Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.

Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 8 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.

8 Power/chain fists and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.

Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.

EDIT (9 hits averaged)

8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.

You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.

Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.

EDIT (9 hits averaged)

8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.

You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.

we already know you dont like powerfists

keep it in your own thread where you basically ignore everything that had been said and shifted the discussion from terminators to terminator characters.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.

Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.

EDIT (9 hits averaged)

8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.

You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.

But then they wouldn't have S8 Ap-3/4 Dd3/2.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

DarkOnes wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

DarkOnes wrote:
Any Terminator unit.

The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.

Deep strike them with Combi-weapons and a Lord/Captain for re-rolls. They are a 2+/5++ unit with 2 wounds each that can drop directly in front of the enemy turn 1 (or wait a few turns and surprise attack an enemy unit going for an objective), they are extremely dangerous and your opponant will have to dedicate most of their firepower to wiping the unit and the Lord/Captain if they don't want to get their shooty units bogged down in combat for a turn. What's wrong with that?

Well most terminators cannot take Combi-weapons. So your argument limits you to Space Wolfs and Chaos.

Unless your army is very fast your basically leaving 700 points in the enemy deployment zone.

Every time I've dropped ten terminators in I'm left with two or three by my next turn. It just seems like the Stormlord or BaneBlade that I constantly face are way better than terminators.

Who said anything about 10 man Terminator units? I was talking 5 man units. As for fast? Well depends on your army: if you're shooty then you Terminators were sent in to bog down enemy units that are fast and are trying to rush forward to get into cc and if you're cc orientated I should hope you are fast, but even if you aren't the Terminators can hold up deadly shooty units while you move up.

Why are you sending Terminators after a Baneblade varient!? That isn't the Terminators fault, that's poor target priority!

he didnt say anything about 10 man squads either. I assumed he was talking about dropping 2x5 man squads, i.e. 10 all up. Not sure it makes a massive difference however. Not sure how bogged down you expect anyone to get by 10 termies in combat in 8th though.

My hellblasters would nearly wipe the unit. Standing next to Guilliman. About the same point cost in comparison too. Really though - any weapons will get the job done.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My hellblasters would nearly wipe the unit. Standing next to Guilliman. About the same point cost in comparison too. Really though - any weapons will get the job done.

Assuming the terminators are walking or deep stuck and didnt attack them.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.

Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 9 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.

EDIT (9 hits averaged)

8 Power/chain fists and and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.

You'd cut almost 200 points off that unit if you removed the trash powerfist.

we already know you dont like powerfists

keep it in your own thread where you basically ignore everything that had been said and shifted the discussion from terminators to terminator characters.

I didn't start that - I just elaborated on what was already being discussed.

 Xenomancers wrote:
My hellblasters would nearly wipe the unit. Standing next to Guilliman. About the same point cost in comparison too. Really though - any weapons will get the job done.

But your hellblasters wouldn't get to fire because the Terminators would have killed them and maybe even assaulted a different unit to tie them up. Sure Girlyman would kill them afterwards but you just lost a unit and a turns shooting from another.

DarkOnes wrote:
Any Terminator unit.

The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.

I must say I'm quite happy with my GK terminators in combat, and you can give them gate to move them out of a danger zone.

I'm quite happy with BA terminators in the assault phase. IT's so cheap to buff them up to truly ridiculous levels.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
10 man kitted out terminators are no where near 700 points.

Choas ones are - Max space marine terms is in the 550 range depending on how you arm your Sargent and how many chain-fists you take. Kinda a lot for 8 powerfist hits don't you think? OFC this is with 100 points of CML.

8 Power/chain fists and effectively two 10man tactical squads worth of bolter fire and wounds and better armor saves and the ability deep strike.

Well the 700 points was in reference to two five man squads with a Captain to assist them. Total = 764

10 Tactical terminators
5 men
26 + 2 + 20 = 48 x 3 models = 144
26 + 50 + 20 =96
26 + 2 + 4 = 32

Total = 272 x 2 = 544

Captain = 122 + 15 + 25 = 162

Total = 706

 Xenomancers wrote:


Straight up - Harlequins are OP and they murder tau. They need nerfs. Armies of all fliers need TO to do something about it (taking assault out of the game is BS) limit to 1-2 flyers per army (easy fix). Once those things are sorted out. Tau might be able to do well.

I think if it turns out all flyers is super broken, the easy fix is simply to ban the Air Wing Detachment. That combined with the 3 detachment max (suggested by GW), eliminates all flyer armies. Now you could still somewhat spam them through the Patrol detachment, (you would need 1 HQ and 1 Troop for every 2 flyers, and get 0 CP), but it would help a bit by forcing the opponent to take extra units. This puts essentially a 60ish point tax on each storm raven. It isn't perfect, and storm ravens still might need a points adjustment, but for most armies this puts a hard stop on flyer spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarkOnes wrote:
Any Terminator unit.

The change to AP really hit +2 armor hard. They are slow, extremely expensive, and very poor in close combat. The boost to the storm bolter doesn't come close to making up for their cost. GW said that terminators will really feel like terminators in this edition. Instead they just leave you disappointed that you didn't just take twice as many 3+ models for the same number of shots, and attacks for cheaper.

The change to AP really hasn't effected terminators all that much honestly. Against AP 0 the added wound makes them twice as durable as last edition, against AP -1 they are the same durability. If they have storm shields they are basically the same against any other AP that they already were., without it the only spot they are worse is AP -2 (mostly old AP3), other than that their durability is at worst equal to what it used to be. Now they cost more, but offensively in shooting they are much better, in combat, they are a bit worse against some things and better against others.

so far, I've played vs Terminators (pure Deathwing) and watched a few BRs with them. My opponent, and people in games I witnessed dropped them down in front of my units, which to me is crazy. You basically just put a unit in a place where I was attacking anyway, and allowed me to bring more firepower to bear.
I'd always drop in a place that would divert an attack (that could change with malestrom cards obviously) and make sure that I was only hitting one or two units from the flank, making it harder for enemy to bring more firepower ono my unit without changing his game plan completely.

Not sure on best weapon fit either. Te assault cannon is nice in middle ground, but not that much better than stormbolter. The Hvy flamer is out of range in deepstrike. Cyclone is nice but expensive. As a Deathwing player too, I'd probably look at the Plasma cannon option more now.

Ok so you'll want to read this chart a little more slowly since it's "backwards".

Storm bolters from 5 Terminators have a 23% chance to kill a full unit of intercessors. 43% to kill 4. 67% to kill 3.

5 Intercessors w/ OC have a 0.68% chance to kill 5 terminators. 7% to kill 4. 27% to kill 3.
5 Intercessors w/ OC and RF have a 29% chance to kill 5 terminators. 54% to kill 4. 78% to kill 3.

There is a 3-6% chance any intercessor kills itself outright.

Conclusion:
The storm bolter is damn near as effective as a PI on OC with RF.
The storm bolter would be an even more effective all round infantry killer.

Terminators can be anywhere if you don't guard against it, blast one unit and charge another before you have a chance to respond.
If you do guard against it then terminators have dictated your movement and you will not be getting rapid fire shots as often.

Note: modeled with 500,000 rounds of shooting/combat for each item.

 Gamgee wrote:
Pick something that isn't. New results in for a big ETC tournament the Caledonian. Tau got stomped and tabled (not an uncommon event) the flyer spam that won the first tournament in NA took the first European tournament too.

Tau placed even worse in this tournament and it was a larger sample size than the last. I wish I could get their lists, but I recall drones being worked around/killed around without too much problems. If that is being circumvented so easily our best unit int he codex has failed us and we need a complete rework.

Tau rebalance when?

"Tau aren't in first place, therefore something is very wrong"

Were they more suit heavy lists that turned out to be completely firewarrior-anemic?

Oh, Daedalus81...loving the graph title

I would say drop pods and by extension Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Yeah, the IC dread is tougher, but it is also more expensive, still a melee only unit with only a 6 inch move, and completely lack a decent delivery system with the loss of the drop pod (which is WAY to expensive now anyway). These two things shelved my ironclad drop pod list. Well, that and I can no longer run enough of them due to no support atm for my army.

 NorseSig wrote:
I would say drop pods and by extension Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Yeah, the IC dread is tougher, but it is also more expensive, still a melee only unit with only a 6 inch move, and completely lack a decent delivery system with the loss of the drop pod (which is WAY to expensive now anyway). These two things shelved my ironclad drop pod list. Well, that and I can no longer run enough of them due to no support atm for my army.

I disagree, I think Ironclads with Chainfists are awesome.

Going from T7 to T8 is massive, and while it's somewhat slow, advancing over the table doesn't take that long.
Having S12, AP4 and D4 with its 4 attacks, hitting on 3's rerolling 1's means every multiwound model around (especially larger things like monsters and vehicles) is terrified of it.
Adding 2 Heavy Flamers is expensive, but it helps negate it's one weakness (except being expensive), which is dealing with hordes.

When I want to add Dreadnaughts to my SM-lists, the Ironclad is the first one to enter the party.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 fwlr wrote:
Exalted sorcerors, Ahriman (they are our hqs and are useless when you have Magnus around.

I thought TS players were saying Ahriman was pretty good? He's a fast moving psyker that can cast 3 spells with a +1 to cast, isn't too shabby in cc (for a sorceror) and, unlike Magnus, you can hide him from enemy fire.

Ahriman and Magnus are both great, but they're terrible together. You run one, but not both, because otherwise you're wasting their casting which is their primary strength.

No one has tried Sun Shark spam yet? Conscripts begone!

I've been thinking about the Skyray and am not sure that it's as bad as people are saying. Assuming the full complement of markerlights, it's an almost guaranteed 6 wounds off of any target (97% chance per). Formerly the maximum chance was a 68% of taking off a wound or hull point in the best of circumstances. Of course, a lot of things have more wounds, but this means that you know pretty much exactly how much damage it's going to do to a target and don't have to waste shots. This target has 2 wounds left, for instance -- I fire 2 missiles at it.

Alcibiades wrote:
No one has tried Sun Shark spam yet? Conscripts begone!

It's only one unit per turn, and 4+ vs infantry, so half the unit. You can't kill enough Conscripts. Pretty good for bombing Space Marines though.

Every demon unit that can't shoot/smite and isn't a horror. "hey bud.. Take your t3 ass and run 25+" with a 5++. You got this!!"

Seriously, the points cost for things like fleshhounds are insane considering they can't Deepstrike or shoot. I've officially shelved my 8k of demons (mainly khorne).

 MinscS2 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:
I would say drop pods and by extension Ironclad Dreadnoughts. Yeah, the IC dread is tougher, but it is also more expensive, still a melee only unit with only a 6 inch move, and completely lack a decent delivery system with the loss of the drop pod (which is WAY to expensive now anyway). These two things shelved my ironclad drop pod list. Well, that and I can no longer run enough of them due to no support atm for my army.

I disagree, I think Ironclads with Chainfists are awesome.

Going from T7 to T8 is massive, and while it's somewhat slow, advancing over the table doesn't take that long.
Having S12, AP4 and D4 with its 4 attacks, hitting on 3's rerolling 1's means every multiwound model around (especially larger things like monsters and vehicles) is terrified of it.
Adding 2 Heavy Flamers is expensive, but it helps negate it's one weakness (except being expensive), which is dealing with hordes.

When I want to add Dreadnaughts to my SM-lists, the Ironclad is the first one to enter the party.

I normally play on a bigger than normal table 6ftx8ft. A 6in move is just not enough.

 Zewrath wrote:

... or if you take Pask as warlord and give him warlord trait that reroll 1's. He will have 7-8 hits on average with plasma and wound 5-6 of those. He will save 1-2 and take 2 damage each. Already we have 8 damage. This is before las canon.
Go ahead and try, I regularly 1 shot vehicles and big monsters with him.

I already tried it. Rolled the dice, repeatedly. With and without rerolling 1s.
So we have 1 supercharged executioner plasma and 2 supercharged regular plasma cannons, shooting stationary and rerolling 1s to hit (Pask doesn't get a movement penalty for his turret, but he does for the sponsons so let's just say all stationary) vs a T8 3+ save target... for an average of 6.07 damage per round. That's the average. You say you've had better results, but those are what we gamers refer to as "outliers".

No idea how you're getting an average of 5-6 wounds from 7-8 hits when you have a 50% chance to wound per hit. Those are some amazing dice you have there.

I don't know what you're talking about with "warlord traits", the only warlord traits that currently exist are on p186 of the rulebook. There's nothing about rerolling 1s for shooting on that page. Are you referring to Pask's tank orders?

Note that I'm not defending the tervigon. It still isn't worth using. But the chances of Pask inflicting 14 wounds on a T8, 3+ model with 3 plasma and a lascannon are around 2% if we're generous. If he doesn't move and isn't damaged.

Fhanados wrote:
Possessed Marines: D3 attacks? Really? Looks like they're taking a back seat to Berzerkers for another 10 years

Possessed can take advantage of daemon allies.
If there is a nearby DP, they are rerolling 1s to hit.
If there is a daemon herald nearby, they are +1 STR
If there is a greater deaemon nearby, they get to roll on the greater daemons LD.
If they are Tzeentch, and within 9" of the changling, they are -1 to be hit.
If they are Nurgle, they can take advantage of Epidemius' tally (which gets really, really good)
If they are Slaanesh, you can cast Warptime and Hysterical Frenzy on them.
At STR 6, possessed start wounding guard on a 2+, and T6 vehicles on a 4+.

All that said....bezerkers are still better. The fact that bezerkers get effectivly four STR 6, -1 ap attacks a turn for only 17 points is kind of a no-brainer.
If possessed were the same cost as bezerkers, they might be taken for their greater move and invuln save.

From the couple of games I have managed to get in so far:

Necron Monolith; costs a lot and doesn't seem to do that much damage. 4+ BS which quickly degrades with damage, and particle whip going from a large pie-plate to D3 shots.

Destroyers of all types seem surprisingly expensive

Daemons: on Daemon Princes, Axes and Swords are massively expensive and not as good as talons. Shame I modelled axes and swords on all my daemon princes since they used to have a purpose.

Necron Monolith is finally good. You can now use all 5 ranged attacks against a single target, for impressive volumes of fire.

Not to mention the portal inflicts mortal wounds against assaulting units. The other night I had a monolith dispatch a charging marine unit between snap fire and mortal wounds inflicted.

 NorseSig wrote:


I normally play on a bigger than normal table 6ftx8ft. A 6in move is just not enough.

There's your problem. The game is made for a 4x6 at 2k points. Either play more points or use a smaller table.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:


I normally play on a bigger than normal table 6ftx8ft. A 6in move is just not enough.

There's your problem. The game is made for a 4x6 at 2k points. Either play more points or use a smaller table.

That's a massive table. GW can't really balance the game around your massive table, Daedalus.

 Purifier wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:


I normally play on a bigger than normal table 6ftx8ft. A 6in move is just not enough.

There's your problem. The game is made for a 4x6 at 2k points. Either play more points or use a smaller table.

That's a massive table. GW can't really balance the game around your massive table, Daedalus.

Other guy - not me!

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Purifier wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:


I normally play on a bigger than normal table 6ftx8ft. A 6in move is just not enough.

There's your problem. The game is made for a 4x6 at 2k points. Either play more points or use a smaller table.

That's a massive table. GW can't really balance the game around your massive table, Daedalus.

Other guy - not me!

I even said the name to make sure it was understood that I was talking one quote up, and yet I picked the wrong name.