratively. Going to play some more and see, but it feels like it works the way it does just to make vehicles work like,everything else. I guess it's a perfect example of gameplay > fluff?

I played a game of 8th and the Wound table touched me in dirty places.

 Galas wrote:
I played a game of 8th and the Wound table touched me in dirty places.

Explain....

xmbk wrote:

Spoiler:

Tyran wrote:

xmbk wrote:

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
All games are an abstract representation of some scenario, real or imaginary. As such, the mechanics of the game are occasionally going to create odd interactions that aren't "realistic". We accept those interactions to be able to play a game within a reasonable time frame.

With the size of the armies used in an average 40K games, we need a fair bit of abstraction so a 1500pt game doesn't take all day. So, we will see some odd interactions crop up. So yes, a single Grot being able to make a Land Raider stop moving is "unrealistic", but I can live with it if in return vehicles have a level of durability appropriate to their cost, which seems to be the case with 8th.

If you want a realistic game, go play Advanced Squad Leader. It's got rules for every possible scenario. However, be aware it's got a set of rules the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica, and you'll spend a not-inconsiderable amount of time looking up things on graphs.

That rationalization could be used for anything. This is easily fixed, and it currently leads to laughable levels of reality suspension.

The game always had laughable levels of reality suspension. The question is why should vehicles get exemption to rules that effect everyone else?

Suspension of real world reality is one thing. Suspension of internal consistency reality is another.

Exactly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyran wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Suspension of real world reality is one thing. Suspension of internal consistency reality is another.

And your point is?

Seriously?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 andysonic1 wrote:

 jeff white wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
I played a game of 8th, my world eaters against my friends iron warriors. He moved his shooting platform land raider halfway up the field and i managed to charge and surround it with berzerkers. Over two rounds of combat where the berzerkers went twice, they did three wounds to it and he couldn't get away.

Moral of the story: I have better things to do with my berzerkers and your shooting platforms should stay the hell away from my melee units. If you give me the chance to lock you down I will, but I won't if there are better targets (which there weren't).

What if those were gretchin? Ork boyz? Conscripts?
Jump troops? Scouts?
Shutting down a heavy vehicle with foot troops regardless is not a good thing.
Right?

A good thing?

He moved his land raider up to mid field where it didn't belong and I took advantage of the situation and used the game's rules to lock the tank down. Is this a "good" thing? That is completely subjective. I would say, as a melee army, this is a very good thing since it allows me to use my opponent's stupidity against him. If I ran a mechanized army I would understand that I need to play way smarter to deal with this scenario, maybe have a babysit melee unit or ensure I stay away from the melee or have a chaff bubble. It doesn't matter what might do this to me, it might happen and I need to understand it might happen and I need to at least have some plan against it should it look like it is going to happen.

There is no other argument here. These are the rules. You can chose to make them fit more into how you want them to fit and hope your friends all feel the same and will play it that way, or you can play the game as written. Is it a "good" thing? In the context of the rules, I would say it is. It punishes the tank for doing something it shouldn't have with no support. It punishes bad play and keeps tanks from being too good against infantry, and tanks are already really good this edition. Oh, I could also surround the tank with four helbrutes, or 10 flesh hounds, or 4 other tanks. Our reality has nothing to do with Warhammer 40k and never will. The rules are the rules.

You can always comment on 40k's facebook page about it and they might look into changing it when they update the rules.

Seems midfield is exactly where a troop carrying mobile battle bunker " belongs" actually!
So, for you it is a good thing that rules can be exploited to make your chosen armies win more easily on the field?
If our reality has nothing to do with 40k then why do all races represent something so easily identified with some aspect of our reality?
Boltguns? Battle cannons? Movement statistics?
You can't be serious...
No argument.

 Galas wrote:
I played a game of 8th and the Wound table touched me in dirty places.

Can you show me on this force organization chart where they touched you?