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With the new FAQ, there is no points penalty for using understrength squads anymore. So if you're using points, you can take any squad as a solo model or whatever you feel like. I get the feeling there are some clever ways to abuse this. Any ideas for solo/understrength squads aside from using them to fill up requisite FOC slots for extra command points?

Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

Real News wrote:
With the new FAQ, there is no points penalty for using understrength squads anymore. So if you're using points, you can take any squad as a solo model or whatever you feel like. I get the feeling there are some clever ways to abuse this. Any ideas for solo/understrength squads aside from using them to fill up requisite FOC slots for extra command points?

The latest FAQ clarified that Deathwatch have minimum squads of five - what army are you running?

I think you still can take only one understrength squad.

Pepe96 wrote:
I think you still can take only one understrength squad.

Is that per army or per detachment?

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

Type is not the same thing as Role. It says one per type, not one per role. But yes, it's a silly rule and that's why I'm looking for specific ways to abuse it.

What I'm interested in is, when it says only one unit of that type can be taken does that mean I can't take any more of that type? For instance, if I take a unit of 5 Necron Warriors (min size 10) can I still take other units of Warriors or am I limited to that one unit of 5? I don't have the rulebook on me but the wording looked like it can swing either way to me.

Real News wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

Type is not the same thing as Role. It says one per type, not one per role. But yes, it's a silly rule and that's why I'm looking for specific ways to abuse it.

one per type meaning (for instance) one infantry unit undestrenght in the whole army? or one chaos cultists units in the whole army?
So i could take 1 oblit, 1 cultist, 1 chaos marines, 1 biker?

Infantry is technically a keyword, not a "type". I'm not sure if "type" explicitly means anything in the rules. I interpret "that type" to mean "that datacard", though that could muddle things further since you have units like berzerkers and rubric marines who have multiple datacards. Honestly I'm just gonna pretend this whole rule doesn't exist, it's pretty half-baked.

meh, i guess you are right @Real News. I'm ignoring this rule... for my peace of mind.

I like this rule personally. It means that if you don't have enough points for a whole unit you can still use your leftover points for something viable instead of throwing them into upgrades that I'll never use.

For example, if I have 20 points lying around I can get myself a single ranger to annoy my opponent from distance or add a Dire Avenger Exarch to lead my Eldar Guardians into battle. Not to mention the armies that can now have their troops travel with their leaders(Necrons/Dark Eldar).

In regards to abuse I am not too worried about it. The biggest abuse I can imagine(depending on what "type" means) is Razorback spam. Because the only thing this rule is truly enabling is easier access to Dedicated transports and command points.

I don't at all think this is what GW meant with this entry in the FAQ. All I think they wanted to say was that a squad does not have to go with the 5-10-15-20 or whatever steps when you are building your squad in matched play, but they still have a minimum squad size. It just means that a tactical squad can have 7 marines, and only pay for those 7 and not 10. If you look at the point costs, you clearly see that each unit has a minimum model count. Anything else seems really silly to be honest.



I mean I could be stating the obvious here, or reading the FAQ wrong. It could mean that a tactical squad technically could have just 1 marine, but I really don't think so.

 alleus wrote:
I don't at all think this is what GW meant with this entry in the FAQ. All I think they wanted to say was that a squad does not have to go with the 5-10-15-20 or whatever steps when you are building your squad in matched play, but they still have a minimum squad size. It just means that a tactical squad can have 7 marines, and only pay for those 7 and not 10. If you look at the point costs, you clearly see that each unit has a minimum model count. Anything else seems really silly to be honest.



I mean I could be stating the obvious here, or reading the FAQ wrong. It could mean that a tactical squad technically could have just 1 marine, but I really don't think so.

Read the Understrength Squads rule. It's a rule that states you are allowed to take a single model, down below the minimum as stated.

Read the Understrength Squads rule. It's a rule that states you are allowed to take a single model, down below the minimum as stated.

Oh, I had completely missed that rule. Well, in that case it's pretty clear that you can do this, however stupid I may think it is. Only one unit though, so you can't spam units with 1 model in them for command points, that's SUPER clear in the rulebook. Right?

 alleus wrote:

Read the Understrength Squads rule. It's a rule that states you are allowed to take a single model, down below the minimum as stated.

Oh, I had completely missed that rule. Well, in that case it's pretty clear that you can do this, however stupid I may think it is. Only one unit though, so you can't spam units with 1 model in them for command points, that's SUPER clear in the rulebook. Right?

One unit of each "type." Type however, isn't a word we define. I initially assumed it to mean Role, but Real News pointed out that's not actually supported by... anything.

Well, it lets me run a 4-man squad of something in a Dark Eldar transport with an HQ, so I'm pretty happy about it. It'll be nice to not have to bring crazy expensive and non-synergistic Courts of the Archon to fill up the venom my succubus is riding in. Why they didn't make the minimum unit size of Incubi/Bloodbrides/Trueborn less than 5 I cannot fathom - but they do make IG command squads 4 man when their transports all have 2 extra slots characters can use anyway :/

As for "Abuse" - if my opponent wants to complain that I have an extra squad of 4 bloodbrides riding along with my Succubus, they're free to, but in my experience I've never had my opponent complain about me fielding more wych units.

My reading is that you can only field an understrength unit if you do not have another unit of the same type.

"Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models...if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type."

This can be gamed a little bit if desired say orks running a battalion with

2 x 30 boyz
1 x 1 Gretchin

To fill the required slots.

So it can snatch a few CP, but it is unlikely that you will be able to spam single model/understrength units.

I also think it will be likely that tournaments will just rule "no understrength units allowed"

Given the flexibility of the Detachments there is not a huge upside to doing this, unless you have a ton of troops choices. So an imperial army can spam understrength troops to get to a Brigade if desired.

Breng77 wrote:
My reading is that you can only field an understrength unit if you do not have another unit of the same type.

"Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models...if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type."

This can be gamed a little bit if desired say orks running a battalion with

2 x 30 boyz
1 x 1 Gretchin

To fill the required slots.

So it can snatch a few CP, but it is unlikely that you will be able to spam single model/understrength units.

I also think it will be likely that tournaments will just rule "no understrength units allowed"

Given the flexibility of the Detachments there is not a huge upside to doing this, unless you have a ton of troops choices. So an imperial army can spam understrength troops to get to a Brigade if desired.

I agree that tournaments will likely limit abuse. AM probably won't abuse this much since our infantry models are cheap and filling a brigade and a battalion at 2000 points is easy.

 JB wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My reading is that you can only field an understrength unit if you do not have another unit of the same type.

"Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models...if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type."

This can be gamed a little bit if desired say orks running a battalion with

2 x 30 boyz
1 x 1 Gretchin

To fill the required slots.

So it can snatch a few CP, but it is unlikely that you will be able to spam single model/understrength units.

I also think it will be likely that tournaments will just rule "no understrength units allowed"

Given the flexibility of the Detachments there is not a huge upside to doing this, unless you have a ton of troops choices. So an imperial army can spam understrength troops to get to a Brigade if desired.

I agree that tournaments will likely limit abuse. AM probably won't abuse this much since our infantry models are cheap and filling a brigade and a battalion at 2000 points is easy.

I was thinking more marine type imperial armies, might take say 1 conscript, and 1 Infantry model etc, and then max out other slots. I'm not really sure what would really be gained in the end, just that the possibility exists most for imperial armies.

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

I want to fit a terminator squad and captain into a land raider. This is what the rule is for.

While it is a stupid rule and poorly written (the intent is clear), it's another one of those easy to avoid situations - don't play that person.

I agree this will likely be banned in tournaments, but if someone shows up trying to game the system like that, again, they can piss off.

 JB wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
My reading is that you can only field an understrength unit if you do not have another unit of the same type.

"Sometimes you may find that you do not have enough models...if this is the case, you can still include one unit of that type."

This can be gamed a little bit if desired say orks running a battalion with

2 x 30 boyz
1 x 1 Gretchin

To fill the required slots.

So it can snatch a few CP, but it is unlikely that you will be able to spam single model/understrength units.

I also think it will be likely that tournaments will just rule "no understrength units allowed"

Given the flexibility of the Detachments there is not a huge upside to doing this, unless you have a ton of troops choices. So an imperial army can spam understrength troops to get to a Brigade if desired.

I agree that tournaments will likely limit abuse. AM probably won't abuse this much since our infantry models are cheap and filling a brigade and a battalion at 2000 points is easy.

off the top of my head I'd take a single special weapon team model with demolition charge for a cheap marbo type suicide unit that I can easily toss into a vendetta or something. Drop him where I need him and blow up whatever target I want. There is going to be a lot of gamey abuse with this. The most likely abuse is opening up the 9 command points In brigade detachments to a lot of lists that wasn't taking the prerequisite units in full.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

I want to fit a terminator squad and captain into a land raider. This is what the rule is for.

except that's not what they said the rule is for. It's not to game the system. It's because little Johnny only has 3 guardsmen and can't form another squad. But now little Johnny can make an infantry squad with 3 models.

I don't have my rulebook on me, but doesn't it say that even if you take an understrength squad in Matched Play, you still pay the points for the minimum sized squad?

So, if you only take 1 Terminator, you still have to pay for 5?

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

If you cared enough to keep reading, you'd see that this was not only already brought up, I also already made a post talking about the fact that it was brought up. And it's in matched play though.

 Lorek wrote:
I don't have my rulebook on me, but doesn't it say that even if you take an understrength squad in Matched Play, you still pay the points for the minimum sized squad?

So, if you only take 1 Terminator, you still have to pay for 5?

No, it says the opposite. It says you only have to pay for the models you bring.

 Purifier wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

If you cared enough to keep reading, you'd see that this was not only already brought up, I also already made a post talking about the fact that it was brought up. And it's in matched play though.

If you tried hard enough to comprehend you will see I was stating this is SUPPOSED to represent casual play NOT match play. I'm not saying it actual does because they way they implemented it makes no sense. Power points is casual, matched play is competitve and yet they hamstrung this rule into the game when every type of play already allowed you to take understrength squads by simply paying the cost for the full squad.

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

If you cared enough to keep reading, you'd see that this was not only already brought up, I also already made a post talking about the fact that it was brought up. And it's in matched play though.

If you tried hard enough to comprehend you will see I was stating this is SUPPOSED to represent casual play NOT match play. I'm not saying it actual does because they way they implemented it makes no sense. Power points is casual, matched play is competitve and yet they hamstrung this rule into the game when every type of play already allowed you to take understrength squads by simply paying the cost for the full squad.

Yeah, I'm saying you're clearly wrong. They specifically went and added this to Matched Play (which I do not agree with) so saying that it is SUPPOSED to represent casual play and not Matched Play is just "yes is no"-levels of wrong. You are making assumptions as to what their intent was, and it's not being backed by any of the facts.

My two cents:

I think any time there's a rule in 40k, someone will try to exploit it in any way they can. I just choose not to play against that type of person. In a tournament environment, I think they need to tighten it up. The rules in the book are for playing and having a good time. In any competitive game, it's going to need more structure. For casual matched play games, I wouldn't be adverse to someone taking a single understrength unit. I would want them to ask me first, though.

Myself, I have been trying to build up my tyranids. I've got minimum unit sizes on everything except zoanthropes, because I was only able to pick up 1 on Ebay at a price I was willing to pay. I'm sure I'll be getting more, I've been hunting for some used ones for a while. But I wouldn't have any qualms about asking a player at the store if they minded me bringing 1 in my army. At the casual game level, what's agreed on by the two players is fine. If my opponent wasn't okay with that, I either wouldn't take it, or I'd ask them if I could proxy the unit. No big deal.

If I showed up with 1 tyrant guard, 1 hive guard, a unit of 20 genestealers and a unit of 4 genestealers, I'd be too embarrassed to ask my opponent to allow that, because I'd know I was gaming the system. And if I didn't ask, he'd still be well within his rights to either refuse the game, or not play against me in the future. Again, no big deal.

So tournament, no. Casual, it's a game, do what you agree on with your opponent, be prepared to find another opponent or tweak your list to come to an understanding and make sure you both have fun.

Tarendal wrote:
My two cents:

I think any time there's a rule in 40k, someone will try to exploit it in any way they can. I just choose not to play against that type of person. In a tournament environment, I think they need to tighten it up. The rules in the book are for playing and having a good time. In any competitive game, it's going to need more structure. For casual matched play games, I wouldn't be adverse to someone taking a single understrength unit. I would want them to ask me first, though.

Myself, I have been trying to build up my tyranids. I've got minimum unit sizes on everything except zoanthropes, because I was only able to pick up 1 on Ebay at a price I was willing to pay. I'm sure I'll be getting more, I've been hunting for some used ones for a while. But I wouldn't have any qualms about asking a player at the store if they minded me bringing 1 in my army. At the casual game level, what's agreed on by the two players is fine. If my opponent wasn't okay with that, I either wouldn't take it, or I'd ask them if I could proxy the unit. No big deal.

If I showed up with 1 tyrant guard, 1 hive guard, a unit of 20 genestealers and a unit of 4 genestealers, I'd be too embarrassed to ask my opponent to allow that, because I'd know I was gaming the system. And if I didn't ask, he'd still be well within his rights to either refuse the game, or not play against me in the future. Again, no big deal.

So tournament, no. Casual, it's a game, do what you agree on with your opponent, be prepared to find another opponent or tweak your list to come to an understanding and make sure you both have fun.

Raw you cannot take 20 Genestealers and a unit of 4. The rule specifically says if you cannot field a full unit you may field one unit of this type under strength. Because you can field a full strength genestealer squad you would not be allowed to run a unit of 4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Purifier wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

gungo wrote:

 Purifier wrote:
Only one per type. One Troop, one Heavy etc, so there is absolutely such a thing as minimum squad size.

It's also a silly rule that I hope they remove from Matched Play, because it will exclusively be used to try and abuse it.

That's not type that's role. Type is kommando, burna, nobs etc. it's suppose to represent the fact you don't have enough models to ask a full squad and is really for a casual game NOT matched play which is suppose to be competitve.

If you cared enough to keep reading, you'd see that this was not only already brought up, I also already made a post talking about the fact that it was brought up. And it's in matched play though.

If you tried hard enough to comprehend you will see I was stating this is SUPPOSED to represent casual play NOT match play. I'm not saying it actual does because they way they implemented it makes no sense. Power points is casual, matched play is competitve and yet they hamstrung this rule into the game when every type of play already allowed you to take understrength squads by simply paying the cost for the full squad.

Yeah, I'm saying you're clearly wrong. They specifically went and added this to Matched Play (which I do not agree with) so saying that it is SUPPOSED to represent casual play and not Matched Play is just "yes is no"-levels of wrong. You are making assumptions as to what their intent was, and it's not being backed by any of the facts.

where is it specifically in matched play? This rule is in the Battle-forged army section. This can be used for any method of playing and is not specific to matched play. Now it is also not exclusive of matched play either, but I don't think the intent is that people going to tournaments bring understrength units, but instead to allow newer players to be able to play when they have less than full squads.

I know, just looking for the most obvious way of pointing out exploitation without typing out 5 more unit types.